what is your opinion of the fence/wall/barrier that Isreal is building around itself?

[BrothaBill]

This is thread is pointless, its a 2000 year old blood feud. It'll never end...the wall just protects israelis from terrorists. Its up to the palestian people to rid their culture/society of this cancer. Set up an effective govt then when they are not such a failed state and govern effectively then tear down the wall. The wall is just a simple solution to a complex issue.

 

[GoldenDelicious]

Re: what is your opinion of the fence/wall/barrier that Isreal is building around its

GD, I tried to talk with you and got an argument. I wonder how much peace a country filled with people like you would have...

This is not about ripping someones asshole wider to me, it is about having a conversation. Your point of views do interest me, just not the way you put them forward, and not when obviously you do not try to understand what I mean.

a whole country full of people like me? damn. i couldnt put up with that sort of competition out on the nightclub scene. dont mention that again.

although you seem to imply that my argumentative nature would mean a country full of people like me wouldnt be peaceful - on the contrary, it would be very much so. an america full of people like me would mean that the iraq war wouldnt have happened, that bush wouldnt have been reeleceted - hell, taht there would have been a decent candidate in the first place - and that israeli support just wouldnt be happening. my position on the need for the state of israel is clear - theres no real need for it. if the jews are such clever, money making little mofos, let them nicely make money where tehy are and not stir up shit half the world over.

i get the feeling, though, that the reason you think that i "do not try to understand" you stems from your inability to perceive that i have good insight into your character, and furthermore, that the phrase "try to understand me", when said by people such as yourself, is really a prelude to repetition of previous sentiments with the purpose of trying to brainwash the listener.

I did try to understand you. i think i DO understand you. i DO understand your point of view as a moderate in your country. i DO understand the position israel finds itself in...i just think that israel as a country is in the wrong; that its leaders have pursued inhumane, brutal, and unfair policies against the palestinians; that many israelis are suffering from the mistakes of their leadership - mistakes which, amongst other things - have brought down the middle easts ire upon the israeli public...and deservedly so.

a piece of advice for you - if you are want to discuss controversial issues in public, do not be so offended when people not only dont tolerate you, but dont buy into your bullshit.

if you want things to change get off your arse and pressure your government to start acting like human beings. until you can say that you ahve actively and outspokenly opposed what your country has done, dont expect me to sit here mute while you spit biased crap at me.

 

[Allon]

Whatever GD, you are the big judge.

If you are talking about the leadership then I agree with you, no-one in Israel likes the leadership.

However the palestinian leadership is ok? hmmm. I think they have more human rights issues to solve within their own leadership then we do.

You are so biased and one sided here. I continually agree with you about certain facts pertaining to Israels issues and you do not agree once that the palestinians have issues and could do something to. As far as you are concrened, it would seem they are all angels.

You like to argue, that's fine.

 

[BrothaBill]

Dang, now thats a rant. One thing is for certain, Israel is there to stay regardless of US policy towards it. They have an incredible military and if anyone is going to invade Iran its going to be the Israelis whether we like it or not. Only thing thats going to damage Israel is a nuke, thats why this whole iran nuke weapons program better be handled soon.

 

[Allon]

Israel will not let it happen in my opinion. (Iran Nukes)

 

[BrothaBill]

Israel will not let it happen in my opinion. (Iran Nukes)

No way, In fact, I was watching Don Imus this morning chatting with Dick Cheney and was questioned about us invading Iran cuz of that recent story. He was like we'll take to the security council, sanctions,etc... He was like the big concern is whether Israel was going to take action on its own and let the world pick up the pieces. Israel is SUCH a wildcard.

 

[Hengst]

I know that it can look that way. I myself see it this way also, but it is not so clear cut. Israel is not so racist as it is nationalist.
It is a security thing, more than a race thing.
The results and current situation are disgusting, beleive me, we are not blind to this. But I do not think the finger can be pointed soley at us.

Unfortunaltely, all Jewish people in Israel know that we will die if we lose our upper hand here. Hence the paranoia and self justification and the "mindset".

I really wish the palestinians weren't going through all this, but for any country in the area to say it is because of Israel is childish. It means to us that either they (other countries in area or any country individual for that matter) are not seeing what is so clear, and that is Israel's point of view and instinct of survival, or that they are using the palestinians to cause issues as they know we will never give them right of return or more than 75-90% of the west bank. Which in my opinion even 100% of the west bank is not suitable amount of land for a proper country.

So, basically, you advocate the seperation of the israelis and the palestinians for security reasons. E.g. it is not safe for israelis to live amidst the palestinians, therefore it is necessary to create walls, fences and restrictions on the movements of the palestinians for the continued survival and safety of the israelis, their society and culture.

I agree, BUT, if it is valid for you then would you say that any group of people in a threatening situation should have the same rights of seperation? What if this minority group were white, european decendant christians?

 

[Allon]

So, basically, you advocate the seperation of the israelis and the palestinians for security reasons. E.g. it is not safe for israelis to live amidst the palestinians, therefore it is necessary to create walls, fences and restrictions on the movements of the palestinians for the continued survival and safety of the israelis, their society and culture.

I agree, BUT, if it is valid for you then would you say that any group of people in a threatening situation should have the same rights of seperation? What if this minority group were white, european decendant christians?

Why would you think I have a problem with white christians?

If such a group had to secure itself I would have no problem with it.

I do on the other hand COMPLETELY understand and respect that people would be suspicious of Israel in this situation. I am just giving my 2 cents on the way I see the issue, and my explanation (from living here) on how we see it and why I think the way things are the way they are.
You could say I am justifying Israel in a way, but I am not trying to justify any wrongdoings at all. I am however trying to put forward exactly what the wrongdoings are and are not.

Israels faults:
Trigger happy soldiers
Non peacefull Israeli's who do not even try to see the palestinians side of it. Coz these Israeli's are ignorant IMHO
Certain policies of army and government, like they hit us, we hit back, really stupid.
Building the WALL through palestinians land without compensating them at least, or just not doing it.
SETTLERS, let me shoot em myself!

Palestines faults:
Advocating your own society to commit suicide attacks.
Not ever pointing the finger at Jordan, egypt or the palestinian leadership.
The total lack of free speech.
The Palestinian leadership are not using funds they have for their own people.
The Palestinian leadership do not let palestinians leave and immigrate to other countries when those countries offer. For example Canada offered to take in a few thousand palestinians a few years ago and Arafat refused.


The list goes on for both sides, but you get the idea.

 

[GoldenDelicious]

Re: what is your opinion of the fence/wall/barrier that Isreal is building around its

Whatever GD, you are the big judge.

only below the waist

your comment is telling, though - youre dismissive, and sarcastic, which imo is juvenile

If you are talking about the leadership then I agree with you, no-one in Israel likes the leadership.

sooooooo...who voted for them? and who shrugs their shoulders when they do waht they do in palestine?

However the palestinian leadership is ok? hmmm. I think they have more human rights issues to solve within their own leadership then we do.

irrelevant. the failings of the palestinians do not excuse israeli behavious, especially when so much points to the israelis being the agressor

You are so biased and one sided here. I continually agree with you about certain facts pertaining to Israels issues and you do not agree once that the palestinians have issues and could do something to. As far as you are concrened, it would seem they are all angels.

actually, i didnt say too much about the palestinians, but i do not think that they are angels - but i think that they are being reactive, while israel is instigative, which means everything when it coumes to assigning blame

You like to argue, that's fine.

yeah, i kinda do

 

[Allon]

GD, I agree with you on so many points which you fail to see, but I really don't enjoy talking with you. I keep answering you though, I must be stupid.