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What ARE CHIROPRACTORS??
- Thread starter Kakdiesel
- Start date
rudedawg
New member
How Quackery Sells
William T. Jarvis, Ph.D.
Stephen Barrett, M.D.
Modern health quacks are supersalesmen. They play on fear. They cater to hope. And once they have you, they'll keep you coming back for more . . . and more . . . and more. Seldom do their victims realize how often or how skillfully they are cheated. Does the mother who feels good as she hands her child a vitamin think to ask herself whether he really needs it? Do subscribers to "health food" publications realize that articles are slanted to stimulate business for their advertisers? Not usually.
Most people think that quackery is easy to spot. Often it is not. Its promoters wear the cloak of science. They use scientific terms and quote (or misquote) scientific references. Talk show hosts may refer to them as experts or as "scientists ahead of their time." The very word "quack" helps their camouflage by making us think of an outlandish character selling snake oil from the back of a covered wagon -- and, of course, no intelligent people would buy snake oil nowadays, would they?
Excerpt from this page:
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/quacksell.html
I have seen a guy cure everything by praying to God and whacking the person on the forehead. Amazing stuff.
Kak what is your definition of "subluxation" and can they be seen in an x-ray? Could you also list the diseases or general health problems that spinal manipulation can cure?
This is fucking classic right here:
The quack pays more attention to the person than to the ailment, seeking to convince the patient that the treatment is necessary. A dose of fright can be an effective persuader. Ralph Lee Smith, in his book At Your Own Risk, tells of infiltrating a school run by a Texas chiropractor aimed at teaching other chiropractors how to increase their incomes. "If the patient has a pain in his left shoulder," the professor said, his pupils should ask, "Has the pain started in your right shoulder yet?" [The so-called "Yet Disease."]
William T. Jarvis, Ph.D.
Stephen Barrett, M.D.
Modern health quacks are supersalesmen. They play on fear. They cater to hope. And once they have you, they'll keep you coming back for more . . . and more . . . and more. Seldom do their victims realize how often or how skillfully they are cheated. Does the mother who feels good as she hands her child a vitamin think to ask herself whether he really needs it? Do subscribers to "health food" publications realize that articles are slanted to stimulate business for their advertisers? Not usually.
Most people think that quackery is easy to spot. Often it is not. Its promoters wear the cloak of science. They use scientific terms and quote (or misquote) scientific references. Talk show hosts may refer to them as experts or as "scientists ahead of their time." The very word "quack" helps their camouflage by making us think of an outlandish character selling snake oil from the back of a covered wagon -- and, of course, no intelligent people would buy snake oil nowadays, would they?
Excerpt from this page:
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/quacksell.html
I have seen a guy cure everything by praying to God and whacking the person on the forehead. Amazing stuff.
Kak what is your definition of "subluxation" and can they be seen in an x-ray? Could you also list the diseases or general health problems that spinal manipulation can cure?
This is fucking classic right here:
The quack pays more attention to the person than to the ailment, seeking to convince the patient that the treatment is necessary. A dose of fright can be an effective persuader. Ralph Lee Smith, in his book At Your Own Risk, tells of infiltrating a school run by a Texas chiropractor aimed at teaching other chiropractors how to increase their incomes. "If the patient has a pain in his left shoulder," the professor said, his pupils should ask, "Has the pain started in your right shoulder yet?" [The so-called "Yet Disease."]
rudedawg
New member
Damn......sucks to be this kid and his family...... but I'll bet it could have been avoided if the kid would have gone to the chiro long before that way the benign spinal cord tumor called a ganglioglioma wouldn't have even happened. Manipulations would have saved the day......instead of ruining his life.
http://www.chirobase.org/08Legal/turner.html
http://www.chirobase.org/08Legal/turner.html
rudedawg
New member
Oh this guy is a "CLASSIC":
http://www.chirobase.org/14Misc/wtc.html
Eric Plasker, D.C., a Life University graduate who practices in Marietta, Georgia, is an aggressive promoter of subluxation-based chiropractic. For several years, he has been marketing practice-building programs geared toward persuading people to have periodic checkups and spinal adjustments throughout life. Plasker asserts that "everyone on this planet should have access to chiropractic from the time they are born until the time they draw their last breath!" [1] He opposes childhood immunization and links from his Web site to a major anti-immunization site.
A few years ago, Plasker founded the Traumatic Brain Syndrome Research Foundation to investigate his contention that "traumatic birth may result in vertebral subluxation in the newborn." He has expressed the hope that the foundation can establish protocols and develop research that would "attract a new level of attention to correcting vertebral subluxations in children." He also founded the Chiropractic Mothers Morning Out™ program, which uses "an army" of mothers and mothers-to-be to spread the word. According to a 1998 ad, his first three programs produced "46 committed, lifetime new patients and an extra $31,000." Plasker also suggests that his program can enable chiropractors to "turn every new patient you get into a Chiropractic Family for life" [2]
His Web site states: "Are you tired and frustrated with screening hundreds of people to get only three committed new patients? . . . The Family Practice Marketing System includes contemporary, turnkey health programs that have efficiently generated hundreds of thousands of committed new patients for DC's around the world."
LMFAO at this part
Within two days after the September 11th terrorist attack, Plasker published a strategy for chiropractors to promote their services as part of the public response. His Web site suggests: In the wake of the recent tragedy that has rocked the security of America and its citizens, it is our obligation as chiropractors and leaders in family health care to help initiate, contribute to and lead the healing of our country by making a commitment to laying our hands on as many people as possible in the coming days. By placing your caring and compassionate hands on people's spines and delivering chiropractic care from your heart with love, you will be helping individuals and our nation heal. Begin the process today with some of these helpful tools.
Speaking of tools....... What A fucking TOOL
http://www.chirobase.org/14Misc/wtc.html
Eric Plasker, D.C., a Life University graduate who practices in Marietta, Georgia, is an aggressive promoter of subluxation-based chiropractic. For several years, he has been marketing practice-building programs geared toward persuading people to have periodic checkups and spinal adjustments throughout life. Plasker asserts that "everyone on this planet should have access to chiropractic from the time they are born until the time they draw their last breath!" [1] He opposes childhood immunization and links from his Web site to a major anti-immunization site.
A few years ago, Plasker founded the Traumatic Brain Syndrome Research Foundation to investigate his contention that "traumatic birth may result in vertebral subluxation in the newborn." He has expressed the hope that the foundation can establish protocols and develop research that would "attract a new level of attention to correcting vertebral subluxations in children." He also founded the Chiropractic Mothers Morning Out™ program, which uses "an army" of mothers and mothers-to-be to spread the word. According to a 1998 ad, his first three programs produced "46 committed, lifetime new patients and an extra $31,000." Plasker also suggests that his program can enable chiropractors to "turn every new patient you get into a Chiropractic Family for life" [2]
His Web site states: "Are you tired and frustrated with screening hundreds of people to get only three committed new patients? . . . The Family Practice Marketing System includes contemporary, turnkey health programs that have efficiently generated hundreds of thousands of committed new patients for DC's around the world."
LMFAO at this part
Within two days after the September 11th terrorist attack, Plasker published a strategy for chiropractors to promote their services as part of the public response. His Web site suggests: In the wake of the recent tragedy that has rocked the security of America and its citizens, it is our obligation as chiropractors and leaders in family health care to help initiate, contribute to and lead the healing of our country by making a commitment to laying our hands on as many people as possible in the coming days. By placing your caring and compassionate hands on people's spines and delivering chiropractic care from your heart with love, you will be helping individuals and our nation heal. Begin the process today with some of these helpful tools.
Speaking of tools....... What A fucking TOOL
rudedawg
New member
Sorry but this shit is amazing:
Ear Infections
In 1994, ABC's "20/20" reported on visits to 17 chiropractors who had made it known through advertising or other means that they treated children. In one segment, an infant named Blake was taken by his mother to nine chiropractors in the New York metropolitan area, accompanied by a "friend" who was carrying a hidden camera. Blake had had recurring ear infections, a problem that a pediatrician said could be managed with antibiotics and would eventually be outgrown. Every chiropractor found a problem, and all said they could help and recommended care ranging from several weeks to a lifetime. The first found "a misalignment between the second and third bones in his neck." The second said it was "on the right side of his neck between the first and second bones." The third, using muscle-testing, found "weakness in the adrenal glands." The fourth said there was a subluxation because one of Blake's legs was shorter than the other. The fifth claimed he could diagnose the boy's problem by pulling on his mother's arm while she touched the boy on the shoulder. The sixth chiropractor did a similar test by pulling on the mother's legs while Blake lay on top of her back. After diagnosing "jamming of the occiput (the back bone of the skull)," the chiropractor said he corrected it by "lifting" Blake's occiput with his thumbs. He also said: (a) Blake needed work on his immune system, (b) learning disorder might be a problem, (c) both mother and son had "eyes that don't team too well," and (d) the cameraman, whom the chiropractor incorrectly assumed was the boy's father, had the same eye problem.
The same program also reported on visits to eight Wisconsin chiropractors by a five-year-old boy with chronic ear infections so severe that medical doctors wanted to insert tubes in his ears to drain them. All eight chiropractors found problems, but not usually the same ones. One diagnosed a pinched nerve in the boy's neck. Another said his left leg was shorter than his right. Another said his right leg was shorter than his left. Another diagnosed zinc deficiency. Another chiropractor blamed the boy's ear problems on "food sensitivities" and advised avoiding corn, cow's milk, and white flour. Another gave similar dietary advice but said that the main diagnosis was a "subluxation" in the top vertebra. Another said the boy didn't have an ear problem but had scoliosis -- a diagnosis disputed by a pediatrician and a radiologist who reviewed this chiropractor's findings.
In 2001, the Canadian Web site Canoe.ca sponsored a study in which a healthy 11-year-old girl named was taken to five Toronto-area chiropractors for a check-up. The chiropractors were told: (a) the girl was generally in good health, but suffered a few earaches, some mild headaches, and a few signs of allergy symptoms; and (b) the child's mother was worried about the possibility of asthma and had heard from neighbors that chiropractic care could benefit children. Four of the five chiropractors said the girl had spinal misalignments that were affecting her health, but they diagnosed different misalignments and different health problems. Among other things, they found one shoulder lower than the other, one leg longer than the other, one hip higher than the other, one ear lower than the other, something called "anterior head carriage", scoliosis, or curvature of the spine, early osteoarthritis, and subluxations in the upper, middle and lower back, but not necessarily in the same vertebrae.
Ear Infections
In 1994, ABC's "20/20" reported on visits to 17 chiropractors who had made it known through advertising or other means that they treated children. In one segment, an infant named Blake was taken by his mother to nine chiropractors in the New York metropolitan area, accompanied by a "friend" who was carrying a hidden camera. Blake had had recurring ear infections, a problem that a pediatrician said could be managed with antibiotics and would eventually be outgrown. Every chiropractor found a problem, and all said they could help and recommended care ranging from several weeks to a lifetime. The first found "a misalignment between the second and third bones in his neck." The second said it was "on the right side of his neck between the first and second bones." The third, using muscle-testing, found "weakness in the adrenal glands." The fourth said there was a subluxation because one of Blake's legs was shorter than the other. The fifth claimed he could diagnose the boy's problem by pulling on his mother's arm while she touched the boy on the shoulder. The sixth chiropractor did a similar test by pulling on the mother's legs while Blake lay on top of her back. After diagnosing "jamming of the occiput (the back bone of the skull)," the chiropractor said he corrected it by "lifting" Blake's occiput with his thumbs. He also said: (a) Blake needed work on his immune system, (b) learning disorder might be a problem, (c) both mother and son had "eyes that don't team too well," and (d) the cameraman, whom the chiropractor incorrectly assumed was the boy's father, had the same eye problem.
The same program also reported on visits to eight Wisconsin chiropractors by a five-year-old boy with chronic ear infections so severe that medical doctors wanted to insert tubes in his ears to drain them. All eight chiropractors found problems, but not usually the same ones. One diagnosed a pinched nerve in the boy's neck. Another said his left leg was shorter than his right. Another said his right leg was shorter than his left. Another diagnosed zinc deficiency. Another chiropractor blamed the boy's ear problems on "food sensitivities" and advised avoiding corn, cow's milk, and white flour. Another gave similar dietary advice but said that the main diagnosis was a "subluxation" in the top vertebra. Another said the boy didn't have an ear problem but had scoliosis -- a diagnosis disputed by a pediatrician and a radiologist who reviewed this chiropractor's findings.
In 2001, the Canadian Web site Canoe.ca sponsored a study in which a healthy 11-year-old girl named was taken to five Toronto-area chiropractors for a check-up. The chiropractors were told: (a) the girl was generally in good health, but suffered a few earaches, some mild headaches, and a few signs of allergy symptoms; and (b) the child's mother was worried about the possibility of asthma and had heard from neighbors that chiropractic care could benefit children. Four of the five chiropractors said the girl had spinal misalignments that were affecting her health, but they diagnosed different misalignments and different health problems. Among other things, they found one shoulder lower than the other, one leg longer than the other, one hip higher than the other, one ear lower than the other, something called "anterior head carriage", scoliosis, or curvature of the spine, early osteoarthritis, and subluxations in the upper, middle and lower back, but not necessarily in the same vertebrae.
rudedawg
New member
I think this backs up MatttheSkywalker's post:
http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/adm.html
Chiropractic Admission Standands
Lowest among Health Professionals
Stephen Barrett, M.D.
A survey comparing U.S. chiropractic colleges with five other types of professional schools has found that chiropractic schools had the lowest standards. Publications and telephone inquiries were used to compile information on (a) the percentage of the previous year's entering class with a bachelor's degree, (a) the minimum grade point average (GPA) required for admission, and (c) the average GPA of the previous year's enrollees. The researchers noted that although the degree of undergraduate success may reflect the potential for professional success, further research would be needed to confirm this. The study found:
Type and Number
of Schools
% with
Bachelor's Degree
Avg. Minimum
GPA Required
Avg. GPA of Enrollees
Medical (17)
99.35%
3.16
3.56
Optometry (16)
76.88%
2.55
3.30
Osteopathic (16)
97.00%
2.68
3.26
Dental (15)
66.87%
2.79
3.13
Podiatry (7)
89.40%
2.76
3.06
Chiropractic (16)
42.25%
2.38
2.90
Reference
Doxey TT, Phillips RB. Comparison of entrance requirements for health care professions. Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics 20:86-91, 1997.
http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/adm.html
Chiropractic Admission Standands
Lowest among Health Professionals
Stephen Barrett, M.D.
A survey comparing U.S. chiropractic colleges with five other types of professional schools has found that chiropractic schools had the lowest standards. Publications and telephone inquiries were used to compile information on (a) the percentage of the previous year's entering class with a bachelor's degree, (a) the minimum grade point average (GPA) required for admission, and (c) the average GPA of the previous year's enrollees. The researchers noted that although the degree of undergraduate success may reflect the potential for professional success, further research would be needed to confirm this. The study found:
Type and Number
of Schools
% with
Bachelor's Degree
Avg. Minimum
GPA Required
Avg. GPA of Enrollees
Medical (17)
99.35%
3.16
3.56
Optometry (16)
76.88%
2.55
3.30
Osteopathic (16)
97.00%
2.68
3.26
Dental (15)
66.87%
2.79
3.13
Podiatry (7)
89.40%
2.76
3.06
Chiropractic (16)
42.25%
2.38
2.90
Reference
Doxey TT, Phillips RB. Comparison of entrance requirements for health care professions. Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics 20:86-91, 1997.
That's a lot of work to find a few negative outcomes.
You're quoting from Steven Barrett and the Quackwatch gang. Have you ever seen a debate in which Steven Barrett was involved? If not, you should check one out. His very first televised debate against a chiropractor was an embarrassment for him. Since then he will only do debates at the location of his choice with the opponent of his choice. He is a very angry and bitter man regarding chiropractors. I don't know the source for his contempt, but it most certainly does not reflect the opinions of the medical community as a whole. Dr. Barrett himself is a psychiatrist...and Lord knows that profession has gotten a lot of flack over the years. I certainly hope it's a transferrence.
A review of the quackwatch database shows one major commonality: anything that is not supportive of western medicine or may not be easily quantifiable is attacked in detail.
Keep this in mind regarding chiropractors: statistical averages are the driving force behind malpractice insurance rates for physicians. Chiropractors pay the least of all physicians. The stats don't lie. It's not hard to find negative information on just about any profession. Most people don't really care about the minutiae. People care about getting results.
The practice management seminar you are referring to by Eric Plasker...have you seen some of the seminars offered to medical doctors and physical therapists? Interesting that chiropractors are catching the heat when other specialties have the exact same thing.
I don't fault anyone for not liking chiropractors...I don't like about half of them myself! I generally find them to be people who are difficult to work with who will do just about anything to undermine their competition. However, I love what I do. A job or career should be that way. If chiropractic did not get results or if it was, in fact, a threat to the public, folks like Quackwatch would have uncovered it by now. It would have already been big news via media sensation.
Anyway, keep in mind that hearing the extremes of two sides of any debate is important, but perhaps it's just as important to hear from the middle grounders like myself.
You're quoting from Steven Barrett and the Quackwatch gang. Have you ever seen a debate in which Steven Barrett was involved? If not, you should check one out. His very first televised debate against a chiropractor was an embarrassment for him. Since then he will only do debates at the location of his choice with the opponent of his choice. He is a very angry and bitter man regarding chiropractors. I don't know the source for his contempt, but it most certainly does not reflect the opinions of the medical community as a whole. Dr. Barrett himself is a psychiatrist...and Lord knows that profession has gotten a lot of flack over the years. I certainly hope it's a transferrence.
A review of the quackwatch database shows one major commonality: anything that is not supportive of western medicine or may not be easily quantifiable is attacked in detail.
Keep this in mind regarding chiropractors: statistical averages are the driving force behind malpractice insurance rates for physicians. Chiropractors pay the least of all physicians. The stats don't lie. It's not hard to find negative information on just about any profession. Most people don't really care about the minutiae. People care about getting results.
The practice management seminar you are referring to by Eric Plasker...have you seen some of the seminars offered to medical doctors and physical therapists? Interesting that chiropractors are catching the heat when other specialties have the exact same thing.
I don't fault anyone for not liking chiropractors...I don't like about half of them myself! I generally find them to be people who are difficult to work with who will do just about anything to undermine their competition. However, I love what I do. A job or career should be that way. If chiropractic did not get results or if it was, in fact, a threat to the public, folks like Quackwatch would have uncovered it by now. It would have already been big news via media sensation.
Anyway, keep in mind that hearing the extremes of two sides of any debate is important, but perhaps it's just as important to hear from the middle grounders like myself.
Kakdiesel said:
no you are missing the point. how can a chiropracter diagnose something a doctor might have trouble with? therefroe go see a doctor first, let him recommend treatment, if necessary take it then go see a chiropracter! (the 'if necessary bnit is because if its back pain, pain meds arent life or death, where as antibiotics might be)
chiro should not be the mainstay of medical treatment purely because it cannot treat as wide a range of conditions as conventional medicine. it is however v.useful as a complementary therapy. thats what i am saying. its aiming too high
Kakdiesel said:
and who makes that call? the chiropracter? does he have enough trining to know the difference between what might be an infectuion or might be a tumour?
Kakdiesel said:
i have no confusion about this. you however are suggesting that chiro be the first port of call- it shouldnt
you are suggesting that vaccinations and medications are poisons and in place to make $$ for drug companies. they arent (always)
chiro may very well exhibit health benefits if done regularly, i NEVER disputed this. however when you start dishing out incorrect health advice, then you are becoming a problem
Kakdiesel said:
hmm.....so child shouldnt recieve an immunisaton program?
i dont deny that you dude posses a HUGE amount of knowledge. but....you should not be seen first because of potetnially harmful advice you may be giving to patients, and PREVENTING them from seeking more effective treatments
Kakdiesel said:
yes, a multi disciplinary team is a ery good thing. the dctor diagnoses, the chiropracter says he may be able to help, the doctor agrees, no conflicting adivice is given out.
so do all chiropracters work in these teams. no.
), a second herb the side effects of the first/the problem, a third the side effects of the second etcKakdiesel said:
dan,
I guess I'm busted. You got me.
I'll be in Atlanta this weekend and if you would like to discuss the merits of chirpractors. Look for em
I figure, like most doctors, you're slaves to insurance carriers. Have fun with it.
Burning_Inside
Elite Mentor
well i went to a chiro' for about 4 years maybe because i hurt my back when i was younger. I can honestly say that they may have relieved the pain somewhat, but they did nothing to fix anything. I really should have got an operation, but I didnt, they said i dont need it and over time the spine would be realligned. O well. I'll never go to one again. No point. I can crack my own neck and back now.
Kakdiesel
Banned
danielson said:
I guess I'll never be able to make you understand..which is fine..sometimes chiropractic is only something you must experience to believe in..
and no, the medical doctors are usually working FOR a chiropractor at HIS clinic..
And yes, we are trained to diagnose if scar tissue or some sort of tissue formation could be malignant and we refer to a dermatologist or medical doctor to get it checked out.
rudedawg
New member
BackDoc said:
Actually it was very simple........ I went to Google and typed in Chiropractor quacks.......and whalla......that site came up and from there I typed in Chiropractor in the search engine and all of the info came up.
Maybe the guy is very contempt but are the articles not true?
Me personally....... I don't give a shit if someone goes to a chiro or not. But I am certainly not going to let Kak (who has minimal experience at best) try to post as an expert. I personally don't go to nor have I ever nor will I ever (I doubt anyway) go to a chiro. We have friends that are chiro's that live 2 houses down from us, I have a few clients that are chiro's, and I do believe that they can help to some degree but maybe a massage would help just as much.
What about ART?
Kakdiesel
Banned
danielson said:
No chiropractic doesnt "treat" anything..i've stated this before..we DO NOT TREAT SIGNS OR SYMPTOMS!!!!!!!!!
We allow the body to heal itself and trust me, your innate power inside your body is a million times smarter than the most intelligent human being or doctor. Your body can treat a wider range of conditions than your medical doctor or medicine.
rudedawg
New member
Kakdiesel said:
Hey LIL Kacky........ no need to call me names.LMAO.....Ya you posted this for intelligent conversation huh? So why was your first post a cut and paste job of someone elses writing and opinions?
I guess there wasn't another chiro he could go to? Why wouldn't he go to another chiro before going to a "regular" doctor? You might go back and read my post and watch who ya call asshole?
Kakdiesel
Banned
rudedawg said:
Rudedawg, you illiterate..i've already responded to you..I said I never claimed to be a fuckin expert..i'm just bringing in topic of interesting discussion...you keep trying to make me out to be some punk about this, but if someone would go back and read this entire thread (every post) then you would be the one who looked like an idiot.
ANyways, Mr. OMNIPOTENT,
Sublixation - a condition of a vetebra in which it has lost its juxtaposition with the one above, below, or both to the extent less than a luxation which impinges nerves and intereres with the transmission of mental impulses.
yes you can see sublixation on a fuckin x ray.
Kakdiesel
Banned
rudedawg said:
Um, that post made no sense..why did I post someone else's writing and opinions? Um, its called quoting something and what does that have to do with whether or not this is an intelligent conversation or not?
And maybe the loss of a father would keep you away from that profession just because it would remind you of him ASSHOLE.
Kakdiesel
Banned
MAYBE OF SOME INTEREST
Came back from assembly today (we have weekly ones)
It was a presentation with speakers of the ICA (international chiropractic association) with the president of the ICA being our school's senior vice president as well.
Anyways, we watched a clip..and guess who was talking?
Yup..the great ARNOLD....
He was talking about how great ICA is and how chiropractic and I quote: "Is one of the greatest professions in the world that gives people health and true caring"
and if anybody went to the Arnold Classic I believe a year or two ago, we have him on film speaking (while giving away the awards) and saying he wanted to give a special mention to the chiropractors and ICA in the crowd for their continued support in maintaining and contributing to the health and fitness world.
thought it was pretty cool..wish i could get a copy of it and copy it onto my hard drive and post a downloadable file.
yes folks, Arnold is a advocate of chiropractic care...Full supporter...he understands and realizes all of its benefits..in the video he mentioned that while filming in Mexico in a tiny village, for his new movie COllateral Damage, his first question was whether or not there was a chiropractor around...thinking that there wouldnt be in such a small village, there was an american lady there who worked there in the village, providing charitable health and care for the locals. He said she worked for them on the set everyday and that she was the most valuable member of the crew.
Very inspiring and motivating to hear him talk about the profession and association like that..all without any pay or donations (if you're thinking the ICA donated or sponsored anything at the Arnold Classic--you're very wrong)
Came back from assembly today (we have weekly ones)
It was a presentation with speakers of the ICA (international chiropractic association) with the president of the ICA being our school's senior vice president as well.
Anyways, we watched a clip..and guess who was talking?
Yup..the great ARNOLD....
He was talking about how great ICA is and how chiropractic and I quote: "Is one of the greatest professions in the world that gives people health and true caring"
and if anybody went to the Arnold Classic I believe a year or two ago, we have him on film speaking (while giving away the awards) and saying he wanted to give a special mention to the chiropractors and ICA in the crowd for their continued support in maintaining and contributing to the health and fitness world.
thought it was pretty cool..wish i could get a copy of it and copy it onto my hard drive and post a downloadable file.
yes folks, Arnold is a advocate of chiropractic care...Full supporter...he understands and realizes all of its benefits..in the video he mentioned that while filming in Mexico in a tiny village, for his new movie COllateral Damage, his first question was whether or not there was a chiropractor around...thinking that there wouldnt be in such a small village, there was an american lady there who worked there in the village, providing charitable health and care for the locals. He said she worked for them on the set everyday and that she was the most valuable member of the crew.
Very inspiring and motivating to hear him talk about the profession and association like that..all without any pay or donations (if you're thinking the ICA donated or sponsored anything at the Arnold Classic--you're very wrong)
rudedawg
New member
Kakdiesel said:
Usually if you want to post something for a debate/intelligent convo then you might cut and paste but then maybe add some ideas/opinions of your own. How is that pussy, dick, dickhead, fucker, fuckhead, fucknut, dickcheese, ass wrangler, cum guzzler, dickwad, twat, cunt, shithead, mother fucker, poopy head, butt munch etc....... etc...........
See I can carry on your intelligent conversation.
Kakdiesel
Banned
BackDOC..i saw that debate you aer tallking about..
it was Dr. Barrett and Dr. Ian Grossman, D.C. that debated correct?
Dr. Grossman had those tinted glasses LOL...
and you're right, he talked circles around Dr. Barrett and made him look stupid..
And what was inspiring was listening to the audience members give testimonials about how chiropractic helped them..
it was Dr. Barrett and Dr. Ian Grossman, D.C. that debated correct?
Dr. Grossman had those tinted glasses LOL...
and you're right, he talked circles around Dr. Barrett and made him look stupid..
And what was inspiring was listening to the audience members give testimonials about how chiropractic helped them..
Kakdiesel
Banned
rudedawg said:
I think you're being a smart ass, insensitive prick rudedawg..the kid lost his father.....okay?
I dont want to cuss at you anymore rudedawg..
So i'll say this: You're just a bitter, has been major league pitcher...who likes to start crap with me on this board everytime I post. Dont try to stir it up with me and take it out on me just because you're mad about not making it in the big's..i understand you're pain..so i forgive you
rudedawg
New member
Kakdiesel said:
I think you're being a smart ass, insensitive prick rudedawg..the kid lost his father.....okay?
I dont want to cuss at you anymore rudedawg..
So i'll say this: You're just a bitter, has been major league pitcher...who likes to start crap with me on this board everytime I post. Dont try to stir it up with me and take it out on me just because you're mad about not making it in the big's..i understand you're pain..so i forgive you
He lost his father yes........ so he can't go to any other chiro but can go to a "regular" doc. Of course the "regular" doc wouldn't remind him of his father right? My guess is you are out making a bigger story than it actually is/was.
Fuck maybe you should be a psychiatrist instead of a chiropractor. You have nailed not only me but also MattTheSkywalker.........damn you are good boy?
LMAO...... Yep I am bitter about it that is why I talk about it so much. And the pain ohhhhhhhhhhh the pain is sooooooooo unbearable. How do I make it through the seconds/minutes/hours/days/weeks/months/years Ya years dumbfuck it has been 7 years since I played.....think about it.
Thanks for your forgiveness, you are such a fine BOY.
rudedawg
New member
Maybe youshould look at this definition:Kakdiesel said:
Omnipotent means all knowing...
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=omnipotent
om·nip·o·tent Pronunciation Key (m-np-tnt)
n.
1.) One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
rudedawg
New member
OUCH that hurt..... I so want to be an overgrown human that can't fit through a door and have striations in my ass and veins sticking out all over.Kakdiesel said:I stand corrected Mr. O....
as in Omnipotent, not Olympia..cuz i know thats not in your future...
God damn it you have really hurt me this time Kacky Lacky.
Toodles
Have fun by yourself on this wonderful day.
Kakdiesel said:
I'm not stating this to be wise but certainly if you have so much passion for chiro and believe that drugs should always be futher down the latter. After one has "helped themselves first" then why wouldn't someone "you" have that same way of thinking when it came to your own body. Meaning why have you used steroids when it is apparent to everyone "from your pictures" that you have not brought your body to it's peak performance so to speak. You are using drugs(medicine) before helping yourself aren't you. Cetainly you must think that there are things that a chiro can do to make the muscle grow and if there is, there is no possible way you have exhausted all of those principles before using steroids.
Kakdiesel said:
out of curiousity, what view do the team memebrs (i.e. the chiro dude and the docs) hold about vaccinations. poisoning the blood ill bet
tumours can be anywhere in the body. as can infections. dont you think a far safer route of treatmetn would be doctor-> chiropracter. this way things such as ear infection would not be treated by spinal realignments exclusivly, and if the patients WANTED to see a chiro desparately they could.
it comes down to this. chiropracters do not have the biochemical knowledge doctors do. if they did, they would NEVER scientfically think a vacine poisons the blood, considering how many pathogens our blood is exposed to on a regular basis during our lives. therefore they SHOULD not present themselves as an authority on the matter, as they are not if thats the only arguement they have against vaccinations.
thankfully the medical community will not embrace them until they stop spreading stone age views like this. if everyone listened to them we'd still have children dying in their thousands from childhood diseases. would you WILLINGLY expose a child to whooping cough? and not give any treatment other than chiro? its a famous childhood disease they even wrote a rhyme about it, 'ring a ring of posies' or something
im not denying it has clinical benefits, I NEVER have (unlike the chiropractioners who seem to think all drugs and vaccines are money spinners for the drug companies
)....but im saying that kind of scientific faith is only justified by careful medical research. which can be carried out by drug companies, charities, unicversities, private funding etc....my sceptcism on the ability of chiro to prevent heart disease in an obese man who shovels away 3 big mac meals every meal sitting is V.HIGH (as its never gonna happen).....and the only thing that will ever convince me is evidence on a wide basis. if you told me you could make me live forever by taking a magic pill should i believe you? by puporting chiro to be something it isnt and influincing patients to take unnecessary risk you put their lives AT risk
Kakdiesel said:
do you recognise there are diseases your body cannot fight off alone?
you wanna try and fight dengue fever off alone. how about yellow fever? japanese encephalitus? go for it.....travel to the orient and go wandering off in some jungle.
when your immune system is getting its ass whooped by the pathogen, try chiro....im willing to bet you'll be dead before your immune system ever fires up
ironic that if you had been immunised against these dieases,your immune system would lready have enough antibodies to fight off the disease with no drugs
there are some things in this workld your body cannot fight off. agreed there are MANY things it can, and its an amazing thing the human body. but their is a time for philosophy and a time for saving lives
chinese medicine believes the symptom is due to an imbalance i your body, and that iombalance is located somewhere possibly different to your syptom, so a sore throat might be a build up of yang in the liver and suitabletreatment is given to help unstagnate the qi in that reigon (i.e. herbs, acupuncture etc)....thereby allowing qi to flow and the body to HEAL ITSELF
you ask a chinese doctor whether he can heal a guy with dengue fever. answer 'ill try' result-no
can chinese medicine stop people getting infected and dying in certain cases - no
can chiro - no
can western medicne - in certain cases, yes. which is why a doctor and his staff are the most important health care providers and should be seen first, and not have patients minds 'polluted' by unscientific views presented as such
it could be viewed that chiropracters want no immunisations so they can get more ill people thru their doors? more money for them? its the same arguement about the drug companies...
Some of the articles on his site are based on nothing more than opinion. He does have a few hits, however, and for those correct statements, he has blown the whistle, as perhaps it should have been. It is certainly not an objective website, and is intended to elicit a certain mistrust of an entire profession by and large. However, even as he has a right to express his opinion concerning this matter, he actually does very little to back up his corroboration in many instances. Since there has been very little data to confirm every aspect of what every chiropractor does, it's difficult to argue with him on things that I believe him to be wrong, but that neither he nor I can quantify. Several times he has made mention of one particular technique only to give instances of that technique NOT done properly. Then he has gone on to say that all of those who practice that technique are quacks. That's not exactly correct, since it is not a fair representation of the particular technique. Remember, he's looking for an angle and he has an agenda, as is anyone with a bias and a strong opinion. In my view, those medical doctors who have a middle ground stance concerning chiropractic are often those who don't really feel threatened by chiropractic as a profession and may have seen successful cases. This often leaves them in at least a position of curiosity. In my view, when I get medical doctors as patients, when I sit down and explain to them in detail regarding the anatomy and physiology behind what it is that we are doing, then they usually seem to get the idea. Almost invariably, when I show them their x-ray and describe the anatomical uniqueness of their bones, they get impressed with what we "quacks" happen to know. Most of these medical doctors get relief and then refer patients to me rather frequently. This is not done as a professional courtesy, it is done because whether or not they actually understand (or even agree with me), they feel that I what I have to offer can benefit at least some people. Yes, I have had referrals of patients with systemic illnesses from the MD's in some cases. That does not say that we can cure anything by any means, it merely demonstrates that neither medicine nor chiropractic has all of the answers of the mysteries of the workings of the human body. When we know everything there is to know, then we'll know exactly what chiropractic can and cannot help.
Now for the difficult part, to play devil's advocate against myself (I like to be fair and up-front about everything I can, even at the sacrifice of exposing the weaknesses of my own arguments). It is not a good idea in the world of logic to argue against something that cannot be explained. For instance, it does not seem to be fair to say to someone who believes in God to say, "prove God exists, until then I know He absolutely cannot exist." Since that cannot be proven, it is an end statement which unfairly places the burden on the believer. So a common reply is "so if you say God does NOT exist, then prove that He does not!" As far as chiropractors go, what would have to be proved would be that the spinal corrections have the potential to make one healthy. Most people agree that chiropractors CAN provide relief for back pain in some circumstances, but have more problems accepting that the spinal nerves do any more than transmit pain. There has been very little research done to show that chiropractic care can help improve other aspects of health. It is not exactly fair to say to a chiropractic-doubter, "prove we don't make sick people well!". WE as chiropractors need to present the evidence that what we do has the potential to help in other ways. Until we as a profession stand up together and do the research instead of resting on our laurels, then we will always have Dr. Barrett's. I have seen some of the coming attractions in chiropractic research. What I can say at this point is that in a few more years the connections will start to be made. In particular, there is one study being undertaken right now comparing the lifespan of people adjusted since a young age to the national average. Another study is about to be presented showing that persons who get adjusted regularly tend to not have the age-related joint pains that often lead to loss of mobility (i.e., loss of mobility leading to nursing home institutionalization). Until then, when something shows evidence that chiropractors may have a positive life influence on patients, we have to weather the storm of public scrutiny.
Until such time, chiropractic is just ONE of many options for patients. The old adage that no matter who your doctor is you should trust them 100% is absolutely correct. If you don't really trust someone, you should find another. However, trust must be earned. It cannot be like an opinion that is formed from inductive or deductive reasoning without the vantage point of experience.
ART is a very good technique. It can help other troublesome cases of musculoskeletal lesions when other techniques fail. It is not the end-all, be-all by any means. Nor is any one particular technique or even practitioner. However, for sports related injuries it is very highly recommended. But bottom line, it IS a chiropractic technique.
That is a generalization, as well as an assumption. I know that you are specifically referring to chiropractors who do not embrace vaccinations to the same extent that most medical doctors do, but to say that chiropractors don't have biochemical knowledge is a statement that cannot be quantified. Personally, I'd comfortably compare my knowledge of human biochemistry as it relates to nutrition and physiology to another doctor, with the exception of a specialty of biochemical interaction specific to any particular specialty. Whether that can be quantified is not up for grabs. I can state this with at least some degree of certainty based on interactions with other doctors. What I do NOT have is an in-depth knowledge of drug interactions and the resulting pharmacodynamics related to such compounds. However, that does not mean that I am ignorant regarding biochemistry. It just means that I don't have a degree in medicinal use.
I'm not sure how that can be quantified either. Medicine does not seek to destroy us, or at least, most doctors don't seem to want to brush us under the rug or eradicate us. In fact, they are moving heavily toward absorbing the chiropractic adjustment into their own system. Doubtful that it will happen since it certainly takes considerable skill to get to the point that you can achieve results with patients in need of care. Medical doctors have precious little time on their hands as it is without trying to do our job for us. I had a medical doctor husband and wife who became patients of mine. They did not state outright that they were medical doctors. They went into the treatment room and watched while the other was being treated. A few weeks later, the wife came in with terrible back pain. I could not figure out why she was in such pain. So I quizzed her harder about what might have caused a relapse. As she was waiting for treatment, another patient leaving my office said, "Oh hi Dr. so and so!", giving them away. The husband admitted later that they watched what I did as closely as possible so that they could do it themselves at home, thereby avoiding the cost of my visit. His "treatment" resulted in her aggravation of pain. He told me that he had newfound respect for my skill, to which he compared to his own skill as a surgeon. He said never again would he try and do what I do. They are still regular patients.
Related to vaccinations, whether one chooses to vaccinate their own children is in my opinion up to them. Certainly my viewpoint is that tetanus and rabies are just about the most horrible death I can think of. For me, the risk outweighs the benefit. However, whether or not the DPT and it's boosters have enough benefit to offset the risk of injection complications is remarkably unclear in the current literature. But that does not mean that I frown on any other person who chooses to vaccinate with DPT. The argument stands to reason that if the only children not being vaccinated are the only ones at risk, then why would the vaccinated children be at risk at all? I wish I could find a study on the rates of illness and morbidity among non-vaccinated chiropractic kids in this country. That might be interesting. However, I do not express my views on other parents. It's up to them to do that. I certainly don't think it really belongs in my office discussions.
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BackDoc said:
i was. purely because anyone who thinks your blood is 'poisoned. by a vaccine and not when some commencal bacteria happens to enter your bloodstream is fooling themselves. i wasnt referring to all chiropracters....sorry
BackDoc said:
Medicine does not seek to destroy us, or at least, most doctors don't seem to want to brush us under the rug or eradicate us. [/QUOTE]
again, when i said stone age i wasnt referring to the whole field of chiropractery. just those who think immunisations dont do anything and can back it up by saying such and such aint been ill a day in his life
not referring to the whole proffession!
and yes....many vaccines are potentially dangerous, the DTP is probably the most ell known stateside, over here its MMR, and in africa probably yellow fever (not given to under 18's on account of it killing young uns
)but, this is not the reason that was submitted on this thread, and not every vaccine is as risky as the ones listed above. i was mainly concerned that the view of vaccines being some sort of evil 'pollutant' that are injected into you was what was being taught in colleges etc, obviously just by talking to you, it isnt. which is good!
i was just disagreeing with kakky's view that a chiropracticioner should see pateits first and decide whether he should see a doctor and make the call whether he should recieve chrio or see a doc. thats the core of my arguement. a doc should be seen first as there are some things chiro cant do (just as western medicine cant do) but kakky was inferrng it could (i.e. heal body organs)
western medicine is not particularly good at chronic care. good at acute.
i actually do beleive a lot on spinal positioning etc. the chninese believe that the proper alignment of your spine will allow qi to flow corectly to your bosy and your limbs....something i wanna figure out how to do
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