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Volume training. Super sets & drops to failure....

patsfan1379

patsfan1379

New member
Owner of the gym started me on a new routine today. I woke up Monday pissed of for some reason and just wanted to try something new. I used to do the old 12 sets per bodypart 8-10 reps per set.

Well I started Monday volume training. HEre is typical workout. Every set is to failure.

Incline DBs: Start @ Max weight for 8, then drop to 50% until failure. Do 4 sets.

Flat Machine Press: Max for 8 then drop a plate, continue... 4 sets.

Incline Flys: 3 sets of 8 reps then jump right into flat pushups to failure.

Cables: 3 sets of 8, jump in and out of upper/lowers.

Has anyone had experience in a program like this? Did they see any benefits?

I am looking to break a strength and size plateau i have been at for about 6 months...
 
Let's just say I'm natural at the moment, and so is he...

Basically I want strength and size and soemthing new.

My body has become accustomed to the regular routine.

5x5... etc????
 
Personally, I would recommend the 5x5. I have tried high volume programs, and I didn't get as much out of them as I have the 5x5.
 
i just changed my work outs also.

Some people do not like to change there work out because they know how strong they are on a given lift but when you change the order or intesity you appear to be weaker but actually you are not.

It is all a mind game
 
I usually give a new routine about 6-8 weeks to see if it will produce decent results. Every body's routines work.....for them; but we're all different. Give it a try and see what you think. If you don't like it, give the 5X5 a try, I think you'll like it.
 
Seems like WAY TOO MUCH. If I read that correctly, you're gonna do 14 sets to failure, then do either a drop set or a superset after each and every one. Dude that's just crazy.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Seems like WAY TOO MUCH. If I read that correctly, you're gonna do 14 sets to failure, then do either a drop set or a superset after each and every one. Dude that's just crazy.
Click to expand...

nah, we'll see how it goes. if it dont work, it dont work.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Seems like WAY TOO MUCH. If I read that correctly, you're gonna do 14 sets to failure, then do either a drop set or a superset after each and every one. Dude that's just crazy.
Click to expand...
explane why you gave me red again.you bitch. :evil:
 
I think you'll be fine, I just don't think the gains will be optimal. Even if you're doing 14 sets to failure, the workload for a typical 5x5 Wednesday workout would be significantly greater, considering there are 20 worksets for very heavy compound exercises. Granted, they aren't take to failure, but nonetheless are probably more taxing. I say go for it, I just doubt you will see any significant gains from a program like that.
 
What a waste of energy. There's no point to doing flys and cable movements. Stick to heavy flat and incline presses. Also, going to failure does nothing but drain precious energy, and hinder the CNS. It will delay recovery a great deal, especially doing it as much as you are.

I thought people were getting smarter than this. Apparently not.
 
It's probably worth reminding people that there are several 5x5 workouts. I'd guess the original poster (in post #5) is refering Needsizes' and some people are thinking he's refering to the Bill Starr periodized 5x5.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
What a waste of energy. There's no point to doing flys and cable movements. Stick to heavy flat and incline presses. Also, going to failure does nothing but drain precious energy, and hinder the CNS. It will delay recovery a great deal, especially doing it as much as you are.

I thought people were getting smarter than this. Apparently not.
Click to expand...
I'm on board with Tom....Waste of time and precious recovery doing shit like cables, pushups, flyes. Heavy weight builds muscle.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
What a waste of energy. There's no point to doing flys and cable movements. Stick to heavy flat and incline presses. Also, going to failure does nothing but drain precious energy, and hinder the CNS. It will delay recovery a great deal, especially doing it as much as you are.

I thought people were getting smarter than this. Apparently not.
Click to expand...

im not trying to build powerlifter muscles, or fat man muscles.

the cables and flys are for sculpting movement and stretches.

the key to my routine is contraction etc.

if i dont get 8 reps on every set, so be it. the key is to fail under max weight which kills one type of fiber, then burn out with a lighter weight which kills the other fibers.

also, kill the snide comments at the end, your fucking with the wrong person.

lets all get along here. :)
 
combat_action said:
I'm on board with Tom....Waste of time and precious recovery doing shit like cables, pushups, flyes. Heavy weight builds muscle.
Click to expand...

again, there are two types of muscle fibers.

i want to know if anyone has had results using this type of program, i dont need people to tell me whether it is right or not.
 
Like a previous poster pointed out, everyone is different.

If you were even to claim that 95% of people get optimal gains with a 5X5, you are still left with 5% for whom it is not. Experiment a little and find what works best for you. Only after you have tried many different programs will you be able to look back at your results and say with confidenece "this program works best for ME."

As for myself - I seem to gain size and strength faster with volume training than with anything else.
 
patsfan1379 said:
im not trying to build powerlifter muscles, or fat man muscles.

the cables and flys are for sculpting movement and stretches.

the key to my routine is contraction etc.

if i dont get 8 reps on every set, so be it. the key is to fail under max weight which kills one type of fiber, then burn out with a lighter weight which kills the other fibers.

also, kill the snide comments at the end, your fucking with the wrong person.

lets all get along here. :)
Click to expand...
they just dont know do they........whats up patsfan.
 
Yeah, I live by volume training, it works very well for me. Right now, I'm taking a break from it and doing DC Training, but in a few months, I'll go right back to volume. Just make sure you're eating/resting enough. Focus on progressing each week, whether it be an increase in reps or weight.

The trend on this board is 5x5/HST (not that there is anything wrong with that), so you should have expected to get a lot of the answers you've been seeing.
 
You can't only target one fiber type, that's a complete fallacy.

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=13;t=21

So to sit here saying you "kill one type of fiber" and then proceed to "kill the other" with a set of lighter reps is moronic.

And tadow, no, everyone isn't so different that the basic principles of physiology don't apply to them. There are universal rules to everything. Everyone is different, so does gravity not apply to you, but it does to me? No. So why is it different with physiology? Calories in vs. calories out applies to everyone as well, in terms of weight gain and weight loss. And when it comes to lifting, progressive load and microtrauma to muscles also applies, and more progressive load is possible with movements such as heavy presses while causing more microtrauma which is why (surprise, surprise!) they're ideal for building muscle.

Shit like flys and cables don't leave a lot of room for progressive loading. And your reason for doing them, patsfan, is to "sculpt" and "stretch". Okay, you can't sculpt a muscle. You can NOT change it's shape. You can make it bigger, or it can get smaller. The shape is determined by genetics. That's it. You can't develop different parts of the muscle. That doesn't happen.

As for stretching, okay, that's fine. You don't need to "stretch" that much though. Too many sets. And I don't see why you'd stretch during a training session. It's actually been shown to decrease performance. You'd be best off doing that on an off day for active recovery, in order to get blood flowing into the area.

needtogetas, get the fuck off the training boards. Seriously, you're like a fucking little parasite. Go sit on C&C and do your own little thing, because here you're lacking some of the most basic knowledge and fundamentals of lifting and you can't even begin to contest with anyone.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
You can't only target one fiber type, that's a complete fallacy.

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=13;t=21

So to sit here saying you "kill one type of fiber" and then proceed to "kill the other" with a set of lighter reps is moronic.

And tadow, no, everyone isn't so different that the basic principles of physiology don't apply to them. There are universal rules to everything. Everyone is different, so does gravity not apply to you, but it does to me? No. So why is it different with physiology? Calories in vs. calories out applies to everyone as well, in terms of weight gain and weight loss. And when it comes to lifting, progressive load and microtrauma to muscles also applies, and more progressive load is possible with movements such as heavy presses while causing more microtrauma which is why (surprise, surprise!) they're ideal for building muscle.

Shit like flys and cables don't leave a lot of room for progressive loading. And your reason for doing them, patsfan, is to "sculpt" and "stretch". Okay, you can't sculpt a muscle. You can NOT change it's shape. You can make it bigger, or it can get smaller. The shape is determined by genetics. That's it. You can't develop different parts of the muscle. That doesn't happen.

As for stretching, okay, that's fine. You don't need to "stretch" that much though. Too many sets. And I don't see why you'd stretch during a training session. It's actually been shown to decrease performance. You'd be best off doing that on an off day for active recovery, in order to get blood flowing into the area.

needtogetas, get the fuck off the training boards. Seriously, you're like a fucking little parasite. Go sit on C&C and do your own little thing, because here you're lacking some of the most basic knowledge and fundamentals of lifting and you can't even begin to contest with anyone.
Click to expand...


listen man, im not here to argue with you. why the hell do you have to iunsult the thread with snyde comments, and the notion that my mindset is moronic?
 
Tom Treutlein said:
You can't only target one fiber type, that's a complete fallacy.

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=13;t=21

So to sit here saying you "kill one type of fiber" and then proceed to "kill the other" with a set of lighter reps is moronic.

And tadow, no, everyone isn't so different that the basic principles of physiology don't apply to them. There are universal rules to everything. Everyone is different, so does gravity not apply to you, but it does to me? No. So why is it different with physiology? Calories in vs. calories out applies to everyone as well, in terms of weight gain and weight loss. And when it comes to lifting, progressive load and microtrauma to muscles also applies, and more progressive load is possible with movements such as heavy presses while causing more microtrauma which is why (surprise, surprise!) they're ideal for building muscle.

Shit like flys and cables don't leave a lot of room for progressive loading. And your reason for doing them, patsfan, is to "sculpt" and "stretch". Okay, you can't sculpt a muscle. You can NOT change it's shape. You can make it bigger, or it can get smaller. The shape is determined by genetics. That's it. You can't develop different parts of the muscle. That doesn't happen.

As for stretching, okay, that's fine. You don't need to "stretch" that much though. Too many sets. And I don't see why you'd stretch during a training session. It's actually been shown to decrease performance. You'd be best off doing that on an off day for active recovery, in order to get blood flowing into the area.

needtogetas, get the fuck off the training boards. Seriously, you're like a fucking little parasite. Go sit on C&C and do your own little thing, because here you're lacking some of the most basic knowledge and fundamentals of lifting and you can't even begin to contest with anyone.
Click to expand...

wtf are you saying.look at what you just posted.and then you try and back it up with a quote from another bord.I have bin lefting all my life and I was a army areborn ranger as well as a cook.I think I know something about tranning and feeding the body.the shit you said is the most fucked up thing I have ever herd.you cant sculpt a muscle.there is only one tipe of muscul fiber.it looks to me like youre the one who is stuck on basics and has allout to lern.l.o.l@cant sculpt a muscle
 
I never said there's only one type of muscle fiber, douche bag. Learn to read. You can't select only one type of muscle fiber to train. Also, the link I posted is based on peer reviewed evidence. Where's your studies to back your claim? Oh wait, you have none. Fucking moron.

Yep, you heard right, you can't sculpt a fucking muscle. The shape is determined by genetics. Physiology 101. People like you need to be burned alive in an oven. :)

Bin lifting all your life, huh? Awesome. :FRlol: Wow, idiocy spreads like a fucking wildfire, doesn't it? The Spartans had the right idea in killing off the inferior. Tell me, did you take a bullet to the head or something? Is it still lodged in your skull, Mr. "areborn" ranger? :FRlol:
 
LOL this is some funny shit.. you get 'fat man muscle' by eating at Wendys, not in the gym by doing low reps. Get a 500lb+ raw bencher to diet down to single digits and he should look pretty good... you'd think.

training aint complicated, add weight to bar, food to plate, get big. All that superset googly-boogly and iso work will pretty much guarenteed burn you out and stall any progress you might be making right now. focus the energy on getting you basic lifts up another 25-50lbs each and see what happens

needtogetas, please go back to c&c
 
Tom Treutlein said:
You can't only target one fiber type, that's a complete fallacy.

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=13;t=21

So to sit here saying you "kill one type of fiber" and then proceed to "kill the other" with a set of lighter reps is moronic.

And tadow, no, everyone isn't so different that the basic principles of physiology don't apply to them. There are universal rules to everything. Everyone is different, so does gravity not apply to you, but it does to me? No. So why is it different with physiology? Calories in vs. calories out applies to everyone as well, in terms of weight gain and weight loss. And when it comes to lifting, progressive load and microtrauma to muscles also applies, and more progressive load is possible with movements such as heavy presses while causing more microtrauma which is why (surprise, surprise!) they're ideal for building muscle.

Shit like flys and cables don't leave a lot of room for progressive loading. And your reason for doing them, patsfan, is to "sculpt" and "stretch". Okay, you can't sculpt a muscle. You can NOT change it's shape. You can make it bigger, or it can get smaller. The shape is determined by genetics. That's it. You can't develop different parts of the muscle. That doesn't happen.

As for stretching, okay, that's fine. You don't need to "stretch" that much though. Too many sets. And I don't see why you'd stretch during a training session. It's actually been shown to decrease performance. You'd be best off doing that on an off day for active recovery, in order to get blood flowing into the area.

needtogetas, get the fuck off the training boards. Seriously, you're like a fucking little parasite. Go sit on C&C and do your own little thing, because here you're lacking some of the most basic knowledge and fundamentals of lifting and you can't even begin to contest with anyone.
Click to expand...


I find it interesting that you know better than I do, after my 10 years of experience lifting, what program gives me the best results.

Most of your post I agree with. But you are claiming to have found the "Holy Grail" of bodybuilding, if you will. Yes, calories in calories out applies to everyone but you are oversimplifying the issue. Yes, if I consume less calories than I burn, I will lose weight. But if I consume too few calories, my metabolism will slow itself down, making weight loss increasingly difficult. For some people, this will happen more rapidly than to others, do you not agree?

The human body is the most complex machine in existence, and as is quite obvious from walking down the street, not all human bodies are the same, or react to stresses in the same manner. You could put me on Ronnie Coleman's diet, workout, and juice plan, and I would never look like him.

The funny thing about science is that people who are knowledgeable about current theories and understanding always think that they have all the answers. But guess what? In 20 years the information in your post will be old hat, and there will be new theories and new understanding that make that obsolete.

All I was suggesting to the OP was to not listen to the hype that is on all of these boards about the "wonder workout" that works for every single person on earth. I was suggesting that he experiment and find out what works best for him. Because whether you like it or not, YOUR workout plan and methodology is NOT the most efficient for EVERYONE ELSE on the planet.

Keep an open mind.
 
I never claimed to have found any holy grail of bodybuilding. What I did say was that there are basic rules that will apply to everyone. For example, people will say that what works best for them is trainin a bodypart once a week. In terms of hypertrophy, this simply will not be true. Walking down the street and seeing different people doesn't change the basic rules that apply to everyone. One of those is this: The muscle doesn't need 7 days to recover from a bout of training, and is much better served by more frequent loading, even at the cost of dropping pointless exercises like flys, cable crossovers, or pullovers.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
I never claimed to have found any holy grail of bodybuilding. What I did say was that there are basic rules that will apply to everyone. For example, people will say that what works best for them is trainin a bodypart once a week. In terms of hypertrophy, this simply will not be true. Walking down the street and seeing different people doesn't change the basic rules that apply to everyone. One of those is this: The muscle doesn't need 7 days to recover from a bout of training, and is much better served by more frequent loading, even at the cost of dropping pointless exercises like flys, cable crossovers, or pullovers.
Click to expand...


Agreed Tom - for MOST people, muscles do not need a full week to recover. But you would be naive to try to extend that claim to include every person on the planet. Everyone recovers at a different rate, just as everyone's body has a different genetic potential for growth.

I have read a lot of your posts Tom and I do believe that you help a lot of people on this board. But surely you can agree when I suggest to the OP to find what works for him.
 
Tadow said:
In 20 years the information in your post will be old hat, and there will be new theories and new understanding that make that obsolete.
Click to expand...
if it's true today, it'll be true twenty years from now as well.

Tadow said:
Keep an open mind
Click to expand...

Hmm... Do you think it's outside the realm of possiblity that you're being close-minded in thinking that people MUST be so different that some basic, fundamental rules don't apply to all of us (physiologically speaking)?
 
Guinness5.0 said:
if it's true today, it'll be true twenty years from now as well.



Hmm... Do you think it's outside the realm of possiblity that you're being close-minded in thinking that people MUST be so different that some basic, fundamental rules don't apply to all of us (physiologically speaking)?
Click to expand...


Actually, take a look at what scientists BELIEVED was true 50 years ago, and then tell me again that "If it's true today it'll be true twenty years from now." You actually might get a laugh out of some of the things that science held true in the past.

And as for me being closed minded - I already stated that what Tom said was probably true for about 95% of the population. So I'm not trying to force anyone to try anything just to be different. I'm just saying each person should find what works best for them.

Peace, brothers.
 
Tadow said:
Actually, take a look at what scientists BELIEVED was true 50 years ago, and then tell me again that "If it's true today it'll be true twenty years from now." You actually might get a laugh out of some of the things that science held true in the past.

And as for me being closed minded - I already stated that what Tom said was probably true for about 95% of the population. So I'm not trying to force anyone to try anything just to be different. I'm just saying each person should find what works best for them.

Peace, brothers.
Click to expand...
Gotcha. I see what you mean. However it does seem that most people are quick to stray from the basics and make things complicated when it is extremely counterproductive to do so.
Also, the original poster mentioned "sculpting" and "shaping" which are indeed fallacies. This could have been pointed out in a more tactful manner but the fact remains that there is a lack of understanding by most trainees of what will work for damn near everyone if they'd just do it.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Gotcha. I see what you mean. However it does seem that most people are quick to stray from the basics and make things complicated when it is extremely counterproductive to do so.
Also, the original poster mentioned "sculpting" and "shaping" which are indeed fallacies. This could have been pointed out in a more tactful manner but the fact remains that there is a lack of understanding by most trainees of what will work for damn near everyone if they'd just do it.
Click to expand...
bump this
 
there's nothing set in stone, and what works for you now might not work another 25lbs down the line...

maximising frequency at the expense of volume works, but so can maximising volume with reduced intensity... or more intensity and less volume... or more volume and intensity but at a lower frequency.

all I've learned is that I still have a LOT to learn :)
 
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