Using your opponents strength against him

[theoak01]

good move..

do you have any formal training or just bouncers helping each other out?

I would think some aikido could help out a bouncer.

I was in the army and learned some tkd and kung fu,and have taken edged weapon defence courses, but alot of what I know came froma previous boss who was a bodyguard for politicians and taught me all kinds of locks etc.

I just pass it on to my guys,and only have one other experienced guy on my team,and thats my best friend who at 17 won north american champion in the adult advanced class of pancration(baby ufc)

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Okay, I have trained in martial arts for about 7-8 years not much but I did learn alot, one thing I havent learned was how to use an opponents strength against him? Is it possible and if so post some examples that are there for me to understand this.

Hmmmmm.... Sounds good enough but aside from a couple of techniques I'm not sure how effective this is...

In wrestling when you are in a clinch or over & under position with somebody. You can throw them is a few different throws if they lean their center of gravity past your hips. Once they push against you, all you are doing is getting out of the way as you turn your body, results in them going for a ride and lading on their back.

All of the techniques I can think of that would use an opponent's strength against himself, involve nothing more than: Allowing him to push his center of gravity past your hips... Getting out of the way and affecting his trajectory by manipulating a limb or something as you get out of his way...




-BRR

 

[Sy Ali]

... one thing I havent learned was how to use an opponents strength against him? Is it possible and if so post some examples that are there for me to understand this.

Yes it's possible, there are some arts with focus on the idea. Aikido and Judo were brought up. Many wrestling arts use this idea, and as I understand they also train to make effective bursts of energy to take advantage of situations.

Think of it this way.. what if you're very tired or hurt.. how would you act in a situation? If you're very willing, and have a couple of excellent partners, really really wear yourself out one day (or over a few), then spar at 50% speed with one partner.

Try a little groundwork and notice how you simply do not have the strength to resist them directly. If you have the energy to resist, then do more pushups. =) If I push you, you would have to let my energy push you out of the way.. you don't have the energy to resist me and are too tired to flinch out of the way. When tired, sticking and being relaxed become very useful skills.

..

All that is about learning to not resist strength directly. Get out of the way or let the other guy's strength move you out of the way.

Applying it in general is a bit difficult .. Big Rick Rock expressed some good ideas about balance.

If I grab and shove you, and you let me move you out of the way, you could push my opposite shoulder to maybe pivot me. My strength and commitment went in one direction, and you're helping my rotation.

If I kick straight at you, and you move away, all my strength and commitment went into that kick (or it would not be harmful). When I miss, my leg is locked up and I am stretched out. You could simply get out of the way of a straight and deep kick and then walk past me, over my leg. Heck, maybe you could kick my knee out.

If I grab your hand, and I pull it, let me pull it and walk with your hand. Your hand is safe and you have another free hand (and feet!) to work with me. If I tug you and you simply walk with the tug maybe you could push a shoulder or hip or walk into me and push me over. It sounds stupid, looks wierd and feels submissive, but such ideas can work.

..

I'm no expert, and I hope your background doesn't make it hard for you to visualise the forces at work.. but I thought I'd give a few ideas.


Cheers,

 

[Judo Tom]

ill try to link a vid but here is a 'walk through' of a judo kata, im not a huge kata fan but there purpose is to illustrate and teach so they kinda fit well here

http://judoinfo.com/katanage.htm

basically its a few sets of throws done with a partner one guy throws right side then again left side then move to a new throw, they are broken into sets and meant to illustrate and teach some principles.. most if not all the throws are not really executed the same way in practice or tournaments but they are shown this way as just an textbook example and to drive home some important points.

hope you enjoy

 

[Judo Tom]

http://veritas.hrs.virginia.edu/judo/Kata/Nage No Kata Video/Nage_No_Kata.WMV

theres a direct link to the same kata (i believe same kata)

here is a link to a 'self defense kata' not as applicable to the discussion but show some interesting things.. again the techniques are not actually performed this way in competition/randori but just for illustration:
http://veritas.hrs.virginia.edu/judo/Kata/Kime No Kata Video/Kime_No_Kata.WMV

hope someone likes

 

[Kane Fan]

Okay, I have trained in martial arts for about 7-8 years not much but I did learn alot, one thing I havent learned was how to use an opponents strength against him? Is it possible and if so post some examples that are there for me to understand this.

it's easy
(to explain)
but that dosn't mean it's easy to do or understand lol
there are a variety of ways to use someones strength against them

I assumeyou mean their strength as in a physical litteral sence as in how much power they generate and how much weight they can move etc
now for that, there are some options
most of them invovle being faster then the guy or a better fighter

ok lets say someone comes in being overzealous with their offense
you can slip their punch and answer with a jab or cross striaght to their face
generally hook punches have better knockout potential, but in a case like this you wil have their forward momentum added to your punch
that's a double edged sword tho, your wrist may not be up to that level of impact but it is still one way to do it

another invovles faking
lets say you spar with someone for awhile and learn their dodgepattern
you throw a fake (or an actual punch like a Jab) and you know they will move their head to the left (towards your right)
so ok you Jab withyour left (lead with left for this) and when they are dodging down your right comes over with a hook
your punch power + their dodge power = harder impact

also if they are coming forward you can do a stop kick
basically it's a low forward thrusting kick that causes them to go off balance (good set up for a straight or hook depending on how they stumble)


now you can also turn someones 'strengths' as a fighter against them but that's a lot more complex

I hope some of this helped

 

[Kane Fan]

got anything a bouncer may be able to use ?

Im always looking for new things I may not know

the best bouncers never have to fight
they see the problem coming and have the guy removed before he gets out of hand
failing that (and in a packed club it is not possible so dn't think if you don't see a problem coming you are a bad bouncer) chances are if someoneis making trouble he's drunk, if he is drunk your handeye and quickness will likely be much superior to his

but there is really nothing SPECIFIC I can say that a bouncer would gain extra benifit from w/out knowing what kind of trouble this bouncer is dealing with

 

[Kane Fan]

its happened but usually not,if someone gets violent and takes a swing,Ill get out of the way and get behind them and take their back and choke them out,I dont strike unless I run out of options because it looks bad.usually though we just get a guy on each arm wrist lock or arm behind the back and walk them out

you are right in that it does not look right, also throwing barenuckle punches at a guy is definatly your last option because of potential injury to yourself
dodgeing the punch of a drunk and going to a choke or even scooping the guy under his arms is probubly an ideal option because like I said earlier chances are the guy is a drunk, not very fast and probubly not really that into a fight anyway

 

[Kane Fan]

I was in the army and learned some tkd and kung fu,and have taken edged weapon defence courses, but alot of what I know came froma previous boss who was a bodyguard for politicians and taught me all kinds of locks etc.

I just pass it on to my guys,and only have one other experienced guy on my team,and thats my best friend who at 17 won north american champion in the adult advanced class of pancration(baby ufc)

that is awsome dude he should be able to teach you everything you'd ever need as a bouncer
I have to recomend against Aikido
it's good for dealing with a drunk but it's not good for a bouncer dealing with a drunk around a crowd
a lot of Aikido's throws (that Iv'e seen) invovled the other guys feet leaving the ground in a rather uncontrolled manner, bouncers are supposed to minimalize the problems caused by a drunk not send his feet slamming into other patrons lol
you could get other benifits from it tho other then throws