Union

[Castro_bigdog]

How many of you think that Union's are a good thing.....

I like them.................

We need them in a work place at least I think.........

 

[pintoca]

Unions are a perfect example of a "Good idea" (defense of workers rights) being INCREDIBLY WRONG IMPLEMENTED.

Haven't seen one that stands for what they are supposed to do.

The more we move towards an Information economy, with less and less manual labor requried (except in those Countries where all the manual labor will be outsourced) we will see that people will realize they don't need unions anymore (you are responsible for your own rights) and the Unions fighting to justify their existence.

I see that here already, where you have your typical unions for blue-collar jobs and also a higher level of "union" for Information workers (CRAZY)

 

[nycgirl]

I'm anti-union. I have plenty more to say, but I'm hoping MTS will be able to sum it up in one nice post. It will be a way better post. Legal issues are more my thing.

 

[chefbone]

Unions belong in certain industries!!!

 

[migcor]

Unions do nothing but take your money.IMO

 

[bigmann245]

my dad is hard core union. if i ever talk bad about unions he will dis-own me i swear. i dont understand unions. all i know is there supposed to be there for you when something goes wrong. but my dad has been laid off several times during my younger years as a truck driver so i dont think a union is as good as he say's. sorry dad......

 

[IvanOffelitch]

I've worked 3 union jobs up to this point in my life, and I can say without hesitation that I will NEVER work another union job again as long as I live.

Thank GOD I'm self-employed now.

They may have served a purpose at one time, but their sole purpose in my experience is to either protect dead-beat workers who f*ck off on the job and get written up/fired, or to play the race card.

For those of us who take pride in our work and our jobs, the union was a slap in the face...all the while their other hand was in our hip pocket, if you get my drift.

So...lemme see if I got this straight: I pay you "union dues" (i.e. extortion money) so you can...wait, what is it you do for me?

Oh yeah...while I'm over here working my ass off, Don, our resident slacker is sitting in the committeemans office filing a grievance against the supervisor for the second time this month because the supervisor had the audacity to write his sorry, useless ass up for taking 1/2 hour breaks when they're supposed to be 15 minutes again?!?

Again, just to make sure I have a handle on this...Don's gonna get suspended for 30 days again, and when he comes back, you (the union) are gonna lean against the company and get him FULL back-pay for the time he was suspended again.

So...in essence...Don's f*cking off, getting suspended, which means everyone else has to pick up his slack (not really that much different from any other day, since when he IS here, he doesn't work anyhow), and when he comes back from his 30 day suspension, you're gonna get him his full back pay, in essence turning his 30 day suspension into a 30 day paid vacation?

Fuck that. No, DOUBLE-fuck that.

And people wonder why American industry is spiraling down the shitter. Between a pathetic work ethic and union bullshit, it's pretty fucking obvious to me.

 

[foreigngirl]

I've worked 3 union jobs up to this point in my life, and I can say without hesitation that I will NEVER work another union job again as long as I live.

Thank GOD I'm self-employed now.

They may have served a purpose at one time, but their sole purpose in my experience is to either protect dead-beat workers who f*ck off on the job and get written up/fired, or to play the race card.

For those of us who take pride in our work and our jobs, the union was a slap in the face...all the while their other hand was in our hip pocket, if you get my drift.

So...lemme see if I got this straight: I pay you "union dues" (i.e. extortion money) so you can...wait, what is it you do for me?

Oh yeah...while I'm over here working my ass off, Don, our resident slacker is sitting in the committeemans office filing a grievance against the supervisor for the second time this month because the supervisor had the audacity to write his sorry, useless ass up for taking 1/2 hour breaks when they're supposed to be 15 minutes again?!?

Again, just to make sure I have a handle on this...Don's gonna get suspended for 30 days again, and when he comes back, you (the union) are gonna lean against the company and get him FULL back-pay for the time he was suspended again.

So...in essence...Don's f*cking off, getting suspended, which means everyone else has to pick up his slack (not really that much different from any other day, since when he IS here, he doesn't work anyhow), and when he comes back from his 30 day suspension, you're gonna get him his full back pay, in essence turning his 30 day suspension into a 30 day paid vacation?

Fuck that. No, DOUBLE-fuck that.

And people wonder why American industry is spiraling down the shitter. Between a pathetic work ethic and union bullshit, it's pretty fucking obvious to me.

I agree with this. To add one more thing - they let people file medicals for so called "mental problems" and I think they are getting some pay while they are not at work; they fight to get workers thats been fired back on the job (when those same workers were fired because of too many days missed at work).
I read that a 80 year old man from Chrysler didnt wanna retire, he was bringing doctor notes that he can work and they could not force him to retirement!!!! Thats a waste of money, cause he is paid top pay and not really working, because of high senioroty

 

[c-sharp minor]

I currently work in a Unionized position.

Apparently, Union dues aside, we are the highest paid workers around for this type of work. We are also the most successful business of this type in our surrounding area, if not all of Canada. (not that the Union has anything to do with this).

Still, I would rather be compensated according to merit rather than because some agreement between the Union and Company says every * months your pay increase will be *$. There is no incentive for anyone to excel at their postition as the rate of pay and pay increases are guaranteed. It breeds complacency.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Unions had a time and a place. Workers' rights are now institutionalized as legislation. Today's unions are political engines that slow the economy and present barriers to entry and growth in the sectors where they persist.

It is time to rid ourselves forever of this anachronism.

 

[redguru]

Unions had a time and a place. Workers' rights are now institutionalized as legislation. Today's unions are political engines that slow the economy and present barriers to entry and growth in the sectors where they persist.

It is time to rid ourselves forever of this anachronism.

Unions will either be removed by the workers or the employers will move to where it is economically feasible to do business. Unions did have a point during the days of the Company Store, yadayadayada, but today are nothing more than a tool of a Socialist dinosaur unaware of its own imminent demise.

 

[PBR]

Unions are Mafias.

 

[HiDnGoD]

I've worked 3 union jobs up to this point in my life, and I can say without hesitation that I will NEVER work another union job again as long as I live.
Fuck that. No, DOUBLE-fuck that.
And people wonder why American industry is spiraling down the shitter. Between a pathetic work ethic and union bullshit, it's pretty fucking obvious to me.

I totally agree. They protect the slackers, inhibit personal incentive & are one of the causes of the high cost of every fucking thing I buy.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

Unions had a time and a place. Workers' rights are now institutionalized as legislation. Today's unions are political engines that slow the economy and present barriers to entry and growth in the sectors where they persist.

It is time to rid ourselves forever of this anachronism.

Bullshit. Bush and the other conservatives will NOT uphold such mentioned worker's legislation but instead continually thrash them.

You conservative types only think you'll rid yourselves so you can once and for all have your way.

Myself and numerous others are ready to shoot and kill.

You read that right.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Bullshit. Bush and the other conservatives will NOT uphold such mentioned worker's legislation but instead continually thrash them.

You conservative types only think you'll rid yourselves so you can once and for all have your way.

Myself and numerous others are ready to shoot and kill.

You read that right.

Bor,

You're crazy about this issue.

Unions have become an economic burden that fewer and fewer investors are willing to bear. They are a principal contributor to the outsourcing / offshoring of American jobs, and have brought many american entities to collapse (airlines) or mediocrity (public schools) or the verge of irrelevance (US auto industry).

You'll probably blame managers, it's what unionied workers do, but in all sectors, organized labor is a cost center with piss poor return on investment. Unions ignore a basic economic principle: labor is a commodity.

Union leaders figured this out generationa ago, and thus have used their influence not to better conditions for workers (that was done 70+years ago) but to carve out a legislative niche to heighten their relevance, long after it has all but evaporated.

If you and other union members have your guns all loaded up, turn them on yourselves. The US economy would receive a good strong kick in the ass from union dissolution, as the cost of labor came into line with market forces.

Have a nice day, nut job.

 

[jack sparrow]

I'm naming my first kid MattTheSkywalker

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

I currently work in a Unionized position.

Apparently, Union dues aside, we are the highest paid workers around for this type of work. We are also the most successful business of this type in our surrounding area, if not all of Canada. (not that the Union has anything to do with this).

Still, I would rather be compensated according to merit rather than because some agreement between the Union and Company says every * months your pay increase will be *$. There is no incentive for anyone to excel at their postition as the rate of pay and pay increases are guaranteed. It breeds complacency.

Fine then, if you don't like it go try your merit bullshit out buddy and check your fuking w-2 at the end of the year.

Don't come crying to me.

And for you other fuking crybabies don't come crying when your non-union job goes to shit because the union fear factor ceases to exist, and don't come crying when all your precious fuking goods are still just as expensive as they were before with unions. That's called the greed factor.

Heres what free enterprise really means MTS: if all you folks were buying the shit beforehand at that so-called inflated price-----you'll pay the same for it now without the union. The only difference is we'll take more money to the bank and all this supposed job creation will instead be worker cutbacks and wage decreases.

That is fact-and you can see it everywhere.

This country has way too many big biz assholes in government. I bet most of you would have said "no" if I were to ask you if you trust corporate America. But your to stupid to realize your putting an extension of Corporate America into office. Do you really think for one second that these assholes have your best interests in mind as a worker?????????????????????????? Grow a brain. And please right wing bible thumpers.......stop trying to create a huge diversion with all these secondary issues like abortion. Your just like the non-union companies that create productivity thru pumping bullshit into their workers heads and handing out peanuts for pay raises. It's funny how these conservative types(look that word up sometime-conservative) supposedly uphold the highest moral values and walk around with a bible hanging out of their ass but on the other hand will fuck you, your job and your family in a heartbeat in the name of corporate profit.

Bush and his little gang of American Worker terrorists are the biggest threat this country and your way of living has ever witnessed. Huge cuts in pay and benefits will be seen across the board, union and non-alike, with the continuation of this type of enemy in government.

If you are working for someone else..........you need to seriously consider re-evaluating this subject.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

Bor,

You're crazy about this issue.

Unions have become an economic burden that fewer and fewer investors are willing to bear. They are a principal contributor to the outsourcing / offshoring of American jobs, and have brought many american entities to collapse (airlines) or mediocrity (public schools) or the verge of irrelevance (US auto industry).

You'll probably blame managers, it's what unionied workers do, but in all sectors, organized labor is a cost center with piss poor return on investment. Unions ignore a basic economic principle: labor is a commodity.

Union leaders figured this out generationa ago, and thus have used their influence not to better conditions for workers (that was done 70+years ago) but to carve out a legislative niche to heighten their relevance, long after it has all but evaporated.

If you and other union members have your guns all loaded up, turn them on yourselves. The US economy would receive a good strong kick in the ass from union dissolution, as the cost of labor came into line with market forces.

Have a nice day, nut job.

Sorry but a minimum wage job for most people would not be a fair trade off for a stronger economy and better accomodating market forces. That's exactly what would become of it. And when it gets there...........I don't want to hear about it because I warned you. Or should I say I warned the others. And by the way..........I am not a nut job. I represent a huge group of folks that like being compensated for what I believe we are worth. If you and your little rich buddy plans for global domination are being stalled because you can't get the US wage rates in line with China-that's just to fuking bad asshole because were not going there.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

The fact of the matter is that the life of the American Worker has been on the decline since the 70's. Most people need 2-3 of these new generation type jobs to get by on. So Mr. Bush's answer is increase the IRA contributions. LOL--are you going to get a 4th job to funnel into that??

The answer is simple...........The US elite have all the $ in the world. The only thing left to acquire is power.

On it's current track eventually this society will mirror China. You'll need a PHD to bring in 5k yearly and live in a grass hut. Think real hard about that.

 

[redguru]

Sorry but a minimum wage job for most people would not be a fair trade off for a stronger economy and better accomodating market forces. That's exactly what would become of it. And when it gets there...........I don't want to hear about it because I warned you. Or should I say I warned the others. And by the way..........I am not a nut job. I represent a huge group of folks that like being compensated for what I believe we are worth. If you and your little rich buddy plans for global domination are being stalled because you can't get the US wage rates in line with China-that's just to fuking bad asshole because were not going there.

You're a friggin bolshevik, nothing more, nothing less. Your hatred of the Bourgeoisie has biased your thinking. Labor is a commodity to be traded, nothing more, nothing less. I do my job well, my employer compensates me well, or I walk. I do my job poorly, the employer lowers my compensation or removes me from his business. Compensating everyone equally without using merit as a factor is a flawed concept, disenfranchising those who wish to excel, and enabling those who are listless and sub-par.

You ARE pricing yourself out of a job

 

[Sub-Zero]

unions make me cry alot.


i love the taste but my eyes just cant handle them

 

[IvanOffelitch]

...I represent a huge group of folks that like being compensated for what I believe we are worth.

You could write a book based on that one sentence.

Problem is, who decides what you're worth paying?

You?

The government?

Your employer?

A union?

The open market?

IMO, it's the latter...the open market. (outsourcing aside for the moment)

If every worker had their way, MOST would say they deserve to be paid a bazillion dollars an hour, get 53 weeks paid vacation a year, free medical, optical AND dental WITH house-calls included, and a hooker/gigilo at every work station giving free blowjobs/kitty lickin's every half on the hour.

FACT of the matter is, too many American workers have become greedy, complacent, lazy, and have seriously OVER-estimated their worth on the job.

Unions do NOT help matters in that regards.

The American worker has become their own worst enemy, and unions are the ones arming them for battle against one another.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

You know what im not arguing this anymore. In a few more years the republicans will have had full control for 2 terms of Bush. Count the improvements--for you as a worker-and get back to me on it.

 

[DannoMight]

i wouldn't make nearly as much as i do in my field without being union. i'd rather bust my ass for $30hr plus my awesome benefits. 100% of your first $3000 of dental, $8000 of medical, free glasses, plus a pension, free perscriptions. or i could scab for $10 to close to $20 if i'm lucky with no benefits. in construction unions are awesome but if you work at a grocery store or factory they aren't as beneficial.
you can also learn a skilled trade and make extra money on the side from what you do regularly.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

i wouldn't make nearly as much as i do in my field without being union. i'd rather bust my ass for $30hr plus my awesome benefits. 100% of your first $3000 of dental, $8000 of medical, free glasses, plus a pension, free perscriptions. or i could scab for $10 to close to $20 if i'm lucky with no benefits. in construction unions are awesome but if you work at a grocery store or factory they aren't as beneficial.
you can also learn a skilled trade and make extra money on the side from what you do regularly.

Sheetmetal Local #2 here. You?

 

[spongebob]

oh god not another union thread.

lets skip the blah blah blah. this that or the other. who cares, there here to stay. shit even first generation mexicans are unionizing.

getting rid of unions would be like the NRA or pro-choice groups disappearing. these issues are dynamic as is workers rights.

for someone who say's the unions are no longer needed because we have fed and state laws in place obviously has never tried to file a complaint with the govt. ooh not too mention how overloaded such bureaucracy would be just to try and handle the amount of complaints that would come in if we had no unions. just not possible. there would be little to no protection of workers rights.

 

[Whiskey]

oh boy, don't ever ask a railroader about unions. he'll never shut the fuck up. It's one thing to believe in them, "which I do" but it is another to follow it like a religion, eat, drink, and screw day in and day out.

Whiskey

 

[Castro_bigdog]

I love all the post verry nice, but coming from a Rep. wich I am I think that my hard work is worth more then 4.50 a hour. I love what I do I love what I build, now you hate the no goods I do too, But not all union workers are bad.
I work hard to build a grait car the mustang........ I think if you make it you need to be abal to buy it too....
Yes it skares me that alot of azz holes take advantege of the union but thare alot of good people out thare that are thank full for them or should I say US.
F**K THE azz holes at international we need to make this thing work again, This thing called the UAW helped me by a house take care of my lil girls and a grait wife, unless I had a PHD this prob would of not happen think about it my freinds.
The benifits and the rights are well worth it, as Americans we deserve the best pay the best life and so forth.
Im not going to let some azz hole tell me that he is better then me becouse he had mom and dad send him to College Fu*k him and the horse he rode in on. Pluss Ill beat him down becouse Im bigger then him LOL.....
I love doing this for the right reason and if it was not right I would never do it, that is just me that is the way I am.....
By the way think about it If you make wage well your hole pay check would go to gas just for getting to work, man that is mest up in my book.
and if you think that Bush is right for telling you go to college and get a dagrea go right ahead but I know to many people that still cant get a job becouse WELL Thare is not any out thare.... People You need to understand that the compeny is all for them self and that is it, Thay hate you if thay can get a robot to do what you do thay would, plane and simpal brothers and sisters...............
We need more Union and less Bull Shi* around here becouse I would be damned If I let some f**k try to tell me that Im not at his leval.........

Thanx
pz

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

i wouldn't make nearly as much as i do in my field without being union. i'd rather bust my ass for $30hr plus my awesome benefits. 100% of your first $3000 of dental, $8000 of medical, free glasses, plus a pension, free perscriptions. or i could scab for $10 to close to $20 if i'm lucky with no benefits. in construction unions are awesome but if you work at a grocery store or factory they aren't as beneficial.
you can also learn a skilled trade and make extra money on the side from what you do regularly.

Sure, these are all great benefits, but they do not represent market demands for your services.

Because you have inflated benefits, (beyond what the free market would pay for your skills) fewer people have jobs and less work gets done.

That's just economics.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

If every worker had their way, MOST would say they deserve to be paid a bazillion dollars an hour, get 53 weeks paid vacation a year, free medical, optical AND dental WITH house-calls included, and a hooker/gigilo at every work station giving free blowjobs/kitty lickin's every half on the hour.

FACT of the matter is, too many American workers have become greedy, complacent, lazy, and have seriously OVER-estimated their worth on the job.

Unions do NOT help matters in that regards.

The American worker has become their own worst enemy, and unions are the ones arming them for battle against one another.

There is a reason workers are workers and not owners. Putting workers in charge of anything is the quickest way to assure its destruction.

It's like replacing generals in an Army with privates - the idea of workers doing ore than just working is 100% anti-business.

 

[HiDnGoD]

I'm a millwright. I fix computerized machines in a factory. If I were in a union shop I would not be able to do any electrical work, or any machining, or any welding. Because I am non-union I make $10.00 less than my unionized brothers, but I don't stand a round with my thumb up my ass waiting for the electrician. I have flexibility. I can learn & practice all those other skills

 

[milo hobgoblin]

WHAT THE FUCK???!?!?!?!?!?

I love all the post verry nice, but coming from a Rep. wich I am I think that my hard work is worth more then 4.50 a hour. I love what I do I love what I build, now you hate the no goods I do too, But not all union workers are bad.
I work hard to build a grait car the mustang........ I think if you make it you need to be abal to buy it too....
Yes it skares me that alot of azz holes take advantege of the union but thare alot of good people out thare that are thank full for them or should I say US.
F**K THE azz holes at international we need to make this thing work again, This thing called the UAW helped me by a house take care of my lil girls and a grait wife, unless I had a PHD this prob would of not happen think about it my freinds.
The benifits and the rights are well worth it, as Americans we deserve the best pay the best life and so forth.
Im not going to let some azz hole tell me that he is better then me becouse he had mom and dad send him to College Fu*k him and the horse he rode in on. Pluss Ill beat him down becouse Im bigger then him LOL.....
I love doing this for the right reason and if it was not right I would never do it, that is just me that is the way I am.....
By the way think about it If you make wage well your hole pay check would go to gas just for getting to work, man that is mest up in my book.
and if you think that Bush is right for telling you go to college and get a dagrea go right ahead but I know to many people that still cant get a job becouse WELL Thare is not any out thare.... People You need to understand that the compeny is all for them self and that is it, Thay hate you if thay can get a robot to do what you do thay would, plane and simpal brothers and sisters...............
We need more Union and less Bull Shi* around here becouse I would be damned If I let some f**k try to tell me that Im not at his leval.........

Thanx
pz

That post has to be a joke.

 

[-SD-]

Sure, these are all great benefits, but they do not represent market demands for your services.

Because you have inflated benefits, (beyond what the free market would pay for your skills) fewer people have jobs and less work gets done.

That's just economics.

I can see it now....the labor market supply and demand graph where in this case the wage is higher than the market demand, which creates a gap between where supply and demand lines are supposed to intersect in equilibrium. The gap is a surplus of jobs you just mentioned, fewer people have jobs, less work gets done.
Maybe that business education Im getting isnt fraudulent afterall.

 

[camshaft]

unions are the reason GM is about to go out of business.

 

[IvanOffelitch]

There is a reason workers are workers and not owners. Putting workers in charge of anything is the quickest way to assure its destruction.

It's like replacing generals in an Army with privates - the idea of workers doing ore than just working is 100% anti-business.

You are painfully correct.

There has to be several tiers of power/authority in most business situations.

Upper management: People who hopefully have the formal education, or the hard-earned street-smarts to know what it takes to run a business and make a profit at the same time.

Middle management: (optional) The go-betweens between upper management and the work force.

The blue-collar work force: The people responsible for creating a product or providing the service the company offers.

99% of the time, these positions are NOT immediately interchangeable. Put an upper management guy in front of an injection molding machine and you're likely to be met with the "deer caught in the headlights" look. However, chances are they could learn that job and perform it satisfactorily in a short period of time. It ain't rocket science.

On the other hand...

Ask a blue-collar worker how to conduct an accurate dma of their target consumers and develop a new marketing strategy based on that information and you're again likely to be greeted with the deer caught in the headlights look. That's not something they're gonna learn in a few weeks.

Funny thing is...most upper management people will (usually) readily admit they don't know squat about most of the floor operations, but a suprising # of the floor workers think they could don a suit & tie and take over mr. upper management's position w/o missing a beat.

(If I had $1.00 for every time I heard someone say that at the break table when I worked for one of the "big 3", I'd be wiping my a$$ with $20.00 bills today)

If I may digress for a moment...

I'm sorry, I don't care what ANYONE says, but ol' Heywood Jablowme or Sally Jane Wideass who works for one of the "big three" spending 8 hrs a night standing in front of a machine pushing a button every 3 minutes does not= a $30.00/hr+ job.

But the unions get it for him, along with those big fat, juicy bennie packages.

That's why new cars cost $30,000.00 when they should cost $15,000.00.

That's also why the Asian automakers can offer higher-quality cars for 2/3 the price the American automakers have to charge. The Asian automakers don't have to recoup their losses from ol' Long Duck Dong standing in front of a button all damned night making $30.00/hr + O.T. for doing a $10.00/hr job.

Call me a traitor, whatever you like, but I've worked those jobs. I didn't deserve the pay I was making for pushing a damned button for 8 hrs a night! THAT'S what I mean when I said many American workers have seriously OVER-estimated their worth on the job.

The unions have brain-washed them into believing that standing in front of a machine pushing a button all night warrants those crazy wages and bennie packages. And they've bit into it hook, line, sinker, AND the fishing rod & reel!

Want PROOF I'm right?

I've been saying the above for the last 10 YEARS, and just last night I heard on our local news that the company I used to work for is on the verge of filing bankrupcy!

WHY?!?

I'm sure it's due in no small part to workers like Don (reference my earlier post) who spend more time trying to figure out how to get OUT OF WORK than DOING their job, who even go so far as to sabotage the product to create down-time so they can sit on their sorry asses @ the break table and talk about how THEY should be in upper-management!

You know...they guy who's been getting those 30-day suspensions...er...30 day paid vacations, thanks to the unions. They guy making $30.00/hr for doing a 10.00/hr job.

The company is TRYING to keep the doors open and the workforce employed. (they've already reduced the workforce by something like 60% since I worked there) They're asking the workforce to take something like a 50% cut in pay so they can keep the doors open.

Know what?

It ain't gonna happen. Why? Because between the union and their brain-washed sycophants, they're too STUPID to realize that they're the ones responsible for the predicament they're in, but they'll be DAMNED if they're gonna take a pay cut!

Yes, I get worked up when I talk about this...I spent enough time there, I know exactly how this shit happens, and it pisses me off to no end.

You can only live high on the hog for so long before you run outta meat. That's exactly what's happened here. Saddest thing of all is, they're too stupid to realize that a little bit of something is better than a whole lotta nothing!

Have fun on the unemployment lines.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

You are painfully correct.

Thanks bor

At their core, markets are the process of two people agreeing on the value of something. That process seems to work pretty well.

 

[spongebob]

You are painfully correct.

There has to be several tiers of power/authority in most business situations.

Upper management: People who hopefully have the formal education, or the hard-earned street-smarts to know what it takes to run a business and make a profit at the same time.

Middle management: (optional) The go-betweens between upper management and the work force.

The blue-collar work force: The people responsible for creating a product or providing the service the company offers.

99% of the time, these positions are NOT immediately interchangeable. Put an upper management guy in front of an injection molding machine and you're likely to be met with the "deer caught in the headlights" look. However, chances are they could learn that job and perform it satisfactorily in a short period of time. It ain't rocket science.

On the other hand...

Ask a blue-collar worker how to conduct an accurate dma of their target consumers and develop a new marketing strategy based on that information and you're again likely to be greeted with the deer caught in the headlights look. That's not something they're gonna learn in a few weeks.

Funny thing is...most upper management people will (usually) readily admit they don't know squat about most of the floor operations, but a suprising # of the floor workers think they could don a suit & tie and take over mr. upper management's position w/o missing a beat.

(If I had $1.00 for every time I heard someone say that at the break table when I worked for one of the "big 3", I'd be wiping my a$$ with $20.00 bills today)

If I may digress for a moment...

I'm sorry, I don't care what ANYONE says, but ol' Heywood Jablowme or Sally Jane Wideass who works for one of the "big three" spending 8 hrs a night standing in front of a machine pushing a button every 3 minutes does not= a $30.00/hr+ job.

But the unions get it for him, along with those big fat, juicy bennie packages.

That's why new cars cost $30,000.00 when they should cost $15,000.00.

That's also why the Asian automakers can offer higher-quality cars for 2/3 the price the American automakers have to charge. The Asian automakers don't have to recoup their losses from ol' Long Duck Dong standing in front of a button all damned night making $30.00/hr + O.T. for doing a $10.00/hr job.

Call me a traitor, whatever you like, but I've worked those jobs. I didn't deserve the pay I was making for pushing a damned button for 8 hrs a night! THAT'S what I mean when I said many American workers have seriously OVER-estimated their worth on the job.

The unions have brain-washed them into believing that standing in front of a machine pushing a button all night warrants those crazy wages and bennie packages. And they've bit into it hook, line, sinker, AND the fishing rod & reel!

Want PROOF I'm right?

I've been saying the above for the last 10 YEARS, and just last night I heard on our local news that the company I used to work for is on the verge of filing bankrupcy!

WHY?!?

I'm sure it's due in no small part to workers like Don (reference my earlier post) who spend more time trying to figure out how to get OUT OF WORK than DOING their job, who even go so far as to sabotage the product to create down-time so they can sit on their sorry asses @ the break table and talk about how THEY should be in upper-management!

You know...they guy who's been getting those 30-day suspensions...er...30 day paid vacations, thanks to the unions. They guy making $30.00/hr for doing a 10.00/hr job.

The company is TRYING to keep the doors open and the workforce employed. (they've already reduced the workforce by something like 60% since I worked there) They're asking the workforce to take something like a 50% cut in pay so they can keep the doors open.

Know what?

It ain't gonna happen. Why? Because between the union and their brain-washed sycophants, they're too STUPID to realize that they're the ones responsible for the predicament they're in, but they'll be DAMNED if they're gonna take a pay cut!

Yes, I get worked up when I talk about this...I spent enough time there, I know exactly how this shit happens, and it pisses me off to no end.

You can only live high on the hog for so long before you run outta meat. That's exactly what's happened here. Saddest thing of all is, they're too stupid to realize that a little bit of something is better than a whole lotta nothing!

Have fun on the unemployment lines.

you need to understand that your situation and experience(true as it may be) is just one example. there are just as many success stories and there are just as many failur/success stories about piss poor management running companies into the ground. who cares. it has no bearing on whether unions will exist or not.

who was part of that 60% reduction in force, any salary employees? and salary employees being asked for paycuts?

i know i know, its the market.

just my opinion and ofcourse its not much but i believe a lot of companies still operate under an archaic approach towards management.

 

[spongebob]

Funny thing is...most upper management people will (usually) readily admit they don't know squat about most of the floor operations, but a suprising # of the floor workers think they could don a suit & tie and take over mr. upper management's position w/o missing a beat.

where do you work at where the upper management doesnt know squat about day to day operations? and then ofcourse that begs the question, if they dont know squat then why are they wanting to cut those jobs, which effect production and could cause safety issues, and cut the pay for a job they know nothing about.

 

[jrlex]

How many of you think that Union's are a good thing.....

I like them.................

We need them in a work place at least I think.........

LoL! Unions now are a fucking joke...Jimmy hoffa Era..now that was a Union.

 

[jrlex]

How many of you think that Union's are a good thing.....

I like them.................

We need them in a work place at least I think.........

Unions have sold out to management, they've sold out to our goverments they've even sold out they';re own employees...bunch of fucking pussies..I belong to the IA and it's a fucking joke..

But I'm glad you have it good with your union...

Aw, power to tha people
'Cause tha bosses right ta live is mine ta die
So I'm goin' out heavy sorta like Mount Tai
Wit tha five centuries of penitentiary so let tha guilty hang
In tha year of tha boomerang

 

[IvanOffelitch]

you need to understand that your situation and experience(true as it may be) is just one example. there are just as many success stories and there are just as many failur/success stories about piss poor management running companies into the ground. who cares. it has no bearing on whether unions will exist or not.

But it wasn't just that one experience. I've worked three completely different union jobs, and the mindset of the workforce was identical every single time:

"I's got's me a UNION job now! Boy, I's gonna be livin' high on da hog! I ain'ts gots'ta work, `cuz da UNION's gonna protect my ass no matter HOW bad I f*ck up!"

who was part of that 60% reduction in force, any salary employees? and salary employees being asked for paycuts?

Both blue and white collar. Many white collar supervisors were sent walking, and the company thought it'd be a good idea to take engineers and have them serve double-duty as supervisors as well. Needless to say, that went over like a turd in the punch bowl.

just my opinion and of course its not much but i believe a lot of companies still operate under an archaic approach towards management.

That part I agree with. The blame doesn't lie solely on the unions/blue collar workers, oftentimes middle and upper management are guilty of screwing the pooch when it comes to business decisions (re: the supervisor/engineer debacle above).

I'm just stating what I know to be true from multiple experiences. I know my opinion on the matter isn't popular with everyone, but the truth seldom is.

 

[DannoMight]

Laborers Local #1 Chicago IL.

 

[spongebob]

But it wasn't just that one experience. I've worked three completely different union jobs, and the mindset of the workforce was identical every single time:

"I's got's me a UNION job now! Boy, I's gonna be livin' high on da hog! I ain'ts gots'ta work, `cuz da UNION's gonna protect my ass no matter HOW bad I f*ck up!"



Both blue and white collar. Many white collar supervisors were sent walking, and the company thought it'd be a good idea to take engineers and have them serve double-duty as supervisors as well. Needless to say, that went over like a turd in the punch bowl.



That part I agree with. The blame doesn't lie solely on the unions/blue collar workers, oftentimes middle and upper management are guilty of screwing the pooch when it comes to business decisions (re: the supervisor/engineer debacle above).

I'm just stating what I know to be true from multiple experiences. I know my opinion on the matter isn't popular with everyone, but the truth seldom is.

ofcourse there's always employees who take advantage of the situation, but ive never seen a real high percentage. from what ive seen 90 to 95% of employees wanna do a damn good job. ofcourse a lot of factors are starting to play into that i guess. most of the old timers always do a good job, different work ethics from way back.

it is a shame some fuck it up for the rest.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

ofcourse there's always employees who take advantage of the situation, but ive never seen a real high percentage. from what ive seen 90 to 95% of employees wanna do a damn good job. ofcourse a lot of factors are starting to play into that i guess. most of the old timers always do a good job, different work ethics from way back.

it is a shame some fuck it up for the rest.

Bor

totally agree 80-95% want to do a good job. So true. But that remains true with or without a union structure in place.

What the union structure invariably does is make it difficult to impossible to get rid of the remaining 5-20%. That group of underperformers becomes a cost center that adds no value, and cannot be easily removed.

Management's hands are tied, so to speak. As is always the case, these underperformers are the biggest problem. This group, consuming resources with no return, slows growth and makes everything unions do more expensive than if the organization were non-union.

Unions never add to the bottom line. Economically, they cannot - as they are structured today.

 

[spongebob]

Bor

totally agree 80-95% want to do a good job. So true. But that remains true with or without a union structure in place.

What the union structure invariably does is make it difficult to impossible to get rid of the remaining 5-20%. That group of underperformers becomes a cost center that adds no value, and cannot be easily removed.

Management's hands are tied, so to speak. As is always the case, these underperformers are the biggest problem. This group, consuming resources with no return, slows growth and makes everything unions do more expensive than if the organization were non-union.

Unions never add to the bottom line. Economically, they cannot - as they are structured today.

i agree with everything you say matt, its only logical. when it comes to all the subtle points i think everyone agrees on and just offers experiences. and there are a lot of screwed up scenarios for sure.

but in the end i still believe in the right to organize and have representation. abolishing that right is not the way to go.

 

[redguru]

i agree with everything you say matt, its only logical. when it comes to all the subtle points i think everyone agrees on and just offers experiences. and there are a lot of screwed up scenarios for sure.

but in the end i still believe in the right to organize and have representation. abolishing that right is not the way to go.

Why should I be blocked from working for a company because I do not wish to bargain my skills collectively? I prefer to negotiate in good faith with my employer on my own without an arbiter who is trying to fill his coffers as well.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

i agree with everything you say matt, its only logical. when it comes to all the subtle points i think everyone agrees on and just offers experiences. and there are a lot of screwed up scenarios for sure.

but in the end i still believe in the right to organize and have representation. abolishing that right is not the way to go.

Agree

But every law that gives unions any advantage over non union workers should be repealed.

 

[spongebob]

Why should I be blocked from working for a company because I do not wish to bargain my skills collectively? I prefer to negotiate in good faith with my employer on my own without an arbiter who is trying to fill his coffers as well.

in theory its a good point but in reality i cant think of a situation where your point would hold a lot of merit though. hypothetically if your the best employee your already recieving what 'best' employees are compensated with, in fact, we already know if the union did not exist, the pay would most likely be substantially lower, considering union members are all over-paid. plus free markets would lower the wages.

 

[IvanOffelitch]

...from what ive seen 90 to 95% of employees wanna do a damn good job.

That certainly wasn't my experience. More like 75%+ had the attitude that all they were there to do was show up & collect their paycheck, they couldn't give a shit less if the desired quota of product went out the door or not. That left us...(dumbass) workers like me who DID give a shit about their jobs and the product to pick up the slack.

I actually had several salaried, non-union supervisors ask me why I worked so hard when it wasn't necessary (meaning the union was there to back me up). That floored me.

I worked so hard because I took pride in my job, and I wanted to do whatever I could to ensure the survival of the company...so I knew that I'd have a job there for the long run.

It didn't work out that way.

I can't count how many nights one certain greybeard in our department would show up for work, and as soon as the bell rang, he ran off and hid in the shipping area and slept for most of the night.

FWIW, he'd been there for 35+ years and refused to retire. WHY WOULD HE when he was making $45.00+/hr base pay PLUS time-and-a-half for overtime???

He constantly bragged how he'd "clock" 60+ hours a week including OT (that's 70+ pay hours @ 45.00+/hr), yet his actual time spent "working" on the job was no more than maybe 5-10 hours the entire week.

Some of the "skilled labor" maintenence guys there made even MORE money than that, and worked even fewer hours a week. GOD FORBID a machine would break down and you'd have to either wake a maintenence guy from his nap, or interrupt him from his poker game in the break room.

There's no incentive to perform when the union has your back no matter how bad you f*ck off. Where's the motivation to excel when you can bask in the riches of mediocrity provided by the union?

I realize all union shops aren't like this, but it's hard to be optimistic in any manner when everything I witnessed and experienced under union time was so pathetic. It got to me so bad that it began to affect my health, and I finally got so sick of the bullshit I quit.

I just can not stand to work beside people with that mindset.

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

I'm a millwright. I fix computerized machines in a factory. If I were in a union shop I would not be able to do any electrical work, or any machining, or any welding. Because I am non-union I make $10.00 less than my unionized brothers, but I don't stand a round with my thumb up my ass waiting for the electrician. I have flexibility. I can learn & practice all those other skills

$10.00hr less and your proud of that? No wonder workers can't get good representation in government with people like you out there. Thanks for lowering working conditions. Your a piece of work.

 

[HiDnGoD]

$10.00hr less and your proud of that? No wonder workers can't get good representation in government with people like you out there. Thanks for lowering working conditions. Your a piece of work.

No, I'm proud of the fact that I get paid what I'm worth, not what some union extorts from the company.
It's my opinion that unions have driven up the price of everything they are involved with, in manufacturing. In fact I'm jealous of the wage disparity, but I won't whore myself out, limit my experience & stunt my intellectual growth, just for that extra 10 bucks. Plus, IMO, every union place I've seen ends up going on strike every 2 to 3 years, for several months or more, & any wage benefits are reduced.
WTF does my work ethic have to do with good representation in government? Because I can't be bought? Because I won't go against my principals to line my pocket? Pfffffffffffffffffft!
I benefit every place I've been employed, & I improve working conditions & morale.
& yes indeed, I am a piece of work, thank you.

 

[Castro_bigdog]

Unions Rock, We need more of them to keep us paid and back us up all the way to the bank. Hafa for ever thats my theam if you will.........

Dont down it untill you try it broz............

We do have grait people that work hard, dont think that Union work is for slakers becouse it is not at all, It is out right hard untill you get some years in then you deserve to chill out a lil bit. Do you think that people need to bust thare azz for 30 years I dont............

 

[IvanOffelitch]

No, I'm proud of the fact that I get paid what I'm worth, not what some union extorts from the company.
It's my opinion that unions have driven up the price of everything they are involved with, in manufacturing. In fact I'm jealous of the wage disparity, but I won't whore myself out, limit my experience & stunt my intellectual growth, just for that extra 10 bucks. Plus, IMO, every union place I've seen ends up going on strike every 2 to 3 years, for several months or more, & any wage benefits are reduced.
WTF does my work ethic have to do with good representation in government? Because I can't be bought? Because I won't go against my principals to line my pocket? Pfffffffffffffffffft!
I benefit every place I've been employed, & I improve working conditions & morale.
& yes indeed, I am a piece of work, thank you.

"You must spread some Karma around before giving it to hidngod again."

Glad to see SOMEONE gets it.

 

[Castro_bigdog]

"You must spread some Karma around before giving it to hidngod again."

Glad to see SOMEONE gets it.

Yes Yes

 

[EnderJE]

Okay, so some people like them and some people don't. Some people take advantage and some people won't. Some people say to get rid of them and some people say that they should stay. Each side claims a moral victory over the other and we go back to asking Raina to flash her tits. Do I have it right?

 

[foreigngirl]

Okay, so some people like them and some people don't. Some people take advantage and some people won't. Some people say to get rid of them and some people say that they should stay. Each side claims a moral victory over the other and we go back to asking Raina to flash her tits. Do I have it right?

right on.

 

[HiDnGoD]

Okay, so some people like them and some people don't. Some people take advantage and some people won't. Some people say to get rid of them and some people say that they should stay. Each side claims a moral victory over the other and we go back to asking Raina to flash her tits. Do I have it right?

Here, here! Huzzah! Now there's ome members worth uniting with.

 

[IvanOffelitch]

...Want PROOF I'm right?

I've been saying the above for the last 10 YEARS, and just last night I heard on our local news that the company I used to work for is on the verge of filing bankrupcy!

Just as a quick follow-up;

They officially filed this morning.

 

[HiDnGoD]

"You must spread some Karma around before giving it to hidngod again."

Glad to see SOMEONE gets it.

Thank you. I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I believe in honesty & a good day's pay for a good day's work.