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tren raises prolactin lvls, how to prevent it.

W

wrestletib

New member
besides taking t3, what drug can i take to help prevent prolactin? im going to be on sus250 and tren acetate, and i want to have everything on hand b4 i get puffy nipples that milk.


also anyone who has been on tren, did it effect your nipples via prolactin issues? what did you do to help your situation
 
Access said:
Low dose winny helps with Progesterone, T3 and Dostinex help with Prolactin.
Click to expand...


dostinex is ridiculously expensive, what about some cabaser? if so, how would i run it? would i ony use ONCE i start milking ( if i do) or just start to take it through cyce... or pct, whats the deal? )

thansk
 
You want to take about 1mg/week but divided up into smaller amounts over that week period and while on cycle. Don't wait for an issue with this one. Persoanlly I like being on Dost anyways..:-)
 
it is not the prolact that is the issue--it is the estrogen--control your e, and no issues with prol/prog.
 
wrestletib said:
dostinex is ridiculously expensive, what about some cabaser? if so, how would i run it? would i ony use ONCE i start milking ( if i do) or just start to take it through cyce... or pct, whats the deal? )

thansk
Click to expand...

Cabaser = Dostinex. Same thing. Both are cabergoline with brand names.
 
wrestletib said:
besides taking t3, what drug can i take to help prevent prolactin? im going to be on sus250 and tren acetate, and i want to have everything on hand b4 i get puffy nipples that milk.


also anyone who has been on tren, did it effect your nipples via prolactin issues? what did you do to help your situation
Click to expand...

bromocriptine or dostinex
 
Hey fellers,

I'v always used Tren in each of my cycles and towards the last few times i've used it I started getting sore nipples in the last week of using it. I never had a problem before, but these last few times it started becoming pretty evident. I was going to use Dostinex, but like wrestle said...that shit is crazy expensive (but not compared to what can happen if you don't have it). This time I did a little asking around and some reading and have found that a lot of bros swear by Pygeum and B6. I threw it in on the last Tren cycle...

Pygeum: 100mg ED
B6: 200mg 3xday.

I didn't get sore nipples at all this last time. You might want to try it bro....it worked for me. I think nature can do just as much for us as a laboratory at times. See if it works for ya!
 
gjohnson5 said:
Uuum no.

COntrolling estrogen will have no effect on prolactin or progesterone levels.
Completely different hormones and completely different receptors in the body
Click to expand...


No you are wrong.


Estrogen is a main initiator of Gyno and it must be present for it to occur. There is no distinction in research between "prolactin induced" gyno, and "estrogen induced" gyno..
progestins work via the PR. But their action via the PR does not cause gyno in any direct fashion. Progestins seems to be rather asexual in their characteristics. Progestins can aggravate estrogen related gyno, the current theory being an upgrading effect on the ER.
progesterone can only cause or aggravate gyno in the presence of circulating estrogen.
there is no evidence whatsoever of any type of progestin ever causing gyno in an environment devoid of estrogen.
There also appears to be no direct mechanism by which this is possible.

just to add..

"Plasma progesterone was raised in 36 of 50 (72%) men with liver disease compared with 20 healthy male control subjects. Plasma progesterone was significantly higher in men with non-alcoholic cirrhosis with gynaecomastia than those without, but no similar relationship was found in men with alcoholic fatty change and alcoholic cirrhosis. Hyperprolactinaemia was found in 14% of men with liver disease but levels were unrelated to the presence of gynaecomastia.. Increased circulating levels of progesterone and prolactin alone do not explain the development of gynaecomastia in patients with liver disease, but progesterone may be an additional factor acting in association with the known disturbances of other sex steroids. (1)

Progesterone enhances estrogen's stimulation of mammary gland growth, and our findings suggest that progesterone may play a role in the gynecomastia that occurs in men with hyperthyroidism. (2)
progesterone/progestins themselves are not capable of causing gyno (study 1), but enhance the action of estrogen, which is typically elevated in hyperthyroidism (study 2).

"True gynecomastia is a condition in which there is an enlargement of the male breast due to an increase in ductal tissue and periductal stroma.[13]"

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle...LN3SJ1SStuTa53D|-3360746919023192434/184161393/6/7001/7001/7002/7002/7001/-1

Estrogen receptor knockout mice manifest significantly impaired ductal development, implying that estrogen is key to ductal development, and by definition (see phrase in quotes above) gynecomastia.



(1) Gut. 1982 Apr;23(4):276-9.

Progesterone, prolactin, and gynaecomastia in men with liver disease.

Farthing MJ, Green JR, Edwards CR, Dawson AM.


(2) J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2.

High serum progesterone in hyperthyroid men with Graves' disease.

Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K.
 
o.k bros, im getting a lot of helpful info.

my cycle is going to be sus and tren. what do you recommend i have ON HAND, and how should i take it..


i currently have a very mild case of prolactin gyno. should i fix this before i get into another cycle? ( its not noticable, but i know its there, and if i squeeze my nipple, ill milk) How can i fix this issue? what drugs to take, and how would i take them.
 
I apologize , but a quick google search does not qualify as "there is no distinction in research between prolactin and estrogen"

Problem number 1 with your theory: prolactin and progesterone are 2 different hormones. If you going to research, atleast research the correct items

Problem number 2 with your theory Prolactin can most definitely induce gyno. There are lots of examples on the board of people's after cycle having what they all "soft lumps" from not using cabaser or bromocriptine. I'll try to find some science if you will on the subject

big_daws said:
No you are wrong.


Estrogen is a main initiator of Gyno and it must be present for it to occur. There is no distinction in research between "prolactin induced" gyno, and "estrogen induced" gyno..
Click to expand...
 
wrestletib said:
o.k bros, im getting a lot of helpful info.

my cycle is going to be sus and tren. what do you recommend i have ON HAND, and how should i take it..


i currently have a very mild case of prolactin gyno. should i fix this before i get into another cycle? ( its not noticable, but i know its there, and if i squeeze my nipple, ill milk) How can i fix this issue? what drugs to take, and how would i take them.
Click to expand...

Definitely fix the issue before jumping into another cycle. I ran into the same problem before this last cycle (Started again before I completely cured my gyno) and my nips got pretty bad.

I'm waiting to hear replies to this question, because I'm off cycle now, and like you still having gyno issues and getting fluid from my nips.
 
gjohnson5 said:
I apologize , but a quick google search does not qualify as "there is no distinction in research between prolactin and estrogen"

Problem number 1 with your theory: prolactin and progesterone are 2 different hormones. If you going to research, atleast research the correct items

Problem number 2 with your theory Prolactin can most definitely induce gyno. There are lots of examples on the board of people's after cycle having what they all "soft lumps" from not using cabaser or bromocriptine. I'll try to find some science if you will on the subject
Click to expand...

First, this is not my theory, its science.

Second, no shit they are 2 different hormones, but they still effect each other.

Third, you must not have read this..."there is no evidence whatsoever of any type of progestin ever causing gyno in an environment devoid of estrogen." So as for the people on this board reporting gyno after tren or deca they are all most likely running test too. If you dont control your estrogen and it gets out of control then yes, prolactin can make a bad situation worse.
 
big_daws said:
"there is no evidence whatsoever of any type of progestin ever causing gyno in an environment devoid of estrogen."
Click to expand...
Yea but you would have to extremely over do the AI to get rid of all estro. Then your gains would suck and you would be wasting money. Controlling estro doesn't mean getting rid of it all.
 
big_daws said:
First, this is not my theory, its science.

Second, no shit they are 2 different hormones, but they still effect each other.

Third, you must not have read this..."there is no evidence whatsoever of any type of progestin ever causing gyno in an environment devoid of estrogen." So as for the people on this board reporting gyno after tren or deca they are all most likely running test too. If you dont control your estrogen and it gets out of control then yes, prolactin can make a bad situation worse.
Click to expand...
I do believe that estrogen is the problem with tren gyno. I had early symptoms of gyno on my last coruse of tren. Bromocriptine did nothing to help and neither did vit B6 (although both increased my libido.) The only thing that finally helped was 40-60mg Nolvadex daily.
 
gjohnson5 said:
I apologize , but a quick google search does not qualify as "there is no distinction in research between prolactin and estrogen"

Problem number 1 with your theory: prolactin and progesterone are 2 different hormones. If you going to research, atleast research the correct items

Problem number 2 with your theory Prolactin can most definitely induce gyno. There are lots of examples on the board of people's after cycle having what they all "soft lumps" from not using cabaser or bromocriptine. I'll try to find some science if you will on the subject
Click to expand...

It's been my understanding (and maybe this is what big_daws is trying to explain too) that estrogen can cause gyno by its mechanisms and prolactin/progesterone can cause gyno by whatever different mechanism. "Estrogen gyno" is regardless of prolactin & progesterone, but chances of "prolactin/progesterone gyno" are greater in the presence of estrogen, which is why it's a good idea to reduce it particularly when running progestins.

Cabaser is an affordable "insurance policy" in comparison to dostinex. 0.5mg E3D is all you need. It also helps with libido, an added benefit.
 
I keep reading the science on this and there does seem to be a consensus that estrogen causes gyno , but when you go to see. Surgeon information on the web is pretty quick to say they have no idea how the gyno formed.

Which in my mind is the correct answer, because we're just not sure

Prolactin being an anterior pituirary hormone I belive can signal the formation of brest tissue with the help of IGF-1 (which is secreted in the presense of estrogen) but I believe can also be formed from Glutathione Pathway.

But I'm really not sure because none of the studies were done with someone injecting say 100mg tren ace daily so who knows???? Basically this is some text about what is believed about gyno formation

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm
 
I have yet to see evidence that prolactin is elevated in response to anabolics - most studies show no association. I hear this quite a bit and it always confuses me. Has someone else actually come up with a logical and demonstrated link that we can all see and learn from, or is this just the result of years of speculation spiraled out of control?
 
I think it is also important that we not to lump prolactin and progesterone together. I am wondering if this is at the root of some of the confusion.
 
gjohnson5 said:
Unfortunately prolactin and progesterone seems to be one in the same hormone around the boards including this one *sigh*
Click to expand...

exactly....

Prolactin does and WILL cause puffy, nasty, nips... And some people can get this effect with micro doses... think less than 100mg NPP weekly....

Bromo is a shitty drug, which is why another poster didnt have success with it.

Cabaser has a much better effect and WILL prevent the puffy nips developed on tren/deca cycles

As for true "gyno", as in hard lump and fat collection, I have no opinion/knowledge on that, but the puffy nips tren/deca gives people is 100% Prolactin, which is not influenced in any way by any AI.
 
get456 said:
exactly....

Prolactin does and WILL cause puffy, nasty, nips... And some people can get this effect with micro doses... think less than 100mg NPP weekly....

Bromo is a shitty drug, which is why another poster didnt have success with it.

Cabaser has a much better effect and WILL prevent the puffy nips developed on tren/deca cycles

As for true "gyno", as in hard lump and fat collection, I have no opinion/knowledge on that, but the puffy nips tren/deca gives people is 100% Prolactin, which is not influenced in any way by any AI.
Click to expand...

What I am looking for is the proof it is actually prolactin. Otherwise it is just speculation based on the fact that it "can't be estrogen". There is a possible link with estrogenicity, yes, but most studies with anabolic steroids (nandrolone, test, and trenbolone to my recollection) don't show any rise in prolactin with use. Here are a couple with trenbolone, nandrolone specifically. I recall seeing one with Testosterone where there was a very short lived increase. THat is about it.

Effects of anabolic implants of oestradiol alone or in combination with trenbolone acetate on the ultrastructure of mammary glands in female lambs regarding their interference in prolactin secretion.

The side-effects of anabolic steroid implants on mammary gland ultrastructure were evaluated in female lambs treated with oestradiol (n = 10) and with oestradiol plus trenbolone acetate (n = 10). Ten non-implanted lambs were used as controls. Apart from the ultrastructural study of the mammary gland, an assessment of the prolactin pituitary cell population was carried out by immunological methods. Our results showed that oestrogenic implants exert stimulating effects on mammary gland development, both by activating the synthesis process at mammary gland cell levels and by increasing prolactin pituitary production. Nevertheless, there was no evidence of secretory products in the lumen of the gland. Implants containing trenbolone acetate counteracted the mammary stimulus of oestrogens showing ultrastructural images of cell autolysis and necrosis.

Growth hormone, insulin, prolactin and total thyroxine in the plasma of sheep implanted with the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate alone or with oestradiol.

Donaldson IA, Hart IC, Heitzman RJ.
The mode of action of the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate (19-norandrost-4,9,11-trien-3-one-17-acetate) was studied through the endogenous hormonal response of castrated male sheep to subcutaneous implantation of 140 mg of trenbolone acetate and 20 mg of oestradiol both separately and in combination. Radioimmunoassay of delta-4,9,11-trienic steroids and oestradiol-17 beta in plasma confirmed that simultaneous administration of trenbolone acetate with oestradiol led to a significantly greater persistence of oestradiol-17 beta residues in plasma (P less than 0.05) than with implantation of oestradiol alone. Oestradiol treatment increased concentrations of growth hormone and insulin (P less than 0.05; P less than 0.001 respectively) in plasma samples collected weekly. Trenbolone acetate by itself had no significant effect and the oestrogenic response was blocked on the simultaneous implantation of trenbolone acetate and oestradiol (despite higher plasma levels of oestradiol-17 beta with this treatment). Plasma total thyroxine was markedly depressed to 45 per cent of its basal level by trenbolone acetate, alone or with oestradiol (P less than 0.001) and depressed to 80 per cent of basal by oestradiol treatment alone (P less than 0.001). Plasma prolactin was unaltered by the above treatments.

Anabolic steroid-associated hypogonadism in male hemodialysis patients.


Hypogonadism in male hemodialysis patients has been previously reported. However, its precise pathogenesis has not yet been clarified. Mepitiostane and nandrolone decanoate are anabolic steroids prescribed for uremic anemia, and those may possibly exacerbate uremic gonadal damage. We studied the influences of these steroids on male gonadal function. Seventy-six hemodialysis patients were selected and examined for levels of luteinizing hormone (LH), follicular stimulating hormone (FSH), total testosterone, and prolactin. Twenty-three patients who received anabolic steroids showed lower testosterone values (205.2 +/- 35.6 ng/dl) than did patients without these steroids (449.7 +/- 21.3 ng/dl). Gonadotropins and prolactin showed no significant differences between the patients with and without the steroids. The testosterone values of three patients with mepitiostane increased after they stopped taking steroids. One patient suffering from complete aspermia recovered (sperm count: 0/ml to 1300 x 10(4)/ml) after discontinuation of mepitiostane and administration of human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG). This clinical study suggests that some anabolic steroids play a role in uremic hypogonadism; thus mepitiostane or its analogues should be carefully prescribed for young male patients.
 
I am not saying prolactin is never an issue. What I am saying is that if it were a common issue it should be well documented at this point. I don't see this documentation, hence it is difficult to support the notion that cabergoline, etc. should be normal ancillary drugs. The actual need for them specifically may be very rare.
 
Good posts. Yeah, prolactin puffy, estro, hard. What's so difficult to understand? But Bill brings up a good point I've mentioned myself. Too many people are treating high prolactin levels when they don't even know they have it. Once again, the gurus of the 90's were telling people to use bromo when it is very dangerous drug. Dostinex is ridiculously expensive and certain nutrients lower prolactin naturally. Guys get a little too drug happy and think they're being all scientific with all this shit when in fact, a little more understanding of the mechanisms involved is in order.
 
Bill Llewellyn said:
I am not saying prolactin is never an issue. What I am saying is that if it were a common issue it should be well documented at this point. I don't see this documentation, hence it is difficult to support the notion that cabergoline, etc. should be normal ancillary drugs. The actual need for them specifically may be very rare.
Click to expand...
good to have you posting bro.
 
I dunno , the heart value risks for Dostinex/Cabaser from the Parkison's information that I have is that Dostinex is only a problem at high dosage for extended periods of time. This is why Dostinex is not FDA approved for Parkisons disease.

The issue is that progestin may have a negative effect on secretion of thyroid hormones TBG, TSH, THR. Thereis another negative feedback loop between the thyroid , the pituitary and the hypothalamus to maintain TH levels. If thyroid hormone levels drop , this could mean an increase in prolact secretion by the pituitary. This is what I don't have evidence of is trenbolone decreasing thyroid output. Progestins however CAN decrease thyroid output and thus cause a rise in prolactin

Bill Llewellyn said:
Why use a drug to control something that may not be out of control? I see your point, but Cabergoline also has its own risks, and isn't cheap.
Click to expand...
 
This is an excellent thread with informative discussion.

Just to touch on comments about being "drug crazy" I do agree with this to a point but there seems a wealth of anecdotal evidence showing guys not controlling both Progesterone and Prolactin on Tren cycles to end up with gyno issues. If you control these then the gyno situation does not arise and maybe we could look more at natural alternatives but taking Dostinex and Winny does the trick.
 
The reason why the information is anectdotal is that most of the studies on tren are done on cows.

Access said:
This is an excellent thread with informative discussion.

Just to touch on comments about being "drug crazy" I do agree with this to a point but there seems a wealth of anecdotal evidence showing guys not controlling both Progesterone and Prolactin on Tren cycles
Click to expand...
 
gjohnson5 said:
I dunno , the heart value risks for Dostinex/Cabaser from the Parkison's information that I have is that Dostinex is only a problem at high dosage for extended periods of time. This is why Dostinex is not FDA approved for Parkisons disease.

The issue is that progestin may have a negative effect on secretion of thyroid hormones TBG, TSH, THR. Thereis another negative feedback loop between the thyroid , the pituitary and the hypothalamus to maintain TH levels. If thyroid hormone levels drop , this could mean an increase in prolact secretion by the pituitary. This is what I don't have evidence of is trenbolone decreasing thyroid output. Progestins however CAN decrease thyroid output and thus cause a rise in prolactin
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^ I was just about to post the bolded part.

also, delayed orgasm or aorgasmia even, which is common with nandrolones is a symptom of elevated prolactin. when dostinex is used to lower prolactin levels, normal ability to orgasm returns.
 
I am using 75mg ED tren acetate with 85mg ED test propionate. I use 200mg p-5-p ED to help prevent prolactin build up. Bothy my nipples are sensitive and there is a small hard pea sized lump underneath the right nipple which is worrying me. No I have literally FELT the effects of lowered prolactin when using P-5-p in the past both Post cycle and on a test and EQ cycle (prolactin buildup wasnt really an issue). -sexually speaking.

200mg p-5-p which is a b6 coenzyme without the same nerve damage risks as B6 seems to be helping in the sexual department but I have no baseline to compare it to as I would not take tren without it. I am 3 weeks into a 4 week burst cycle which will be followed by 2 weeks PCT and then another burst cycle using NPP.

I was thinking about adding selegeline or dostinex to prevent and help remove this issue IF it is prolactin related. I have my doubts that it is though....

I have had 1 instance of a weird and somewhat delayed orgasm which I knew was due to the tren, but other than that its normal, sexual libido is up and time between orgasms where I can achieve an erection again is normal if not improved....this leads me to think that maybe prolactin isnt the culprit?

maybe the best option is just to use something that competes for the PR as progesterone receptor agonizing may be the issue with tren... which is where low dose winny would help HOWEVER I am not a fan of orals, especially not one as toxic on a mg per mg basis as winny with the lipid trashing its famous for.....

so I'm at a crossroads... Considering I will be using progestenic AAS for the next months I would like to get a grip on this situation.

what do to... Only thing I can think of trying right now is attemptin a few weeks on selegiline or dostinex and see if that helps.

My nipples are a little puffy but its the pea sized hard lump behind the one that worries me more than anything.
 
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