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Those of us GAINING LBM

slinky

New member
Let's turn the tables a bit and introduce a discussion here on "gaining", or "maintaining"; NOT losing. What are we doing training or dieting wise?

I know there are women who are not in a "I need to lose" mode here. Let's talk strategy. Is it as simple as eating more protien? More calories? Training heavier? More volume? Less cardio?

Color me curious. ;)
 
slinky I'm in that gaining mode. Am eating complex carbs before and after training. Have added one meal extra. Upped protein to about 200 grams or so. Am lifting as heavy as I can while maintaining form, so wt doesn't always increase. Also working around a rotator cuff so that really forces me to be carefull. Still doing cardio but only on non leg days and for 15-30 minutes. However am doing some hiking on the weekends, gotta get out in the woods!
 
Hi Slinky (and everyone else),
Im kind of the odd poster here, in that I am a bike racer/runner and compete in (uggh) endurance events (yeah, that would be cardio for 2-3 hrs). I am however also interested in strength sports and have trained for Plifting (my BF used to compete) and would like to do some more PL training when my season ends in the Fall.

I keep my BF at ~13% (can't seem to get much lower (too much cardio :D)) and weigh 140 (at 5'10"). My goal this Fall is to gain some strength in my legs and lower body. I have alway had a strong upper body and for a long time could bench more than I squat (I have maxed at 175 for bench and only 200 for squat, 245x5 for deads).

My question is how much should I let my BF increase to obtain maximum strength gains, but not become a fat a$$. I usually put on 5+ lbs in the winter (prob all fat). At approx what BF% do most of you find that you make the greatest gains in strength?
 
I guess I'm in a maintain/improve certain areas mode. In my workouts I still aim for slow steady strength increases, and in my running, I aim for faster times. I don't have any plans to compete, so no deadlines or hurry, I just enjoy the process of training, and want to be able to do it long term.

I'm sure the time will come when age will start working against me, but it hasn't happened yet. I still see heavier weights and faster runs in my future. I'm curious to see what my body can do. Training 4 days a week doing weights followed by cardio seems to suit me mentally and physically. I change things around to keep it interesting, but it's become ingrained in me to do something physical during these blocks of time.

Diet is pretty much the same except for slightly larger quantities. I don't count calories or measure anything, I just go by feel, clothes and the mirror. Even if I take a week off, go on vacation, etc. I don't fret much anymore because I know once I'm back to my routine, things seem to fall into place.

This is a totally new mindset from what I used to have a few years ago. When I was uptight and beat myself up over things, I was more likely to binge and then punish myself with a strict diet/routine which would only lead me to binge again, and so on.
 
higher protein
slightly higher carbs
better quailty training...not more
 
Woof - I think that's a very debatable question. For example, my PLer is very strong, yet maintains 12% BF year round, except around comp, when he usually comes in leaner since he dieted a little to make weight. Sure, he's a guy, but he believes keeping a lower BF% helps you be more athletic, which helps you gain strength.

One theory he's trying out on his female teams is that women actually need more volume than men to gain strength on their primary exercises. So instead of squatting 4x4s, he's increasing the women to 7x4s, for example. You obviously wouldn't do that on all your lifts, but on one lift/workout, you might want to try to increase the volume (add sets) and see how that works.

I'll post my mass gaining diet strategy soon - gotta do a couple things first.
 
Woof I can't gain lbm or strength if my bodyfat is too low. I think this may be true for most women. Certainly I don't want to get "fat", but do still make gains with bodyfat 15-18%. I look at it in a seasonal or cyclic way. Of course your experience would different due to age, genetics etc. I just try to keep a healthy balance and not get freaked out about wt or %'s. I can look back at my records and see how much wt I was handling at any given time and know by the date my approx bodywt. But I would give a general answer and say that yes one would expect to gain some fat along with the lbm. For me my best gains come when I'm at the upper end say around 18%.
 
When I am gaining, like last time from 114 to 152, All I do is make sure I am eating twice my target bodyweight in protein, taking in at least 1 gallon of water a day, don't care about the carbs or fat, I get more than plenty of both. Training of course is the same if I am gaining or losing, I don't do any PR while losing, but the workouts are identical. Cardio, uhh yeah, I do cardio like 4 weeks out of the year total, no cardio at all, I like to get big so I can lift the heavy weight to build the big muscles :) I just eat like a horse and lift like one and the weight comes right on, then after about 6-9 months lean down to where you have an 8 pack in the abs and see what kind of muscle you gained :) Thats the way I like to do it :)
 
I just thought Id throw this into the pot:
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/index.htm
It is a list of articles on John Berardi's site. Much of the stuff is pretty basic for the regulars on the board but the "recent updates" section (on the right) has some interesting new stuff. In his "massive eating" diet (under "nutrition"), for bulking he pretty much recommends figuring out how many cals you need on a TRAINING day and then eating this many calories every day (he trains 4 days, rests 3 days, which for him gives a 3000cal surplus per week). He goes on to talk about only eating protein + carb or protein + fat meals, as many on this site already do.

JJFigure, I will work up to 7x4 sets for squats and maybe deads this fall and see how it works. Sounds exhausting, though!

Val, I also think I will have to gain some fat to make real strength gains (and to give myself a break mentally) - I will prob top out at maybe 16 or 17%, though so it is not too much of a PIA to lose it back next spring (and hopefully some more).

Brickgirl, damn!!! 152 => 114. You must have some STRONG willpower, girl :shocked: ! I did see your "ab transformation" thread , though, and was quite impressed. I will remember to up the protein, I am trying for 200g now and find it difficult, cuz I love bread, pasta, cereal, you name it.
 
My BF and I have both decided to hold off competing again until spring, and we both want to gain LBM, so my task has been to find a bulking diet that would allow us to build muscle without too much fat.

Mr. X's cyclical bulking diet is the route we're taking - with a few modifications. We both prefer pro-fat only or pro-carb only meals, so we're alternating macronutrient ratios in that manner. The diet has you cycle kcals on training (lifting) vs. non-training days. Mr. X's recommendation is bwx20 for training days and bwx10 for non-training days. Follow the sticky on the diet forum to read the logic behind the big shift in kcals.

However, my BF is currently at 12% BF, and eats approx bwx20 for maintenance (damn those men and their metabolisms!). So, we increased the ratios for him to bwx25 and bwx15. This gives him a weekly increase in kcals, but most of those kcals are happen on the days he needs them. Protein levels on training days are high - 45% of total kcals, which is 500+ grams for him. Whew - that's a lot of protein!

Mr. X recommended for women to use bwx15 (training) and bwx10 (non-training). That's a little low for me - my bwx15 = 2100 kcals and my normal maintenance is 2300 kcals. However, since I've been cutting for so long, these are my starting ratios. As my metabolism elevates, so will my kcals. I expect to at least jump to bwx17 and bwx12; maybe more depending on my skinfolds.

As far as food choices, I'm keeping it nice and clean. Non-training days include 1 starch (oats) in the am and the rest of my carbs are fibrous veggies; training days will include 2-3 starches (more oats, maybe rice) in the am with the rest of the carbs coming from fibrous veggies. The only exception is 1 cup of cott cheese before bed (man, I really missed cott cheese). I might even mix some yogurt in with the cott cheese on higher kcal days. I'll also throw a little fruit in the mix (apples, blueberries, grapefruit), but my carb focus is gonna be veggies.

I'm also adding red meat (lean cuts only) back into my diet - haven't figured out how much yet though.
 
I think that you are going to find it hard to train for strongman and put on muscle. You will get harder...but gaining size and weight is hard to do in-season for this sport...

B True
 
I'm working on increasing strength - therefore, gaining. I am not doing a BBer bulking cycle though, more focussing on getting enough protein, enough low GI carbs, more unsat fat and fresh fruit and veggies - y'know, healthy stuff.

I'm taking in about 2500 cals a day, bear in mind I do quite a bit of martial arts so I need quite a few cals to keep ticking over. I'm eating meals in helpings of 300-400 cals, and when I feel hungry, I have another. It's working. I think I'm overcoming my compulsive eating junk food problem better this way than trying to diet strictly for X weeks and then go back to the same ol' shit.

Low fat cottage cheese has SO MUCH protein!
And it tastes nicer than tuna!

I would like to see gains on my legs (I don't carry fat on my legs, I'm like a guy that way, so bigger legs = bigger muscles) and gains in my squat. My squat is lagging behind DL and bench right now as the karate doesn't do my squat training any good! I wanna get my squat up for a meet in November (yup, I have the training program in place to do this).

Oh, and my chest muscles are getting bigger too :D. I noticed this the other day as I was trying to do up the top of a dress - my boobs are the same size as before BUT I am larger all the way round my rib cage/chest area. This is good, imho.

As spatts recommended on here several times already, some carbs an hour before lifting make a big difference if like me you lift at the end of the working day when you are kinda tired.

Glutamine is helping me a lot with recovery too, so I can now get 2 leg w/o days in and 2 karate days without feeling overtrained.:D
 
Slinky, I reckon there are as many ways to gain as there are strength trainers. For me, I like to keep protein around the same or lower than when dieting, drop a few fibrous veggies for starchy carbs instead, and not worry about eating a oiece of chocolate now & then. If you choose to eat more carbs, you just keep calories a bit lower than if protein is higher, since they're less thermogenic than protein. I just watch the mirror and my clothes to se how I'm going, although I suppose a more scientific approach would be a good idea in future :)

I don't like to eat huge amounts of protein, because as a vegetarian, my choices are limited and pretty unappetising, and protein is expensive anyway.

I eat fewer starchy carbs on off days and extra fibrous ones. I put on 3 kgs over 8 weeks recently, which I thought was fair, considering I was having a problem getting all my meals in. My boobs are now bigger than I want them though, so it's back to the ol' diet for a while.

Training, just hard and heavy, don't increase volume.
 
"My boobs are now bigger than I want them though"

Thank you! I thought I was the only person out there who prefers smaller breasts when training. Last thing I want to do is worry about doubling up sports bras. :-) Just another reason to stay away from breast implants...
 
Gaining mode for me.

I havent boosted calories very much at all beyond my maintenance level since I dont want to add any LBM to the lower body. I use a version of the carb rotation diet I orignally found on this site.

My top priorities are my knobby shoulders and pipe cleaner arms.

Caloric intake ranges from 1700 to 2500 depending on the day.

"My boobs are now bigger than I want them though"

Yeah, I'm in that boat too. I think 'D' is just too damn big.
 
I have some thoughts on WHEN to take in the extra calories. It obviously makes sense to eat more on training days (to provide extra fuel for the actual training) but many seem to be suggesting eating only maintainence cals on rest days. I would think that since your body is actually "rebuilding" on those rest days that it would make sense to eat more than maintainence cals on rest days, too (although maybe not as much as on training days). Anyone agree?

It would also make sense to me to eat more carbs on training days and more protein on "rebuilding" days.
 
Here's a snipet from Mr. X's bulking basics 2 article:

Lower calorie intake enhances muscle insulin action and reduces hexosamine levels
Annie C. Gazdag1, Thomas J. Wetter2, Robert T. Davidson1, Katherine A. Robinson3, Maria G. Buse3, Alice J. Yee4, Lorraine P. Turcotte4, and Gregory D. Cartee1,2
Biodynamics Laboratory, Departments of 1 Nutritional Sciences and 2 Kinesiology, University of Wisconsin, Madison, Wisconsin 53706; 3 Department of Medicine, Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina 29425; and 4 Department of Exercise Sciences, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, California 90089

Previous studies have demonstrated enhanced insulin sensitivity in calorie-restricted [CR, fed 60% ad libitum (AL) one time daily] compared with AL-fed rats. To evaluate the effects of reduced food intake, independent of temporal differences in consumption, we studied AL (unlimited food access)-fed and CR (fed one time daily) rats along with groups temporally matched for feeding [fed 3 meals (M) daily]: MAL and MCR, eating 100 and 60% of AL intake, respectively. Insulin-stimulated glucose transport by isolated muscle was increased in MCR and CR vs. AL and MAL; there was no significant difference for MCR vs. CR or MAL vs. AL. Intramuscular triglyceride concentration, which is inversely related to insulin sensitivity in some conditions, did not differ among groups. Muscle concentration of UDP-N-acetylhexosamines [end products of the hexosamine biosynthetic pathway (HBP)] was lower in MCR vs. MAL despite unaltered glutamine-fructose-6-phosphate aminotransferase activity (rate-limiting enzyme for HBP). These results indicate that the CR-induced increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle is attributable to an altered amount, not timing, of food intake and is independent of lower triglyceride concentration. They further suggest that enhanced insulin action might involve changes in HBP.

I am pretty sure of the fact that you do not have to understand the study itself, all you need to do is take a look at the title. Now, we are clear on the fact: Lower Calorie intake enhances muscle insulin action and reduces hexosamine levels. The main point of this would be the “INCREASE IN MUSCLE INSULIN ACTION”, which at first sight might seem like the newest bullshit fad in dieting, but I’ll be frankly honest with you: it’s totally true. As a result, I will base my Simple-Bulking Up-Part 2 on this study, and I will lead you the reader to a revolutionary way of bulking…let’s call it, just for the purpose of this article, cycle-bulking.

The name, Cycle-Bulking, should pretty much explain itself, basically you cycle your calories from low to high for maximum results, yet this differs from Protein/Carb Cycling because the way we are looking at this is NOT carb/protein but more of a overall calories intake. Since, we know that low-calories will induce better insulin action, and high-calories will put on mass, I would say this is the perfect combination for the average-bodybuilder to put on mass.

Let’s begin by looking at the way you can cycle your calories, and why…First, you must understand that you need pre and post workout nutrition to grow and, therefore, I do not recommend going low-cal on your training days. Instead, you follow the simple equation: workout=high-calories…no workout=low-calories
 
Here's my take on Mr. X's theory - on non-training days, you actually go BELOW maintenance kcals to induce almost a fasting state, so when you go ABOVE maintenance kcals on training days, you'll enhance insulin sensitivity and better ensure those kcals you're eating are used for muscle repair and not fat storage.

Does that make sense? Anyone else want to expand on this theory? Curious to hear what other's think about it.
 
anya said:
Gaining mode for me.

I havent boosted calories very much at all beyond my maintenance level since I dont want to add any LBM to the lower body. I use a version of the carb rotation diet I orignally found on this site.

My top priorities are my knobby shoulders and pipe cleaner arms.


But wouldn't eating less also effect your ability to build your shoulders and arms? You know, genetics and all...

Are you training upper and lower body differently?
 
JJFigure said:
Here's my take on Mr. X's theory - on non-training days, you actually go BELOW maintenance kcals to induce almost a fasting state, so when you go ABOVE maintenance kcals on training days, you'll enhance insulin sensitivity and better ensure those kcals you're eating are used for muscle repair and not fat storage.


Concept has been around for over 20 years:

Zig Zag Diet
ABCD diet are other names for it
 
ABCD diet was quite a bit more extreme - 2 weeks very high kcal followed by 2 weeks low kcal. I like Mr. X's approach because it's cycling in higher levels of kcals when you need them; it also isn't a free-for-all approach but a controlled approach.
 
SteelWeaver said:
Slinky, I reckon there are as many ways to gain as there are strength trainers.

Steel: which is exactly why I decided to throw this question/thread up. Thought that it may be an interesting discussion, especially for newbies.

Here's something that's wild and to show women newbies that LBM gains do not "bulk" you up: In December, I weighed 120lbs, approximately 11% BF. Yup, purtee lean. NOW? I weigh 128 - 129lbs, and have gained just a tad more BF.

Back in December, I was wearing sizes of small and 0-1 (sometimes 2, depending upon the brand). And now? Sizes of small and 0-2. Still.

And waistline is still at 24inches.

I find that women can handle more volume than men. I'm not saying that women can do umpteen thousands of reps, while even during a bulking phase. But, during a bulking phase, if a man is using 3-5 reps; a woman can make that 5-7 reps (for example). I hover around the 4-6 reps range. I find that works best for me.

This is an interesting discussion and I do appreciate the input. Keep it up. Very kewl.
 
But wouldn't eating less also effect your ability to build your shoulders and arms? You know, genetics and all...

My bb knowledge is admittedly meager, however, I do have a plan. Here's my reasoning: buttocks, quads, hams are comparatively huge muscle groups and biceps and delts are small. Gaining a pound of LBM across both arms would be a hell of a lot more impressive than the same amount on my legs. I always eat a surplus of calories but since I am most interested in building arms and delts (secondarily back and chest) I stay pretty close to maintenance level all the time.

I do train lower body differently. I do very light leg workouts. Everyone already thinks I do a LOT of deep squats as I have large, very rounded buttocks and full thighs already. Not fat, just thick and full. I want to concentrate on balancing my physique as I think I look very lopsided naturally.
 
JJFigure said:
ABCD diet was quite a bit more extreme - 2 weeks very high kcal followed by 2 weeks low kcal. I like Mr. X's approach because it's cycling in higher levels of kcals when you need them; it also isn't a free-for-all approach but a controlled approach.

...the concept is still the same.....alternating high and low cal totals with them averaging to be lower than main. for loss and higher for gain.
 
"...the concept is still the same.....alternating high and low cal totals with them averaging to be lower than main. for loss and higher for gain."

True.

Have you ever used this approach for bulking? And if so, was it successful?
 
Don't mean to take away from the current discussion, but just had a thought.

Wouldn't it be kewl to tell a woman, "time to beef up!" - w/out the woman becoming horrified at the thought?

I'm gonna try that this weekend *evil laugh* :D

Okay back to our regularly scheduled program.....
 
I don't see how someone could compete in bodybuilding or fitness and worry about beefing up, I love to gain 35 pounds after each contest, I love the size, I hate to diet down, being lean sucks, eat eat eat, lift heavy lift heavy lift heavy, sleep sleep sleep, repeat :)
 
Well, BG: most women are horrified at the thought; hence, the word "tone". It's a nice, fluffy, safe word.

I know that most women on this site ain't fraid of "beefing up" or "gaining". And you forgot about "drink beer" in your list. :) Well, I'd have it in my list.
 
JJFigure said:
"...the concept is still the same.....alternating high and low cal totals with them averaging to be lower than main. for loss and higher for gain."

True.

Have you ever used this approach for bulking? And if so, was it successful?


Yes.....I found that regardless of other "supplement" usage...my gains seemed to be um....more solidified, if that makes sense.....I am TOTALLY against "bulking" for "bulking" sake.


buw - there is a school of thought that thinks that extreme bulking in addition to stretch position exercises makes it easier to gain "true" muscle.
 
"I am TOTALLY against "bulking" for "bulking" sake."

Again, I completely agree with you Corn. I don't think it's healthy to take your weight to any extreme, high or low. I'm happy to hear this approach worked for you; I'll keep you guys updated on our progress.
 
Thought I'd bump this and see if anyone has updates. I'm curious results from the women trying to gain LBM right now.

I'm up 2.5 lbs. of LBM from September - huge progress for me!
 
great post slinky!!!

i'm in my "bulking" phase right now too. i'm doing 5X5, so i'm going up in weight each week...i love it!

diet changes? i'm eating more protein and i've gone from low fat cottege cheese and skim milk to just plain old cottege cheese (tastes much better) and 2% milk. i'm eating lots of salads...i'm starting to get really sick of them...and sweet potatoes. other than that, my diet is about the same, just slightly bigger portions.

i haven't had any measurements taken, but my chest, back, & arms are looking bigger. my hams & quads are lagging behind, but my calves are looking good.

i have been doing very little cardio - every other week i'll go for a run with my best friend (we're running a 10K in a couple weeks), but that's all.
 
I'm gaining...I've gained ten pounds since I started lifting a few months back. (I had initially gained ten, then lost five, now I've gained that back.) I'm 5'8" and 164 pounds, fairly lean.

I'm vegetarian. I'm doing the shakes and bars (so I don't start drooling at the sight of a big fat steak), as well as doing my best to make intelligent choices with food.

Last night for dinner I ate a small pizza (yes, I ate the whole thing) with a dark wheat crust, traditional tomato sauce, mozzarella and swiss cheese, black beans, spinach, pineapple, and walnuts. God bless Pieworks.
 
I guess I posted that too soon. After talking it over at length with the hubby (who's been waking up at 3 am, starving, needing to have a shake and going back to sleep unsatisfied), we're adding meat back into our diet (after 8 years!). I actually ate chicken last night.

Friday night we're going out for that big fat steak.
 
I definitely need to lose fat, but I have no problems with gaining the LBM. I know that only helps me in the long run. So, I try to eat clean for the most part. Even though I'm trying to lose, I hope newbie gains help me add LBM anyway.

I like this thread. We (well maybe not the ladies here) need to develop a different mind-set about their weight.

Wend, you're killing me.
 
I'm just trying to maintain right now. After the holidays I want to gain some mass. I just nned to concentrate on maintaining right nowl....lol, I'm with Anya....I have a built lower body and need to bulk up the top a little.
 
I've been trying to gain for a couple months. I hadn't thought I was making too much progress, but a relative I haven't seen since Xmas just told me that my arms were "getting awfully" big. (A massive 11 inches ...) Yay!
 
Bumping this because this is where I'm at right now and wondering if anyone else was also working on gaining weight.
 
The Shadow said:
higher protein
slightly higher carbs
better quailty training...not more


agreed...I'm in a gaining mode...Higher protein for sure, slightly higher carbs, switched from low intesity/60min cardio 5-6 hrs/week to interval training for 20min 3x/wk. Changed up the lifting program. ( I do this every 6 weeks.) Added 75mg of Deca to my diet/wk.
 
I figured I wasn't alone. I'm cutting out my cardio until mid-late March. I know from the past that I can't gain if I'm doing much of it (though I just can't seem to give up a 15-20 minute light cooldown post lift). My protein, cals, and carbs are up. I always drop my carbs in the summer but I have them kicked up to 30% of my overall daily cal intake.

Though now I'm pondering trying Mr. X's diet mentioned earlier in this thread as it sounds interesting.

Changing up your lifting program is a great thing boscoe! Change is good for the body. Plus it's dull to do the same routines for months on end.
 
I've been told it is good to shock the muscles by changing up your routine about every six weeks...same with legths of diets...6 weeks. I want to put on some mean size for this summer, and I'm taking a month off in march to recoop from my boob havoc so I figure I have about 6 more weeks before my surgery. During March I'm going to have to really keep my protein level high, and watch the crap out of my fat and carbs....and after march it will be time to concentrate on losing all the fat I'm going to gain in March!
 
Now I'm keeping my carbs low, trying to lose some fat without losing muscle. I'm keeping my protein high and fat moderate, and continuing to train hard. I'm doing some cardio, but not more than half an hour at a time (about three or four times a week). I'm down to 167...I had gotten up to 176. I finally figured out my bf with calipers. I'm at 22%.
 
Wend, how tall are you? One more question...Where the hell did you find the calipers? I've looked at every sports store in town. I guess I might have to resort to ordering them online.
 
I'm 5'8".

We got them at a local fitness store...very cheap. They're the Accumeasure (sp?) ones, the only ones that you can measure yourself with. They're cleverly designed, with a little thumb press that clicks into place when you've got the right pressure, at which point you can pull it away from you and read it...there's a sliding marker that stays in place even after you've released the calipers. They've got instructions and a table. A very good investment of about $7.
 
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