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The Old 5x5 routine.........

JKurz1

JKurz1

Banned
Hey boys - just still getting into Madcow's routine, but someone had asked me what the difference is between this is the old 5x5.......I'm not sure I remember the old one...it went something like

Chest/Tris

BENCH 5X5
INCLINE DBELL 2X8-10
DECLINE 2X8-10
CLOSE GRIP 5X5
DIPS 2X8
TRIABLGE 2X8?

HOW DOES THIS COMPARE?
 
jkurz1, are you asking about needsize's 5x5? I believe his was the first one around here...could be wrong...
 
There is really no 'original 5x5' in terms of a program. It is a concept, a training theory, "5x5" is a nice, simple way to package and present that theory in a way so that most people will not screw it up.

The concept has been around for God knows how long. Bill Starr and Tommy Suggs were heavily influenced by a lot of what Doug Hepburn was doing. Bill Pearl built world-class strength and a world-class physique with this concept. Starr and Suggs' felt that 4-6 sets of 4-6 reps was a good range that just about anybody could progress with, it is high enough reps that you're out of that neural range, and it is low enough to allow progression of strength. They concluded this from a lifetime of competing, training, and working with other athletes.

Starr figured that 4-6 sets of 4-6 reps was a little complicated, and people would probably screw it up, he and Suggs decided that 5x5 was nice, effective, simple, and just about impossible to screw up.

Originally, Starr's program built a base by training M-W-F or Tues-Thurs-Sat.....the Big 3 lifts were the Back Squat, Power Clean, and Flat Bench. Flat bench was in place of incline because many hig hschool gyms didn't have incline benches at the time, but Starr admitts that he feels inclines are a better choice for an athlete because of the shoulder recruitment.

Over the eyars people have personalized this. Those who do not need explosive strength and/or do not know how to clean correctly can deadlift or barbell row...you can OHP or Incline instead of Flat Bench, etc......

Basically, there is no "old 5x5".....it is a concept of progressively getting better at a squat, a back lift (pull), and an upper body press over a set number of sets/reps on set days so that you have a constant and workload is quantifiable, thus allowing a clear, measurable plan for progress.

The concept is so simple, it's beautiful, once you have good form and understand the concept, the only way to fuck it up is to overcomplicate, micromanage and overanalyze it.
 
JKurz1 said:
GOOD HELP buddy.....lol.....newbs..........
Click to expand...

Not trying to help you. You're a moron. You never seem to grasp anything the first, second, or third time around. I don't know where you scurried off to for so long, but please do so again. These boards don't need to flooding them with your threads asking the same shit over and over again. It's not too difficult to go find the information out yourself. That's the reason casual has up the fucking training vault. There's a link to the old 5x5 program there.

"newbs"? Care to elaborate on that? "newbs" is short for "newbie", in case you didn't know. A newbie is someone new to something. A beginner. A novice. Funny that I've been here for 3-4 years now, huh? Makes me a real newb. Not to mention if I was a newb, that'd be even more hysterical - 'cause I know so much about this shit already. Damn, I'm good.

..............lol.............fuck you....................stupid jkurz..........haha......................newb lamer.............
 
BiggT said:
There is really no 'original 5x5' in terms of a program. It is a concept, a training theory, "5x5" is a nice, simple way to package and present that theory in a way so that most people will not screw it up.

The concept has been around for God knows how long. Bill Starr and Tommy Suggs were heavily influenced by a lot of what Doug Hepburn was doing. Bill Pearl built world-class strength and a world-class physique with this concept. Starr and Suggs' felt that 4-6 sets of 4-6 reps was a good range that just about anybody could progress with, it is high enough reps that you're out of that neural range, and it is low enough to allow progression of strength. They concluded this from a lifetime of competing, training, and working with other athletes.

Starr figured that 4-6 sets of 4-6 reps was a little complicated, and people would probably screw it up, he and Suggs decided that 5x5 was nice, effective, simple, and just about impossible to screw up.

Originally, Starr's program built a base by training M-W-F or Tues-Thurs-Sat.....the Big 3 lifts were the Back Squat, Power Clean, and Flat Bench. Flat bench was in place of incline because many hig hschool gyms didn't have incline benches at the time, but Starr admitts that he feels inclines are a better choice for an athlete because of the shoulder recruitment.

Over the eyars people have personalized this. Those who do not need explosive strength and/or do not know how to clean correctly can deadlift or barbell row...you can OHP or Incline instead of Flat Bench, etc......

Basically, there is no "old 5x5".....it is a concept of progressively getting better at a squat, a back lift (pull), and an upper body press over a set number of sets/reps on set days so that you have a constant and workload is quantifiable, thus allowing a clear, measurable plan for progress.

The concept is so simple, it's beautiful, once you have good form and understand the concept, the only way to fuck it up is to overcomplicate, micromanage and overanalyze it.
Click to expand...
Actually the one he's referencing has nothing in common with those besides the fact that it performs the squat, dead, bench in 5 sets of 5 reps. It took me a while to figure out why I kept seeing "5x5" posts that had 3 day splits with a lot of assistance work on this board and others. It's not a bad program or anything (certainly better than what passes for most programs used by BBers) just absolutely nothing in common besides the use of a rep range and the name. Made my head spin for a while before I finally figured it out as Bill Starr and all the 5x5 programs over the years were basically unknown to BBing.
 
Madcow2 said:
Actually the one he's referencing has nothing in common with those besides the fact that it performs the squat, dead, bench in 5 sets of 5 reps. It took me a while to figure out why I kept seeing "5x5" posts that had 3 day splits with a lot of assistance work on this board and others. It's not a bad program or anything (certainly better than what passes for most programs used by BBers) just absolutely nothing in common besides the use of a rep range and the name. Made my head spin for a while before I finally figured it out as Bill Starr and all the 5x5 programs over the years were basically unknown to BBing.
Click to expand...

I see.....makes sense now
 
both rotuines appear really solid and focus on staying away from the overtraining rut that 99% tend to fall in......or, 99% either over/undertrain...........i like mixing the rep range up a little each day, only reason I would tend to lead towards Needsize's routine......oh, that and I have seen pics of NS.....lol...kidding.
 
JKurz1 said:
both rotuines appear really solid and focus on staying away from the overtraining rut that 99% tend to fall in......or, 99% either over/undertrain...........i like mixing the rep range up a little each day, only reason I would tend to lead towards Needsize's routine......oh, that and I have seen pics of NS.....lol...kidding.
Click to expand...

the NS 5x5 has some good principles, but it is lacking in a few IMO.

the program calls for cutting the volume and frequency when you hit the wall on individual lifts, not on all the lifts at the same time. This doesn't work so well because the body gets overtrained as a whole, not as an individual unit. Futhermore, the frequency the program calls for is not adequate. You should be performing core lifts twice per week, sometimes 3 times, but never once.

honestly, though, I know you won't listen to what I have to say. You are a naive young fool who needs to suck it up and stick with a good program from start to finish. Switching up your routine every week is just absurd and probably one of the worst things you can do from a progression poiint of view.

Edit: I said the body gets overtrained as a whole, which is true -- but I'd prefer to phrase it as the body accumulates fatigue as a whole.
 
There's nothing inherently wrong with over-training provided you don't take it into overtraining. It's just another factor which has to be managed as you systematically and frequently ask your body to do work in the upper reaches of its current capability.
 
Didn't you mean:
blut wump said:
There's nothing inherently wrong with over-reaching provided you don't take it into overtraining. It's just another factor which has to be managed as you systematically and frequently ask your body to do work in the upper reaches of its current capability.
Click to expand...
Kongrats on reaching a cool mil. All of my k hits to you probably came to less than 0.1% of your total :)
 
Now you're getting technical :). I meant 'over-training' as in simply training beyond your capacity for day-by-day or normal week-by-week recovery. As we know, this leads to over-reaching.

Thanks on the congrats. I don't value a K message less due to its having a low K-value. They are often the most valued, saying 'thanks' or 'congrats'.
 
All I was doing was finding out the differences for knowledge purposes...I've been on the same split for close to a year now and it's working well. 2 on one off......I do the big 3 once a week, but too each his own. As for the comparison, why could one do something like this in an effort to hit the big movements more than just once.

M - CHEST/CLVS (BENCH 5X5) - 9 SET TOTAL

T - DELTS/QUADS (OH MILT PRESS, BOX SQUAT 5X5)

W - BACK (DEADS 5X5)

THR - ARMS/HAMMYS (STR8 CURLS 5X5, GOODMRNS 5X5

FRI - BENCH ONLY 5X5

SAT - MILITARY AND DEADS 5X5

SUN - OFF
 
That's better, but you're missing most of the point: the plan for progress and fatigue management is even more important than the movements or their organization.

How can you read the bigass 5x5 thread and not see this?
 
JKurz1 said:
As for the comparison, why could one do something like this in an effort to hit the big movements more than just once.
Click to expand...

If the big movements are the most productive at adding muscle (and this is fairly agreed even in BBing) - wouldn't you like to increase them and progress as fast as possible? This is the easiest way in the world to get big and add muscle to the body (obviously you have to eat enough to be gaining). There is no magic combination of crap that you are going to apply that will significantly alter or affect this relationship. Get the big lifts moving up in a non-heavily neural range as fast as possible and eat.

It's very simple and there is no need to complicate it. This is why so many guys add a ton of muscle with powerlifting programs like Westside, it's not that the program is geared specifically to hypertrophy, but merely that the big lifts are moving and they are eating. So it may be "suboptimal" from a hypertrophy standpoint but it tends to blow away most conventional BBing programs (which are supposed to be about hypertrophy but are largely shit) simply because it gets the most important thing right and doesn't screw around with all the bullshit. All the little nuances and technical garbage mean very little next to increasing capacity in the big lifts that matter and eating. Use a nice assortment of basic core exercises and worry about "shaping and isolating" when you actually have muscle and see an issue - don't shotgun everything and the kitchen sink at once and waste your limited capacity sacrificing gains. Apply targeted isolation work on an as needed basis and limit it as much as possible when the goal is to increase muscle mass. Too many people seem to think that their bodies will develop all kinds of distorted flaws if they aren't constantly doing tons of garbage isolation. The reality is that the body develops very much in proportion all on it's own and this is why the guys doing tons of arm work and not squatting or pulling are the guys with small arms where the guy in the powerrack squatting and pulling doing some basic curls and extensions once a week has guns.

If I were you, I would print this and read it 2x a day. Get whatever you have in your head from bodybuilding mags and these boards out and cement this relationship (you need it because you've been here for a while and are still missing it). For training, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat - maybe it's 5x5, could be WSB, heck tons of stuff can work - but if you want to add muscle most "conventional bodybuilding programs" that you see are akin to skinning rats because they don't know what a cat looks like. Take all the information you think you know about cats, because it's really about rats, and start over. I know that sucks, but it's really that bad.
 
Last edited:
Madcow2 said:
If the big movements are the most productive at adding muscle (and this is fairly agreed even in BBing) - wouldn't you like to increase them and progress as fast as possible? This is the easiest way in the world to get big and add muscle to the body (obviously you have to eat enough to be gaining). There is no magic combination of crap that you are going to apply that will significantly alter or affect this relationship. Get the big lifts moving up in a non-heavily neural range as fast as possible and eat.

It's very simple and there is no need to complicate it. This is why so many guys add a ton of muscle with powerlifting programs like Westside, it's not that the program is geared specifically to hypertrophy, but merely that the big lifts are moving and they are eating. So it may be "suboptimal" from a hypertrophy standpoint but it tends to blow away most conventional BBing programs (which are supposed to be about hypertrophy but are largely shit) simply because it gets the most important thing right and doesn't screw around with all the bullshit. All the little nuances and technical garbage mean very little next to increasing capacity in the big lifts that matter and eating. Use a nice assortment of basic core exercises and worry about "shaping and isolating" when you actually have muscle and see an issue - don't shotgun everything and the kitchen sink at once and waste your limited capacity sacrificing gains. Apply targeted isolation work on an as needed basis and limit it as much as possible when the goal is to increase muscle mass. Too many people seem to think that their bodies will develop all kinds of distorted flaws if they aren't constantly doing tons of garbage isolation. The reality is that the body develops very much in proportion all on it's own and this is why the guys doing tons of arm work and not squatting or pulling are the guys with small arms where the guy in the powerrack squatting and pulling doing some basic curls and extensions once a week has guns.

If I were you, I would print this and read it 2x a day. Get whatever you have in your head from bodybuilding mags and these boards out and cement this relationship (you need it because you've been here for a while and are still missing it). For training, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat - maybe it's 5x5, could be WSB, heck tons of stuff can work - but if you want to add muscle most "conventional bodybuilding programs" that you see are akin to skinning rats because they don't know what a cat looks like. Take all the information you think you know about cats, because it's really about rats, and start over. I know that sucks, but it's really that bad.
Click to expand...

Bravo!!! :beer: :dance2: post of the month. jkrurz, get it trhough your goddamn thick skull already.
 
view said:
Bravo!!! :beer: :dance2: post of the month. jkrurz, get it trhough your goddamn thick skull already.
Click to expand...

It won't happen.

Chances are he hasn't been using any routine for the past year as he claims. He's simply switching back and forth, asking the same questions time and again, and staying where he was when I joined these fucking boards.
 
If it were up to me, he would be banned. I be if you tabulated the amount of bandwith he has wasted on this board by asking naive questions, it would make the C & C guys look like nothing.
 
My favorite was when he thought himself qualified enough to "train" another athlete, despite clearly not understanding basic training theory. How could you post 8,000 times on one of the internet's best boards yet know so little?
 
Protobuilder said:
My favorite was when he thought himself qualified enough to "train" another athlete, despite clearly not understanding basic training theory. How could you post 8,000 times on one of the internet's best boards yet know so little?
Click to expand...

You must spread your karma around before you give it to Protobuilder again.
 
Protobuilder said:
My favorite was when he thought himself qualified enough to "train" another athlete, despite clearly not understanding basic training theory. How could you post 8,000 times on one of the internet's best boards yet know so little?
Click to expand...
you should chack out the c&c forum - there lots of high post count/low IQ combos :D

No offense Blut Wump - there are exceptions.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
you should chack out the c&c forum - there lots of high post count/low IQ combos :D

No offense Blut Wump - there are exceptions.
Click to expand...

Shh, you're giving him false hope. No there aren't.
 
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