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The case against bulk cycles

Dial_tone

MVP
EF VIP
I see alot of people, often newbies, doing so-called bulking cycles followed almost immediately by a cutting cycle. On the bulking cycle they eat everything that doesn't move out of the way in an effort to gain as much mass as possible, only to lose a good portion of it in the post-cycle therapy and cutting cycle that follows. This is, in my opinion, an extremely inefficient use of time, effort, money and anabolic steroids. Let me explain why I think so.
When you gain weight even following a relatively clean diet you can pretty much assume for every 4 lbs of muscle you gain you'll add 1 lb of fat. On an "eat everything I can" diet that ratio that ratio may increase to 4:2. This is before factoring in the additional water weight that certain aromatizing steroids (such as Dbol, Anadrol, Test, to a lesser extent Deca) cause. When you gain fat weight two things happen. The size of your fat cells increases AND the total number of fat cells increases. When you lose weight the size of your fat cells decreases but the total number stays the same. This is fact, not what I simply "think happens". This means when you come off that cutting cycle those extra fat cells you gained during that bulking cycle are still there dying to absorb every single gram of fat you take in. If you want to get rid of those extra fat cells you'll need to plan on liposuction. How many more fat cells do you think you'll end up with after 4-5 bulking cycles? Have you considered how hard it will get to stay lean in the future? You're setting yourself up for a dependancy on fat cutting drugs.
A cutting cycle, even when done by the pros, WILL cost you muscle. Even with anabolic steroids it's very difficult to lose more than a lb a week without costing some muscle. In a recent MD Ahmad Haidar says in the offseason he's 250 lbs at 10% bodyfat. My math tells me at 225 lbs he'd be at 0% bodyfat. In actuality he probably competes around 3% bodyfat which would put him near 229, yet in the same article he says he competes at 218. What happened to the extra 10-12 lbs? It could be water but I think he's factoring in some muscle loss as well. What about Ronnie competing in the Mr. O at 260'ish when Chad says he could've weighed 285 if he wanted to? He's losing muscle there too, albeit intentionally.
You regular Joes can rest assured that cutting cycle is costing you some of the hard earned muscle you gained during that last bulking cycle.
Wouldn't you rather do two cycles where you can eat as much as you want rather than one feast cycle and one famine cycle? You'll build much more muscle on the former. If you gain 25 lbs on a bulking cycle offhand I'd estimate it's 12 lbs muscle, 6 lbs fat and 7 lbs of water. In the subsequent cutting cycle you may lose 2 lbs of muscle while trying to ditch that 13 lbs of fat & water. That means a net muscle gain of only 10 lbs. What if you could gain 12 lbs of muscle, 3 lbs of fat and little water? Would you take it? Here's how.
I suggest doing a “Clean bulking” cycle instead. WTF is that? Simple...eat like you're 6-7 weeks out from a contest, only in unlimited amounts. Chicken/turkey breasts, steak, lean cuts of meat, rice, potatoes, pasta, breads. Only allow yourself to eat junkfood on the weekends. That extra fat in your diet isn't helping you build quality muscle and you're consuming enough carbohydrate to fuel your workouts and recovery. Now when this clean bulk cycle ends you don't have 10 lbs of extra fat to deal with. You can do post cycle recovery followed by your time off then go right into another clean bulk cycle, plus you don't have to waste money on weak anabolics like winny. You'll still have nearly all the muscle you gained first time around and you're about to double it on the next cycle. Not to mention it'll be easier to buy clothes because your weight won't fluctuate as much. Trust me on this...I've outgrown a 46-short suit which is the biggest you find off the rack in a short size.
Save the cutting cycles for contest preparation. Maximize the effectiveness of your steroids by using them the way they were intended...to build huge muscles. If you're an ectomorph then the traditional bulk cycle is a good idea, but then an ectomorph shouldn't need a cutting cycle in the first place.

With Bulk/Cut cycles you take 3 steps forward then 1 step back.
With Clean Bulk cycles you simply take 2 steps forward.
 
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Good post DT. Why is it when you type something on this subject people say "Good post" but when I do it on the training or diet board, people say, "Good luck... hope you enjoy being small forever." Oh well.
 
bro i use to bulk up with winstrol depot at 50mg/day. all i gain is muscle, not even a single gram of fat. i have discoreved that winstrol depot work good for me when bulking but i dont think im gonna use winstrol again since the joint pain can be really hard, besides, winstrol can be very hard to your liver.


Chaco
 
Great post. I completely agree. Last year I bulked like hell and gained a bunch of fat. I definitely gained muscle too, but I lost so much of it when I had to drop all that fat. I'm eating much cleaner now and still adding mass while staying pretty lean. I don't know what I was thinking before. I never want to go above 12% bf again, and even that seems too high for my liking.
 
Man, I was all hyped up for a good flamefest too. You guys suck!

LOL
 
No flames from me... I couldn't agree more. And I like to look like a BB even when off, not like some fat ass football linemen.

DrG
 
Agree'd but I assume once they've reached a certain level of fatness, as long as they don't exceed that during the next cycle no 'new' fat cells will be created, just old ones will become larger again with fat....

Anyway I know exactly what you mean, I listened to people that said eat everything in sight, I did that and I went up from like 9% to about 15% bf in like 3 months, then when cutting I lost a bunch of muscle..

At the moment I'm eating around 3000 calories per day, and staying around 8% bodyfat while making gains, I eat mostly clean, sugar almost never.. but occasionally I'll have some.. carbs are mostly low-med GI and I usually center them around exercise so I have energy to perform... or after.. when my stores are depleted.. and never within 3 hours before bed.. it works well.

I've found atleast with myself that once a certain type/amount of calories is exceeded it's almost completly useless for muscle gains and fat is being un-nescaserrily gained...

I think the eat everything in sight statements are said by fat people that wish to make it seem as though they are practicing these methods for a greater benefit, when really perhaps not enough discipline is there to stop eating junk.
 
My god this is a good post....This is what I usually do, But my last cycle I ate to much shit...Burger King, etc... and believe it or not maltodextrin mad me very bloated and fat...I was consuming WAY to many carbs in the from of maltodextrin...WAY overrated supplement...I would use it post workout only...The funny thing is is I got up to 240-245 and I'm actually a good bit stronger at 220-225 than I ever was then...Karma to you DT....GREAT ADVICE
 
This is such a good post. I fell into the whole bulk till you are fat thing, and ended up being really fat. Still trying to "cut" after so long. Almost a whole year wasted on this idea, just cause I brought into this.

Also, I had never heard about the "new fat cells get created," wish I had as I would have never done this stupid experiment on myself.

-sk
 
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Great post, I'm dieting off the "eat everything in sight" bulking diet now and it's a pain in the ass. From here on out, it's quality lean bulking all the way.
 
I fell into the same trap SK did. If I remember correctly we even ended up with a similiar look.

I have since learned my lesson. I took a 5 week break and during that time I ate good foods, but in 'normal' amounts. I lost a few inches off my waist, and felt better for it. I had let it get up to 36/8 inches. Now that doesn't seem too big for a nearly 6'4 guy, but when I am very lean, I can get into a 30/31 no problem at all, so that was a BIG increase.

Now I have cut out all the bad stuff. No cakes, no sweets. I only eat icecream once a week, a small bowl. The rest of the time it's quality carbs (and not in crazy amounts like before), and tons of protein. I even mix most of my shakes in water now, except for the bedtime one which is now mixed in half milk, half water.

Tp is my base from now on as well. No more mega bloat from the eth and cyp!
 
Great Post. Ive never actually done a bulk due to the fact that Ive been playing football but I was thinking about it for this winter. I cant imagine eating that much food every day. I think as long as u r providing the excess clean calories growth should occur with minimal fat gain. My last cycle I shot for lean mass and it worked great. Lowered my bf from 9 to 7 and still went up in weight about 10 pounds.
 
The karma has been rolling in like a train. I wasn't expecting that. I should've said something useful a long time ago. LOL
 
I agree. From what I've seen, eating anything in a bulking cycle leads to alot of unwanted fat that is hard to get off. Definatly recommend a 'clean' bulking cycle.
 
Totally correct! That is why I stay lean with abs tight year round. When I use to get ready for shows I would lose 40# and 5-8# of lean. Now I lose 15# and 1-2# of lean. Bulking to the point that your fat is assinine.

Quad
 
Wonderful post, DT! 10-15lb gain of Lean Body Mass per cycle is more realistic and attainable than gaining 25-30lbs and only winding up with 10lbs of LBM then having to lose 10-20lbs of fat and water.
 
DT, I actually have put a lot of thought into everything you posted, and I made the decision to give this idea a try, I actually started 2 weeks ago. Last year I went from 195lbs to 235 within 3 months, so you know there was a lot of fat that came with that. I had to work my ass off to get rid of it all, I would guess that I went from 8% BF to about 18%, not good, of course I thought I was getting huge and doing the right thing. Well after cutting down to about 7% BF this past June, i have decided never to do that again, I am going to keep with some cardio, keep my diet clean and only eat junk on friday night and saturday.
 
excellent post brother!!

I've to start and eat cleaner from now on!! No more 'eat everything you see crap'. I had my body fat measured using calipers the other day and I nearly feinted when the guy told me I had 20% body fat. At the moment I'm on a bulking cycle but still better start eating clean or I'll pay the price later!! :(
 
Great post DT,

I also think that it is beneficial to already be fairly lean to get the most out of your AS. I don't think you should be bulking at all if you're already over 15% bf. Karma.
 
Your right on brother. I wish I figured this out when I was younger. I used to go from 280s in the off-season to 225 to 230 on stage. WTF? I look back at it now and laugh. No wonder I thought the diets were pure hell....If I ever did it again, I'd start the diet around 8-9% bf and only have to lose 20lbs or so, including water. You'd stay much bigger and much harder.

Good post.
 
Lift Chief said:
I've switched to doing only clean bulk cycles... fat is just so much harder to get off than it is to put on.
A MAN TO THAT. i have not work out for 2 1/2 months and only lost 5bls. eating clean this the best thing to keep mass.;)
 
Great post DT, I'm definitly with you here. I tried the eating everything in site last cycle, got 4 weeks into it (10 weeker) and realised that I'd lost all my abs, and had only put on about 15lbs. I was gutted, so decided to cut my calories big time, I was really depressed. Anyway I got the abs back but managed to completey balls up the cycle. Gained about 4lbs lbm total. What a waste of gear.

Definitly just gonna eat clean from now on!! ( I hated stuffing my face with flapjacks all day anyway)
 
nice, very informative cause im a newbie myself and just did a bulking cycle, got some fat cause i ate anything that didnt move out of my way, now im trying to cut out the fat doing cardio but im losing some muscle alongside of it
 
karma to you brother, great post. I wish i had thought about this before my first cycle. It just makes plain old sense. Even before I read this I was planning to do so on my next cycle. I hated the huge fluctuation in my weight between water and fat gains. That's why I'm not interested in the dbol kickstart anymore. i'd much rather gain a clean 15 and keep 10 lean lbs, than gain 25 and end up a chunky 15lbs up.
 
i read somewhere that to gain weight and to lsoe weight you eat the same exact shit, only thing that varies is the amounts you eat. I mean this is a basic rule. Obviously you will take different supplements and things. But same foods are used with different amounts. I have been doing that. But while on the subject of eating clean.. i got a quick question.. if i boil white rice and make baked potatoes, and instant mashed potatoes ... are those good forms of carbs for the day before 5PM?
 
Food for thought:
At Burger King I can get two doublecheeseburgers for $3.00. That's a quick 60 grams of protein but it's also 60 grams of fat. If I do that every week day throughout an 8 week bulking cycle that's
2,400 grams of fat
or
21,600 calories
or
6 lbs of pure fat weight gain in 8 weeks JUST FROM LUNCH! All of a sudden a Met-Rx shake looks like a good idea.
 
Dial_tone said:
Food for thought:
At Burger King I can get two doublecheeseburgers for $3.00. That's a quick 60 grams of protein but it's also 60 grams of fat. If I do that every week day throughout an 8 week bulking cycle that's
2,400 grams of fat
or
21,600 calories
or
6 lbs of pure fat weight gain in 8 weeks JUST FROM LUNCH! All of a sudden a Met-Rx shake looks like a good idea.
This right here is what I was speaking of...Sure you need a lot of calories to build muscle but they need to be good CLEAN calories
 
Gotta bump this...man this is the most sano and sage advise I have seen in a long time anywhere!! It is so true. Shit, I think i was taught this exact thing in 7th grade biology!!

If people would only think about this...they would lean towards the European style of BB instead of the American Method of "food blister body building"

Go slow..and grow...and grow....and grow

Karma for you bro
 
One bump for the weekend.
 
I noticed no one in the "swain brotherhood" from the training board had anything to say here. Probably at the buffet right now, so didn't catch the thread.
 
Good infor Dial_tone!

What do your clean bulk cycles look like?

Alot of deca, winny, primo and tren??

Please give us and idea of your clean mass cyles

thanks
 
Quadsweep said:
lots! 23-25 cal per pound.

Quad
Yep..Usually I take in about 4800- 5100 cals per day...Thats about right for my wieght...I fluctuate between 225-230 lbs...
 
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BodyByFinaplix said:
I noticed no one in the "swain brotherhood" from the training board had anything to say here. Probably at the buffet right now, so didn't catch the thread.

Most of them are powerlifters and don't particularly worry about fat. :)

-sk
 
FCBX said:
Good infor Dial_tone!

What do your clean bulk cycles look like?

Alot of deca, winny, primo and tren??

Please give us and idea of your clean mass cyles

thanks

I think he's speaking more of food choices than drugs, I doubt you wanna try and bulk on winny
 
MrMakaveli said:


I think he's speaking more of food choices than drugs, I doubt you wanna try and bulk on winny
You can bulk or cut on any AAS, it's all about your diet...I have known people who bulked on winny and made awseome gains, with a lot less water retention than your traditional Test cycle
 
muscleup said:
You can bulk or cut on any AAS, it's all about your diet...I have known people who bulked on winny and made awseome gains, with a lot less water retention than your traditional Test cycle

After doing "bulking" cycles consisting of dbol, test, deca, etc... in the past, I'm going to try and do a bulking cycle of just anavar at 50mg a day. I cut with it and in my opinion nothing works better. If it goes well, thats it for me. Just two cycles a year consisting of just anavar. One cutting and one bulking.
 
tzan said:


After doing "bulking" cycles consisting of dbol, test, deca, etc... in the past, I'm going to try and do a bulking cycle of just anavar at 50mg a day. I cut with it and in my opinion nothing works better. If it goes well, thats it for me. Just two cycles a year consisting of just anavar. One cutting and one bulking.
Good deal keep us posted on that one...
 
Dial_tone said:
The karma has been rolling in like a train. I wasn't expecting that. I should've said something useful a long time ago. LOL

your advise will work great for most, althoug there will always be those with super high metabolism or who just cant eat, those fucks will have relie on some junk
 
On a slighty different note I think ties into dosages and cycle length.. I'm beginning to think that a longer cycles at moderate dosages are better. Forcing your body to pack on 35 pounds in 8 weeks and keep it is certainly harder than 35 pounds in 16 weeks. Adding an extra 1000 calories a day won't upset your body like adding an extra 2000 calories. Lose a week on a short cycle and it feels wasted, lose it on a long cycle and it's no big deal. When I first started researching the reccomended doses were 500 test, 400 deca, 50 mg dbol. I even got a few for a 1g of test, based on this being my first cycle. My "virgin receptors" would make the best gains , so why not go all out. Any question about lower doses was met with ridicule. Moderate doses worked for me, I hope I'll never need a gram of test.
 
muscleup said:
You can bulk or cut on any AAS, it's all about your diet...I have known people who bulked on winny and made awseome gains, with a lot less water retention than your traditional Test cycle

Yes, you can but you'd get more bang for the buck using EQ/Deca or tren than you would with winny or anavar. Anavar in effective doses is ridiculously expensive so I'd avoid both until they were absolutely necessary.
As far as drugs I didn't start this thread to make recommendations to people. I would just avoid more than one aromatizing drug at a time. A test/dbol/anadrol will put a boatload of weight on, but alot of it will be weight you don't want.
 
serge said:


your advise will work great for most, althoug there will always be those with super high metabolism or who just cant eat, those fucks will have relie on some junk

The just can't eat is a poor excuss. Sure eating when you are not hungry, just because the clock says its time is hard, but not harder than squating 500 ibs for reps. That excuss just strikes me as laziness. Like people who don't like to lift heavy because
 
Quad, u say 23 -25 x bw for lean bulking. I know u stay extremely lean throughout the entire year. This much doesnt really add on much fat? Obviously when building muscle fat gain is inevitable but thats a ton of cals. Do u continue to do any cardio or just lift hard?
 
Best post I've read on EF thus far. I just started my 1st cycle and was about to follow eat till you turn blue to grow diet. I enjoy being lean/hate fat so thanks again for saving me a ton of work trying to lose fat afterwards...karma to you my friend.
 
^
 
outstanding post brother.....and i also agree with the fact that you can bulk on any drug, my diet was really really clean when i did a 6 week cycle of test prop. which, correct me if im wrong, is usually used as a cutting steroid and i gained 12 pounds and kept every bit of it.....diet was huge in that though
 
I might have actually read that post had you used the [ENTER] key every once in a while...
 
XBiker said:
I might have actually read that post had you used the [ENTER] key every once in a while...

I count 6 paragraphs, suggesting the ENTER key was used at least 6 times. Not reading it is definitely your loss.
 
You can keep it simple and use a long acting form of Test(ie.Enanthate, Omnadren/Sustanon, etc...)@500-1000mgs/wk with an anti-aromatse(ie.Arimidex, Femara, or Aromasin)to keep the water off and stay lean while eating clean to grow. This should be VERY effective for the average joe trying to add Lean Body Mass without having to use any of the exotic Gear.
 
serge said:


your advise will work great for most, althoug there will always be those with super high metabolism or who just cant eat, those fucks will have relie on some junk

i have a really high metabolism but eating junk food or fast food is a cop out.. if you need a large amount of cals then you should look into supplimenting with extra virgin olive oil and protein shakes.. its really that simple..

dense low gi carb sources like whole wheat pastsa, brown rice pasta and oatmeal will help as well..


when i bulk like this i stay really lean and the scale moves up quickly if i go to wendys or BK everyday the scale moves up quickly but i get more fat and less muscle..

we all should be looking to gain muscle if bulking not fat and crappy cals lead to fat not muscle

edit spelling
 
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Borg4902 said:
What about when your done with the bulking cycles and your still like 13%bf then its cool to cut right?

you'll want to hold off a while on cutting. This will give your body to adjust to the new gains and solidify them. Cutting to early, and you can wave bye-bye to those gains you worked so hard for.
 
That was a great post!So many people I currently workout with and have in the past try these multiple bulker cycles and only end up looking husky and stocky but not hard and muscular.I tend to eat fairly clean all year round.Im not saying you shouldnt eat heavy as far as calories-2900-4000 a day but try to keep it clean.To me diet is everything and any good pro ,novice or begginner bodybuilder would agree.Anybody new to this board would be wise to listen to dial-tone because he knows what he is talking about!
 
I was just saying the same thing to a friend last night. We both can put on mass no problem so why eat everything in sight. Now I'm dealing with shedding fat. I'm not doing another "bulking" cyce until I'm absolutely lean. Due to my body type I will bulk lean as you suggest and keep doing cardio. I'd rather put on only 10 pounds of lean mass than 30 pounds of shapeless mass.
 
For me a cutting cycle requires much more gear. Between 1 and 1.25gr of gear since I pretty don't take in more than 60 gr of carbs p/d. I look at other guys cycles and for the most part they do the oppsite which is use much more gear bulking.

Last cutter looked like this
Test 375mg
Primo 400-500mgs
Var 40mgs

However on a bulker since I can finally eat which is what you need to do in an ectomorph frame I take in more food with less gear. Come Dec. My cycle will look like this.

Sust 250mgs
Primo 300mgs
Dbol 25mgs
 
I used to do the eat everything bulk diet. But I now bulk with a clean diet and hard training. I've stayed very lean and still gained muscle size. I dropped my waist down 4in. and still weigh the same. I think everyone responds differently to certain A.S. Deca makes me hard and lean while it blows up my training partner. I guess its trial and error sometimes.
 
Dial_tone said:
I see alot of people, often newbies, doing so-called bulking cycles followed almost immediately by a cutting cycle. On the bulking cycle they eat everything that doesn't move out of the way in an effort to gain as much mass as possible, only to lose a good portion of it in the post-cycle therapy and cutting cycle that follows. This is, in my opinion, an extremely inefficient use of time, effort, money and anabolic steroids. Let me explain why I think so.
When you gain weight even following a relatively clean diet you can pretty much assume for every 4 lbs of muscle you gain you'll add 1 lb of fat. On an "eat everything I can" diet that ratio that ratio may increase to 4:2. This is before factoring in the additional water weight that certain aromatizing steroids (such as Dbol, Anadrol, Test, to a lesser extent Deca) cause. When you gain fat weight two things happen. The size of your fat cells increases AND the total number of fat cells increases. When you lose weight the size of your fat cells decreases but the total number stays the same. This is fact, not what I simply "think happens". This means when you come off that cutting cycle those extra fat cells you gained during that bulking cycle are still there dying to absorb every single gram of fat you take in. If you want to get rid of those extra fat cells you'll need to plan on liposuction. How many more fat cells do you think you'll end up with after 4-5 bulking cycles? Have you considered how hard it will get to stay lean in the future? You're setting yourself up for a dependancy on fat cutting drugs.
A cutting cycle, even when done by the pros, WILL cost you muscle. Even with anabolic steroids it's very difficult to lose more than a lb a week without costing some muscle. In a recent MD Ahmad Haidar says in the offseason he's 250 lbs at 10% bodyfat. My math tells me at 225 lbs he'd be at 0% bodyfat. In actuality he probably competes around 3% bodyfat which would put him near 229, yet in the same article he says he competes at 218. What happened to the extra 10-12 lbs? It could be water but I think he's factoring in some muscle loss as well. What about Ronnie competing in the Mr. O at 260'ish when Chad says he could've weighed 285 if he wanted to? He's losing muscle there too, albeit intentionally.
You regular Joes can rest assured that cutting cycle is costing you some of the hard earned muscle you gained during that last bulking cycle.
Wouldn't you rather do two cycles where you can eat as much as you want rather than one feast cycle and one famine cycle? You'll build much more muscle on the former. If you gain 25 lbs on a bulking cycle offhand I'd estimate it's 12 lbs muscle, 6 lbs fat and 7 lbs of water. In the subsequent cutting cycle you may lose 2 lbs of muscle while trying to ditch that 13 lbs of fat & water. That means a net muscle gain of only 10 lbs. What if you could gain 12 lbs of muscle, 3 lbs of fat and little water? Would you take it? Here's how.
I suggest doing a “Clean bulking” cycle instead. WTF is that? Simple...eat like you're 6-7 weeks out from a contest, only in unlimited amounts. Chicken/turkey breasts, steak, lean cuts of meat, rice, potatoes, pasta, breads. Only allow yourself to eat junkfood on the weekends. That extra fat in your diet isn't helping you build quality muscle and you're consuming enough carbohydrate to fuel your workouts and recovery. Now when this clean bulk cycle ends you don't have 10 lbs of extra fat to deal with. You can do post cycle recovery followed by your time off then go right into another clean bulk cycle, plus you don't have to waste money on weak anabolics like winny. You'll still have nearly all the muscle you gained first time around and you're about to double it on the next cycle. Not to mention it'll be easier to buy clothes because your weight won't fluctuate as much. Trust me on this...I've outgrown a 46-short suit which is the biggest you find off the rack in a short size.
Save the cutting cycles for contest preparation. Maximize the effectiveness of your steroids by using them the way they were intended...to build huge muscles. If you're an ectomorph then the traditional bulk cycle is a good idea, but then an ectomorph shouldn't need a cutting cycle in the first place.

With Bulk/Cut cycles you take 3 steps forward then 1 step back.
With Clean Bulk cycles you simply take 2 steps forward.

nice tities
 
Dial_tone said:
When you gain fat weight two things happen. The size of your fat cells increases AND the total number of fat cells increases. When you lose weight the size of your fat cells decreases but the total number stays the same. This is fact, not what I simply "think happens". This means when you come off that cutting cycle those extra fat cells you gained during that bulking cycle are still there dying to absorb every single gram of fat you take in. .

I had no idea about this ... so are you saying that the number of fat cells in your body ONLY grows? It never decreases?
 
good post DT..

i'm now a strong supporter of the 2 week yo yo cycles..
basically, you stay on the sauce for 12 weeeks.

the first 2 weeks are cutting..
the following are bulking..
and repeat again for 12 weeks.
 
satchboogie said:
good post DT..

i'm now a strong supporter of the 2 week yo yo cycles..
basically, you stay on the sauce for 12 weeeks.

the first 2 weeks are cutting..
the following are bulking..
and repeat again for 12 weeks.


I copied a similiar idea from a pro named David Henry. Here's what he does:

Weeks 1 - 4: Gain
Weeks 5: Hardening
Weeks 6 - 8: Gain
Weeks 9 - 10: Hardening
Weeks 11 -12: Gain
Weeks: 13 -15: Hardening

During the GAIN phase the calories are a bit higher, then the HARDENING phase is to eliminate any fat buildup. He didn't necessarily say he did this while on juice but I plan to use this for 10-12 week cycles. You could start the juice at any point in the process. The changes could be simple things like:

GAIN - red meats or bigger portions, more whole eggs, whole milk
HARDENING - 2%x or skim milk, white meat, 1-2 whole eggs only, more protein from water-based shakes, cardio.
 
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sounds nice.
here's my routine and keep in mind i'm on teh sauce all the way through:

week 1 & 2 are cutting: DNP, lots of cardio, low cals, high intensity training

week 3 & 4 are bulking: lots of food, lots of training.. lots of sleep. no cardio!!!!

repeat the cycle til the end.

as far as the dnp dosage:

200mg in the a.m and 200mg at night do the job quite effectively.
carbs are kept under 100g a day.
supplemenation a must while dnp so i wont get into that.

during cutting phases, i try to get a solid workout in the afternoon, and later that night a light cardio session like bike riding on the beach... its great for fat loss and i even managed to score some skanks back to the pad. damn skanks!

my way flucuates between 205 pounds during end of bulking down to 195 at end of cutting...

i've been doin this for a little over 2 months now and am VERY satisfied with the results. as far as i'm concerned its one of the only ways to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously.
 
Your absolutley right. It is a well known fact that your body NEVER loses fat cells when dieting. You simply shrink the fat cells that you have. On the other hand it IS possible to produce More fat cells.

That is why it is harder and harder to get lean as you get older. Chances are you grew more fat cells somewhere aling the way.

For this purpose, I will never do an all-you-can-eat bulikng cycle again. I simply don't want to grow more new fat cells.
 
This is good info guys keepin it bumped. I usually do what you do Satch (minus the dnp), but in larger chunks, i.e. 4wks gaining, 3wks harening. repeat...

I may try this in smaller increments. This may work perfect as I was looking for a way to alternate using dbol with var, in my cycle, and may incorporate the dbol for 2 weeks of lean bulking, and the var for 2 weeks of hardening. Interesting nonethe less. I assume most of you dont change your compounds when changing the gaining/hardening phase.
 
Mavy said:
assume most of you dont change your compounds when changing the gaining/hardening phase.

actually i dont but it sounds like a solid idea.

i was thinking of adding the bombs at 100mg a day on the 2 week bulking phases.

only problem is that i'm literally a fuckin balloon while bulking.
the sustanon at 750mg a week bloats me really really badly.
so with the addition of a strong oral i may as well fill myself up with helium and go to a circuis.

id really like to get my hands on some pharmacetuical arimidex.
it should solve that problem as my current intake of nolva/provi isnt doin the job on the bloat!
 
Mavy said:
This is good info guys keepin it bumped. I usually do what you do Satch (minus the dnp), but in larger chunks, i.e. 4wks gaining, 3wks harening. repeat...

I may try this in smaller increments. This may work perfect as I was looking for a way to alternate using dbol with var, in my cycle, and may incorporate the dbol for 2 weeks of lean bulking, and the var for 2 weeks of hardening. Interesting nonethe less. I assume most of you dont change your compounds when changing the gaining/hardening phase.


I avoid the harsher drugs now and stick to EQ, Deca, low doses of test & Fina. At 39 years old I'm 5'8, 249 lbs and the last thing I want is another 25 lbs. When you hit mid 30's that fat doesn't come off like it used to and I find it near impossible to get really lean, although I still grow like a weed. I need to do 6-8 months of GH to get down below 12% and stay there. This whole thread is really a collection of things I've done and wish I'd done had I known better at the time.
 
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Great post. I started a thread asking if I should lose 4 or 5 % bf before starting my test/dbol cycle. I didnt get many responses. I am glad you posted this. I definately would have eaten myself into a Chris Farley look a like. I am new to the gear world and always thought that you had to eat and eat and eat. I was gonna monitor total protein and total cals. I am 30 and it is already more difficult to lose bf. That is a guarantee to you young guys byt the way. I will definately lose some more bf before starting my cycle and eat much cleaner than I would have. Thanks for the info bro!!! :)
 
hairlossguru said:
Your absolutley right. It is a well known fact that your body NEVER loses fat cells when dieting. You simply shrink the fat cells that you have. On the other hand it IS possible to produce More fat cells.

That is why it is harder and harder to get lean as you get older. Chances are you grew more fat cells somewhere aling the way.

For this purpose, I will never do an all-you-can-eat bulikng cycle again. I simply don't want to grow more new fat cells.

YIKES!! That has got to be one of the scariest things I have ever read. Thank God I only did one bulk cycle, so I don't have too much of a hole to dig myself out of.
 
Redux said:
YIKES!! That has got to be one of the scariest things I have ever read. Thank God I only did one bulk cycle, so I don't have too much of a hole to dig myself out of.


No shit bro! I was always under the impression that it was harder to burn fat the older you get cause your metabolism slows slightly more. I also thought it had to do with insulin production. Very scary about the fat. If one were smart, ALL cycles would be lean gainers, with diet as the KEY focus in mind.
 
Mavy said:
No shit bro! I was always under the impression that it was harder to burn fat the older you get cause your metabolism slows slightly more. I also thought it had to do with insulin production. Very scary about the fat. If one were smart, ALL cycles would be lean gainers, with diet as the KEY focus in mind.

It's harder because:

1. You start to lose muscle around age 40 and muscle burns more calories than fat.
2. Your metabolism does slow down
3. Plus the fat cell buildup
4. no idea about the insulin thing.
 
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