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Tendons, joints, collagen,Deca/Eq.......Read this!

galaxy

Well-known member
Just a copy and paste of something thats been copied and pasted like a hundred times:

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.
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interesting. i like wood however and have found out recently through personal experience that you really want to hit the same test or higher than your nand.

i was hitting
40mg eod test prop
100mg eod npp
50mg ed winny

exceptional wood went to mediocrity at best

so i upped prop to 100 and am contemplating upping it to 125 or dropping the npp to 75.

gonna get some enanthate rolling here shortly and will probably hit that at 500ew alongside the npp at 100eod and then switching the winny to mast at 350-500ew
 
Ive always like a 2 to 1 androgen to anabolic ratio. Never injured and never any wood problems.
 
I always run the long esters when Bulking. For me - I just get better results:

600mg/wk Test E or C
400mg/wk Deca Dura

No Deca dick with that ratio. Plus I use Proviron, which IMO really helps boost both Test effectiveness and libido.
 
nice post im running 500mgs test 250mgs deca and 25mgs winny ed , but my joints feel like these on fire and click all the time, shit not a good feeling get scared when i do squats feels like knees will blow out

peace
 
Wow talk about a coincidence! I was about to post a poll asking if people tend to get more tendon injuries while on cycle.

I'm on week 5 of a test/trenbolone/mast cycle and I have gotten 2 minor tendon injuries this week. I have never had tendon problems before. I hurt my elbow on monday doing chest with slightly too much weight and more surprisingly, I hurt my knee yesterday doing 20 rep squats with a fairly light weight (it didn't hurt at all during my workout but by nighttime I had a little swollen area near my kneecap.

I have some extra de.ca laying around so i think I'll add it in and see if that helps keep me injury free for the rest of the cycle.

Thanks for the info :beer:
 
I've read this article before...it's a great post...just goes to show that you don't need crazy amounts of either test or de-ca to make some decent gains... at the same time, you have less risk of injury...and you'll recover better in the end
 
ps I was actually surprised about primo
typically the aas assciated with dht tend to make joints more brittle
 
Great read. I believe that winny is better tolerated by the joints in conjunction with a nandrolone & perhaps at a lower dose more like 10-20mg ED instead of the standard 50mg. TestE, deca, EQ, inj winny has been my stack lately. Nice synergy but dropped winny not for tendon problems but due to cystic acne. Going to reintroduce at a much lower dose .
 
galaxy said:
Just a copy and paste of something thats been copied and pasted like a hundred times:

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of anabolic androgenic steroids which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, testosterone cypionate, or testosterone enanthate.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Deca, Anavar, or Primobolan - methenolone - as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , anavar and Primobolan - methenolone - will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - .

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, human growth hormone - somatropin - at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, Primobolan - methenolone - , anavar, and Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.
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I've seen this article a number of times, and I've asked to see a source for it, but no one is able to supply one. It's great if it's true, but where are the references to this study?
 
bottleneckblooz said:
I've seen this article a number of times, and I've asked to see a source for it, but no one is able to supply one. It's great if it's true, but where are the references to this study?

I was searching around awhile back to see if there was a journal/study refernce for it and couldnt find it. I found what appeared to be Post-Zero of it lol --- it looked like a compilation composed of some copy pastes from different places.

nonetheless, the individual parts that were of interest to me (gh/collagen effects of winny and var) seem to be supported by other sources so its good enuf for me.
 
I would like to know where the study from this thread came from too.

Also if you are interested in increasing tendon/ligiment strength to prevent injury, would combing EQ with anavar or EQ with primo etc be a good idea? Would there be any synergy from a purely tendon/ligament strength increase standpoint?

I think people that are prone to injuries perhaps from using aas that are hard on the tendons like tren and winny might like to know this. Plus it would be interesting to know.
 
fuck that was a good read
 
elite2006 said:
I would like to know where the study from this thread came from too.

Also if you are interested in increasing tendon/ligiment strength to prevent injury, would combing EQ with anavar or EQ with primo etc be a good idea? Would there be any synergy from a purely tendon/ligament strength increase standpoint?

I think people that are prone to injuries perhaps from using aas that are hard on the tendons like tren and winny might like to know this. Plus it would be interesting to know.


The Influence of the Anabolic Agent, Oxandrolone, Upon the Expression of Procollagen Types I and III mRNA in Human Fibroblasts Cultured on Collagen or Plastic

from Wounds
G. C. Saggers, BS, G.M. Allison, BS; H. Levinson, MD; T. Kramer, MD; D.R. Mackay, MD and H.P. Ehrlich, PhD
 
you think 250mg of sus a week for 10 weeks would be that bad on the tendons? so 7 day weeks would be safer then 5 day weeks
 
eja35oz said:
you think 250mg of sus a week for 10 weeks would be that bad on the tendons? so 7 day weeks would be safer then 5 day weeks

If you have a solid base of years of training, your tendons and lig are much stronger than the average person and used to being taxed so for a first cycle i do not think it is crucial---simple bro-ology but most injuries you hear about are guys who are really pushing limits w/o ever having taken time off to let the ten/lig catch-up to their strength.

This is just another reason why gear use too early is a bad idea--you need a solid foundation upon which to build--or else :worried:
 
That's awesome! Thanks Galaxy! I had heard the positive joint effects that deca has but not that of Anavar and Primo, which is what I'm looking at running. Thanks again man!
 
everywhere on the net i see the same article no references no backup studies it's like it came from nowhere. any real input , real study group experiment with these substances for months , logs , end results.....
 
The Influence of the Anabolic Agent, Oxandrolone, Upon the Expression of Procollagen Types I and III mRNA in Human Fibroblasts Cultured on Collagen or Plastic

from Wounds
G. C. Saggers, BS, G.M. Allison, BS; H. Levinson, MD; T. Kramer, MD; D.R. Mackay, MD and H.P. Ehrlich, PhD

^^^^^To the gentleman above me^^^^^

I too was looking for this info:D
 
Don't forget Jello, gellatin has been known to repair the spongy collagen between the bones you can make jello or if you're in a hurry add 2 tablespoons to your milkshake.
 
Hey that is some nice work there mate i just done a hamstring playing rugby, running gh but only got a little bit so not sure how well it would work, what would u recommend as hgh is very expensive in new zealand? heard decca and sus 250 would be good as i still wanna get it up! but then by the sounds of your research sus could lead to more injuried?

Anyone got any ideas on what to take for faster recovery for a athlete playing at a high level, not worried about testing its all been done!

if someone can get back to me on dosages etc and what to take would be great!
 
RADAR - my doc told me the same thing about Jell-0. Good to hear someone like u knows about it as well
 
is this for real;?
Yes, the main ingredient in jello is Gelatin which is just a processed version of a structural protein collagen which is exactly what our tendons/ligaments/cartilage is made from.

Just like protien is the building blocks of muscle.
 
Zyg is correct! Good old jello,pour 1/4 pack in your shake each day :)
 
Hey that is some nice work there mate i just done a hamstring playing rugby, running gh but only got a little bit so not sure how well it would work, what would u recommend as hgh is very expensive in new zealand? heard decca and sus 250 would be good as i still wanna get it up! but then by the sounds of your research sus could lead to more injuried?

Anyone got any ideas on what to take for faster recovery for a athlete playing at a high level, not worried about testing its all been done!

if someone can get back to me on dosages etc and what to take would be great!

don't exceed 200-250mg for test per week (test e , cyp , sus , prop....) or u'll impair collagen synthesis , try 200-300mg deca and 200-300 mg eq for a while in addition to 200mg test of course but don't run it more than 10 weeks, keep some dostinex on hand u may need a little in case of prolac build up from deca , u'll notice that when ur libido is gone with the wind :) a single dose of dos 0.5mg /w or 0.25mg x 2 /w (divided in 2 halves) will bring u back on track, i'm focusing on this issue cuz we usually do test more than deca to avoid sexual dysfunction and mood swing but in ur case to boost collagen synthesis u need more deca than test , with eq u'll be fine.

P.S : i'm sure about deca's benefit for joints and collagen synthesis i have many studies on that and i do it frequently during the year and noticed the effect with time, but not sure about the other compounds mentioned in the article above fro OP , Rick posted a study about oxandrolone (anavar) , can someone post something about EQ (boldenone), thx.
 
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