Strength loss from losing weight. How much more can I lose?

[bruce9241]

I've been losing some weight lately which resulted in me losing strength.

Today was my military press day. I used to be able to do 135lbs ten times. Now since the 10 pounds weight loss I can't even get teh 135lbs up five times. I got stuck at four. After that I had to load the bar with lower weight, 115lbs.

This is very disappointing for me. I've also lost some strength for bench press and dead lifts. Squats haven't suffered that much, but I think it's because I never really squatted at my full potential.

My question is: How much more strength can I expect to lose? I've lost about 10 pounds in two and a half weeks. I'm down from 233lbs to 222pounds. I expect to lose about 20 more pounds.

 

[SaiBoT]

Depends if your strength comes from muscle size or neural adaptation. If your strength it's based on low rep training, I doubt you will lose that much, but by strength you mean being able to do sets of 10 with a given weight I'm inclined to think you will lose some more.

My advice, lift heavy for sets of 5 something like Rippetoe beginner 3x5 and you will be able to mantain strength, maybe increase it and keep the muscle loss to a minimum, providing that your protein intake it's high enough.

 

[bruce9241]

Yes my strength is from doing 5x5. I rarely do more reps than 5. I think my strength come sfrom neural adaptation. I have been lifting pretty heavy (heavy for me, not heavy compared to some people here) for couple months now. I haven't seen much muscle gain because I do a lot of powerlifting routines for low reps.

I'm just a big concerned about this loss of strength. I really hope I don't lose anymore. Going from being able to do 10 reps of overhead press to only four is a bit disconcerting.

 

[moya]

Yes my strength is from doing 5x5. I rarely do more reps than 5. I think my strength come sfrom neural adaptation. I have been lifting pretty heavy (heavy for me, not heavy compared to some people here) for couple months now. I haven't seen much muscle gain because I do a lot of powerlifting routines for low reps.

I'm just a big concerned about this loss of strength. I really hope I don't lose anymore. Going from being able to do 10 reps of overhead press to only four is a bit disconcerting.

having done the 5x5 only a couple months... you probably havent aquired that neural adaptation... i would honestly expect you to lose quite a bit of strength cutting down another 20 lbs... ...unless you are on aas, and that changes everything...
i understand what korin says about that neural adaptation... i have powerlifted for a few years now and when i come back from a break i either just lose a little strength, or on a short break i even gain some... my bodyweight can even fluctuate 10-12lbs with no noticeable effect on strength as long as weight loss is not drastic...

 

[oso0960]

Hey Bruce, I'm having the exact same problem. My strength comes from basically 5x5's, started cutting 3 weeks ago, and am losing strength. I'm losing around 3lbs a week eating 2500ish calories mainly from proteins and fats. Carbs around workouts and in morning comes to a total of about 100g a day. I could also press 135x10 and could barely get 5 during yesterday's workout. I'm starting to think that I'm losing strength because I'm not giving my body enough food to give it my all. I get very worn out and tired toward the end of the workouts now. I highly doubt I'm losing much (if any) muscle. Maybe our food consumption has something to do with how our CNS responds?

EDIT: I forgot to add that I went from the DF 5x5 to the SF 5x5 for cutting. (So if you assume it's because of my training, it's not lol) There's no way in hell I'd be able to squat and deadlift 5x5 on wednesday with my energy levels now. Nor did I have many intentions on gaining strength...just trying to maintain.

 

[SaiBoT]

I'm sorry but if you guys lift 135lbs overhead your gains aren't through neural adaptation, in fact you aren't even ready for an advanced 5x5 such as the dual factor. You are better of doing Rippetoes 3x5 or Bill Starr intermediate Madcow version. Those are my thoughts.

How heavy are you OSO? My guess is that you are undereating, by that I mean way below maintenance.

 

[oso0960]

I'm sorry but if you guys lift 135lbs overhead your gains aren't through neural adaptation, in fact you aren't even ready for an advanced 5x5 such as the dual factor. You are better of doing Rippetoes 3x5 or Bill Starr intermediate Madcow version. Those are my thoughts.

How heavy are you OSO? My guess is that you are undereating, by that I mean way below maintenance.

Korin, What amount of weight should a person be lifting to be considered an intermediate, and an advanced? would a 300/400/500 (bench/squat/dead) be considered intermediate or advanced?

I don't know how great this is, but according to http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/PressStandards.html, I would be between an intermediate and advanced since I could rep 155x7 @250lbs

Other than numbers, I can't progress linearly anymore, at least from what I've tried. It doesn't matter if I change the sets/reps, exercises, use more weeks to build up...I've gone from a variety of SF 5x5's where I would stall after week 4 to ws4bb which was an absolute failure because I lost a lot of strength.. I made my own version of a westside program which used waves of singles above 90%: 8 singles week 1, 6 singles week 2, 10 singles week 3, and deload week 4 which worked well for me.

Then I tried the DF 5x5 and my lifts skyrocketed after the 4 weeks. The extra 5 weeks 3x3 3x a week didn't go too well...recovery isn't THAT good. I think my body responds better to periods of high volume then periods of lower volume to recover...maybe I'm doing something wrong.

well I was at 225lbs a little over 3 weeks ago and now down to 215lbs. Do you think 2500 calories is too low? The only exercise I do is workout 3 hours a week hah. My other exercise sessions are twiddling my thumbs when playing xbox lol.

 

[bruce9241]

Hey Bruce, I'm having the exact same problem. My strength comes from basically 5x5's, started cutting 3 weeks ago, and am losing strength. I'm losing around 3lbs a week eating 2500ish calories mainly from proteins and fats. Carbs around workouts and in morning comes to a total of about 100g a day. I could also press 135x10 and could barely get 5 during yesterday's workout. I'm starting to think that I'm losing strength because I'm not giving my body enough food to give it my all. I get very worn out and tired toward the end of the workouts now. I highly doubt I'm losing much (if any) muscle. Maybe our food consumption has something to do with how our CNS responds?

EDIT: I forgot to add that I went from the DF 5x5 to the SF 5x5 for cutting. (So if you assume it's because of my training, it's not lol) There's no way in hell I'd be able to squat and deadlift 5x5 on wednesday with my energy levels now. Nor did I have many intentions on gaining strength...just trying to maintain.

Today I actually experienced a bit of a strength surge. I felt stronger today during my squat session. I didn't squat more than I used to, but I did the 5x5 with ease. I was even able ot go lower than I used to.

I think it has to do with food. Or maybe creatine. I ate a lot of food yesterday: mainly protein and fats(hometown buffet). I also received a free container of protein powder that has 3g of creatine per serving. I never used creatine before so I don't know if this resulted in me feeling stronger during my lifts.

I really think it's the food though. Maybe we need to eat more protein or something.

 

[bruce9241]

having done the 5x5 only a couple months... you probably havent aquired that neural adaptation... i would honestly expect you to lose quite a bit of strength cutting down another 20 lbs... ...unless you are on aas, and that changes everything...
i understand what korin says about that neural adaptation... i have powerlifted for a few years now and when i come back from a break i either just lose a little strength, or on a short break i even gain some... my bodyweight can even fluctuate 10-12lbs with no noticeable effect on strength as long as weight loss is not drastic...

Yea you're probably right about the neural adaptation. I don't use any aas. Do you think I can atleast maintain most of this built up strength while cutting if I were to eat more protein? I was only getting about 100g of protein before. Today I ate atleast 170g of protein. I do weigh 223 pounds, but most of it is fat so I don't eat 223g of protein.

How long does it take for neural adaptation? I'm really trying to lift hard every session, but with the weight cuts I am just totally drained after doing deadlifts, squats or overhead press. Even bench.

 

[SaiBoT]

Korin, What amount of weight should a person be lifting to be considered an intermediate, and an advanced? would a 300/400/500 (bench/squat/dead) be considered intermediate or advanced?

I don't know how great this is, but according to Press Standards, I would be between an intermediate and advanced since I could rep 155x7 @250lbs

Other than numbers, I can't progress linearly anymore, at least from what I've tried. It doesn't matter if I change the sets/reps, exercises, use more weeks to build up...I've gone from a variety of SF 5x5's where I would stall after week 4 to ws4bb which was an absolute failure because I lost a lot of strength.. I made my own version of a westside program which used waves of singles above 90%: 8 singles week 1, 6 singles week 2, 10 singles week 3, and deload week 4 which worked well for me.

Then I tried the DF 5x5 and my lifts skyrocketed after the 4 weeks. The extra 5 weeks 3x3 3x a week didn't go too well...recovery isn't THAT good. I think my body responds better to periods of high volume then periods of lower volume to recover...maybe I'm doing something wrong.

well I was at 225lbs a little over 3 weeks ago and now down to 215lbs. Do you think 2500 calories is too low? The only exercise I do is workout 3 hours a week hah. My other exercise sessions are twiddling my thumbs when playing xbox lol.

I would stay around 3000-3500 on working out days and 2500 on off days, the way you said you are doing somekind of targeted keto diet. Regarding training Charles Poliquin has some nice stuff, like the patient lifter routine, which is 6x2-4 once you get to do all 6x4 with the same weight you get to increase it slightly or something like a broad pyramid for strength which is 1x5 @ 85%, 1x3 @ 90%,2x2 @ 95% then reverse 1x3 @ 90% and 1x5 @85% again. this for the big three once you can do increase one rep for each % once you reach 2x5 with the 95% reevaluate the new 95% and start all over, or deload. Going deeper into Charles Poliquin methods he works with 6 week cycles, the first 3 weeks he does accumulation phase which envolves trisets, prexhaust, compound sets, mechanical advantage sets and the next three weeks envolves wave like loading, straight sets, 5x5, drop sets, 4%-5% solution. After the six weeks he reevaluates the weaknesses and prepares another 6 week cycles, personally I feel like my body responds better with 8 week cycles with 4 weeks per phase, specially off cycle.
You should really check is book Modern Trends on Strength Training.

I think you are definitely an intermediate level t. My maxes are 235lbs bench, over 400lb squat and 465lb conventional dead, my bench still sucks and I consider myself an intermediate.

I tried westside and I must say it's a very good routine for someone hitting the juice, in fact my PRs were all on WSB, but then again I was cycling Anadrol, Test enanthate and Equipoise, weighting around 200-204lbs.

 

[moya]

Yea you're probably right about the neural adaptation. I don't use any aas. Do you think I can atleast maintain most of this built up strength while cutting if I were to eat more protein? I was only getting about 100g of protein before. Today I ate atleast 170g of protein. I do weigh 223 pounds, but most of it is fat so I don't eat 223g of protein.

How long does it take for neural adaptation? I'm really trying to lift hard every session, but with the weight cuts I am just totally drained after doing deadlifts, squats or overhead press. Even bench.

there realy is no cut and dry answer... everyones body reacts differently... i have spent the last 5 years powerlifting and over the last couple years my cns has adapted to where i can take a two month break, and walk back in the gym and deadlift 405@148... its not somthing that happens overnight...
you need to decide now what your immediate goal is.... becoming stronger or leaning out.... you can do both but it will be a much slower process then if you focused on one....
personally for me, protein dosnt make me stronger (like when i eat it that day... over a period of time of course it does but that is because it is building muscle), carbs and fat make me stronger... maybe you could eat all your carbs and fat pre-workout (like 1hr before) and diet the rest of the day...
also, i would try to aim for that 1g/lb level of protein, especially while cutting... now im definately not an expert on cutting... but i do know that on a caloric deficit you will be weak and your body can eventualy adapt to lifting under that circumstance... just keep trying to add weight to that bar, and imo, if you need to eat a little more, it will probably be ok

 

[oso0960]

I would stay around 3000-3500 on working out days and 2500 on off days, the way you said you are doing somekind of targeted keto diet. Regarding training Charles Poliquin has some nice stuff, like the patient lifter routine, which is 6x2-4 once you get to do all 6x4 with the same weight you get to increase it slightly or something like a broad pyramid for strength which is 1x5 @ 85%, 1x3 @ 90%,2x2 @ 95% then reverse 1x3 @ 90% and 1x5 @85% again. this for the big three once you can do increase one rep for each % once you reach 2x5 with the 95% reevaluate the new 95% and start all over, or deload. Going deeper into Charles Poliquin methods he works with 6 week cycles, the first 3 weeks he does accumulation phase which envolves trisets, prexhaust, compound sets, mechanical advantage sets and the next three weeks envolves wave like loading, straight sets, 5x5, drop sets, 4%-5% solution. After the six weeks he reevaluates the weaknesses and prepares another 6 week cycles, personally I feel like my body responds better with 8 week cycles with 4 weeks per phase, specially off cycle.
You should really check is book Modern Trends on Strength Training.

I think you are definitely an intermediate level t. My maxes are 235lbs bench, over 400lb squat and 465lb conventional dead, my bench still sucks and I consider myself an intermediate.

I tried westside and I must say it's a very good routine for someone hitting the juice, in fact my PRs were all on WSB, but then again I was cycling Anadrol, Test enanthate and Equipoise, weighting around 200-204lbs.

I have skimmed many of charles' articles over on T-nation. I haven't put any time into actually trying his routines but I like the sound of that 6x2-4 scheme. I will definitely have to check his training programs out and his book. I have been more attached to Eric Cressey's training in the past, even bought his book which has a workout I believe to be one of the better beginner westside-like ones around. Thanks for the reply Korin

 

[oso0960]

Maybe we need to eat more protein or something.

I agree with moya, I get about 250g of protein a day. And sorry for jacking your thread for a little lol

 

[bruce9241]

there realy is no cut and dry answer... everyones body reacts differently... i have spent the last 5 years powerlifting and over the last couple years my cns has adapted to where i can take a two month break, and walk back in the gym and deadlift 405@148... its not somthing that happens overnight...
you need to decide now what your immediate goal is.... becoming stronger or leaning out.... you can do both but it will be a much slower process then if you focused on one....
personally for me, protein dosnt make me stronger (like when i eat it that day... over a period of time of course it does but that is because it is building muscle), carbs and fat make me stronger... maybe you could eat all your carbs and fat pre-workout (like 1hr before) and diet the rest of the day...
also, i would try to aim for that 1g/lb level of protein, especially while cutting... now im definately not an expert on cutting... but i do know that on a caloric deficit you will be weak and your body can eventualy adapt to lifting under that circumstance... just keep trying to add weight to that bar, and imo, if you need to eat a little more, it will probably be ok

Holy crap. 405@148? That makes my 235deadlift@ 223 body weight look like crap. I think right now I just need to lose the weight. Maybe 20 more pounds then I'll start packing it back on with lean mass. I'll try the carbs/fat thing before my next heavy lift session and see if that gives me more energy.

 

[SaiBoT]

I have skimmed many of charles' articles over on T-nation. I haven't put any time into actually trying his routines but I like the sound of that 6x2-4 scheme. I will definitely have to check his training programs out and his book. I have been more attached to Eric Cressey's training in the past, even bought his book which has a workout I believe to be one of the better beginner westside-like ones around. Thanks for the reply Korin

No problem bro!

 

[moya]

Holy crap. 405@148? That makes my 235deadlift@ 223 body weight look like crap. I think right now I just need to lose the weight. Maybe 20 more pounds then I'll start packing it back on with lean mass. I'll try the carbs/fat thing before my next heavy lift session and see if that gives me more energy.

good idea, probably better to cut first so you can see what you have to work with.... then when you up your calories and eat big your training will help put on muscle instead of the fat...
yea, last week i pulled 405 for 7... been a long journey...

 

[bruce9241]

good idea, probably better to cut first so you can see what you have to work with.... then when you up your calories and eat big your training will help put on muscle instead of the fat...
yea, last week i pulled 405 for 7... been a long journey...

Wow 7 times? I thought it was your max.


I just ate 4 pieces of chicken, a biscuit and cole slaw for dinner in preparation for tomorrow. Probably do squats or deadlift.