Started out wrong!! Bad Training!!

[StevenM23]

So when I first learned how to workout my buddy was one of those guys you see in the gym who can bench 2x more then he can squat . The way he trained my was the overload method , one body part each day and one day rest a week .. Now I gained a decent amount at first for sure . But as I reAd the forums I see how important compound workouts are such as squats and deadlifts .. He never trained me at all on those .. Never did them for the first year !! Now I'm seeing how importNt they are I m thinking I should start back to basics .. Fuck wish I woulda known before I started my cycle hahaha, live and learn eh lol!! been training for 2 years .. So u think i should do the 5x5 after my cycle ?? Stats:
Weight:180
Height;5"11
Bf: 8%
bench : 245
Squats: 185
Deadlifts:190

 

[brownbrown]

start NOW ! its a good program. use the advanced.

 

[stevesmi]

or do the splits training but start it off with compound exercises and then do more isolation.

 

[StevenM23]

U mean just do the
Push
Pull
Legs?
I just started that this last week , feels pretty good , for pull I start with dead lifts , push I start with bench , and legs I start with squats , sound good??

 

[StevenM23]

And I was doing high squats but I actually learned to do them right the other day and bring my ass to the floor and wow does it ever feel like so much more intense ,my ego is hurt , but form is way more important then looking like I can lift more haha

 

[zedhed]

My vote goes for the Stronglifts 5x5. You cant go wrong.

 

[lweaver]

I second that, start immediately.

 

[StevenM23]

Checked out the advanced 5x5 ... That looks like a great workout !! Looking forward to starting it , I'm thinking of doing it right after I'm done cycle so that it's a fresh new workout to keep me going through the PCT and keep me enthusiastic about going to gym natty

 

[StevenM23]

Really u think when I have 2 weeks left on cycle just start doing It right now in the middle of my 4 week split
Routine ??

 

[StevenM23]

My only problem is a need a good fkin workout partner , they keep flailing and leaving on me ... How can I do my max with no secure spotter every second day?

 

[brownbrown]

what would be the harm? once you get your baselines you'll get 3 or 4 weeks until your strength goes down. then you can readjust. Worst that can happen is you will get 3 weeks of quick strength.
It's a pretty cusomizable program. plus you can run as many spreadsheets as you want. so use one until your stregnth goes down and then another to recalculate and start a no supps log

 

[stevesmi]

U mean just do the
Push
Pull
Legs?
I just started that this last week , feels pretty good , for pull I start with dead lifts , push I start with bench , and legs I start with squats , sound good??

yes that is the way to go .. and on pulling you do rows as your compound and pullups

 

[stevesmi]

My only problem is a need a good fkin workout partner , they keep flailing and leaving on me ... How can I do my max with no secure spotter every second day?

workouts partners always slow me down. just grab someone to spot for you when they are in between their sets, and thank them after and offer to spot them in the future when they need it. pretty soon you will have a handful of spotters

 

[brownbrown]

My only problem is a need a good fkin workout partner , they keep flailing and leaving on me ... How can I do my max with no secure spotter every second day?

that was my bane. unless your gym is full of douches, its not that bad asking for help on the heavy sets. its a pain in the ass, but you only need spots on the bench. prolly the last set only once you have a solid baseline

 

[zedhed]

I work out at home alone and have not problems.

 

[FlexManning]

Mehdi (Stronglifts creator) doesn't use a spotter. He usually trains by himself at home if I'm not mistaken.

If you have access to a power rack you can do without a spotter. And dead stop bench presses off the power rack pins are a great exercise in their own right.

A workout partner can be a great thing. I still remember when I first started going to an actual gym and I had been puttering around with squats on the Smith machine and a bunch of other silly stuff and rarely did actual squats. When I did them it was usually light weight like 135. Then one day I did several sets of deadlifts- on the Smith machine weirdly enough- and a huge ass dude asked me to squat with him. I did 8 full reps at 225, failing on the last rep, a huge accomplishment compared to what I had been doing at that time. This was over 10 years ago.

Another story, I had just got back into the gym after a long layoff and several injuries and I don't think I had deadlifted anything much over 300 in a couple years. Out of the blue a buddy showed up and I lifted over 400 for a lot of reps. Didn't even know I could, I totally f*cked my elbow up 3 years ago and have lost about 25% of my range of motion in that arm. And I was at about 200 pounds at 6'2 at the time. That gave me the confidence to keep at it and now I've gotten much stronger at the lift.

What's the point in this? Well if you can't get a steady workout partner a good option is to work around it with the power rack, and when you can get a good training partner use that time for "showing off". Stay in good form but realize your intensity will be a little higher and just look at it like hey, I can't train like that everyday anyway I'd get burned out. Working out with a good partner or a crew can be like your power lifting meet.

 

[FlexManning]

workouts partners always slow me down. just grab someone to spot for you when they are in between their sets, and thank them after and offer to spot them in the future when they need it. pretty soon you will have a handful of spotters

Man it's such a pain to ask for a spot. A lot of times I wanna ask guys if they need a spot when I see them benching by themselves and struggling. I had an awkward experience one time though, I was in a small gym and a guy was benching and looked like he was gonna decapitate himself at the end of every set. I asked him if he needed a spot and he said, "No!" and looked at me like I asked him for a handjob or something. Was the first and last time I ever asked a stranger if they needed a spot.

On the other hand I've never turned down a request to spot and as long as I'm not asked to do some f*cked up version of bent over rows because they're using too much weight I don't mind.

 

[StevenM23]

Yeah that's a good idea , yeah and I'm considering changing gyms , I go to planet fitness and yeah most of them dont even know how to spot , u know the spotters who lift half the weight for u? And even when u tell them to just lend a finger they sill do it haha, lame !!! But power rack it is until I can afford a new gym membership

 

[FlexManning]

Yeah that's a good idea , yeah and I'm considering changing gyms , I go to planet fitness and yeah most of them dont even know how to spot , u know the spotters who lift half the weight for u? And even when u tell them to just lend a finger they sill do it haha, lame !!! But power rack it is until I can afford a new gym membership

There's definitely a trick to spotting the right way, you have to show the lifter you're only gonna offer a few fingers on the last couple reps until it's time to rack it. Rowing the weight for people is stupid, it's bad for the guy lifting and hard on the guy spotting.

 

[stevesmi]

i don't like to be asked if i need a spot either. its kinda like getting in my way of concentration.

 

[gstacker]

If u do the 5x5 its going to be a few weeks before ur anyehere near needing a spotter and even then when u do it wont be for anything but bench and the final set...

 

[Gettingtobigformydesmo]

Can I ask a question, well more of a on going debate ...... Are you training for strength or size (hypertrophy) on your cycle??

If it is mass and size you are trying to attain, is a 5x5 programme suitable??! I believe the basic tenets of this programme are not ideally suited for hypertrophy.

Be interested to hear everyone opinions!?

 

[StevenM23]

Well in the long run for sure more mass and size , but I think the more strength u have , the more u can lift which will in turn make u gain more mass , I dong really care about strength cause i don't need in my profession but kinda need it haha

 

[Gettingtobigformydesmo]

I see what you are saying bud. There is a grey area between the distinction of what is strength training and what is hypertrophy training is. I guess it depends what your goals are! Well good luck with your training.

 

[Gettingtobigformydesmo]

Some of the basics are in this thread. I teach muscle injury and rehabilitation, and in particular my research is focused in the area of muscle damage. Take a look, should help to optimise your training.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/locked_and_loaded

 

[FlexManning]

Can I ask a question, well more of a on going debate ...... Are you training for strength or size (hypertrophy) on your cycle??

If it is mass and size you are trying to attain, is a 5x5 programme suitable??! I believe the basic tenets of this programme are not ideally suited for hypertrophy.

Be interested to hear everyone opinions!?

I think for the purposes of maximum hypertrophy a good argument could be made that it's not ideal. A lot of people need 40-70 seconds of time under tension for maximum hypertrophy. Stronglift proponents will of course say a lot of that's sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and of course they're probably right.

I think if we looked at 5x5 programs compared to traditional bodybuilding programs without dismissing the human factor (how many people actually stick to a program?) it'd score pretty high. If anybody thinks it's easy to stick to a program for maximum hypertrophy just because you know it's solid and proven to produce results I challenge you to follow some of Charles Poliquins ideas. Possibly the greatest trainer on earth but his programs can be nightmares for the typical guy in an ill-equipped gym.

He has a point though in that he often says people are delusional about how fast twitch they are. I mean, there are guys with about a 12 inch vertical and pipe cleaner arms thinking they're genetic freaks. But on the other hand he often recommends explosive concentric lifting with 4 second negatives. I don't know if most people can mentally hold up to that for very long. It gets worse too, stuff like on your last rep of chins take 30 seconds to lower yourself down. We're practically talking Heavy Duty here only with 20 times as many sets.

 

[StevenM23]

Some of the basics are in this thread. I teach muscle injury and rehabilitation, and in particular my research is focused in the area of muscle damage. Take a look, should help to optimise your training.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/locked_and_loaded

Thanks man , yeah I'll look into it all

 

[StevenM23]

I think for the purposes of maximum hypertrophy a good argument could be made that it's not ideal. A lot of people need 40-70 seconds of time under tension for maximum hypertrophy. Stronglift proponents will of course say a lot of that's sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and of course they're probably right.

I think if we looked at 5x5 programs compared to traditional bodybuilding programs without dismissing the human factor (how many people actually stick to a program?) it'd score pretty high. If anybody thinks it's easy to stick to a program for maximum hypertrophy just because you know it's solid and proven to produce results I challenge you to follow some of Charles Poliquins ideas. Possibly the greatest trainer on earth but his programs can be nightmares for the typical guy in an ill-equipped gym.

He has a point though in that he often says people are delusional about how fast twitch they are. I mean, there are guys with about a 12 inch vertical and pipe cleaner arms thinking they're genetic freaks. But on the other hand he often recommends explosive concentric lifting with 4 second negatives. I don't know if most people can mentally hold up to that for very long. It gets worse too, stuff like on your last rep of chins take 30 seconds to lower yourself down. We're practically talking Heavy Duty here only with 20 times as many sets.

Hmm that sounds intense man , yeah I usually try and do some negatives on my last set of each workout , really gets the pain going ( good pain)!!

 

[FlexManning]

Well his programs really get confusing because on one hand he's always talking about lifting huge weights and guys close grip bench pressing 400+ pounds, but he recommends each rep take like 5 seconds for 10 rep sets. That's a huge reduction in weight for most people. I'd be willing to bet for most on this board that's not even 50 pound dumbbells on say an incline bench. I don't know what it'd be for me I can't remember a set of bench presses ever lasting that long maybe I should try it.

 

[StevenM23]

Yeah that's like endurance workout eh, seems like it would be more of a toning workout , but tone is good too

 

[FlexManning]

Yeah that's like endurance workout eh, seems like it would be more of a toning workout , but tone is good too

It seems that way but get this, there's actually studies backing up his point. Last months Ironman mentioned one. Basically the study said using light weight and high reps/long time under tension produced more markers for hypertrophy. The science is there, the fact is that a lot of us average white guys have endurance orientated fibers we don't hit with quick sets and we can pack on some mass with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

My question is- and this was brought up in the Ironman article I read- can anybody stick to this type of training? They brought up the experience of Tim Ferriss, the 4 Hour Work Week and 4 Hour Body guy. He went so far as to have his DNA tested to determine his fiber makeup, found out he had a slow twitch makeup, consulted Casey Viator about the Colorado experiment, and did sets lasting over a minute with light weight. Put on an assload of muscle in a few weeks.

Where are you Gettingtobigformydesmo I'm sure you can add to this.

 

[StevenM23]

Hmm I'm gonna start a 8 week of doing that after my 5*5 !!! So much new stuff to try !!! I love this forum !!

 

[Gettingtobigformydesmo]

Hello flex, yes it's definitely a interesting debate and I'm sure it will never truly be answered.

The difficulty with scientific publications is that, the populous used have great hetergenatity - being the participants varying substantially (ie body types, genetic makeup, training history) and dissemination of the findings hard to interpret. In short, there are too many variables that cannot be controlled.

We do genotyping, we look at what genes or markers patients posses in terms of how well muscles can be trained and principally how hard and what recovery is need to optimise recovery, and in turn we can predict which patient might benefit different rehab programmes, higher and lower intensity programmes respectively. I know this is a different angle but there seems to be good theory behind it. Genetic disposition is a contributing factor to recovery and is a factor for optimal hypertrophy.

I do believe training 70-80% of 1RM is the best for hypertrophy, but as discussed very much determined by the individual in question. In addition, using extended eccentric times are important, providing neccassry sheer forces (tension) to replicate micro muscle damage. For example ..... 3/4 seconds lowering, 1 sec hold, 2 sec concentric pushing the weight up with a 1 sec hold in each lowering and lifting phase in that repetition. Though again, training experience also effects percentages recommended for functional and maximum hypertrophy zones. There are so many area to discuss.

I ask a question? Does it really matter when taking AAS that we use the same hypertrophy training zones ie 70-80%? I'm sure a large number of members do take them, so only natural non users or in-between cycles this maybe applicable. My reasoning for this is that, with AAS the substantial gains in strength provides adequate overload and progression of weight being used, consequently muscle adaptations occur. As well as the other advantages of AAS in protein utilisation.

Would be nice to hear anyone else's thoughts....!!

 

[FlexManning]

Part of my confusion I guess lies in hearing somebody like Poliquin recommend the standard 70-80% of 1RM then recommending sets last 40-70 seconds. I don't understand how anybody can do that with up to 80% of their 1RM. Dunno what my max bench is at the moment, I use dumbbells and occasionally do dead stop bench presses in the rack. Let's assume it's 300. No way I can do 10 reps that last 5 seconds each with 240 pounds.

Yeah I think it can be a moot point at times with steroid users, because obviously there are a lot of other things going on. One point I've heard mentioned by Michael Gundhill, he suggests steroid users always cause more muscle damage with a similar workout. The net effect is anticatabolic he says, but they cause more muscle damage in the gym. And it's amazing that one pro does 20 second sets with partial range of motion and cheat reps and another does extended sets in perfect form and yet they produce similar results.