squat issues...please read..thanks

[cmdubs]

I've done squats off and on for the last few years. When I first started doing them they always bothered my knees. After doing some research I began to practice "sitting back" rather than extending the knees. This seemed to worked okay for a while but as my poundages increased I began to feel more and more discomfort in the lower back, not in the erectors, but almost in my upper glute area.

When sitting back in a squat shouldn't the hamstrings take over at some point on the descent? I don't feel like mine do at all. I get down about half way and from that point I kind of just "sink down" to parralel and it feels like my lower back/upper glute area just takes a huge amount of stress. It's kind of hard to explain.

I use a pretty wide stance to keep the knees from going forward too much. I know if I try to squat without weight on my back I couldn't do it. I would just fall on my ass.

It's frustrating because I want to squat but everytime I find a solution to one problem something else pops up.

Any thoughts???

 

[football63]

what are your stats and how long have you been lifting? any previous injuries?

 

[curgeo]

Did you check the plethora of squat articles on www.elitefts.com?

A lot of times we have found when people cannot sit back, the hamstrings are either too tight or not strong enough to sit back all the way. You are getting the tightness in your hips right? How long have you been trying to box squat the WS way? It took me a couple of months to be able to condition myself in the groin, hips, glute and ham areas in order for me to put it all together.

Do your hips break first? Are your hamstrings a weaker muscle group compared to your glutes? When you sit back you should feel a tightning of the hamstrings...almost like doing a stiffleg or romainian dead feeling.

I would really need to see your form, but I would advise to keep on box squatting. Check out elitefts for all the squat articles you can. It might be something minor. Do you do other posterior chain worK?

 

[cmdubs]

what are your stats and how long have you been lifting? any previous injuries?

6'2" between 190-195, lifting for 4 years, no previous injuries besides a few minor tweaks here and there

 

[cmdubs]

curgeo - I know for a fact that flexibility for me has always been an issue. I use to do general hamstring and hip stretches between sets when I did squats before..not sure if it did much though.

Definetly get extreme tightness and pain in the hips and groin area. The last time I was doing squats regularly I was doing them 3x a week with HST. When I first started warming up I could barely squat halfway down because the tightness and pain in the groin area was so intense.

Box squat the WS way, wide stance? I did do this for a few weeks and then went back to traditional squats, not sure why really.

I'd say my hips and knees break together. My knees go out a little as do my hips go back, and then I sink down into that unnatural position I was talkin about in my first post.

And no, I feel absolutely no tightness in my hamstrings when I squat. Honestly, the only areas I feel working are the inside of my thighs and the bottom portion of the quads around the kneecap.

 

[Scotsman]

Does it hurt on your first rep?

If it does you are probably still leaning forward a bit much and having you knees break first.

if not then.

Are your knees coming together when you start up?

If they are this can explain the pain. This leads to instability and your lower back has to pick up the slack from you hamstrings taken out of the motion.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[cmdubs]

Does it hurt on your first rep?

If it does you are probably still leaning forward a bit much and having you knees break first.

if not then.

Are your knees coming together when you start up?

If they are this can explain the pain. This leads to instability and your lower back has to pick up the slack from you hamstrings taken out of the motion.

Cheers,
Scotsman

Yeah it hurts on the first rep, but usually once I get warmed up a bit I don't notice it as much. My knees extend a bit at first so that I can sit back without falling over I guess. Should my knees not break at all?

I don't think my knees come together. If they do then it has to be very minimal. I've seen people squat where their knees are wobbling all over the place...mine don't do that.

Maybe this is relavant I don't know, but I always have squatted just to parallel. I remember trying to go ATF a couple times and I literally was not physically capable without my upper back rounding over. Could this be a sign of hamstring tightness, lower back?

 

[Scotsman]

Yeah it hurts on the first rep, but usually once I get warmed up a bit I don't notice it as much. My knees extend a bit at first so that I can sit back without falling over I guess. Should my knees not break at all?

I don't think my knees come together. If they do then it has to be very minimal. I've seen people squat where their knees are wobbling all over the place...mine don't do that.

Maybe this is relavant I don't know, but I always have squatted just to parallel. I remember trying to go ATF a couple times and I literally was not physically capable without my upper back rounding over. Could this be a sign of hamstring tightness, lower back?

Ah now that you mention the last part. Yes this sounds a great deal like a flexibility issue. Work on stretching especially after you squat. Also if you are only going to parallel then your hamstrings haven't yet started to help the descent. Hamstrings kick in about the time you hit parallel. Also this may be a sign of core instability. Make sure you are doing enough ab work as well as direct lower back work.

As for when to break your knees. I push my hips back then break my knees to get a smooth sitting down motion. This also helps tighten up the back and get it ready for the descent.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[cmdubs]

Scotsman-

Bro thanks...I'm going to start stretching my hamstrings and work on sitting back the way you described, probably with a box at first. I've been doing regular ab work and just started doing deadlifts for the first time, hopefully this well help. Thanks again.

 

[Illuminati]

if you cant sit back in a squat stance without weight on your back, your hamstrings are not strong enough. you need to do hamstring work.
also, are you arching your back, and staying tight during the whole lift?

 

[Quadsweeps Sister]

Scotsman-

Bro thanks...I'm going to start stretching my hamstrings and work on sitting back the way you described, probably with a box at first. I've been doing regular ab work and just started doing deadlifts for the first time, hopefully this well help. Thanks again.

Yes, work to build hamstring strength and core strength as well. Are you doing work to strengthen the entire posterior chain? Good mornings, GHR's, pull-thrus, SLDL...lots of weighted and hanging ab work. These core strengtheners plus stretching should hopefully help. You might try rotating your traditional squatting with the box squats again. Are you wearing a tight belt or wearing it loosely so you are able to breathe in through your belly and push out against the belt? Just things to consider. Take care.

 

[curgeo]

When you get the chance, make sure to check out elitefts.com. The amount of information from them for free is staggering.

Like QS said, it sounds like you might need to work more on the whole posterior chain. With your lower back rounding when you go deep it is a sign of not being tight.....I mean to say that your back probably isn't maintaining an arch in the lower AND upper back. When you place your hands on the bar, squeeze your shoulder blades together and pull your elbows forward to get a good arch.

Your hamstrings are probably pretty tight....this could also be leading to losing your arch. Do you ever get back problems? Ever get sore in the lower back region? You need to make sure you are training your abs as well as lower back, glutes and hamstrings. Tomorrow I can post more if you wish.

 

[cmdubs]

if you cant sit back in a squat stance without weight on your back, your hamstrings are not strong enough. you need to do hamstring work.
also, are you arching your back, and staying tight during the whole lift?

I can actually SLDL more than I can squat and I always work hamstrings.

As long as I have weight on my back I'm able to stay tight. My glutes go back and I basically sit straight down into the hole. My upper body is almost totally erect.

 

[cmdubs]

Yes, work to build hamstring strength and core strength as well. Are you doing work to strengthen the entire posterior chain? Good mornings, GHR's, pull-thrus, SLDL...lots of weighted and hanging ab work. These core strengtheners plus stretching should hopefully help. You might try rotating your traditional squatting with the box squats again. Are you wearing a tight belt or wearing it loosely so you are able to breathe in through your belly and push out against the belt? Just things to consider. Take care.

I did some light box squats tonight actually. I kept tight but had some discomfort in the hip area...stretching seemed to help though. Damn it was painful! I'm as flexible as a piece of iron.

 

[cmdubs]

When you get the chance, make sure to check out elitefts.com. The amount of information from them for free is staggering.

Like QS said, it sounds like you might need to work more on the whole posterior chain. With your lower back rounding when you go deep it is a sign of not being tight.....I mean to say that your back probably isn't maintaining an arch in the lower AND upper back. When you place your hands on the bar, squeeze your shoulder blades together and pull your elbows forward to get a good arch.

Your hamstrings are probably pretty tight....this could also be leading to losing your arch. Do you ever get back problems? Ever get sore in the lower back region? You need to make sure you are training your abs as well as lower back, glutes and hamstrings. Tomorrow I can post more if you wish.

I'll check out that link for sure...thanks.

Did some stretching tonight and my hamstrings are fuggin tight! I did the stretch where you sit on the floor, pull one leg back and lean forward. I could barely point my foot to the ceiling and it was killing me...from the calves to my hips...let alone actually leaning forward...ridiculous.

 

[Quadsweeps Sister]

I did some light box squats tonight actually. I kept tight but had some discomfort in the hip area...stretching seemed to help though. Damn it was painful! I'm as flexible as a piece of iron.

The hip flexors are taking a beating. My left butt cheek on the outside has been yelling at me for a couple days now.

A stretch to try....
--Grab a pair of dumbbells around 30lbs. Sit in the Indian style but instead of crossing your legs - put the soles of your feet together and slide them back in toward your crotch as close as you can get them. Because you are tight - your knees will probably be high off the floor. Take the dumbbells and slowly place them one at a time on each knee. I kind of have to hook them on there - you'll find a way. Once the the dumbbell weight is on the knee, breathe slowly and try to relax so as time passes your knees will slowly relax toward the floor. It may take a bit of time or more weight to relax them down. Just don't make any sudden movements - go slow and easy to protect your hips. If you keep doing this stretch over time - it will help with some of the pain in the hip & hamstring area. Good luck!