Speechless

[tuc biscuit]

I just read that in Pakistan a woman of 19 and a man of 21 were taken to a remote field each had both their arms and legs broken in several places and were then shot in the forehead and killed by tribal elders.


Their crime?


Marrying for love instead of into an arranged marriage.

 

[ZKaudio]

culture supercedes common sense in much of world. American's do not understand this... (me included)

 

[Burning_Inside]

Awwwwww shux who are we to judge.

I guess to other cultures life just isn't as precious as marriage for the right reasons.

 

[Mandinka2]

I thought the Indians were the worst for this kind of caste crap... you got a link tuc?

 

[tuc biscuit]

No, read it in a newspaper this morning, the girl's uncle was involved and no-one will meet any cosiqeunces for it.

 

[Mandinka2]

No, read it in a newspaper this morning, the girl's uncle was involved and no-one will meet any cosiqeunces for it.

Just picked it up in an Irish newspaper tuc ,thanks. Here's the deal folks:



Young lovers shot dead for Pakistan tribe's honour


THE young couple's screams went unheard as four gunmen dragged them to a field. Two gunshots rang out.

Shazia Hason and husband Mohammed Hason Solangi were executed, each shot in the forehead, last week after tribal elders in this remote southern Pakistani town found them guilty of marrying for love instead of following the custom of arranged marriage.

Mir Hason, the girl's father, has been charged with leading the death squad.

"They had brought dishonour to our tribe," said Chutto Khan, the girl's uncle and another of the accused.

Shazia and Mohammed are the latest victims of honour killing, which costs hundreds of lives each year in Pakistan's tribal region. More than 650 women and six girls were killed, mostly by family, in the first eight months of 2003, according to Pakistan's independent Human Rights Commission.

Shazia, 19, committed the ultimate 'crime' under tribal code when she married a man from a rival tribe. She met 21-year-old taxi driver Mohammed Hason from the Solangi tribe a few months ago on her way to teacher training college. They started meeting secretly but it was difficult to hide the liaison in a small, conservative town and fearing for their lives they fled to Karachi to marry.

They returned to Sanghar after the bride's father complained to police that Mohammed Hason had abducted his daughter. He claimed she was already engaged to another man.

The bride's father met Khaskheli tribesmen at his house and they decided the couple must die.

On October 7 Mr Hason and other tribesmen allegedly abducted the couple, who were going to the police station for protection. The next day their bodies were found in the field.

"The boy was badly tortured before he was shot dead," said police investigator Zahid Ahmed. "His legs and arms were broken."

Shazia's mother, suspected of helping her daughter elope, had her head shaved as punishment.

While Mr Hason and Mr Khan are under arrest, two other men wanted over the murders have fled.

The killings are against the law but traditional attitudes still prevail in conservative rural areas. Police and the judiciary often fail to prosecute the killers and Pakistani law allows criminal prosecution only if a victim's family wants to pursue it. They commonly do not in honour killings.

Often an accused woman has no chance to explain or defend herself. Of this year's killings, husbands were blamed for 247, brothers 112, fathers 54, sons 25 and uncles two. In other cases the killer was not identified.

"The number of women who fall victim to honour killings is definitely much higher than the reported cases, but it is hard to record each case, especially when you don't have enough resources," said Zia Awan of Lawyers for Human Rights and Legal Aid. (© The Times, London)

Zahid Hussain
in Sanghar

 

[robby]

sometimes i can't believe what happens in some cultures!
there are so sad things going on our planet. do you remember
the women in africa who will be stoned to death for having
a children some months after breaking her marriage? just one
word: too many stupids on earth. i mean i try to respect other
cultures, but such things i can't.

 

[2Thick]

I feel like I am going to vomit from reading that....how can someone kill his mother?

 

[IHateAmerica]

A friend of mine in the USA went to jail for smoking a plant.

Another found a 8-year-old girl bleeding from between her legs in Texas by the side of the road at night. He took her to the hospital and was arrested shortly thereafter. The guy didnt speak a word of English but they made him sign a confession and he's been in prison for the past few years. Currently his family send over as much cash as they can (most of what they make) every month and buy protection for him. He is still pounded in the ass regularly. The girl who was raped says he didnt do it.

Some countries are pretty fookin backwards, huh?

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

A friend of mine in the USA went to jail for smoking a plant.

Another found a 8-year-old girl bleeding from between her legs in Texas by the side of the road at night. He took her to the hospital and was arrested shortly thereafter. The guy didnt speak a word of English but they made him sign a confession and he's been in prison for the past few years. Currently his family send over as much cash as they can (most of what they make) every month and buy protection for him. He is still pounded in the ass regularly. The girl who was raped says he didnt do it.

Some countries are pretty fookin backwards, huh?

the atrocities in the us justice system are unacceptable.

 

[Hengst]

A glimpse into the future of the US if we continue to allow unbridled third world immigration.

 

[PCxPete]

i think that could be a bit of an exageration. but i live in australia so i cant really comment.

ive said it before, we have it pretty good over here and things like this remind me never to take it for granted

 

[tuc biscuit]

i think that could be a bit of an exageration.

There was a picture of them and they looked like they had what was described happen to them, what a weird thought that that happens on the same planet as I/you live on.

 

[Mandinka2]

There was a picture of them and they looked like they had what was described happen to them, what a weird thought that that happens on the same planet as I/you live on.

Hell no , our forefathers did the same and worse in times of war , and if we think we are so "civilised" that we wouldn't do the same then IMHO we're just sticking our head in the sand.

 

[PCxPete]

"A glimpse into the future of the US if we continue to allow unbridled third world immigration"

^ i thought that was a bit over the top. i dont disagree with the initial report one bit

 

[Imnotdutch]

What many people don't realise is that honour killings happen within some ethnic communities even in the 'civilised' (??!!) world. The reason can be as simple as a girl acting in a manner that is considered too westernised.

It is very easy to point the finger and criticise.........but all cultures do things that tohers would consider wrong.

 

[plornive]

What many people don't realise is that honour killings happen within some ethnic communities even in the 'civilised' (??!!) world. The reason can be as simple as a girl acting in a manner that is considered too westernised.

I can criticize that, too.

It is very easy to point the finger and criticise.........but all cultures do things that tohers would consider wrong.

How about pointing the finger at cultural conformity and stupidity. I understand what you are saying. Maybe if I was that uncle, I would have participated in the killings. But that doesn't mean it isn't wrong in many (higher level) contexts.

 

[Imnotdutch]

I can criticize that, too.

How about pointing the finger at cultural conformity and stupidity. I understand what you are saying. Maybe if I was that uncle, I would have participated in the killings. But that doesn't mean it isn't wrong in many contexts.

I am not justifying the killings. However, within that girls community there is a strong sense of what is right and what is wrong. She effectively brought shame to her entire family........that is how they see it. So I can see why it happened.

In these cases the family is put before the individual (families can benefit greatly from arranged marriages). It could be argued that this benefits more people than get hurt by it. In the west we tend to do the reverse........individuals needs come first.

 

[plornive]

I am not justifying the killings. However, within that girls community there is a strong sense of what is right and what is wrong. She effectively brought shame to her entire family........that is how they see it. So I can see why it happened.

In these cases the family is put before the individual (families can benefit greatly from arranged marriages). It could be argued that this benefits more people than get hurt by it. In the west we tend to do the reverse........individuals needs come first.

Yes, and I am saying that modern values are a lobe of the cultural brain that these people (not all of Pakistan of course) have not developed yet. Modern values can understand them. But they cannot understand modern values. Therefore, modern values are better.

 

[plornive]

I reallize some people hold many contradicting values simultaneously. But modern values as a collective consciousness can understand old traditional values, while traditional values as a collective consciousness cannot understand modern values.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Yes, and I am saying that modern values are a lobe of the cultural brain that these people (not all of Pakistan of course) have not developed yet. Modern values can understand them. But they cannot understand modern values. Therefore, modern values are better.

They dont understand modern values? I think they can understand them........they just dont agree with them.

I dont think that you can say either is superior.

 

[plornive]

By the way Dutch, have you ever impinged/tore a rotator cuff (in the back of the shoulder on the overhand side) from deadlifts? I just did a pull a few days ago, never had problems before, and now it feels like tendonitis or something, and happens whenever I would assume my rear rotator functions.

 

[Imnotdutch]

By the way Dutch, have you ever impinged/tore a rotator cuff (in the back of the shoulder on the overhand side) from deadlifts? I just did a pull a few days ago, never had problems before, and now it feels like tendonitis or something, and happens whenever I would assume my rear rotator functions.

No I havent. Only ever had rotator problems when benching too heavy without appropriate warm up. When this happened I took a couple of weeks off (until shoulder felt good when moved in all directions) and made sure I warmed up properly.

Give it a rest.......that all that I can suggest. Sorry.

Hope it heals quickly.

 

[plornive]

They dont understand modern values? I think they can understand them........they just dont agree with them.

I dont think that you can say either is superior.

I am not attacking the people. I'm attacking their values.

I reallize some people hold many contradicting values simultaneously. But modern values as a collective consciousness can understand old traditional values, while traditional values as a collective consciousness cannot understand modern values.

Honour killing demonstrates a lack of civility. I reallize my above quote is abstract, so let me bring it back to earth. The modern state of the world would not exist if everyone behaved this way. Many political and sociological theorists and researchers believe that a civil society is a more enlightened and vibrant society.

I guess I prefer to choose a context. You are "right" I guess.

 

[plornive]

No I havent. Only ever had rotator problems when benching too heavy without appropriate warm up. When this happened I took a couple of weeks off (until shoulder felt good when moved in all directions) and made sure I warmed up properly.

Give it a rest.......that all that I can suggest. Sorry.

Hope it heals quickly.

Thanks.

Now, about those killings...

 

[Imnotdutch]

Thanks.

Now, about those killings...

What about them?

Life in Pakistan can be pretty damn tough. Your chances of survival are greatly enhanced if you are supported by the community. Alienating yourself from the community by having a daughter who behaves inappropriately (by their criteria) therefore threatens the survival of your whole family.

Better to lose one daughter than your whole family.

 

[plornive]

As a sidenote, the Chinese, as late as the Qing dynasty, looked at westerners as barbarians. I guess that would count against my point.

 

[plornive]

What about them?

Life in Pakistan can be pretty damn tough. Your chances of survival are greatly enhanced if you are supported by the community. Alienating yourself from the community by having a daughter who behaves inappropriately (by their criteria) therefore threatens the survival of your whole family.

Better to lose one daughter than your whole family.

I didn't really mean anything by that comment. Again, I;m not criticising the people. I'm criticising the cultural environment that led to their actions.

 

[Imnotdutch]

As a sidenote, the Chinese, as late as the Qing dynasty, looked at westerners as barbarians. I guess that would count against my point.

Uh huh.........even now the Chinese and Japanese consider themselves better than us. It all depends on your perspective.

On the whole westerners are incredibly disrespectful to one another.........do little to guide their young along the right path (go to any high school and look at the behaviour to see what I mean)........

 

[Imnotdutch]

I didn't really mean anything by that comment. Again, I;m not criticising the people. I'm criticising the cultural environment that led to their actions.

Their cultural environment has arisen at least in part due to the physical environment. Hence my comment. Admittedly it doesnt help that their strong religious beliefs advocate strong repercussions for 'inappropriate' behaviour.

 

[plornive]

Uh huh.........even now the Chinese and Japanese consider themselves better than us. It all depends on your perspective.

On the whole westerners are incredibly disrespectful to one another.........do little to guide their young along the right path (go to any high school and look at the behaviour to see what I mean)........

I agree with your 1st paragraph. If your 2nd paragraph is just exemplifying the first, then I also agree.

 

[Imnotdutch]

I agree with your 1st paragraph. If your 2nd paragraph is just exemplifying the first, then I also agree. [/QUOTE
Then we agree on something.........

 

[plornive]

Their cultural environment has arisen at least in part due to the physical environment. Hence my comment. Admittedly it doesnt help that their strong religious beliefs advocate strong repercussions for 'inappropriate' behaviour.

Yes. This is probably true of most cultural environments and the actions that result. That doesn't mean a cultural environment should not be judged. And to make a judgement, one needs some kind of context. Taken to the ultimate level, there is no good or bad. Judged in the context of civility and modernity, some cultural environments are better than others.

I reallize that the physical environment in question is kind of harsh. All the more reason to criticize it.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Yes. This is probably true of most cultural environments and the actions that result. That doesn't mean a cultural environment should not be judged. And to make a judgement, one needs some kind of context. Taken to the ultimate level, there is no good or bad. Judged in the context of civility and modernity, some cultural environments are better than others.

I reallize that the physical environment in question is kind of harsh. All the more reason to criticize it.

But IMO the physical environment in which a particular cultural environment is manifested must be given due consideration. a more western approach would likely fail in Pakistan.

 

[plornive]

But IMO the physical environment in which a particular cultural environment is manifested must be given due consideration. a more western approach would likely fail in Pakistan.

Ok, I guess I need to learn to express my ideas better. The physical environment is part of the cultural environment. I am assuming you don't mean the physical environment like the climate, vegetation, etc. I am not criticising the people who commit honour killings. I am criticising the entire environment that led to it. Furthermore, I also am not saying there is anything we can/should do about it (but maybe there is?).

Even so, I also think a western approach could force values down peoples' throats to some extent, good or bad. Not completely, but at least partially. Howerver, this is off-topic, and I am not saying the idea is a good one.

Let me ask you something. Do you think there is a point to defining a "good" or "bad" value? How would you define it? And if not, then why not? Would you replace this with more specific, literal evaluations?

 

[plornive]

Let me add that values exist somewhat independently of the consciousnesses that adhere to them.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Values are relative to your perspective. For instance my values woudl be very different to those of the people who carried out the mercy killings. You can only define them as good or bad within a particular cultural environment. So you can label them if you wish but I dont think that judgement can be carried over into a different environment unless it is re-evaluated.

I think labelling things as good or bad can lead to oversimplifying things. If you dont understand why something is good or bad then it is pointless........and there are grey areas where things could be put into either category (abortion, euthanasia etc.

Ok, I guess I need to learn to express my ideas better. The physical environment is part of the cultural environment. I am assuming you don't mean the physical environment like the climate, vegetation, etc. I am not criticising the people who commit honour killings. I am criticising the entire environment that led to it. Furthermore, I also am not saying there is anything we can/should do about it (but maybe there is?).

Even so, I also think a western approach could force values down peoples' throats to some extent, good or bad. Not completely, but at least partially. Howerver, this is off-topic, and I am not saying the idea is a good one.

Let me ask you something. Do you think there is a point to defining a "good" or "bad" value? How would you define it? And if not, then why not? Would you replace this with more specific, literal evaluations?

 

[plornive]

Values are relative to your perspective. For instance my values woudl be very different to those of the people who carried out the mercy killings. You can only define them as good or bad within a particular cultural environment. So you can label them if you wish but I dont think that judgement can be carried over into a different environment unless it is re-evaluated.

I think labelling things as good or bad can lead to oversimplifying things. If you dont understand why something is good or bad then it is pointless........and there are grey areas where things could be put into either category (abortion, euthanasia etc.

Actually I think we are talking about different things. I am not talking an individual's choice of values. I'm talking about the actual values of a society. I am talking about a cultural environment, as a matter of fact. I agree with your response, by the way.

 

[Imnotdutch]

It is quite likely that we are talking about different things.......I am watching England get all flustered int he rugby........I feel like shit........I'm marking the kid's books and I'm trying to think aobut this topic

Actually I think we are talking about different things. I am not talking about an individual's values. I'm talking about the values of a society. I am talking about a cultural environment, as a matter of fact. I agree with your response, by the way.

 

[plornive]

It is quite likely that we are talking about different things.......I am watching England get all flustered int he rugby........I feel like shit........I'm marking the kid's books and I'm trying to think aobut this topic

And I am procrastinating

 

[Imnotdutch]

And I am procrastinating

No big deal..........interesting topic.

 

[Gymgurl]

Pretty sad that they can't have a mind of their own!

 

[Imnotdutch]

Pretty sad that they can't have a mind of their own!

Well yes it is.........but there are reasons for the way that they live.

 

[Gymgurl]

I can have respect for what they believe in. I just can't imagine having to marry someone becasue my parents arranged it. I have seen some pretty impressing stats that they do stay married longer than most others. So I guess I could be a positive thing in some way

 

[Imnotdutch]

I can have respect for what they believe in. I just can't imagine having to marry someone becasue my parents arranged it. I have seen some pretty impressing stats that they do stay married longer than most others. So I guess I could be a positive thing in some way

Often they do some say in who they marry. Parents usually take it into consideration.........unless the kid is proving to be exceptionally picky.

 

[plornive]

My "1st love" was a Pakistani girl and our relationship had to be completely secret from her parents (for 16 months). When the parents found out, found contraceptive pills, letters, etc. they harrassed me and finally moved the entire family from south florida to california (to remove her from the situation completely).

 

[Eddie_Johnson]

That's just f***ed up!