Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

Something We Can All Argue About

Nelson Montana

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
Okay, I'm going to stay out of this one. I have my opinion, and I know I'm right : ) - but I'll leave it up to everyone to draw their own conclusions.

Here's the hypothetical scenario.

Two subjects with equal genetics.

One goes on the keto diet but eats a surplus of calories.

The other eats a balanced diet with a calorie deficit.

Both follow the exact same training routine.

At the end of one month, who losses more fat?
 
it all depends on the kind of training you do. If the calories arent burned the balanced diet will lose more. I am in no way saying im right but just my idea.
 
yes if they are both working their asses off then the one with high calories should work better cause you wont lose as much muscle...
 
That's an interesting scenario. Subject number 2 is just begging to be picked due to the calorie deficit in his diet, but, if subject number one's caloric surplus is small, he might very well lose more fat due to lack of insulin (lets face it, fat loss is a bit more complicated than just calories in vs. calories out).
 
I can tell you that the one fellowing the keto diet will likely loss more muscle mass.

I think that you can still take your carbs when you diet down. But you must take them at the right time and take low-glycemic carbs. That's what I think.
 
Koivu_11 said:
I can tell you that the one fellowing the keto diet will likely loss more muscle mass.

I think that you can still take your carbs when you diet down. But you must take them at the right time and take low-glycemic carbs. That's what I think.
Click to expand...

I meant that even with a calorie surplus, the one with the keto diet will loose muscle mass. And strenght too.
 
nelson must liove to start the arguements. But i love how his posts make you think and actually try to use logic
 
I have to disagree, Koivu, because I, along with numerous others, have been able to gain muscle (breaking a plateau in weight, too) on a keto diet.

Would you like to explain your reasoning behind the muscle loss? I haven't really seen anyone go into the subject of losing muscle on keto without resorting to "ketoacidosis" as an argument (which is just dumb).
 
The Keto diet. You dont mentiom where his calories come from but on a keto diet he's watch out for insulin spikes and therefore must be eating low glycemic foods. He will loss more fat and some muscle but not that much if he maintains the right protein intake
 
the keto diet may result in more fat lost, but in my experience, even on steroids it results in much more muscle mass lost as well
 
At the end of one month? Keto, hands down. Might lose more muscle too, but definately more fat.
 
ohashi said:
I have to disagree, Koivu, because I, along with numerous others, have been able to gain muscle (breaking a plateau in weight, too) on a keto diet.

Would you like to explain your reasoning behind the muscle loss? I haven't really seen anyone go into the subject of losing muscle on keto without resorting to "ketoacidosis" as an argument (which is just dumb).
Click to expand...

Glycocen depletion, plain and simple. Since there's no glycogen, well almost none, at a given time, the body is likely to make the cortisol level go up and increase protein degradation. The muscle will also feel less fuller. And the actual muscle strenght is likely to decrease too, since the sources of energy are only ketones and ATP. Since there's more cortisol in the body there's also a little bit less CP synthesis in the muscle cells. All in all, it's very catabolic IMO. Were you on something like HGH or Test when you ran your high cal keto diet??? Because HGH would really have a great effect on decreasing injury risks and catabolism while on a keto diet.
 
i would guess the guy with the calorie deficit

i am of the belief that if there is no calorie deficit, one can not lose fat.
 
I like this post.

I would say the one with the calorie deficit, and I beleive nelsonwill agree with me.

I retain more muscle and burn more fat when I eat carbs, because I can train with intensity!

All you people saying that keto will burn more fat - you are contradicting yourself...
Keto obviously slows metabolism more than other diets. Keto causes you to lose more muscle. Do the math!
 
Koivu_11 said:


Glycocen depletion, plain and simple. Since there's no glycogen, well almost none, at a given time, the body is likely to make the cortisol level go up and increase protein degradation. The muscle will also feel less fuller. And the actual muscle strenght is likely to decrease too, since the sources of energy are only ketones and ATP. Since there's more cortisol in the body there's also a little bit less CP synthesis in the muscle cells. All in all, it's very catabolic IMO. Were you on something like HGH or Test when you ran your high cal keto diet??? Because HGH would really have a great effect on decreasing injury risks and catabolism while on a keto diet.
Click to expand...

No, so far, I've never been on anything. However, the keto diet that I did was CKD (refeeds), so glycogen stores were replentished twice a week. The original post said nothing about refeeds, so now I don't know...
 
Oh shit, I assumed that by Keto he meant CKD. Keto alone, I'm not sure. I'd never try that anyway. Gotta refeed.
 
hardrock said:
Oh shit, I assumed that by Keto he meant CKD. Keto alone, I'm not sure. I'd never try that anyway. Gotta refeed.
Click to expand...

Of course I was referring to keto only, not the ckd one. Even with the cyclic keto diet, some of the principles I mentioned still apply, to a lesser extent though.
 
The study that was already mentioned clearly shows that the low-carb approach burns off more fat at equal calorie levels. I would dare to say the low carb group could have eaten some surplus calories and still lost more fat.

The sacrifice in glycogen levels that result from a low carb / keto diet may make the muscles less full but once a degree of leanness has been achieved, the muscles will have a harder cut appearance. Depleted glycogen will not raise Cortisol, at least once one has gradually adapted to this state over a period of time. However there is some linkage between chronically high Insulin levels and high Cortisol levels. And do not confuse keto with zero-carb, there can be some carbs to help energize for, and after, workouts.

Those that most frequently critique the low-carb approach seem to ignore that the basis for this diet plan is hormonal manipulation vs. calorie deprivation. Insulin being one of the most powerful hormones in the body (way more so than sex hormones) in regards to importance to life and also effect on various health parameters. The concept of using diet to manipulate hormone levels to suit our needs, is all radical thinking to old-school nutritionalists.

Why do some people doubt insulin manipulation can be a powerful tool? Most on this board readily admit steroids can transform a body. So why is it that optimizing Insulin levels (which can be achieved through diet alone) is not viable - their viewpoints show some fundamental gaps in understanding how the body works and responds to different types of food, and the powerful and comprehensive role of Insulin in various areas of metabolism.

Now in regards to optimization, I agree the best bet is to keep your sensitivity to insulin high (youthful), then you can eat carbs more liberally and still get into a fat burning zone cause your insulin levels will not be chronically high (and your glycogen levels will be good). But even doing all the right things in this area (primarily exercise) as we age we will most likely still need to watch the carb intake. People do not realize how completely over-loaded the average Joe's diet is with carbs. Bodybuilding lifestyle and diet is not like the average Joe's but I and my long-term lift partners have still found we have to watch the carbs much more closely now than when we were 20.
 
Last edited:
I agree with Koivu_11
Glycocen depletion, plain and simple.
Click to expand...

But I'll take it a step further and say athletic performance & mental sharpness goes way down on Keto diets (along w/ my sex drive). I can't even function on them since I've got jitz 3x / week and need glycogen or else boom.. i'm tapped.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Okay, I'm going to stay out of this one. I have my opinion, and I know I'm right : ) - but I'll leave it up to everyone to draw their own conclusions.

Here's the hypothetical scenario.

Two subjects with equal genetics.

One goes on the keto diet but eats a surplus of calories.

The other eats a balanced diet with a calorie deficit.

Both follow the exact same training routine.

At the end of one month, who losses more fat?
Click to expand...

IF THEY ARE BOTH ENDOMORPHS, THEN THE WINNER IS THE KETO DIET. ENDOMORPHS ARE THE EVOLUTIONARY FAT BURNERS AND THEIR BODIES LOVE KETOSIS. IF EATING THE BALANCED DIET, THEIR BODIES WILL SACRIFICE MUSCLE AND SPARE FAT. MESOMORPHS AND ECTOMORPHS WILL FAIR BETTER ON THE BALANCED DIET, WITH NO FORCED FEEDING. BTW, ECTOMORPHS NEED ONLY RETURN TO NORMAL EATING FROM FORCED FEEDING TO LOSE ANY ACCESS WEIGHT (FAT OR MUSCLE). MESOMORPHS WILL DO FINE ON THE BALANCED DIET.
 
It doesn't matter if it's an ecthomorph or a schmectomorph, SDK or regular Keto, zero carb, or re-feeding low carb or Atkins.









The answer is...




















Number two.





The only reason the Keto diet (which is just a re-working of many diets that existed prior) became poplar was because it can lean you out quickly (i.e.dehydrate you) which is good for BB's entering a show or athletes who need to make weight. This principle was then marketed to the gullable bodybuilder audience as a miracle method for losing fat. (By a guy who wasn't even a bodybuilder, but he knew where the suckers were). He was also a bt of a geek and knew how to use scientific terms to appeal to the other "unappreciated intellectual" types who had a new toy called "the internet" and the myth began to spread.

As far back as the 1940's boxers would eat just steak and salad for a week and go in the steam room and come out 10 pounds lighter. As soon as they finished weighing in, they go home , eat a plate of pancakes, drink a glass of water and gain the 10 pounds right back.




Yeah, I knew I said I was going to stay out of it, but I just couldn't resist.
 
Ahh, Lyle. Misc.fitness own little 'guru'. Not only him, but that whole group is messed up. They are worse there than any board I've been too. They jump all over the latest guru, and then when something else comes alone, they claim the old method crap and now the new thing is the one and only. For years they all praised HIT, and then hst comes out and now hit is crap. But one thing always remains, Lyle and his crap books.

On that note, I'll go with #2. From my own personal experience, and those around me, that is what works best. Nope, I don't have a single study, just what's worked for me.
 
Number two will never be right for the obese. That diet has failures for hundreds of years for the obese (endomorph). If I only owned weight watchers, jenny craig, and a host of others and Nelson was my spokesperson, I would be a wealthy man.
 
DrJMW said:
Number two will never be right for the obese. That diet has failures for hundreds of years for the obese (endomorph). If I only owned weight watchers, jenny craig, and a host of others and Nelson was my spokesperson, I would be a wealthy man.
Click to expand...


That's funny. I know a lot of fat (non bodybuilding) people who did great on Weight Watchers. There is a caveat however; you have to stick to it. People quit, add the weight back on, and then complain it didn't work.

BTW; I think it's ridiculous to pay to join something that essentially tells you to limit calories so I'm not endorsing Weight Watchers. But it does work and some people need to have their hand held. It's no different from a bodybuilder who pays for personalized diet advice which is basically the same concept. More protein, less calories. The end. That'll be $600 please.
 
DrJMW said:
Number two will never be right for the obese. That diet has failures for hundreds of years for the obese (endomorph). If I only owned weight watchers, jenny craig, and a host of others and Nelson was my spokesperson, I would be a wealthy man.
Click to expand...

No offense, DrJMW, I respect you knowledge -

But how can a balanced calorie defict diet fail an endomorph or anyone trying to loose weight?

I mean seriously - I can't beleive that if you are truely staying calorie defict that you aren't loosing weight. I always look and listen to those people and laugh. I have always thought they weren't sticking to their diet and they were lying to themselves.

Your body can't produce more body weight out of thin air... I think they are failing thier diet, the diet isn't failing them.


JH1
 
Bodytype MATTERS.

(I had a whole long response typed, but it is worthless to reason with you)

-sk
 
Re: Re: Something We Can All Argue About

DrJMW said:


IF THEY ARE BOTH ENDOMORPHS, THEN THE WINNER IS THE KETO DIET. ENDOMORPHS ARE THE EVOLUTIONARY FAT BURNERS AND THEIR BODIES LOVE KETOSIS. IF EATING THE BALANCED DIET, THEIR BODIES WILL SACRIFICE MUSCLE AND SPARE FAT. MESOMORPHS AND ECTOMORPHS WILL FAIR BETTER ON THE BALANCED DIET, WITH NO FORCED FEEDING. BTW, ECTOMORPHS NEED ONLY RETURN TO NORMAL EATING FROM FORCED FEEDING TO LOSE ANY ACCESS WEIGHT (FAT OR MUSCLE). MESOMORPHS WILL DO FINE ON THE BALANCED DIET.
Click to expand...

I agree with Dr. J on this point.

I've observed this in one of my close friends. He is a straight Endo, but is pretty much Keto all the time... it seems like all he has lost is fat. In fact, it looks like he has gained some muscle since he started... this would never be the case with me (ecto/meso)

JJ
 
I would love Nelson to tell Pulumbo that he doesn't know what he is doing.

This thread is a fucking joke.

-sk
 
Oh, the Keto diet will work...
,,,if you're in a calorie deficit.






sk: Stop being a jackass, okay? It's getting obnoxious. Nobody had a problem with this thread until you came along to piss on it. If you can't offer anything which is usually the case...sssssh.
 
Nelson Montana said:



As far back as the 1940's boxers would eat just steak and salad for a week and go in the steam room and come out 10 pounds lighter. As soon as they finished weighing in, they go home , eat a plate of pancakes, drink a glass of water and gain the 10 pounds right back.

Click to expand...

That is so true. You would also not believe in this current day how many boxers still need to go to extreme (in terms of weightlosss of up to 10lbs) to obtain correct weigh in weight 12-24 hours prior. The carb / water load after is required but does have an adverse effect.

Good thread very interesting

Wrongun!
 
granby140 said:
it all depends on the kind of training you do. If the calories arent burned the balanced diet will lose more. I am in no way saying im right but just my idea.
Click to expand...

The Keto diet. I was eating 7000cal on my last contest diet and got below 4.5% before having to cut my calories. Let me tell you, 7000 clean calories is horrible to consume.

Quad
 
Thank you Quad. I was going to sit this one out, because I don't want to type a 10 page explination. I get sick of arguing this point.
 
sh4dowf4lcon said:
lower calories and training with a balanced diet
Click to expand...
I Really disagree Nelson. All my competitive clients will end up on a Keto diet the last 4-6 weeks and I train an IFBB fitness pro and a dude that will be Pro next week if my guess is right. It works much better for muscle retention. I do do a trwice a week carb up to replenish glycogen stores and trick the thyroid into upping production again. It is also nice because you are already depleted and can just carb load when the time is right. I hate carb diets. I starve on them and my fat loss is much less. To each his own but I KNOW Keto diets work well.

Quad
 
I was 200lbs in the 8th grade, hit 220 in the 10th. Only thing that got my fatass to get under 10% was a ketogenic type diet. After that, I have tried lowering calories, but I don't do well with the presence of carbohydrates.

So once again, please name the people that you have "worked with" to come to your conclusions. Otherwise, studies done on yourself don't mean much as you had visbile abs in all your pictures.

---

Lowering calories is very important in burning fat, but macronutrient breakdown is even more important. Try eating 100% carbs on a fairly restricted calorie intake, and get back to me on how much fat you lost.

-sk
 
Quad: In my original response,I said t's good fo competitors trying to dial in, it just isn't practical on a full time basis, as you yourself insinuated. (Eating like that is hell) And if you ate crabs, hat'snot really the Keto diet -- it's more like the Anabolic diet. But I maintain that it was the "cleanliness" of your eating that made it work so well.

sk: Irrelevant. I said a BALANCED diet.
 
Nelson Montana said:
sk: Irrelevant. I said a BALANCED diet.
Click to expand...

It isn't irrelevant. My first part of the post said why keto is "good," and second part took what you said to the extreme to make a point. Not irrelevant at all.

I would love to hear just one endomorph that has done good on something like the iso-caloric diet, and by good I mean got to ~ 8%. Reality is, most of the pro bodybuilders from the 70's that you love and even the ones now were all skinny kids at a younger age. You can't possibly make such a broad statement like "a balanced diet is the best."

I'm genetically a big bone structured guy, I easilly maintain 240-250lbs at a height of 6'3 and approx. 12% bodyfat without much effort (no gear, and eating whatever I like). There is one thing that makes all the difference for me when it comes to strength, weight gain, and weight loss ... any guesses on what it is? Well, it's carbs. In the begining, it is always the water gain/loss that makes the difference, but after the initial stage I have always noticed a much faster fatloss with keto than something like the iso-caloric diet.

(BTW, I don't like straight keto cause of the lbm loss associated with it, I would prefer something like CKD, TKD, or bodyopus)

Something like very low carbs, without reaching ketosis, is a decent idea too ... but please, none of this balanced diet crap for me.

Go check out the diet board please, look at all the results people get from keto type diets. ALL these people have first started with a balanced diet approach, and only because it is common sense to lower caloric intake.

-sk
 
Nelson Montana said:
Quad: In my original response,I said t's good fo competitors trying to dial in, it just isn't practical on a full time basis, as you yourself insinuated. (Eating like that is hell) And if you ate crabs, hat'snot really the Keto diet -- it's more like the Anabolic diet. But I maintain that it was the "cleanliness" of your eating that made it work so well.
Click to expand...

This is another thing I don't get, since when was the discussion about convinience?

We were talking about the best approach, right? If it is good for competitiors, than it is good for everyone.

-sk
 
sk: We're more in agreement than you may realize. I too believe in low carbs, especially for endomorphs. If for nothing else, carbs are easy to eat and easil digested and add up quickly in terms of overall calories. Plus there's the insulin issue. But that isn't the keto diet. You admit that yourself.

And what is good for competitors is NOT good for everyone. Competitors have to look their best ONE DAY. 99% of us want to remain as lean as possible all the time.
 
"If for nothing else, carbs are easy to eat and easil digested and add up quickly in terms of overall calories."

I am not talking about ease of eating. Assuming it is a very strict diet with the amount of necessary carbs ate ...

"Plus there's the insulin issue. But that isn't the keto diet. You admit that yourself."

Low carbs lower insulin resistence. It directly affects it, and as I am sure you know that endomorphs tend to have a problem with slin resistence. It is the end result that matters, so why not do a ketogenic type diet which will lower insulin resistence and aid in fatloss. Why make it complicated???

"And what is good for competitors is NOT good for everyone. Competitors have to look their best ONE DAY. 99% of us want to remain as lean as possible all the time."

Man, you were saying ketogenic diets are bad cause you can lose more fat on a "balanced diet", why do you keep changing your words? Please stick by them.

The second quad jumped in, you backed off.

If you are saying an iso-caloric diet is easier, well buddy, I would have agreed with you from the start.

Keto is hard, but it works. Will you deny this? Will you deny it works better than what you call a "balanced diet"? How do you exactly even define a balanced diet?

-sk
 
sk* said:
"If for nothing else, carbs are easy to eat and easil digested and add up quickly in terms of overall calories."

I am not talking about ease of eating. Assuming it is a very strict diet with the amount of necessary carbs ate ...

"Plus there's the insulin issue. But that isn't the keto diet. You admit that yourself."

Low carbs lower insulin resistence. It directly affects it, and as I am sure you know that endomorphs tend to have a problem with slin resistence. It is the end result that matters, so why not do a ketogenic type diet which will lower insulin resistence and aid in fatloss. Why make it complicated???

"And what is good for competitors is NOT good for everyone. Competitors have to look their best ONE DAY. 99% of us want to remain as lean as possible all the time."

Man, you were saying ketogenic diets are bad cause you can lose more fat on a "balanced diet", why do you keep changing your words? Please stick by them.

The second quad jumped in, you backed off.

If you are saying an iso-caloric diet is easier, well buddy, I would have agreed with you from the start.

Keto is hard, but it works. Will you deny this? Will you deny it works better than what you call a "balanced diet"? How do you exactly even define a balanced diet?

-sk
Click to expand...

Huh??? I think you're confused. My words haven't changed at all other than I elaborated some of the explanations. I also didn't back off from anything. I think that's what you choose to see it. In fact, I pointed out that Quad reiterated what I said. The only difference of is in the terminology and the fact that I believe his success was more due to the food choices than the actual diet plan or conception of a diet plan.

What is a BALANCED DIET? If you don't know that by now, I'm not going to explain it to you. Do a little more studying -- then we can talk some more.
 
Nelson Montana said:


Huh??? I think you're confused. My words haven't changed at all other than I elaborated some of the explanations. I also didn't back off from anything. I think that's what you choose to see it. In fact, I pointed out that Quad reiterated what I said. The only difference of is in the terminology and the fact that I believe his success was more due to the food choices than the actual diet plan or conception of a diet plan.

What is a BALANCED DIET? If you don't know that by now, I'm not going to explain it to you. Do a little more studying -- then we can talk some more.
Click to expand...

Oh man, why did I even bother?

Go re-read your posts again, you always change what you say. I'm done with this bs.

Point is, keto burns more fat than a "balanced diet" and it is much better suited for endomorphs. If you are gonna argue this, tell me why other than that it is easier to do.

-sk
 
Last edited:
Okay, for the last time.

Keto will burn more fat -- for a short while -- then it becomes stressing to the metabolism and very catabolic. Of course, high dosages of steroids will counteract this to a degree. But steroids always help. It doesn't really matter what diet you use. So saying that a diet worked but you were using a gram of test a week is a moot point.

Bottom line: Considering you're training and eating properly, if you are in a calorie deficet you will lose fat. It is biologically impossible for it not to happen. How much fat you lose will vary depending on genetics, but that's the case no matter what you do. Using ketosis to burn fat is short lived and unhealthy. If you don't want to believe that, there's nothing else I can say.
 
the real question should be:

if calories were equal

who would lose more fat and keep the most muscle?

A) keto guy

B) "balanced" guy

the answer is A) only if A has carb ups either after a workout, or ala- Mr. X's reefeed principle.....
 
sk* said:


Oh man, why did I even bother?

Go re-read your posts again, you always change what you say. I'm done with this bs.

-sk
Click to expand...

sk,

hey Bro, you are missing the point.

For Nelson, its not about learning or contributing, he is just creating traffic to sell his book. Look at his subject line, he wanted us to "argue".
 
twistedneck said:
I agree with Koivu_11

But I'll take it a step further and say athletic performance & mental sharpness goes way down on Keto diets (along w/ my sex drive). I can't even function on them since I've got jitz 3x / week and need glycogen or else boom.. i'm tapped.
Click to expand...
the keto diets have always been too mentally taxing for me..shortages of serotonin messes with my moods and sleep cycles..as it is I typically carb up at night while sleeping..overall though low carb is the way to go..first joined a gym in '82 and they had a diet sheet which recommended under 60 grams of carbs a day to lose weight...for over 20 years now I've basically done a CKD...generally aim to avoid high glycemic carbs and carb up when the cravings kick in...41 now and about ~10% body fat,and I was a fat kid growing up..so I put on fat easy(my dad's fat)...lost about 60lbs when I was 19(fasting 2-3 days at a time)and then joined the gym and learned how to eat appropriately
 
"Keto will burn more fat -- for a short while -- then it becomes stressing to the metabolism and very catabolic."

That's why we do CKD here, ever visit the diet board?

" Of course, high dosages of steroids will counteract this to a degree. But steroids always help. It doesn't really matter what diet you use. So saying that a diet worked but you were using a gram of test a week is a moot point. "

I didn't even once mention steroids.

"Bottom line: Considering you're training and eating properly, if you are in a calorie deficet you will lose fat. It is biologically impossible for it not to happen. How much fat you lose will vary depending on genetics, but that's the case no matter what you do. Using ketosis to burn fat is short lived and unhealthy. If you don't want to believe that, there's nothing else I can say. "

My point is, macronutrient breakdown matters more than just lowering calories. What part of this don't you get? If you wanna just lower calories, then get back to my example before. Go 500calories below your maintanence and only eat carbs, get back to me on how lowering calories worked.

Low carbs end up lowering insulin resistence. There are just too many reasons why they work better. Oh and I have personal experience with this (well, for my sister), backed by blood work. Will you deny this?

I don't think that you understand that not everyone was born a girl with a 6pack. Go spread your balanced diet crap to skinnies like you, who believe their natural genetical limit is 160lbs.

-sk
 
Nelson Montana said:
Okay, for the last time.

Bottom line: ....Using ketosis to burn fat is short lived and unhealthy. If you don't want to believe that, there's nothing else I can say.
Click to expand...

Bottom line: I cannot prove this point, if you choose not to accept it there's nothing else I can say.
 
thx9000 said:


Bottom line: I cannot prove this point, if you choose not to accept it there's nothing else I can say.
Click to expand...

I missed that part of the post. This is pathetic, how is it bad Nelson? Did the diet fairy tell you this?

This is getting riddiculous, you can't prove it cause you dug it up out of your ass.

-sk
 
sk* said:


I missed that part of the post. This is pathetic, how is it bad Nelson? Did the diet fairy tell you this?

This is getting riddiculous, you can't prove it cause you dug it up out of your ass.

-sk
Click to expand...


Okay. You're probably right. Never mind.
 
You aren't gonna last much longer on this board. It won't even take three months.

Remember my words when you get banned. I used to think you had everything together, but now you are pissing off pretty much every mod out there. Three months nelson, remember that.

-sk
 
sk* said:
You aren't gonna last much longer on this board. It won't even take three months.

Remember my words when you get banned. I used to think you had everything together, but now you are pissing off pretty much every mod out there. Three months nelson, remember that.

-sk
Click to expand...



Okay. You're probably right.
 
jh1 said:


No offense, DrJMW, I respect you knowledge -

But how can a balanced calorie defict diet fail an endomorph or anyone trying to loose weight?

I mean seriously - I can't beleive that if you are truely staying calorie defict that you aren't loosing weight. I always look and listen to those people and laugh. I have always thought they weren't sticking to their diet and they were lying to themselves.

Your body can't produce more body weight out of thin air... I think they are failing thier diet, the diet isn't failing them.

YOU MISSED MY FIRST POST TO THIS. THE ENDOMORPH, WHILE ON A BALANCED CALORIE RESTRICTED DIET, WILL USE MUSLCE AS THE PRIMARY ENERGY SOURCE AND SPARE FAT. THIS IS ONE OF THE GENETIC PROBLEMS WITH ENDOMORPHS. THIS IS WHY STRENGTH TRAINING FOR THEM IS BETTER THAN AEROBICS

I AM AN ENDOMORPH. SEVERAL YEARS AGO, I WENT ON A CALORIE-RESTRICTED, BALANCED DIET WITH WEIGHT TRAINING AND CARDIO. I WAS 220# AND 20% BF. WHEN I FINISHED, I WAS 160# AND 15% BF. SEVERAL YEARS LATER, I WEIGHED IN AT 300# AND 30% BF. I WENT ON CARB-RESTRICTED DIET AND REDUCED TO 200# AND 15% BF--SAME WORKOUT. I SEE THIS ALL THE TIME..PEOPLE LOSE WEIGHT BUT THEIR COMPOSITION (BF%) HARDLY CHANGES.


JH1
Click to expand...
 
DrJMW said:
Click to expand...


DRJMW: It seems like maybe you ate cleaner (and less) trained better (cut back on cardo) and lost more weight and more fat. That's actually kind of in agreement with the original point, which is, without a calorie deficet, you won't lose fat. I agree that everone needs to tweak it a bit to suit their individual metabolism, and of course, lower carbs are the way to go. I guess my original intention was to show that mearly taxing the body by putting it in ketosis is not the answer.

Incidentally, I LOVE it when someone disagrees with me, starts an argument, gets pissed as shit, and based on that, they think I'm going to get banned. It's so obviously ego out of control. Ya gotta laugh.
 
Nelson Montana said:

Incidentally, I LOVE it when someone disagrees with me, starts an argument, gets pissed as shit, and based on that, they think I'm going to get banned. It's so obviously ego out of control. Ya gotta laugh.
Click to expand...

Now THAT's "The Truth".

Thats fine Nelson, at least be man enough to not WHINE then when people CALL you on it, or when they respond in kind.

YOU want the drama, you CRAVE the controversy, you NEED to have that high-post-count-thread with your name on it on Page One of the board.
 
Riker29 said:


Now THAT's "The Truth".

Thats fine Nelson, at least be man enough to not WHINE then when people CALL you on it, or when they respond in kind.

YOU want the drama, you CRAVE the controversy, you NEED to have that high-post-count-thread with your name on it on Page One of the board.
Click to expand...



Would you mind showing me the link where I whined?
 
sk* said:
"Keto will burn more fat -- for a short while -- then it becomes stressing to the metabolism and very catabolic."

That's why we do CKD here, ever visit the diet board?

" Of course, high dosages of steroids will counteract this to a degree. But steroids always help. It doesn't really matter what diet you use. So saying that a diet worked but you were using a gram of test a week is a moot point. "

I didn't even once mention steroids.

"Bottom line: Considering you're training and eating properly, if you are in a calorie deficet you will lose fat. It is biologically impossible for it not to happen. How much fat you lose will vary depending on genetics, but that's the case no matter what you do. Using ketosis to burn fat is short lived and unhealthy. If you don't want to believe that, there's nothing else I can say. "

My point is, macronutrient breakdown matters more than just lowering calories. What part of this don't you get? If you wanna just lower calories, then get back to my example before. Go 500calories below your maintanence and only eat carbs, get back to me on how lowering calories worked.

Low carbs end up lowering insulin resistence. There are just too many reasons why they work better. Oh and I have personal experience with this (well, for my sister), backed by blood work. Will you deny this?

I don't think that you understand that not everyone was born a girl with a 6pack. Go spread your balanced diet crap to skinnies like you, who believe their natural genetical limit is 160lbs.

-sk
Click to expand...
 
Nelson Montana said:
Two subjects with equal genetics.
Click to expand...

This statement cannot be true. No two individuals have the "same" genetics.

C-ditty
 
sk* said:


Originally posted by sk*
"Bottom line: Considering you're training and eating properly, if you are in a calorie deficet you will lose fat. It is biologically impossible for it not to happen. How much fat you lose will vary depending on genetics, but that's the case no matter what you do. Using ketosis to burn fat is short lived and unhealthy. If you don't want to believe that, there's nothing else I can say. "

My point is, macronutrient breakdown matters more than just lowering calories. What part of this don't you get? If you wanna just lower calories, then get back to my example before. Go 500calories below your maintanence and only eat carbs, get back to me on how lowering calories worked.

Low carbs end up lowering insulin resistence. There are just too many reasons why they work better. Oh and I have personal experience with this (well, for my sister), backed by blood work. Will you deny this?

I don't think that you understand that not everyone was born a girl with a 6pack. Go spread your balanced diet crap to skinnies like you, who believe their natural genetical limit is 160lbs.

-sk
Click to expand...

Excellent point on the macronutrient breakdown sk*... many people don't pay attention to the ratio.

C-ditty
 
I just realized how stupid and pointless this argument is.

"Balanced diet"? What exactly is a balanced diet? 33/33/33 PCF?
I want to see someone eat a "balanced" diet like that, with all of their carbs coming from table sugar.
 
sk: That's whinning? It sounds more like YOU'RE whinning.

Citrue: It was a hypothetical scenario in order to make an evaluation. Maybe you missed that part.


A balanced diet mean a high protein, moderate complex carb, moderate good fat combnation of wholesome foods. Geez man, is this stuff that hard to comprehend?
 
there's one thing not to forget. You can control insulin even if you're not in a keto diet! You can still eat carbs at the right momment, control your insulin levels and still loose fat, have better mental focus and more energy to go.
 
This is funny because you are all in a way "right". Nobody is wrong here, so why all the arguing? lol

The fact is, BOTH diets work, but they both serve different purposes depending on ones goals and genetics.

DrJMW and crew and Nelson and crew are all right.

The fact is, one shouldn't just stick to "one" particular diet, but use a combination of BOTH diets! However, depending on one's body composition, genetics, and goals, that will influence how much and often of each diet to use and when. Nonetheless, it is best to use BOTH diets!

An endo will probably benefit from using keto diet more frequently, and a "balanced" diet less. Regardless, he/she will still use BOTH diets!

The opposite is true for an ecto.

Pertaining to the original question, at the end of the MONTH (very short-term here) I think the keto diet will result in more fat loss. A competetive bb like Quad needs to look good for ONE day, and that's why he uses the keto. For a long-term diet, I think the "balanced" approach is more favourable as I don't think ketones are healthy for one to stay on for a long period of time. Nonetheless, it is best to use BOTH diets, but mix them up as you go!

Using BOTH diets is probably the best, and as your goals and body changes, so does your diet. So you are all right!
 
Nelson Montana said:


Citrue: It was a hypothetical scenario in order to make an evaluation. Maybe you missed that part.
Click to expand...

Nah, I think what he missed was that it was simply you trying to get your name bumped up to sell your book. So you purposely tried to get everyone to "argue" about something.

At least be THAT honest Nelson.
 
Riker29 said:


Nah, I think what he missed was that it was simply you trying to get your name bumped up to sell your book. So you purposely tried to get everyone to "argue" about something.

At least be THAT honest Nelson.
Click to expand...


That first sentence doesn't even make sense.

Now I think it's time for YOU to be honest and admit you're just bitching.
 
Nelson Montana said:



That first sentence doesn't even make sense.

Now I think it's time for YOU to be honest and admit you're just bitching.
Click to expand...


Lolz. Why do certain individuals keep having a go at Nelson, its really matter of opinion, so why flame the guy. I think hes a good guy and most of time he is rite!!
 
Nelson Montana said:

That first sentence doesn't even make sense.

Now I think it's time for YOU to be honest and admit you're just bitching.
Click to expand...

No, sorry Nelson.

Once again, you start a thread trying to create an argument. Look at the Subject line Nelson.

You are more of a drama queen than Jessica Simpson.

Then when people do respond "in kind" you try to turn everything around somehow and respond as if you are being picked on or singled out, or somehow are higher-than-mighty. Or that WE are being unreasonable or bitching.

Look the subject that YOU wrote Nelson, You wanted to argue. Well, what you REALY wanted was traffic. Traffic with YOUR name on the thread.

Sometime soon I am sure the Powers That Be at EF will realize that even though they make a few bucks on your book, that the problems you create, and the drain on resources that it causes (like people such as EF Sam and the Mods having to respond to complaints about you) create a Net Negative effect, and you will then, be gone.

So go ahead Nelson - claim now that WE are being unreasonable - claim that YOU are just trying to help. Give us all a laugh as we see through your Copyrighter tactics, when in fact all you want is Traffic, Drama, and book sales.
 
Nelson Montana said:
sk: That's whinning? It sounds more like YOU'RE whinning.

Citrue: It was a hypothetical scenario in order to make an evaluation. Maybe you missed that part.


A balanced diet mean a high protein, moderate complex carb, moderate good fat combnation of wholesome foods. Geez man, is this stuff that hard to comprehend?
Click to expand...

Whining, what the hell are you talking about?

Are you gonna sit there with your 180lbs of pure muscle mass with 20lbs above your genetical limit and say that your defenition of a balanced diet will burn more fat than a keto type diet (specially for endos)?

Please, this is horseshit. I've done the balanced diet before I knew what a diet was. Like I said before, maybe you should spent time with some endomorphs and you will realize how great a CKD is.

-sk
 
sk* said:


Whining, what the hell are you talking about?

Are you gonna sit there with your 180lbs of pure muscle mass with 20lbs above your genetical limit and say that your defenition of a balanced diet will burn more fat than a keto type diet (specially for endos)?

Please, this is horseshit. I've done the balanced diet before I knew what a diet was. Like I said before, maybe you should spent time with some endomorphs and you will realize how great a CKD is.

-sk
Click to expand...




Geez, get the stck out of you ass, man. It's a dicussion about fucking diets, I didn't curse out you mother. Whay the ate. You're the ONLY person who had a problem with this thread. Stop trolling and get a life, will ya?

You disagree? FINE.

My 190 pounds (not 180) isn't big enough for you? FINE.

(And feel free to post a pic of yourself big guy).


Posts like yours serve no purpose other than to disrupt the board. But of course, you can always blame it on me, right? You didn't even comprehend what I said-- just distorted it so you can argue -- which is exactly what I was referring to in my title. Unfuckingbelievable.
 
Nelson Montana said:





Geez, get the stck out of you ass, man. It's a dicussion about fucking diets, I didn't curse out you mother. Whay the ate. You're the ONLY person who had a problem with this thread. Stop trolling and get a life, will ya?

You disagree? FINE.

My 190 pounds (not 180) isn't big enough for you? FINE.

(And feel free to post a pic of yourself big guy).


Posts like yours serve no purpose other than to disrupt the board. But of course, you can always blame it on me, right? You didn't even comprehend what I said-- just distorted it so you can argue -- which is exactly what I was referring to in my title. Unfuckingbelievable.
Click to expand...

Post a pic? You actually calling me out?

I've met near 10 people from elite and I have many videos of myself on the training board. Go search if you care.

I don't care how much you weigh, what I do care is when you say things on the board like your genetical limit is 160lbs, or that cardio is satan's work, or that keto diets are not healthy. You can weigh 10lbs for all I care, as long as you don't spread bullshit.

It's the nature of your posts that get under my skin. Numerous people have asked you nicely since you came here to tone it down, but no you continue and continue. I've been nice and nice, but all you do is spread bullshit, and although some of your posts are nice ... a lot of them are crap, like this one.

I haven't distorted anything, that's your specialty. You actually have the nerve to say I distorted it?

You are again what? 40 years old? Grow up.

-sk
 
Nelson lives in NY I think. Maybe he'll come down for the next Sunday training day sk*. Probably won't though. :)
 
Yes, you are welcome to come if you wish Nelson. Every sunday is strongman training in Westbury, NY. I can give you exact address if you care.

-sk
 
sk* said:
Yes, you are welcome to come if you wish Nelson. Every sunday is strongman training in Westbury, NY. I can give you exact address if you care.

-sk
Click to expand...

You live near Westbury? I'm 15 minutes from there, what gym do you go to?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

W
Seeking advise & feedback on first cycle & bloodwork.
Replies
23
Views
3K
Noah Wixx
Noah Wixx
FishyAnchovy
Approved Log My Orals-Only Pre-Cycle LOG
Replies
21
Views
4K
MUSTANG_18
MUSTANG_18
Golden_Circle
Approved Log 2025 Testosterone + Masteron Cruise Phase Log
2
Replies
112
Views
11K
the_alcatraz
the_alcatraz
Richardbrown
Napsgear: How To Track Alcohol For Macros
Replies
15
Views
3K
RoySimpson
RoySimpson
Richardbrown
Napsgear: Avoid These Diet Mistakes: Part 1
Replies
15
Views
4K
SteveMobsterG
SteveMobsterG
Top Bottom