Software Engineers make $545 a month in India

[ajtomasi]

1/6th of a US worker

average income in india? $480 a YEAR!

Home many new Engineers every year in India? 200,000!

Wow

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...8&e=1&u=/nm/20031002/tc_nm/tech_india_jobs_dc

 

[Mike_Rojas]

Looks like a career change is in order for me

 

[F117A Active Stealth]

Not surprising at all. Just watch the North American economy go down like a sack of potatoes soon...

 

[canadianhitman]

Everyone's gotta band together and boycott companies that farm out jobs like that.

 

[Spanky11]

it's a global economy. get used to it, and stop bitching about it.

 

[Mandinka2]

They can pay them whatever they want. It's their country. If they want to work on the latest technology, but need a whole month's paycheck to pay for one XBOX system for their children. So be it.

BUT..

Our government is the one who's STUPID.

It's bad enough that we lose jobs to low cost labour. But we ALSO HAND OVER HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of "on-soil" labour jobs to indians through H1B's and (L1B's -- which are almost like green cards).

Fact is. American citizens are a bygone era in the field of computer technology. Basically how it works is: Billion dollar indian IT companies bid on projects in the US. They win a $500 million contract with say GM. Then they setup 500 IT works in India. THEN they send 100 IT workers to the US as "directors" to help communicate (ie: talk), and organize the development off-shore.

The companies love it. 700 workers for the price of 150 US workers. And icing on the cake -- US immigration laws ENCOURAGE it. We're the stupid idiots of our own demise.

I know this first-hand -- cuz i was hired by GE back in 98 to come in and fix a shitload of crap put together by some indian deveopers. The code was a total mess. But GE didn't care. The labour was cheap, and it allowed them to lay off shitloads of 40-50 year old IT workers (fathers with familys to support) and send them to the UI line.

-= nav =-

Dude , I feel your pain, Indian engineers might be proficient technically but their ability to organise code blows so bad..... we (the employees) are very careful about what we give them now because we always have to go back over it nad its always error ridden.... ya just can't trust them.. no offence , just the way it is. I live and work in a VERY pricey part of Germany as regards work , but companies are still moving HERE (even GE) such is the level of experience and efficiency amongst the workforce. You know what GE encourages its staff to ask themselves now , it's "Why not India?" - answer - they blow chunks in anything other than the most straightforward tasks , most of which can be programmed out of existence (evil cackles).

 

[Hengst]

it's a global economy. get used to it, and stop bitching about it.

Well said from some one in Norway. You live in a country that works to protect it's own.

Tell me, Why did Norway NOT join the EU?

 

[Spanky11]

Well said from some one in Norway. You live in a country that works to protect it's own.

Tell me, Why did Norway NOT join the EU?

Lots of reasons - I'm not Norwegian but I choose to live here for the moment, and I can see lots wrong with this country. I personally think that they should join, but it went to a vote and they decided against it. Norway is the village of Europe - in thoughts and politics. Everyone knows that, except for them.

 

[Hengst]

I agree.

I can't wait til the last remaining holdout -- the US government, finaly craves in, and starts laying off millions of US workers and replacing them with 6 dollar mexicans. Can you IMAGINE how much money the US government could save US taxpayers, if they laid off all those high paid union Postal workers, and replaced with 6 dollar mexicans, with no benefits. DAMN! (sarcasm intended).

I bet UPS could follow suit too. Who needs to pay those damn drivers $16/hr. We could go on and on.

-= nav =-

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/7065.htm

The HEALTH DEPARTMENT in NYC outsources to India. Governmental outsourcing to foriegners has already started.

 

[Hengst]

The Indiana Department of Workforce Developemnt outsources to india

Talk about treasons behavior. This is the group that is supposed to keep jobs in the state................................


"The Department of Workforce Development is supposed to help out-of-work Hoosiers find jobs.

But when the agency needed $15.2 million worth of computer upgrades to speed handling of unemployment claims, it hired a company based in India.

State officials acknowledge that hiring an overseas firm that competes with U.S. companies has raised concerns, especially given their legal responsibility to put Indiana workers first.

But they say the contract will save taxpayers millions of dollars -- and insist those savings won't come at the expense of jobs in Indiana.

"We wanted someone that would give us good value for the price," said Alan Degner, the state's work force development commissioner. "They are committed to paying U.S. market wages."

Computer programmers with Tata America International Corp., the New York subsidiary of a Bombay firm, are scheduled to begin work Oct. 28 on the four-year project.

http://www.indystar.com/print/artic...0-2810-009.html

 

[Hengst]

here's the link

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/0/078950-2810-009.html

More quotes:
Overseas firms offer high-quality work at much lower costs than U.S.-based companies, often by paying workers 75 percent less, the publication says.

Under the state contract, all work will be done at the Indiana Government Center, but Tata is free to bring in workers from India and elsewhere and pay them as it sees fit.

Company officials say they will do local recruiting, but the vast majority of workers will come from India on L-1 visas -- which do not require paying comparable U.S. wages.

 

[NoDaddyNo]

I find it amusing that coders are making fun of the way Indian programmers code or organize things.
As if they are just not bright as a people.

Much in the same way that there are morons in America and also those that are very good at what they do, there is that in India as well.

I have worked with completely incompetant Indians and I have worked with guys that are at the top in the world in terms of programming (Java specific in that particular case).

India has people over there that are trying to make the money by starting up firms of people that are less competant and taking advantage of firms over here that don't know shit and just want to outsource for cheap.
That is likely where you are seeing the issues - but the EXACT same thing was happening all over the place in the U.S. during the internet bubble.

If you went into a project that had been done by white Americans and saw that there was sloppy management there, would you immediately say "Ahh shit, them Americans are fucking disorganized and stupid!"
If so, then you are as much as a fucking moron as you would be for doing it in regards to the Indians - but at least you are consistent.

I personally don't give a shit where they move the jobs. If you lose your job you either have to step up the skill level that you have, learn new skills, or move where the skills that you refuse to update are still marketable at the salary level that you are looking for.
To feel that your government/country owes you a job is amusing. I think they did something like that over in what was called the USSR. Also, as a recall, that was a real bang up good time.

 

[WODIN]

I'm hoping to be America's first Stalin if people keep thinking that the state owes them.

 

[Mandinka2]

I find it amusing that coders are making fun of the way Indian programmers code or organize things.
As if they are just not bright as a people.

Much in the same way that there are morons in America and also those that are very good at what they do, there is that in India as well.

I have worked with completely incompetant Indians and I have worked with guys that are at the top in the world in terms of programming (Java specific in that particular case).

India has people over there that are trying to make the money by starting up firms of people that are less competant and taking advantage of firms over here that don't know shit and just want to outsource for cheap.
That is likely where you are seeing the issues - but the EXACT same thing was happening all over the place in the U.S. during the internet bubble.

If you went into a project that had been done by white Americans and saw that there was sloppy management there, would you immediately say "Ahh shit, them Americans are fucking disorganized and stupid!"
If so, then you are as much as a fucking moron as you would be for doing it in regards to the Indians - but at least you are consistent.

I personally don't give a shit where they move the jobs. If you lose your job you either have to step up the skill level that you have, learn new skills, or move where the skills that you refuse to update are still marketable at the salary level that you are looking for.
To feel that your government/country owes you a job is amusing. I think they did something like that over in what was called the USSR. Also, as a recall, that was a real bang up good time.

I'm sorry in that I didnt mean to cause offence , I work for a very large American corporation and this is not the first time that I've done so , I also worked for the Prudential before who similarly employed Indians to outsource,our help desk as well as three of our actuarial team are Indian (the latter are real nice folks) but either they lack confidence in what they do or they lack education , or they lack something else , they have yet to prove that they are capable of handling a project on their own without it disintegrating into a shambles. I also went to college in Dublin with a very bright Indian guy and he would agree with me that Indians as a whole are poor at organisation whilst they are strong in technical ability , he often remarked that they would gladly vote for monkeys if they could because at least the monkeys might be capable of moving in a consistent direction.

 

[NoDaddyNo]

Look on your computer's desktop. Look at the software on your shelf. Look at the software that created the internet. Look at the computer languages and the operating systems and the games and the device drivers.

It's all AMERICAN, made by AMERICAN software developers.

Software developers who are now working at Denny's.

Most of today's software games are "made" (programmed) overseas. Either Japan, Australia, or if not overseas, then Canada. They are manufactured elsewhere as well.

I can look on my shelf and see a bunch of software, and even an OS on my systems here. Microsoft has development teams all over the world - perhaps as a whole my OS was made in Redmond, perhaps not. They have a huge number of workers in India and in Ireland.

As for the "internet" being created by Americans - the American part of it is indeed American based. Was it all people born in America? Nope. Lots of Chinese, Russians, Japanese - and even them Indian folks.
Linux is hardly at all American - some of the distributions are now in America, but most are still not (France, Australia, Finaland, Holland, Germany, etc).

You logic is just weak.

If they are working at Denny's now, then it is their own fault. If they want jobs that paid the same as the inflated rates during the internet bubble, then they need to move into an industry that is still sustaining those rates - biotech seems to be one of them.
Problem is, now those industries are only hiring the best and the brightest.
So basically people have the option of becoming one of the best and the brightest, they have the option of picking a new industry, or they have the option of moving.

I really don't see what the big problem is here. America is a collection of people, and as a whole there is nothing that says any one of us is guarenteed anything - one has to work for it.
If you at one time had something, it doesn't mean it is guarenteed to you.

I have worked at a software consulting company, a telecom software, a pharmaceutical company, and now in banking.
I have seen a wide variety of people at different skill levels - and every single one that I have seen bitching about it are the onest hat went out and learned some JavaScript and how to use DreamWeaver and then considered themselves experts and demanded lots of money.
Then when the companies that hired them could no lonnger afford that rate - they let them go.
Now those people are bitching about it all.

People you don't see bitching about it are the ones that can program in C, C++, Java and are highly skilled. If you have a masters or a PhD in comp sci, biology, chemistry, or math - I guarentee that I could find you 10 jobs in about 5 minutes and you would be paid well.
If you want the pay level, then get the skills.

When the economy sucks, that is the best time to go back to school. Be insulated from the economy by the shelter of a university and then come out smarter and more marketable.
Just be sure you don't chase something that is profitable now, but won't be after the years in school.

Basically, things only happen if you make them happen. Bitching and whining about it does nothing other than annoy the people around you that are busy doing something about it.

 

[NoDaddyNo]

Which part of the US is Japan in? Last I checked, and mind you I'm truly awful at geography, Japan was "overseas".

Also, if MS does some percent of its work in the U.S., that means that unless that percent is 100%, that not ALL of the stuff is made in the States.

Your generalzations and poor examples don't help your argument, you just come off as ranting incoherant stuff only supported by your pool of friends that work in a few companies.

The fact that your friend works at Blizzard doesn't override the fact that Square Soft is in Japan. It doesn't override the fact that there are three game companies in Vancuver. It doesn't negate the fact that there are a ton of them in New Zealand, Australia, Ireland - all over the fucking place.

America is too expensive to keep workers there. If you want America to do something for the workers, they need to lower taxes and insurance costs on the companies - they also need to change their legal systems.
Otherwise, every industry is going to flee as it is seeing the direct effect of this.
This has been happening in banking for many years. This has been happening in insurance for well over 10 years. This has been happening in large scale manufacturing for nearly 20 years.

If you think software is somehow immune to it, then you are mistaken.

You are too narrow minded/sighted to even notice the blinders.

 

[Ffactor]

I'm sorry in that I didnt mean to cause offence , I work for a very large American corporation and this is not the first time that I've done so , I also worked for the Prudential before who similarly employed Indians to outsource,our help desk as well as three of our actuarial team are Indian (the latter are real nice folks) but either they lack confidence in what they do or they lack education , or they lack something else , they have yet to prove that they are capable of handling a project on their own without it disintegrating into a shambles. I also went to college in Dublin with a very bright Indian guy and he would agree with me that Indians as a whole are poor at organisation whilst they are strong in technical ability , he often remarked that they would gladly vote for monkeys if they could because at least the monkeys might be capable of moving in a consistent direction.

Are you sure the "monkey" remark wa not directed towards Irish people. Indians are sneaky that way. Be careful. Also, it's kinda weired to see an Irish person make fun of India on grounds of tehnology!

 

[NoDaddyNo]

Off topic? The top was how much workers in India make. Which is relative to companies leaving and going there.

The only way that is relevant to people here getting replaced is that America prides itself on being the land of opportunity and allows people to move here - if they are previously accustomed to low wages and are therefore pleased to see higher wages here than they saw back home - bully for them.

When you went into a bank and had an American teller, you were interfacing to the one of the lowest parts of the company - the public access interface. The way that translates to IT would be perhaps who is writing the web pages. A teller is not making an outrageous salary - they are making low wages. Were there not a ready supply of cheap labor to fill those positions, then they would indeed be filled by people form other countries.

And AAA insurance is for cars, which is a fractional part of the insurance world. I was referring to insurance in its entirity - but if it matters, then in fact do outsource much of their work to wherever it is cheaper. Any place that has a call center will do that - frequently it is in Canada to avoid the hassles of accents and cultural divides.

I find it amusing that you are so against allow new people into America when I'm almost entirely sure that you have talked about the fact that you were not born in America.

If you think other countries are doing it better, then I encourage you to move.
I've moved out of the U.S. and I'm quite enjoying it.

You're throwing the issue off-topic. We're talking about cheap outsourced labour on US soil. What people want to do or pay on their soil is not our concern. Nor do i care.

>This has been happening in banking for many years. This has >been happening in insurance for well over 10 years. This has >been happening in large scale manufacturing for nearly 20 years

Oh really? last time i went to Bank of America, the teller was an American. Not an imported Nairobi working for 60 cents an hour. Same thing when i called AAA to buy insurance. They didn't forward me to a call center in Texas, packed full of hondurans.

If you wanted to bring 10,000 Mexicans to Sweden, and tell the government you can put them in Swedish restaurants and replace all the workers, and make 'em work for 50 cents an hour -- the swedish government will tel you to fuck off. Their country is for swedes. Not for mexicans.

The Indians come here, because the rest of the world has STRICT work visa laws, and basically tells them to buzz off.

We should be doing the same.

-= nav =-

 

[the nature boy]

you can buy an awesome sitar with that money. chick dig dudes who can play the sitar.

 

[Ffactor]

i hat Indians!

 

[NoDaddyNo]

I think you are right. We should just build a large wall that seperates our borders from everyone else and not let anyone in at all.
That way, if people want to move here, they have to invade and kill us off the way we did it when we first moved in.

Good point there supernav.

So where were you born and how did you move to the States?
I'm unfortunately very familiar with the immigration laws in the States due to my fiancee not being American and having moved out of the country myself.

Again, if you have issues with the situation in the country, the beauty of it all is that you are free to do as you like. You can bitch and moan, or you could even do something about it and move.

 

[NoDaddyNo]

I didn't realize you were American Indian - cool. Which tribe? (I apologize if that is the incorrect term)
I suppose there is more reason to hate outsiders if you never immigrated to North America in the first place.
It wouldn't make sense for me to hate outsiders since my family mostly immigrated to the US themselves from Norway, Romania, and Scotland (one of my grandmothers and her family were Cherokee, so they don't count I guess). I'm just a mutt American though, born and bred.

As for the rest of the world, there are many places with fewer freedoms than the States - America prides itself on its freedoms that other countries don't allow.
To point at a country with fewer freedoms and say that we should behave that way is likely not going to fly over well in the US.

Also, you referenced before that people were coming in on a immigration loophole. Remember, that is an actual law, so they are coming in legally. The issue is that the law should change, not that they are in some way the bad ones.

In the end, I'm not much of a fan of government intervention in anything, so that is where my beliefs are.

I'm gonna have some lunch.

>So where were you born and how did you move to the States?

Canadian Born American Indian. So i claim both countries as citizenship & residency.

>We should just build a large wall that seperates our borders >from everyone else and not let anyone in at all.

That's how most of the rest of the world works. Think a mexican can legally immigrate to Saudi Arabia with 5 bucks in his pocket???

America first. If this country is to prosper, we need to immigrate the wisest, the intelligent, the gifted, the artistic visionaries, the poets, the valid refugees escaping war, the spouses and parents. Anyone else can wait in line til this country is in *need* of them. That's the basis of how the INA was created. Before everyone on the planet started violating it and making a mockery of our immigration laws. To the tune of about 7+ million or so.

-= nav =-

 

[Mandinka2]

Are you sure the "monkey" remark wa not directed towards Irish people. Indians are sneaky that way. Be careful. Also, it's kinda weired to see an Irish person make fun of India on grounds of tehnology!

What the hells that mean? He came to Ireland to study cos of our facilities and PAID through the NOSTRILS to do it. He was actually hangin outta my shirt tails in college actually.
Ok ,3 examples of Indian governance:

Eunuchs: a sect of more than 1m. people who go around abducting pubescent boys and subjecting them to the most outrageous torture - totally tolerated in India

Indian parliament: Regular fights in the house of parliament itself , Jesse Ventura and Arnie would do well there. Ridiculously volatile governments because of stupid voting system , and oh yeah , its a DEMOCRACY.

The caste system----- do I have to say more?

Compare that to Ireland and weep , we are the Celtic tiger pal , lots of that wealth was squandered I agree but we beat the living bejesus out of India and there are plenty of immigrant Indians all over Europe to back up that fact.

 

[Ffactor]

What the hells that mean? He came to Ireland to study cos of our facilities and PAID through the NOSTRILS to do it. He was actually hangin outta my shirt tails in college actually.
Ok ,3 examples of Indian governance:

Eunuchs: a sect of more than 1m. people who go around abducting pubescent boys and subjecting them to the most outrageous torture - totally tolerated in India

Indian parliament: Regular fights in the house of parliament itself , Jesse Ventura and Arnie would do well there. Ridiculously volatile governments because of stupid voting system , and oh yeah , its a DEMOCRACY.

The caste system----- do I have to say more?

Compare that to Ireland and weep , we are the Celtic tiger pal , lots of that wealth was squandered I agree but we beat the living bejesus out of India and there are plenty of immigrant Indians all over Europe to back up that fact.

Definitely in terms of per capita income, but certainly not in terms of technology or are you arguing Ireland is more technologically advanced then India. The kid probably came to Ireland because he could not get into an Indian school. Politics and social structure suck ass over there and there are tons of really ugly ass people living in the villages who should be neutered in my opinion.

 

[ajtomasi]

I'm sorry NoDaddyNo, but a goverment is build to protect it's people, including job security.

 

[NoDaddyNo]

I'm sorry NoDaddyNo, but a goverment is build to protect it's people, including job security.

Right - which part of the consititution is that in?

The government is there to protect the weak from themselves. That is why it was enstated. It is also to protect the wealthy from the poor, and the poor from the wealthy.
It is to protect the nation in terms of military, and after the depression they put in place things so that it protects us from our own stupidity in investments.
The government is also an in progress study in human nature. If spending your own money, you have some level of responsibility for that money. When spending someone else's money, you have increasingly less resonsibility that you feel towards what you do with that money as the amount grows and the distance increases in its connection to your own money.
As a result, government, as a factor of human nature, will always do things to grow itself larger, at the cost of the taxpayer.

But that is another rant for another time - I'm mainly curious where it says that the government is responsible for my job security?
Say I get out of college and decide that hot damn, it is hard to find a job - what does the government do about getting me a job?
I understand that there is action in place in terms of unemployment insurance and the like (which is incidentally an action by the government that is making it too costly for many businesses to be in the States as unemployment rises).
But where is that job security department? What wing of the government does that fall under?
Is there a monetary level that they can guarentee? I know that they can regulate the minimum wage that I can get if I have a job - but I'm still not seeing the secuirty factor there.

 

[Mandinka2]

Definitely in terms of per capita income, but certainly not in terms of technology or are you arguing Ireland is more technologically advanced then India.

Yes , Im arguing that Ireland is more techologically advanced than India , certainly I am.... no question about it... largest Intel factory in the world producing a shit load of chips , development of Viagra by two lads from Cork , list goes on (and back in history) and on.... step up to the plate here...

 

[Ffactor]

Well Intel is an American company so t's not like Ireland discovered the chip. Dude, I'm not dumping on the Irish. You guys discovered Guiness, props to you my friend.

 

[Mandinka2]

Well Intel is an American company so t's not like Ireland discovered the chip. Dude, I'm not dumping on the Irish. You guys discovered Guiness, props to you my friend.

Thanks Bro , I just know and work with a lot of Indians , I've got nothin against them as a people, I cannot argue with their mathemathical skills but sometimes they do things a bit muddled , hey listen its not like the Irish are as organised as the Germans either so its no big insult. Take care friend

 

[rushx79]

we need pat bucchanan now!

 

[milo hobgoblin]

WTF??

This has to be the most stupid thing Ive read all day

If they are working at Denny's now, then it is their own fault. If they want jobs that paid the same as the inflated rates during the internet bubble, then they need to move into an industry that is still sustaining those rates - biotech seems to be one of them.

So... what you're saying is they should just go back to college get a Bachelors or Masters degree in a completely different field and get a job in Biotech so we can sell out to India???

And what are they supposed to do about their morgtage payments, car paymetns, feeding their kids and wives while they are getting reeducated??? Go on fucking welfare?

Our government is fucking us and you apathetic attitude about your countrymen is only making it worse.

We do need to shut down the borders and start offering huge tax incentives to companies to keep jobs here.

You know what amazes me is how easy it is for you to sit here and make asinine statements like that. Because sooner or later its go9ing to happen to you... but I guess you'll just go back to school?? get another degree... because they just hand them out you know.

BTW Bioteck pays SHIT money... I spent 5 years studying Molecular Bio before I went into IT.. because now even biotech is starting to hire foreign labor.

So your suggestion is bullshit.


Hey I know we should ALL become stockbrokers and lawyers.. or maybe doctors... we can just "go back to school"

 

[ajtomasi]

Right - which part of the consititution is that in?

The government is there to protect my small bumpy penis

Have you forgotten about "The New Deal" after the depression? Made specifically to give Americans jobs. All you're doing is trying to build an argument. You know very well that employment is crucial to a society's welfare. So just admit it.

 

[Code]

In the Philipines, my brother-in-law just hired a doctor. Full-time, on-site dedicated to his employees (I'll elborate) for 350 a month.

They have a unique approach to health care. If you employe 75 people, you have to retain a nurse. Over 200 and you have to have an on-site doctor.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I'm hoping to be America's first Stalin if people keep thinking that the state owes them.

Line forms here fucko.

 

[atlantabiolab]

Have you forgotten about "The New Deal" after the depression? Made specifically to give Americans jobs. All you're doing is trying to build an argument. You know very well that employment is crucial to a society's welfare. So just admit it.

The New Deal is not Constitutional. Find any provision in the government, and don't try the "general welfare" clause, since I can debunk that with my eyes closed, that provides government the power to provide for the "social welfare".

FDR established the New Deal because he could care less about the constitution and favored a more socialistic ideal.

Employment is not an enumerated function of the government, that is the role of the individuals who comprise a free society, no matter what socialists might believe.

 

[ajtomasi]

I was using The New Deal as an example of government helping people with employment. Of course there isn't a specific portion of the constitution dedicated to employment.

I just don't see how someone could separate healthy employment with the safety and well being of our people. Obviously you've never taken a look at other countries.

 

[NoDaddyNo]

Re: WTF??

I'm proud to have written the most stupid thing you've read all day. I assure you that you have never written a thing that I have considered stupid. You always seem well rounded and open minded to me.

Biotech pays shit? What exactly were you doing for them? Cleaning floors?
I just moved from Boston - the three biggest biotech sectors in the States and likely the world are Boston (Cambridge really), San Fransisco, and Princeton. My father worked in biotech, and I worked in a building surrounded by biotech companies (as well as @stake, Akamai, and EMC).
Some of the most expensive real estate in the country there, and some of the highest salaries that you will find.

Biotech pays quite well, but you have to be in the right part of it.

As for your mortgage, I would raise the point that one might look to the future when getting into a mortgage - if your income disappears and you can then no longer afford your mortgage, perhaps that mortgage isn't for you.
The fact that the US public stretches their debt futher than is prudent is does not make it a proper method of living.

And yes, it will have an effect on me - it already has. I worked at a company that laid off all of the American workers and brought in Russians and moved a lot of it over to India.
I was bothered that the company hid it from us, and I was bothered by how poorly the company was run - I was not at all bothered that they finally did something smart and lowered their programming costs.

What did I do? I went out and got another job - my skillset is strong and I have a strong education.
If you want to weather economic storms - increase your level of education and you will be able to leverage your way into positions someone with less will not be able to reach.

If you aren't interesting in more schooling, then that is fine - just switch your career path to something else that has the salary level that you desire.
If you can find it, then you are set.
If not, then find out what they desire to fill that position and modify your knowledge base so as to include what they want... but don't call it education or schooling.

America is the land of freedom and choice - you always have the choice to bitch and moan as you are now, and you always have the choice to leave.

This has to be the most stupid thing Ive read all day





So... what you're saying is they should just go back to college get a Bachelors or Masters degree in a completely different field and get a job in Biotech so we can sell out to India???

And what are they supposed to do about their morgtage payments, car paymetns, feeding their kids and wives while they are getting reeducated??? Go on fucking welfare?

Our government is fucking us and you apathetic attitude about your countrymen is only making it worse.

We do need to shut down the borders and start offering huge tax incentives to companies to keep jobs here.

You know what amazes me is how easy it is for you to sit here and make asinine statements like that. Because sooner or later its go9ing to happen to you... but I guess you'll just go back to school?? get another degree... because they just hand them out you know.

BTW Bioteck pays SHIT money... I spent 5 years studying Molecular Bio before I went into IT.. because now even biotech is starting to hire foreign labor.

So your suggestion is bullshit.


Hey I know we should ALL become stockbrokers and lawyers.. or maybe doctors... we can just "go back to school"

 

[Code]

RE RE RE RE RE: WTF??

Holy shit, you went from Biotech, rated by Forbes as the highest paying industry with the best benefits to IT??

Unless it was a switch to the IT dept at a biotech firm, you've gotta be the dimmest bulb on the strip.

This has to be the most stupid thing Ive read all day





So... what you're saying is they should just go back to college get a Bachelors or Masters degree in a completely different field and get a job in Biotech so we can sell out to India???

And what are they supposed to do about their morgtage payments, car paymetns, feeding their kids and wives while they are getting reeducated??? Go on fucking welfare?

Our government is fucking us and you apathetic attitude about your countrymen is only making it worse.

We do need to shut down the borders and start offering huge tax incentives to companies to keep jobs here.

You know what amazes me is how easy it is for you to sit here and make asinine statements like that. Because sooner or later its go9ing to happen to you... but I guess you'll just go back to school?? get another degree... because they just hand them out you know.

BTW Bioteck pays SHIT money... I spent 5 years studying Molecular Bio before I went into IT.. because now even biotech is starting to hire foreign labor.

So your suggestion is bullshit.


Hey I know we should ALL become stockbrokers and lawyers.. or maybe doctors... we can just "go back to school"

 

[NoDaddyNo]

I guess you probalby skipped over the part where I said I was laid off because they brought in Russians that were cheaper and outsourced much of the work to India.
On a side note, I got a job a week later.
That was July of 2002.
I also noted that I wasn't pissed that I got laid off for the money - I was more pissed at how poorly they had run the company prior to that so that they needed to resort to that - they had many clear warnings and ignored them all.

I've worked at a computer consulting firm - I wanted more money, so I quit and went to a telecom company. I got laid off there and a week later started with a pharmaceutical company.
I then moved out of the country and I head the IT in a small hedge fund management office. I have started up a company on the side and in a few months will be running another company.

None of that came about because I was sitting around bitching about what the government owed me or how people moving into this country are scerwing me over. It happened because I went out and got it - I made it for myself.

I've only ever had one interview where I wasn't hired right away, and that was because I hadn't eaten all day and snuck out of a meeting to go to it, and I forgot to bring my resume. They gave me a test to do (solve a problem that one of their engineers had done in a week, but do it in an hour, in Perl) - I passed the test, one of the owners wanted to hire me, the other didn't - fair enough.
I am well educated and can think fast on my feet. I have good experience, I can learn fast, etc etc.

Basically, find your weakness and either embrace it and be fine with it, or fucking fix it and quit whining. Not you per so, but "you" as in everyone.

>my skillset is strong and I have a strong education

Dude that means NOTHING these days. Companies lay off SMART and INTELLIGENT people, to go for the CHEAPER labour -- even if the quality isn't up to par. Hey, it's *cheaper*.

Getting an *interview* in IT is a challenge. What can you say on your resume? "Hi, I'm a REALLY REALLY SMART AND EDUCATED PERSON". Everyone and their mother's resume has them looking like the next best thing since sliced bread. According to resume's, everyone, including the fake Indian's resumes -- are rocket scientists.

 

[NoDaddyNo]

I hate unions and don't agree with them.

As for warnings, I didn't give them any - they were warnings in the sense of "no clients" and such.

And I didn't get into the managerial role for lay off avoidance - I got into it because I don't like having people tell me what to do.

As for the weakness of "highly skilled" - it depends which perspective you look at it from. The weakness of the people paying them would be their high salaries. The weakness of the IT person is that their skillset is not diverse enough to allow them to do something else if a problem comes along.

>Basically, find your weakness and either embrace it and be fine
>with it, or fucking fix it and quit whining. Not you per so,


And what exactly is the *weakness* of highly skilled, professional American IT workers, may i ask? The fact that they don't work for mcdonald's wages?

Even you yourself go smart and go into the managerial role. I guess even you got tired of getting outsourced by the next cheapest guy every 6 months.

>that they needed to resort to that

They resorted to that, cuz their government gave them that option. It wasn't because of your "warnings".

There are thousands of highly trained mechanics in mexico. But the union leaders are already looking at the US govt' and going "Don't you even think about it!"

-= nav =-

 

[Code]

If you were smart, and networked yourself (not the geek way, socially) and know how to sell yourself, getting another job is no problem.

I left my last job, laid off. And within 3 weeks of looking, found another job.

Most people spent so much time job surfing during the early 90's that they never figured out that a career is long term. Well, now that the market is dry, they found out the hard way.

H1b and L1 workers get their jobs not because the government *gave* them the option. In fact, hiring H1b workers is no longer allowed. There's a L1 lopphole that people use, but congress is working to block that.

>Basically, find your weakness and either embrace it and be fine
>with it, or fucking fix it and quit whining. Not you per so,


And what exactly is the *weakness* of highly skilled, professional American IT workers, may i ask? The fact that they don't work for mcdonald's wages?

Even you yourself go smart and go into the managerial role. I guess even you got tired of getting outsourced by the next cheapest guy every 6 months.

>that they needed to resort to that

They resorted to that, cuz their government gave them that option. It wasn't because of your "warnings".

There are thousands of highly trained mechanics in mexico. But the union leaders are already looking at the US govt' and going "Don't you even think about it!"

-= nav =-

 

[Hengst]

Nodaddyno - what I don't understand is why you continue to defend the imported, often illegal immigration over the well being, success and happines of your fellow countrymen. The long term health and success of our country depends on supporting our own.

But of course you are also the product of the multicultural propaganda machine, believe the lies spouted to you as gospel and are happily ignorant of the fundamental danger the contiuned policies of the US government pose to the future of the US.

 

[ZKaudio]

btw, w/o illegals...the us economy would suffer. I'm not going to explain myself but you can all go research on your own if you don't agree with me. I am correct.

 

[Hengst]

btw, w/o illegals...the us economy would suffer. I'm not going to explain myself but you can all go research on your own if you don't agree with me. I am correct.

BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT

I have done my own research and you are WRONG.

 

[anabolicmd]

btw, w/o illegals...the us economy would suffer. I'm not going to explain myself but you can all go research on your own if you don't agree with me. I am correct.

Thats a myth. What kind of shitty country are we if we depend on illegals? Think about it man, just once.

 

[NoDaddyNo]

Where did I say anything about illegals? I've been talking about people coming in on visas, either H1B or the L1. Both of which are legal, whether you agree with the fact that they should exist or not does not negate the fact that they are part of the law.

If you are referring to Mexicans crossing the border to coming in and work in the fields picking berries - I don't have much of a problem with them either. I like eating fresh produce, fresh produce needs to be harvested, and the farmers can make more money by paying less to have it harvested.

And I'm far from brainwashed by the US government. I dislike government involvement of any kind. I hate unions. I think organized support likely has good intentions at the start, but human nature takes over and it becomes a machine that's sole reason to live is to grow itself. For the government to grow, they need to increase taxation, and I'm very much against taxation - hence why I live where I do.
See, I have an issue and I do something about it - instead of bitching and moaning, I just go and do it. I took advantage of my liberties available to me as an American and acted on them. I didn't sit around whining that I was due this and that.

The only reasons there needs to be a government are to run our military, to provide public roads (it would suck if corporations owned roads and then could determine how you could access regions of your own country based on how you pay), emergency services, etc - things such as that.
They are a form of protection that groups need, but they can easily spin out of control in growth and taxation.

Nodaddyno - what I don't understand is why you continue to defend the imported, often illegal immigration over the well being, success and happines of your fellow countrymen. The long term health and success of our country depends on supporting our own.

But of course you are also the product of the multicultural propaganda machine, believe the lies spouted to you as gospel and are happily ignorant of the fundamental danger the contiuned policies of the US government pose to the future of the US.

 

[Ashamed]

Forsooth, nodaddyno pissed all over the thread and then shat upon it with bullshitey.

 

[ajtomasi]

I think one of the sadest parts is that these people working this cheap labor will never even purchase the services or products they produce.

 

[ZKaudio]

ok, i guess cheap mexican labor is of no use to business owners. my bad.

 

[Hengst]

ok, i guess cheap mexican labor is of no use to business owners. my bad.

In the short term, yes. however, in the long run. no. because as ajtomasi so eloquently pointed out, they never buy the products and services themself. Thus the money never reenters the economy. This is one of the reasons that Bush's tax cuts haven't created any jobs.

- Every American got their 300 dollars. The intention was that the americans would spend it thus stimulating the economy. What is it spent on? Electronics, games and toys, entertainment equipemnt. But these items not produced in the US or are produced by companies employing illegals, therefore the intended economic push never happens. -