so nelson...

[satchboogie]

basically, the safest and most productive way to burn fat is by increasing lean body mass, eating less, and remaining active?

no fat burners, or ckd?

i agree. who else is with?

 

[Mini Viper]

Satchboogie -

I was about to say exactly the same thing, but eating less???

So Nelson is saying in the previous thread that if cardio does not burn fat then its a waste of time.

 

[liftsiron]

I pretty much agree except, I would say eating properly not eating less. Proper eating will help to gain lbwt. Also a little cardio is fine but not as a method for fat reduction. I have found out that doing 3 leg days in a two week peroid is a big boost in keeping fat off as compared to legs once per week. This way you get six leg days a month instead of four. Research has shown that a one hour long INTENSE leg workout burns as much calories from fat as five one hour long aerobic session.

The reason being is that it takes the matabolism many hours to recover from a killer leg work out, from 24 to 48 hours for full recovery, this is where you get the majority of extra bodyfat burned from weight training, it is in the recovery phase. After aerobics the body useually recovers in minutes depending on how fit you are. To sum it up 2 extra leg days a month equals approx 10 hours on the thread mill.

 

[BrickGirl]

I agree

 

[satchboogie]

[B Research has shown that a one hour long INTENSE leg workout burns as much calories from fat as five one hour long aerobic session.

The reason being is that it takes the matabolism many hours to recover from a killer leg work out, from 24 to 48 hours for full recovery, this is where you get the majority of extra bodyfat burned from weight training, it is in the recovery phase. After aerobics the body useually recovers in minutes depending on how fit you are. To sum it up 2 extra leg days a month equals approx 10 hours on the thread mill. [/B]

very informative.

 

[Judo Tom]

i definately agree here but i would say that it is not limited to just leg workouts.. leg workouts are best but I also use workouts where i use my whole body or half body more frequently and it keeps me lean if im not doing judo

 

[Nelson Montana]

Now you're getting it.

Wow, and to think this very concept spurred such vehemence only a year or so ago. Actually it still does on boards as unenlightened as this. I had people on one board so pissed at my theories on this that they had me banned! They want to believe their magic diets and their endless treadmill sessions and their ZMA was the answer. Nope. Move more, eat less. But of course, the right movement and the right eating is a big part of it.

 

[psychedout]

I actually I beginning to agree with Nelson here... liftsiron, very good post as well...

I am cutting and I can say I am guilty of doing some cardio (2-3 25 minute sessions weekly). But cardio does have benefits for the heart, and lung capacity.

 

[40butpumpin]

liftsiron makes some excellent points. i'd just add to that all compound exercises will be better than supplemental, isolation shit any day. stick to big, multi-joint exercises, and you'll become a calorie burning inferno. minimizing time between sets i think is a greatly underestimated tool for advancing into other energy systems, energy systems which will turn to fat for fuel, but Nelson has hit on this before. i also agree that eating right goes a long way toward not experiencing any negative effects of a calorie reduction, albeit a slow one.

 

[liftsiron]

40butpumpin liftsiron makes some excellent points. i'd just add to that all compound exercises will be better than supplemental, isolation shit any day. stick to big, multi-joint exercises, and you'll become a calorie burning inferno. minimizing time between sets i think is a greatly underestimated tool for advancing into other energy systems, energy systems which will turn to fat for fuel, but Nelson has hit on this before. i also agree that eating right goes a long way toward not experiencing any negative effects of a calorie reduction, albeit a slow one.

No doubt compound exercises are the answer to building muscle. I don't bullshit during a workout, but I allow adaquate recovery time between sets, about a minute or two, not ten like some people.

 

[Fonz]

basically, the safest and most productive way to burn fat is by increasing lean body mass, eating less, and remaining active?

no fat burners, or ckd?

i agree. who else is with?

AlCar/GLA/CLA/r-ALA/Green Tea stack.

Its non-adrenergic.

You don't have to take stimulants if you don't want to. The science of non-stimulative nutrient partiotining has come a long way in the past year.

Fonz

 

[NorCalBdyBldr]

psychedout said:

But cardio does have benefits for the heart, and lung capacity.

Actually I suspect that pumping iron also has some positive effects on heart and lungs as well but just different effects.

 

[DeepZenPill]

I've leaned up a nice bit ever since I started doing DC training. My diet didn't change, but I was busting my ass hard during my workouts, and only taking those 15 deep breaths between all sets. My heart rate stays pretty elevated throughout the workout, and when I hit those 20 rep squats at the end I know I just pushed my body to the limits.

Everyone's different, but amazingly switching from 6 days a week volume workouts to 3 days a week DC high intensity has been the best thing I've ever done for fat loss. It seems kinda counterintuitive, you would expect to burn more calories with twice as much volume.

I altered my diet to eat MUCH cleaner and get more protein and EFA's and I'm the biggest and leanest I've ever been. I walk all over the fucking place all day too, so I count that as my cardio.

So I would agree, eating right, increasing LBM, training right, and staying active are key to leaning up.

 

[pitbullstl]

I agree for the most part....but not about eating less......just clean calories......for example if I take in less than 2600 calories a day....my lbm decreases significantly....as far as cardio goes...to each there own....I have a 4 year old to chase around the house and play soccer with...(hyper little girl, get's it from dad) and cardio is a mainstay in my regimen.....Nelson has argued this point in the past...but I am a firm believer in that cardio DOES in fact make for a stronger heart.....as far as fatburners go....never used em' never will.....I have always viewed them as a quick fix for lazy people.....legs get hit 3 times in 15 days for me...so I also believe that compound exercises such as squats and deads....significantly promote lbm as they are so taxing on the CNS........

 

[Slyder190]

Liftsiron

Liftsiron, where do you get your logic from? Do you have anything to back up your theories? Studies, reports?...etc? Just curiuous how you came up with that.

 

[pharmguy]

I don't see how you can say cardio is a waste of time for burning fat. Everyone's body is different, everyone works out differently because everyone responds differently to different things. Nelson, if he lets him self go, would probably be skinny and wimpy, me, if I let myself go, Id be fat and stumpy. So Nelson believes in eating right and lifting. I beleive for me, I need to eat right, lift, and do cardio. If i just try and eat right and lift, I am not going to be happy with my results. You can't just make these across the board statements that apply to everyone.

 

[DepressiveJuice]

liftsiron, i like the idea of doing 3 leg workouts in a two week period. woud working out each bodypart 3 times for every two weeks be more beneficial? also, what is your split like?

 

[Fonz]

I don't see how you can say cardio is a waste of time for burning fat. Everyone's body is different, everyone works out differently because everyone responds differently to different things. Nelson, if he lets him self go, would probably be skinny and wimpy, me, if I let myself go, Id be fat and stumpy. So Nelson believes in eating right and lifting. I beleive for me, I need to eat right, lift, and do cardio. If i just try and eat right and lift, I am not going to be happy with my results. You can't just make these across the board statements that apply to everyone.

To burn fat weights+cardio+small caloric deficit....pretty much guarantees fat loss.

You are not gaining an ounce of LBM if you do 1+ hrs cardio/day.
You need to cut back on cardio to gain mass.

I do 2hrs cardio/day on average....and I'm sitting at 4,500Kcal/day. I was at 4,000Kcal/day but was losing muscle. With increasing cardio, you need to increase calories. No two ways about it. Even on AAS.

And not everybody just lives and breathes bodybuilding(Directed at Nelson). We have other things to do like school, social life, sports etc..etc.. All these things reflect on our physique.
People don't plan their lives around meals(Well, some do...b/c its their chosen sport), but I imagine its quite the opposite.

Fonz

 

[pharmguy]

And not everybody just lives and breathes bodybuilding(Directed at Nelson). We have other things to do like school, social life, sports etc..etc.. All these things reflect on our physique.

Very well said.

It would be great if I could just plan my meals, cook, workout, and focus on BB'ing all day. School really interferes with all that.

 

[pharmguy]

again, I agree with SK!

 

[sk*]

basically, the safest and most productive way to burn fat is by increasing lean body mass, eating less, and remaining active?

no fat burners, or ckd?

i agree. who else is with?

I will be shocked if just ONE endomorph agrees with this.

Sure it is easy to make a statement like this when you have had abs all your life ...

I'd like to see a true endomorph reach 5-6% bodyfat by "remaining active".

-sk

 

[papucho]

basically, the safest and most productive way to burn fat is by increasing lean body mass, eating less, and remaining active?

no fat burners, or ckd?

i agree. who else is with?

Agree

 

[mt]

basically, the safest and most productive way to burn fat is by increasing lean body mass, eating less, and remaining active?

If it were only that easy.

I think most of us on this board are trying like hell to increase muscle mass. Few would disagree that for most people increasing muscle mass beyond normal levels is quite difficult. The idea of losing fat and gaining muscle is just wishful thinking for most of us. To increase lean muscle mass beyond normal levels requires temendous effort and keeping your body in an extreme anabolic state (drugs, food, food and more food) and even this is no guarantee. It is rare to find an advance bodybuilder who is able to put on an appreciably amount of lean body mass without some increase in body fat.

There is no doubt that the more muscle you carry the more calories you burn just staying alive but it's adding on that extra muscle that's the tough part. And that usually comes with some extra fat as well. Then you have to cut calories, increase activity (aerobics?) and try like hell to maintain what muscle you've manage to put on.

It sounds good to say that if you want to lose fat to just increase muscle mass but I'm not sure how realistic that is. Every bodybuilder I know has to cut calories prior to a contest, do some aerobic type activity and rarely, if ever, think they will be adding muscle as they diet down.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Fonz's comments are misdirected.

Anyone familiar with my work knows I am not the type who advocates living and breathing bodybuilding around the clock. In fact I've been attacked on the other end for being lax about diet. But I just think life is too short to stress over everything you eat and not enjoy the things you like. (In moderation).

Also, it seems different people are agruing different points here. Contest preperation has nothing to do with everyday bodybuilding. Gaining mass and losing weight and losing fat are 3 different things with 3 different approaches.

And not for nothing, I'm a little tired of people projecting the assumption that I judge my comments solely on my personal experience. Yes, I try everything I advocate myself, but I've also worked with hundreds of people, from athletes to housewives and what works, works.

And there is absolutely no evidence that cardio is any better for you heart than weight training. And I don't mean powerlifting -- weight traning in the truest sense like liftiron explained.

And having said all that I'd like to add that an active lifestyle is VERY important. You can not underestimate the value of lots of daily walking and /or sports-like activity. No amount of cardio can make up for it.

 

[flex123]

Two of my buddies, one who works out and one who doesn't both lost around 40lbs each within 6 months by restricting their calories and eatting clean. One actually followed atkins and the other just lowered his calorie intake and steared away from the crap food.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Two of my buddies, one who works out and one who doesn't both lost around 40lbs each within 6 months by restricting their calories and eatting clean. One actually followed atkins and the other just lowered his calorie intake and steared away from the crap food.

And there you have it.

 

[StRoNg_WoN]

Hmm... being an ecto in nature... I don't do cardio... never have... and I'm ALWAYS at or less then 10%...

Personally I restrict that sort of thing, as I can't afford to burn the cals...

 

[sk*]

but I've also worked with hundreds of people, from athletes to housewives and what works, works.

Please tell us who.

Were/are you a personal trainor?

Advisor?

How did these people approach you?

-sk

 

[mt]

.

And there is absolutely no evidence that cardio is any better for you heart than weight training. And I don't mean powerlifting -- weight traning in the truest sense like liftiron explained.

I've often wondered if increasing heart rate is always a good thing. It may be a necessary under physical exertion but I can increase my heart rate by driving in traffic or arguing with my gf. So I wonder if increasing heart rate is in and of itself a good thing and will enhance fitness levels. I think the involuntary smooth muscles are not like the skeletal muscles which get stronger by being subjected to an intense load. I mean does you colon, or whatever it is that pushes waste out, get stronger if you eat more? Does the heart actually grow and get stronger due to any over load? I'm not sure. What does a muscular heart look like? Isn't the heart classified as an organ and does an organ get stronger being subjected to stress? Do you make you liver stronger by drinking alcohol which forces your liver to work harder?

 

[Empire]

I agree. Lift right + eat right = less bf and more lbm.

 

[bseemba2001]

I agree with the majority of the comments. But remember, everyone reacts different to the change of the diet. I usually just change the composition of my diet, e.g. reduce the number of carbs and increase protein and fat. Every time I up my cardio, I end up loosing both fat and muscle weight. I guess my advise would be not to change more than one thing at a time (diet, cardio, lifting routine).

 

[rsd01]

Nelson

Unless you've conducted double blind studies then your comments are purely anecdotal. No matter how many people you've worked with it doesn't add up to anything unless its scientific. On the other hand a lot of good often comes out of anecdotal evidence. I agree that cardio is not the be all end all for fat burning and that many people can lose fat without it. I do however think it has its place in a healthy lifestyle. That being said a lot of people tend to overdo the cardio. 2 hours on the treadmill leads to overtraining and overeating. I see so many women doing too much cardio its ridiculous. They eat ten bagels and five frozen yogurts with chocolate sprinkles during the day and wodner why the 2 hours of spinning class they just took isn't doing anything for their fat ass.

 

[theoak01]

Im proof that works, I only got 1mth of lifting in this year due to money and my gym went under construction, I ate very well played rugby 2 times a week for 2 hours total and lost alot of bf (1-2%)and maintanted weight

 

[Fonz]

Two of my buddies, one who works out and one who doesn't both lost around 40lbs each within 6 months by restricting their calories and eatting clean. One actually followed atkins and the other just lowered his calorie intake and steared away from the crap food.

Your two friends are exceptions to the rule though.

9/10 University/College students eat like crap, and just drink too much.

Stress and social pressure are the two killers in university. I've seen loads of freshman who looked reasonably fit become serious lard asses after a year.

Fonz

 

[RADAR]

I disagree that theory of lowering your intake just doesn't cut it with us older guys due to our slower metabolism-its a proven fact that cardio raises your BMR-for those who don't know(BASIC METABOLIC RATE) thruout the day-thus raising your body's natural fat burning furnace!!!!!Believe me i've tried both!!!

SIGH!!!!!! this topic will never die!


RADAR

 

[Nelson Montana]

Actually, resistance exercise raise BMR much better than aerobics.

 

[RADAR]

Actually, resistance exercise raise BMR much better than aerobics.

Wait until you're my age,then say that!!!!!!

RADAR

 

[sk*]

Wait until you're my age,then say that!!!!!!

RADAR

He has worked with 100s of people your age, and housewives.

-sk

 

[Nelson Montana]

RADAR: How old are you? Aereobics are especially bad for people over 40 and weight training is very benificial.




I have no idea have sk is saying or trying to insinuate.

 

[sk*]

RADAR: How old are you? Aereobics are especially bad for people over 40 and weight training is very benificial.




I have no idea have sk is saying or trying to insinuate.

Man, don't you get it?

Even after training for 10 years you had less muscle mass than my younger sister, but you did cardio. Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you you shouldn't have done cardio. Once you stopped it and increased your calories, you grew, wow!

It is insulting when you come here and tell people what they are doing is wrong without supporting yourself, specially when they say it is working for them.

-sk

 

[revexrevex]

I agree with sk, just increasing muscle mass is not enough for sustained fat loss for many people. There are many 260 - 300 lb powerlifters with ton of lean mass.. according to your logic all of them them should be 5% bodyfat because of enormous amount of lean body mass they have. Your opinion is just plain wrong when you communicate this generalization to an entire spectrum of people.

 

[RADAR]

RADAR: How old are you? Aereobics are especially bad for people over 40 and weight training is very benificial.




I have no idea have sk is saying or trying to insinuate.

Hes having fun i think!I'm 52 and around 10% BF 188lbs. believe me i train,been doing it since 18,so now i'm gonna konk out since i'm over 40?I don't think so.I believe like everything else give the body time to recouperate and the rest will follow!


RADAR

 

[RADAR]

Man, don't you get it?

Even after training for 10 years you had less muscle mass than my younger sister, but you did cardio. Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you you shouldn't have done cardio. Once you stopped it and increased your calories, you grew, wow!

It is insulting when you come here and tell people what they are doing is wrong without supporting yourself, specially when they say it is working for them.

-sk

Exactically my point SK-i used to weigh abit over 200 at 11%BF lots of muscle but my mobility sucked,stretching didn't help either!

RADAR

 

[satchboogie]

SK....

at what stage did the anymosity toward nelson start??

 

[liftsiron]

I agree with sk, just increasing muscle mass is not enough for sustained fat loss for many people. There are many 260 - 300 lb powerlifters with ton of lean mass.. according to your logic all of them them should be 5% bodyfat because of enormous amount of lean body mass they have. Your opinion is just plain wrong when you communicate this generalization to an entire spectrum of people.

Did you even read the entire thread, no where did it say that you can eat like a fucking pig, and retain 5% body fat regardless of lean muscle mass.

Read ever so carefully lean mass plus DIET, plus DIET plus DIET equals more lean muscle mass in the long term.

This does not apply to those people that eat a box of pop tarts every morning with their oatmeal and egg whites. Nor does it apply to the pizza and beer, four nights a week crowd.

 

[sk*]

SK....

at what stage did the anymosity toward nelson start??

I have absolutely nothing against him. I just agree with him on some things, and disagree strongly with this one ...

If I have nothing against him, does that mean I can't question him?

-sk

 

[OKIE]

Nelson,

I agree that you can lose fat and maintain quality muscle w/o any cardio at all, but are you saying that it is bad to do cardio? I bike or walk for about 45 almost every morning. Doing this not only burns cals, but also makes me feel better throughout the day. I agree that some overdo it with the cardio, but in moderation, I think it can be very beneficial.

 

[gunner44]

Re: Re: so nelson...

AlCar/GLA/CLA/r-ALA/Green Tea stack.

Its non-adrenergic.

You don't have to take stimulants if you don't want to. The science of non-stimulative nutrient partiotining has come a long way in the past year.

Fonz

Fonz,why do all of your comments make my eyes bleed?

LOL, dude...you could complicate a wet dream with 50 different compounds and chemicals if you want to, but Ill just do it naturally.

The body is a complicated machine, but not as complicated as you seem to think.

It is good to see things comming back to earth around hear.

Wow you mean I can burn a lot of calories working the BIGGEST muscle group in my body?

Holy shit! Thats amazing.......What decade is this Nelson? It feels more like the 70's again.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Did you even read the entire thread, no where did it say that you can eat like a fucking pig, and retain 5% body fat regardless of lean muscle mass.

Read ever so carefully lean mass plus DIET, plus DIET plus DIET equals more lean muscle mass in the long term.

This does not apply to those people that eat a box of pop tarts every morning with their oatmeal and egg whites. Nor does it apply to the pizza and beer, four nights a week crowd.

THANK YOU LIFTSIRON

I'd say 99% of the time people start in with these arguments they do so by twisting the original statements into something ridiculous, then they argue against how ridiculous it is. (!?!) Well, I've decided not to get into flames because of misunderstandings. You'll have to figure it out for yourself.

And once again gunner offers a retort with no explanation at all. Also typical. And pointless.

OKIE: I love walking and biking. That's just active life stuff, not what I consider "aerobics." Actually, the definition of aerobics means "with oxygen" so EVERYTHING can be considered aerobic.



I still don't know what sk is saying or trying to insinuate.

 

[OKIE]

Thanks Nelson.