slow progress in squats?

[teirrah]

I'm wondering if anyone can suggest ways for me to make faster progress on my squats or whether its little by little slowly does it from here on out. I train legs once a week and start with 3 sets of squats, first set 8 to 12, then next two descending to faliure. Rest 2 to 3 minutes between sets and always need to be spotted out of the hole for the last couple of reps. I started squats about a year ago doing @ 30 kg (60lbs?) and slowly slowly crept up to current working weight of 70kg. I am 5"9 and weigh 70 kg and would love to get to the point where I can squat a chunk more than I weigh. If squat progress is a long slow road then so be it, but I am curious as to how other newbies are getting along.
After squats I do 2 sets either leg press or hack squats, 2 sets leg extentions and 2 for leg curls. All 8 to 12, as much weight as I can handle... With thanks!

 

[Realgains]

You need to drop the isolation work( leg extensions and hacks) as it will do next to nothing for you except drain valuable recovery powers, unless you take steroids. Doing leg press after hard squating is over kill and will likely hinder your progress.

You need to focus on adding small to tiny bits of weight to the bar in perfect form every week. You need to train in cycles...start easy at about 85% of your maximum weight for reps and then over the weeks increase the weight until you are going all out on each work set. as the going gets tougher and tougher you need to be adding smaller and smaller bits of weight to the bar weekly until you are only adding 2 pounds per week to the bar....do this for as long as you can. When you can no longer make the reps then let the reps drop to sets of 8...when you can no longer add weight to the sets of 8 then drop to 3 working sets of 5 and continue to add weight and when you can no longer add weight to the sets of 5 drop a set and do 2 sets of 5 and when weight progression stops again then take a full 10 days off training and come back with 85-90% of your previous bests for reps and start another cycle

... OR...when you can no longer add small bits of weight to the sets of 8 then drop a set and do only 1-2 all out sets of 8..... then take 10 full days off from weights and come back at about 85-90 of your previous best for reps and start another training cycle. Going to 3 sets of 5 is a good idea but you don't have to.

This should be done on all compound exercises which should make up almost 100% of your exercises in your routine.

The natural trainee CANNOT ALWAYS train all out....you MUST train in cycles with lay offs and some easy time at the beginning of the cycle.

A progressive cycle can go on for 6 months or more with the tiny weight increases....as long as you are adding weight to the bars you do not need to stop the cycle and take a lay off.

Get some tiny plates www.fractionalplates.com

The 2.5 pounders are too much to be adding to each side of the bar every week or two after the going gets tough.

Do this......... 5 minutes on the tread mill at a steep angle and brisk walk,
one warm up with the bar, next warm up with a fairly light weight for 6 then next warm up with a heavier weight for 5-6. DO NOT FATIGUE yourself with the warm ups.
NOW.....load the bar up with the most weight your can strictly use for 10 reps and do 12. rest 4 minutes and then do another set with the same weight and try for 10, if you have the energy then do one last set with 10% less weight for 10-12.

DONE QUADS.....you have just worked every fiber in the quad, hip and butt and most of the fibers in the hamstring if you go down to just below parallel.

Next do 2 sets of stiff leg deadlifts after a warm up set. Do a search under my name to find out how to do these correctly.
Next do one all out set of back extensions with weight for 1 set of 10.
You can do a set of leg curls if you like but do them BEFORE the deadlifts so as to offer some pre- exhaust benefit to the hamstring.

You have now worked every fiber in the hamstring and low back.


Read my sticky on proper steroid free training above.

If I could only get people to believe that you need only 2-3 very hard deep sets of squats to work the entire thigh.

RG

 

[makedah]

Last summer, I couldn't squat the BAR!!!

I quickly learned that the squat is a total-body exercise. I'm taking time now to build my back strength (esp. my upper back) because my legs can move more than I can safely hold across my back.

How is your 'core'? Are your abs and low back strong? What about your hip flexors?

Pull-throughs are fantastic. They strengthen the hams, butt and hips. http://www.weightliftingdiscussion.com/pullthrough.html

 

[lucidblue]

You need to drop the isolation work( leg extensions and hacks) as it will do next to nothing for you except drain valuable recovery powers, unless you take steroids. Doing leg press after hard squating is over kill and will likely hinder your progress.

You need to focus on adding small to tiny bits of weight to the bar in perfect form every week. You need to train in cycles...start easy at about 85% of your maximum weight for reps and then over the weeks increase the weight until you are going all out on each work set. as the going gets tougher and tougher you need to be adding smaller and smaller bits of weight to the bar weekly until you are only adding 2 pounds per week to the bar....do this for as long as you can. When you can no longer make the reps then let the reps drop to sets of 8...when you can no longer add weight to the sets of 8 then drop to 3 working sets of 5 and continue to add weight and when you can no longer add weight to the sets of 5 drop a set and do 2 sets of 5 and when weight progression stops again then take a full 10 days off training and come back with 85-90% of your previous bests for reps and start another cycle

... OR...when you can no longer add small bits of weight to the sets of 8 then drop a set and do only 1-2 all out sets of 8..... then take 10 full days off from weights and come back at about 85-90 of your previous best for reps and start another training cycle. Going to 3 sets of 5 is a good idea but you don't have to.

This should be done on all compound exercises which should make up almost 100% of your exercises in your routine.

The natural trainee CANNOT ALWAYS train all out....you MUST train in cycles with lay offs and some easy time at the beginning of the cycle.

A progressive cycle can go on for 6 months or more with the tiny weight increases....as long as you are adding weight to the bars you do not need to stop the cycle and take a lay off.

Get some tiny plates www.fractionalplates.com

The 2.5 pounders are too much to be adding to each side of the bar every week or two after the going gets tough.

Do this......... 5 minutes on the tread mill at a steep angle and brisk walk,
one warm up with the bar, next warm up with a fairly light weight for 6 then next warm up with a heavier weight for 5-6. DO NOT FATIGUE yourself with the warm ups.
NOW.....load the bar up with the most weight your can strictly use for 10 reps and do 12. rest 4 minutes and then do another set with the same weight and try for 10, if you have the energy then do one last set with 10% less weight for 10-12.

DONE QUADS.....you have just worked every fiber in the quad, hip and butt and most of the fibers in the hamstring if you go down to just below parallel.

Next do 2 sets of stiff leg deadlifts after a warm up set. Do a search under my name to find out how to do these correctly.
Next do one all out set of back extensions with weight for 1 set of 10.
You can do a set of leg curls if you like but do them BEFORE the deadlifts so as to offer some pre- exhaust benefit to the hamstring.

You have now worked every fiber in the hamstring and low back.


Read my sticky on proper steroid free training above.

If I could only get people to believe that you need only 2-3 very hard deep sets of squats to work the entire thigh.

RG

This has been very helpful Realgains. I just started squatting in December. I'm 5'4 and weigh 120lbs. I started out squatting 75lbs and have worked up to 95lbs for 3 sets of 8-12 (Smith machine, as I don't have a spotter). I think I will try one of your methods below. Currently, my leg workout includes:

- Squats 3x(8-12) currently at 95lbs
- SLDL 3x(8-12) currently at 65lbs. I don't feel like I'm getting the stretch I need in the hamstring. I know my legs could take more weight, but my grip is weak.
- Leg Extensions 3x12 65lbs. I was told to keep doing these b/c of a knee problem... but according to what you just said, this might be overkill???
- I do calf presses on the leg press machine 3x12 with 130lbs
- Back Extensions with 100lbs (but I do this on a different day with the rest of my back workout). Should I do it on leg day instead?

 

[The Shadow]

Well....for the record...I agree with dropping the leg press on squar days but would insist on keeping the hacks in there as I dont see them as an isolation movement at all.

Whn my quats stall, it is usally on of the three things:

1 - lack of strength in lumbars
2 - lack of flexibility in hips
3 - lack of rest or food.

 

[flexygrl]

Corn,

I agree with you. When my squat suffers it's usually lack of food or energy. I still do leg extensions and it hasn't hindered me in anyway. Atleast I don't think it has. I am still going up in weight in everything including, squats and especially extensions. I rock on LE's. I can almost do as much as my husband.

 

[The Shadow]

I personally love Le's....my legs LEAPED in quality when I added them as a main exercise along with hacks and lunges

 

[valerie]

More food for thought.

Love those pull thrus-valerie

 

[teirrah]

Many thanks everyonefor these positive pointers, so it is gonna be a long slow road! Thats cool as I'm having the best time of my life lifting and am damn sure I'll still be training 20, 30 years down the track. So I have time, and now I have more knowledge.
Interesting comments about not enough food hampering progress. A couple of weeks ago I ate more on leg day but although it was a good couple of hours before lifting those extra carbs came right back up.... so last week went back to oatmeal an hour before lifting and just felt a bit nauseous.... what does anyone else eat prior to leg training to feel good and strong for squats?
Corn, can I ask why you would keep the hacks? I can see now that leg press after squats is redundant but how are hacks different? With many thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Realgains]

This has been very helpful Realgains. I just started squatting in December. I'm 5'4 and weigh 120lbs. I started out squatting 75lbs and have worked up to 95lbs for 3 sets of 8-12 (Smith machine, as I don't have a spotter). I think I will try one of your methods below. Currently, my leg workout includes:

- Squats 3x(8-12) currently at 95lbs
- SLDL 3x(8-12) currently at 65lbs. I don't feel like I'm getting the stretch I need in the hamstring. I know my legs could take more weight, but my grip is weak.
- Leg Extensions 3x12 65lbs. I was told to keep doing these b/c of a knee problem... but according to what you just said, this might be overkill???
- I do calf presses on the leg press machine 3x12 with 130lbs
- Back Extensions with 100lbs (but I do this on a different day with the rest of my back workout). Should I do it on leg day instead?

Back extensions with 100 pounds! Do you mean good mornings?
I meant hyperextensions.

Drop the leg extensions. The squats will strengthen the kness better.

Stiff leg deadlifts TECHNIQUE.
Use wrist straps with a shoulder width palms facing towards you grip.
The movement is A PIVOTING motion at the hip and NOT a reaching down as you bend over motion. You stick your butt backwards and pivot at the hip. kEEP YOUR BACK FLAT OR LOW BACK SLIGHTLY ARCHED. You go down to no more than mid shin OR LESS. Full stretch of the hams comes at the point just below the knee to up to mid shin. If you go lower you open up the lumbar spine too much and you WILL get injured in time.

SO.....Get those straps on.....take a deep breath as you lift the weight off the rack....stick your chest up and out and the butt goes backward with a pivot at the hip. Hold your breath just like in the squat until you feel yourself breaking through the sticking point on the way up. Lots of deep breathing as the set gets tough. The knees reamain very slightly unlocked throughout the movement. The bar stays very close to the legs all the time.
DO THEM slowly and with no explosive burst out of the bottom like you do with squats. DO NOT REACH downward with the hands/arms...just pivot at the hip and bend over.
DO NOT go to complete failure on this exercise as it is too risky...leave one rep in you....this is WAY harder than most train the movement though.

Try doing the SLDL movement with no weight, not even a bar...and feel the stretch in the hams as you pivit the hip and bend over.

Some people, like my wife , can still leg deadlift more than they can squat.

I would do the hyperextensions on the same day as legs and deadlifts.

I would also do shrugs on the same day that you do the stiff leg deads as SLDL's work the traps hard.

It doesn't matter when you do calves. I don't like to do them on leg day because I am so "weak in the kness" after squats.
I like leg press toe raises best.

RG

 

[Realgains]

Well....for the record...I agree with dropping the leg press on squar days but would insist on keeping the hacks in there as I dont see them as an isolation movement at all.

Whn my quats stall, it is usally on of the three things:

1 - lack of strength in lumbars
2 - lack of flexibility in hips
3 - lack of rest or food.

Corn....the hacks will not help her and they are over kill IMHO although I agree they are not totally an isolation movement.

We have to remember that most people cannot do much volume, unless on gear, as they have a very limited recovery potential.


Three heavy work sets of squats is more than enough for quads if done correctly and with enough intensity. I am telling you that very few people want to do legs with me because after 3 sets of all out squats they can barely walk let alone think about doing more quad work.

Some people can grow well on a moderate to high volume while natural but these poeple are few and far between indeed.

SO>>>> most people always need to keep things very basic focusing ALL their efforts into the BIG movements. They also need to do low to lowish volume and have plenty of days off weight training each week. They need to train very hard but in cycles. The focus MUST be on the big basic compound movements either solely or almost so with a primary goal to increase weights used in strict form in small and then tiny increments on a weekly or biweekly basis. When even tiny weight progression becomes impossible, inspite of lowering the reps a little and perhaps dropping a work set, they need to take 10 days off and then come back and start another cycle with about 90% of their previous bests for reps and then slowly work up to and past their previous best.

When she can deep squat 200 lbs 10 times then she can start to think about adding hacks( but not when squatting very hard) for more leg sweep etc. Up until that time she needs to focus every bit of her efforts into squats alone and THEN good gains in size shape and strength will have to come.

As a side....I attended a Tom Platz seminar years ago and he said that he could count how many times on one hand he did anything besides deep squats for his Quads, until he was squatting over 400 pounds for sets of 15-20 reps. He also said that nothing he ever did added much mass to his quads besides squats and leg presses and that he ONLY did leg extensions and hacks "to help bring out that last 5% of detail and sweep to the thigh beofre a show. In the off season Tom ONLY SQUATED for his quads right up to the time he retired, in an effort to increase his leg and overall body size and strength.

For those that don't know about Tom Platz let me tell you that he had FREAKY thighs and could deep high bar squat over 600 pounds 20 times!!!! One of his favorite sayings was "half squats, half legs"

Problem is almost everyone reads and almost copies routines they see in the glossy magazines not fully understanding how important good genetics and steroid use is to the success of these routines.

The BS glossy Mags have damaged bodybuilding and NOT helped it at all....so people turn to steroid because they cannot make good progress with volume workouts done 5 and 6 days per week.

I would say that most people need to leave the leg extensions and hacks to contest prep so as to help bring out a little more detail or improve on the lateral sweep of the quad etc

Corn, you already have good legs and the addition of hacks probably help you a bit with leg sweep etc but I bet you built the vast majority of your mass and shape with heavy squats and leg presses.

Points to consider........
#1. You probably have better genetics than most allowing you to get away with higher volume than the typical trainee(90% of trainees)
#2. You probably reduce volume when really working squats hard.
#3. You probably reduce volume while training without gear
#4. You most likely built the majority of your quad mass, strength and shape with squats and leg presses.

#5. FEW people can gain progressively, for any length of time, doing more than a few very hard sets per body part, and especially for quad work and in various deadlifts, unless they are on steroids.
#6. FEW people can train more frequently than three days per week on a three way split and make good gains in strength and mass unless on steroids.
#7. The glossy magazines of today, for the most part, offer okay advice to steroid users and or those that are genetically NOT typical (perhaps 5% of the general public) They offer AMLOST ZERO good advice for the genetically typical natural trainee( probably at least 90% of the general public)

Corn I know you are fully aware of the above....I say it for those that are reading and do not have a good grasp on proper natural training.

Ladies always remember that Lenda Murray, J. Bermann and the like are not only genetically blessed but they also take A LOT of steroid and growth hormone so they can train any way they like and make good gains.



RG


RG

 

[The Shadow]

Corn....the hacks will not help her and they are over kill IMHO although I agree they are not totally an isolation movement.

...that is like saying that close grips benchs will not help boost your regular bench....they are similar enough that there would be a lot of carry over....I am referring to hacks on a 60 degree press....not 45....if you raise the bottom of the platform it is identical to the thigh/calf angle at the bottom of a squat.

She is doing 3 all out sets anyway and not seeing results...keep the squats and hacks and maybe even reverse the order...I would bet 100 points of Karma is she were to switch the routine to hacks, squats, stiffdeads and lunges - she would progress.

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

How is your 'core'? Are your abs and low back strong? What about your hip flexors?[/url]

I think this is totally key to bringing up your squat #s... strenthen your core & the rest will follow. Strong ABS are so key to heavy squats!!!

 

[wilson6]

Periodization is the key to building strength. Too heavy, same routine, too often is the most common problem regardless of what you do or don't do exercise wise. Recovery is the key, juice or no juice.

I dropped SLD's years ago and that helped my squat considerably. I was doing too much for lower back. Now I do pull throughs, back extensions (roman chair), and weighted leg raises on the platform with my legs spread wide (the one Louie designed years ago to rehab his back).

I only use Romanian DLs with my clients once every two weeks and have them perform ball squats with dumbbells as part of their routine for balance and stability in place of hacks.

Most of the women I work with start out barely being able to get out of the hole with the bar and in about 4 - 6 months they are squatting 115 - 185 for reps off the 11" box.

W6

 

[spatts]

I do SLD's about once a month max, and I do them as accessory work for the hamstring stretch. Core work, as Wilson suggested, along with learning proper form, which Wilson ALSO suggested (lol), have been the ticket to improving my squat.

I do not use a linear periodization, but a periodization based on how I "feel." It works much better for me. I may not gain 5 pounds every week on a lift, but I will gain nothing for 2-3 and then 20 pounds all at once. Detail are in the sig.

I feel I have gotten the MOST carry over from goodmornings.

 

[RottenWillow]

Generally speaking at what depth do the glutes really begin to contract? If a person stops at, let's say, one inch above parallel do we avoid a lot of glute contraction? And if we do stop the descent that high is it true that we wont be working the quads as thoroughly?

Spatts what does the "linear" qualifier mean? Does that just mean a fixed schedule for training heavier, then lighter?

 

[spatts]

Yes. I don't use a chart or plan my weight. I always shoot for max strain..sometimes that's a PR sometimes it's not. The days it's not, my body probably wasn't up for it, so I don't push it. I find it safer and more effective. Like I said, there's more about it in the link in my sig.

The deeper you go in a squat, the more hamstring is recruited, which will hit the glutes harder too.

 

[Realgains]

...that is like saying that close grips benchs will not help boost your regular bench....they are similar enough that there would be a lot of carry over....I am referring to hacks on a 60 degree press....not 45....if you raise the bottom of the platform it is identical to the thigh/calf angle at the bottom of a squat.

She is doing 3 all out sets anyway and not seeing results...keep the squats and hacks and maybe even reverse the order...I would bet 100 points of Karma is she were to switch the routine to hacks, squats, stiffdeads and lunges - she would progress.

I disagree......I don't think you can compair hacks for legs and quad strength with close grip benches for triceps and bench strength.
Hacks work the thighs less than squats and work NO assiatnce muscle groups, but close grip benches work the triceps harder than bench pressing. Close grips are a tricep exercise used to build big triceps and a big bench press. The hacks are not building up the weak link muscle for squats. The weak link in squats are either simply the quads or sometimes the low back. The best assistance exercise for the squat is some form of deadlift IMHO and not more inferior quad work.

She needs to do the squats right and with intensity and with weight progression. She needs to cycle her efforts as well as I mentioned.

Doing MORE volume is NOT going to help most people get bigger legs or a better squat but it will cause most people to over train and see no results. If a person is not gaining on three hard sets of squats then doing more volume isn't going to correct the problem. Let say she is doing the squats properly and very hard progressively......she is not gaining because she is not recuperating and doing more volume will make things worse.

This is what I think she shoud do....take 10 days off now. Then come back with about 90% of her previous bests for reps and slowly work her way up to and beyond her previous bests....starting easy and going to very hard over the weeks. Focus on adding small and then tiny bits of weight to the bar on a weekly or biweekly basis. When further weight progress stalls she can either reduce the reps or take another lay off at this time. You can keep adding a couple pounds to the bar for quite a long time and sometimes for months on end if you have" all your ducks in a row". Just do 3 working sets of squats and 2-3 working sets of deadlifts. Incorporate regular deads from time to time.

It has been my experience that most natural trainees can do very little hard work and recuperate . Doing more volume usually results in a reduction of training intensity and too much drain on energy reserves that should be saved for recuperation.

I would bet my house that she will get more quad and general body developement from just three sets of properly done squats than from squats plus hacks plus lunges.

I also do not think that lunges are very effective in increasing leg mass and strength at all.

If she wanted to do more volume then I would recommend just 2 working sets of squats then after a 4 minutes rest she could do a very hard slow set of leg extensions for 12 reps, holding the weight at the top for a second on each rep, followed by a very hard set of deep leg presses in a pre -exhaust super set fashion or with no more than a minute rest between leg extensions and leg press. I have done this quad workout and believe me if done right it is extremely effective and NO other exercises or sets for the quads are needed.

My .02 after training natural bodybuilders and hockey players with typical genetics (perhaps 90% of the general public).

RG

RG

 

[spatts]

You never see a powerlifter doing lunges, extensions, leg presses (except Ed Coan and I seriously doubt that was the ticket to his success).

I guess I'd like to know what's more important to Teirrah. If she wants a bigger squat, she can throw about 1/2 this advice out.

 

[witkowsd]

This seems to be very helpful for me since I am lacking any muscles in my legs - do you see any benefit in doing step-ups? Leg Curls?

 

[valerie]

Personally I would not. Leg curls ( for me) don't hit the hammies like reg deads. Did the leg curls and got nowhere-now with the deads have put on some nice muscle. Would really just stick with the basics here-squats, deads, good mornings, pull thrus, sldl. Squats done correctly will really do more than all the leg curls in the world-valerie

 

[Realgains]

You never see a powerlifter doing lunges, extensions, leg presses (except Ed Coan and I seriously doubt that was the ticket to his success).

I guess I'd like to know what's more important to Teirrah. If she wants a bigger squat, she can throw about 1/2 this advice out.

YES!
I am not in favor of leg extensions at all except SOMETIMES to pre fatigue the thighs before squats or leg presses. This is done by very large powerful bodybuilders in an effort to reduce the required weight inn the compound exercise....it's more about safety than anything else. But one really has no real business doing this until you are already using A LOT of weight in the squat.
Leg presses are inferior to squats and lunges are a waste of time for most people IMHO, save for PERHAPS contest prep.

A lot of ladies do lunges in an effort to work the butt....you want a butt?...then start deep squating like a good bodybuilder or power lifter. My wife had your typical asian flat ass(no butt) the only thing that helped was deep squating and now she has a great butt he he he .
All you need to every do for leg mass, strength and dare I say shape, are squats and deadlifts of various types with good mornings or heavy strict hyperextensions as supplements for the weak link which is often the errectors.

The best advice on proper training now comes form Power lifters for the most part as bodybuilding has almost lost what works for the genetically typical steroid free trainee.

The best bodybuilding advice amoungst the pro's in the last 10 years has come form Dorian Yates. His book is quite good and I recommend it...although tone done the intensity a bit if steroid free and be sure to train in cycles. Even the genetic freak Yates said that he never trained ALL OUT all the time.
Rememeber this......if your weights are going up then keep up the good work as you are recuperating well. When the gains stop, increasing volume and adding the "smaller exercises" is normally the worst thing you can do

Yet that said.....there are some people that can do a fair bit of variety in leg training, and not even work that hard on the squat, and they gain well but I am certain that they are not your genetically typical steroid free trainee.
RG

 

[Realgains]

Generally speaking at what depth do the glutes really begin to contract? If a person stops at, let's say, one inch above parallel do we avoid a lot of glute contraction? And if we do stop the descent that high is it true that we wont be working the quads as thoroughly?

Spatts what does the "linear" qualifier mean? Does that just mean a fixed schedule for training heavier, then lighter?

You will feel the sacrum and butt "dip" downward when you reach that magic depth....this is when the hams and glutes are activated strongly. This means squatting pretty deep like a power lifter or Olympic lifter. Deep means to the point where the tops of the thighs are at least parallel to the ground. This is actually BELOW parallel.

NOTE: Some people, like the ledgendary Tom Platz, could safely squat to rock bottom. Not everyone is built to do this without straining the sacral/lower lumbar region.
Have someone look for the "dip" I talked about...and you can feel it too.

RG

 

[teirrah]

First a big thank you to everyone who took time and trouble to post suggestions, and sorry not to have replied more quickly.
It looks like both Real Gains and Cornholio agree that the leg press can go but Corn suggests keeping the hacks and doing lunges and reversing the order ... Corn, I've seen the avatar of your quads and they are superb, just awesome. When you started, what did you do in the beginning rather than what did you do once you had those legs? Needless to say at the moment I don't have any size, strength or shape to speak of and this is what I want. So.... I am going to do 3 sets of squats, 2 of deads and do a progressive cycle. Thank you for the detail of the posts, this board is exceptional, isn't it?

 

[Realgains]

Be careful to not fall into the trap of looking at what others do in their training. People like Corn are not genetically typical and can get away with doing much more variety than the typical person. We are kind of programed to look to people that are well developed for advice but the thing is most of theses people are somewhat blessed genetically and can train in many different ways and grow well.

Corn is not "wrong" as he is doing what works well for him and trying to offer his experince as a help to you. You can always try to do more variety like Corn does and include hacks and the like and it just may work for you but personally I don't think it is the best way for you to train.
I am not trying to step on Corns toes or anyone elses toes, I am just trying to offer what I think works best for the majority of trainees.

I would honestly say that about 90-95% of the genral public have average genetics for lifting at best. I don't know how many times I have seen people quit lifting because they cannot get results...still others turn to steroids very early in the lifting life in an effort to make gains...take enough gear and you can train any way you like and still make good gains....not so for the typical natural trainee.

I too can do a lot of variety and still grow will but I am not genetically typical at all as I can hold to alean 215 pounds at 5'10" without any steroids at all. Even though I can do a lot of variety I have found out that I can get better results by sticking primarily to the basics and by training hard in a lower volume.

If you are having a hard time gaining mass and strength with squats alone then you are doing something wrong....perhaps you are not training the squat right or with enough hard work or with progression in weights used as a primary focus. Perhaps you are just not recuperating and are in the gym too many times per week or doing too much cardio or not getting enough sleep or food.

Try to get "all your ducks in a row".

#1. Train no more often than 3 days per week on a three way split. ya I know...most people train more often than that but then again how many of them are genetically typical. If they are gentically typical how many of them use roughly the same weight in each exercise year after year ...LOTS!

Sure someone like Spatts might train 4-5 days per week but some days are easier days as she is training in the West Side power lifting way so it's a smart way to train if you have fairly good genetics..., Spatts is NOT genetically typical and is fact probably very gifted. Also, if Spatts and myself find that sticking the the basics in "raw training" works the best, and we are somewhat blessed genetically I think, then doing more volume and the "little exercises" is not likely to be the best thing for you to do. AH...but some say that Spatts is a power lifter and as such isn't concerned about betting bigger....well most power lifters are plenty big and for good reasons...you cannot lift a great deal of weight and not be big. Spatts knows that you can only get so strong without getting bigger. Spatts is pretty darn big for a women.
Powerlifters train for strength and size follows and many bodybuilders could learn a thing or two from that mentality.

The natural bodybuilder should focus on progressive strength as a primary goal. The reps can be a little higher than the power lifter but the focus should be much the same.


#2. EAT! Eat well. Eat at least three regular meals per day and then add a couple protein shakes each day as well. You don't have to pig out but you do need to eat a fair amount of food or you will not grow. Just avoid saturated fats. Eat plenty of Omega 3 and 6 oils. Try to limit refined food, especially junk food.

#3. Limit cardio. You CANNOT gain well in mass and strength while doing a lot of cardio. Cardio three times a week for 30 minutes at a time is enough.

#4. Get plenty of sleep....at least 8 hours every night.

#5. The rest of your training needs to be much on the same lines as your squats....basic, brief, and intense. Train in cycles(periodization) Focus on adding small and then tiny bits of weight to the bars weekly (micro loading)

The two most important exercises any natural trainee can do are the squat and some type of deadlift so give these priority. Also work the rest of your body hard with the big basic compound movements.

RG

 

[teirrah]

Thanks for your reply Realgains, and hope you don't think that I thought Cornholio's advice was "wrong". Yikes, I have nothing but total respect for the both of you and really appreciate all of the input on this thread from you guys and everyone else.

Since volume and variety aren't really giving me much in the way of size, strength or shape, and since I am in no way genetically gifted and I'm not juicing, the proposal of just doing squats and bringing in deads with periodization and tiny increments of weight sounds great.
I also will change my split to 3 days aweek. This will be the toughie as I love going to the gym but hey.

Anyway, thank you.

 

[Realgains]

You could still go to the gym 5 days per week but just do some cardio on the non weight training days, and you could do your abb work on those days instead of on the weight training days. Both moderate cardio and abb work will probably not have a negative impact on your recuperative ability.

Many people just don't fully understand how sytemically draining intense lifting is and how difficult it is to recuperate from training with weights 5 and 6 days per week....at least for the typical person (90%of the general public I think)

Be careful with the cardio and other sports as they will seriously eat away at your recuperative powers if not moderated.


Here is a good rotuine for you but be sure to read my sticky post above for more info on techique, micro loading, intensifiers, and cycing of training effort. Also read my post on deadlifting.

MONDAY
warm up on the tread mill for 5 minutes.

Rest about 2 minutes between stes unless I say otherwise.

Be sure to do do a warm up set or two before the first exercise of each body part. DON'T get carried away with warm ups.
Work hard ..until you cannot do another rep in good form.
be sure to practise progression in weights used in small and then tiny increments. YOU MUST buy some tiny plates www.fractionalplates.com
Train in cycles as I have mentioned.

1. Incline bench press. 2 working sets of 6- 8
You can use a barbell in a bench set at 30 degrees or you can use the Hammer incline bench press.
2. Decline bench press or hammer decline bench press or machine dips with elbows flaired out to sides. 2 sets of 6-8. Take a medium grip on the benches...that is when the bar touches your chest your upper arm should be straight up and down. This gives the best biomechanics for muscle building. In the dip use a medium to narrow grip and flair the elbows outward but don't get carried away with this.
3. Toe presses in a leg press machine. 3-4 sest of 10-15 reps. Reduce the weight used for each successive set. rest only 90 seconds between sets. Push very hard and fight for the last cm . All the way up and all the way down in a controlled way. Rest pause reps after going to failure. THE PAIN!

4. One of the following ...lying tricep extensions with an E-Z curl bar, machine dips with a narrow grip and elbows close to body or close grip bench presses with a 15 inch grip. 3 sets of 8

WEDNESDAY.

1. Squats. ..check out my posts on technique and the sticky. 3 sets of 10 after 2-3 warm ups. Rest 4 minutes between sets.
2. Stiff leg deadlifts with straps 2 sets of 10 after one warm up. Be darn sure to read my post on deadlifting! rest 3-4 minutes between sets.
3. Hyperextensions holding a weight or with a barbell on your neck/traps 1 set of 10-12
4. Shrugs with a barbell, dumbells or machine 2 sets of 10. use starps.

FRIDAY

1. Pulldowns with a shoulder width barbell curl grip(palms facing you) use straps when you start to use heavy weight. 2 sets of 8-10
2. Some type of row 1-2 sets of 8-10 Be sure to arch the low back as you pull and try to hold the weight in the fully contracted position for a second. Rows are done to work the upper mid back muscle as much as the lats. They also strongly work the rear delts. I like dumbell rows with one knee and hand on the side of a bench..and also the hammer iso-lateral row.
3. Overhead press with a barbell and in a bench set at 80 degrees and pressing to the front. OR... some type of machine overhead press, hammer is good. 3 sets of 6-8. This exercise will work the entire shoulder complex and the triceps well. I find that lower reps of about 6 work best for weight progression in this exercise.
4. Barbell curls 3 sets of 8-10. I like to do rest pause reps after going to failure...see my sticky.

TUESDAY & SATURDAY you can do abbs and some cardio. OR...you can do the abbs on one of your weight training days. If you work them hard you only need to train them once per week but few people can handle this reduction in abb traing MENTALLY.

You can do some mild cardio on THURSDAYS too if you like but if gains are really hard to come by then reduce the cardio. Some people have to eliminate cardio in order to make good gains. You can always increase the cardio after you have gotten a measure of mass and strength.

ABBS.. Try hanging knee ups from a bar. Try to curl the lower torso up towards the chest with bent knees. 2 sets of as many as you can do.
Cruches with a rolled bath towel under your low back for a better pre stretch and a better contraction. 2 sets of 10-20. Use weight when you can do more than 20. Swiss ball crunches are great too.

CARDIO...I find the best exercise for burning calories and working the aerobic system WITHOUT eating up muscle tissue is steep incline walking at a good clip on a tread mill. Be sure to watch TV or you will go buggy.

NOTE: Nandi12, Mod at cuttingedgemuscle.com ,has posted proof that whey protein taken prior to cardio(like 30 minutes) strongly helps to preserve muscle tissue. The same WAS NOT seen with a pre- cardio meal of regular protein or a pre meal of carbs.
Good luck and train hard.

AND as I have said be darn sure to get plenty of sleep and plenty of good food. Whey protein, a good multi vitimin with perhaps extra vit C and E is all you need for supplements. If you are not eating plenty of Tuna , Salmon or Sardines then I would get some flax seed oil or a combo omega 3/6 oil like Udo's Choice oil. Seriuosly limit saturated fats and junk food.

RG

 

[SteelWeaver]

Hey teirrah! Slow progress in squats? Boy can I relate! It tool me forever and ever to get to where I am now, which is pretty much nowhere compared to most here. For the first time in my life I'm gaining like I've always heard other people gain, and it's all to do with the simplified leg routine - squats, about 5 sets, increasing weight on each set, all for 5 reps, explosive, about once or twice a week, not always to failure, and front squats the same, once or twice a week - for a total of squatting 2-3 times a week. Then with cleans and snatches as well. Ont the day I work out alone I do some SLDL's or GM's or full deads, and some pull throughs or glute ham raises, or leg curls, as well as chest and back work. Still rying to figure out how to shortenthis session, but my bench has gone up a fair bit too with the lowered volume.

I know your trainer works you really really hard, which is wonderful for testing mental strength, but as I've discovered, doesn't do much for physical strength. Too much volume and too much failure work and too much isolation work = no gains.

Good luck!