slow progress in squats?

[Realgains]

Well....for the record...I agree with dropping the leg press on squar days but would insist on keeping the hacks in there as I dont see them as an isolation movement at all.

Whn my quats stall, it is usally on of the three things:

1 - lack of strength in lumbars
2 - lack of flexibility in hips
3 - lack of rest or food.

Corn....the hacks will not help her and they are over kill IMHO although I agree they are not totally an isolation movement.

We have to remember that most people cannot do much volume, unless on gear, as they have a very limited recovery potential.


Three heavy work sets of squats is more than enough for quads if done correctly and with enough intensity. I am telling you that very few people want to do legs with me because after 3 sets of all out squats they can barely walk let alone think about doing more quad work.

Some people can grow well on a moderate to high volume while natural but these poeple are few and far between indeed.

SO>>>> most people always need to keep things very basic focusing ALL their efforts into the BIG movements. They also need to do low to lowish volume and have plenty of days off weight training each week. They need to train very hard but in cycles. The focus MUST be on the big basic compound movements either solely or almost so with a primary goal to increase weights used in strict form in small and then tiny increments on a weekly or biweekly basis. When even tiny weight progression becomes impossible, inspite of lowering the reps a little and perhaps dropping a work set, they need to take 10 days off and then come back and start another cycle with about 90% of their previous bests for reps and then slowly work up to and past their previous best.

When she can deep squat 200 lbs 10 times then she can start to think about adding hacks( but not when squatting very hard) for more leg sweep etc. Up until that time she needs to focus every bit of her efforts into squats alone and THEN good gains in size shape and strength will have to come.

As a side....I attended a Tom Platz seminar years ago and he said that he could count how many times on one hand he did anything besides deep squats for his Quads, until he was squatting over 400 pounds for sets of 15-20 reps. He also said that nothing he ever did added much mass to his quads besides squats and leg presses and that he ONLY did leg extensions and hacks "to help bring out that last 5% of detail and sweep to the thigh beofre a show. In the off season Tom ONLY SQUATED for his quads right up to the time he retired, in an effort to increase his leg and overall body size and strength.

For those that don't know about Tom Platz let me tell you that he had FREAKY thighs and could deep high bar squat over 600 pounds 20 times!!!! One of his favorite sayings was "half squats, half legs"

Problem is almost everyone reads and almost copies routines they see in the glossy magazines not fully understanding how important good genetics and steroid use is to the success of these routines.

The BS glossy Mags have damaged bodybuilding and NOT helped it at all....so people turn to steroid because they cannot make good progress with volume workouts done 5 and 6 days per week.

I would say that most people need to leave the leg extensions and hacks to contest prep so as to help bring out a little more detail or improve on the lateral sweep of the quad etc

Corn, you already have good legs and the addition of hacks probably help you a bit with leg sweep etc but I bet you built the vast majority of your mass and shape with heavy squats and leg presses.

Points to consider........
#1. You probably have better genetics than most allowing you to get away with higher volume than the typical trainee(90% of trainees)
#2. You probably reduce volume when really working squats hard.
#3. You probably reduce volume while training without gear
#4. You most likely built the majority of your quad mass, strength and shape with squats and leg presses.

#5. FEW people can gain progressively, for any length of time, doing more than a few very hard sets per body part, and especially for quad work and in various deadlifts, unless they are on steroids.
#6. FEW people can train more frequently than three days per week on a three way split and make good gains in strength and mass unless on steroids.
#7. The glossy magazines of today, for the most part, offer okay advice to steroid users and or those that are genetically NOT typical (perhaps 5% of the general public) They offer AMLOST ZERO good advice for the genetically typical natural trainee( probably at least 90% of the general public)

Corn I know you are fully aware of the above....I say it for those that are reading and do not have a good grasp on proper natural training.

Ladies always remember that Lenda Murray, J. Bermann and the like are not only genetically blessed but they also take A LOT of steroid and growth hormone so they can train any way they like and make good gains.



RG


RG

 

[The Shadow]

Corn....the hacks will not help her and they are over kill IMHO although I agree they are not totally an isolation movement.

...that is like saying that close grips benchs will not help boost your regular bench....they are similar enough that there would be a lot of carry over....I am referring to hacks on a 60 degree press....not 45....if you raise the bottom of the platform it is identical to the thigh/calf angle at the bottom of a squat.

She is doing 3 all out sets anyway and not seeing results...keep the squats and hacks and maybe even reverse the order...I would bet 100 points of Karma is she were to switch the routine to hacks, squats, stiffdeads and lunges - she would progress.

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

How is your 'core'? Are your abs and low back strong? What about your hip flexors?[/url]

I think this is totally key to bringing up your squat #s... strenthen your core & the rest will follow. Strong ABS are so key to heavy squats!!!

 

[wilson6]

Periodization is the key to building strength. Too heavy, same routine, too often is the most common problem regardless of what you do or don't do exercise wise. Recovery is the key, juice or no juice.

I dropped SLD's years ago and that helped my squat considerably. I was doing too much for lower back. Now I do pull throughs, back extensions (roman chair), and weighted leg raises on the platform with my legs spread wide (the one Louie designed years ago to rehab his back).

I only use Romanian DLs with my clients once every two weeks and have them perform ball squats with dumbbells as part of their routine for balance and stability in place of hacks.

Most of the women I work with start out barely being able to get out of the hole with the bar and in about 4 - 6 months they are squatting 115 - 185 for reps off the 11" box.

W6

 

[spatts]

I do SLD's about once a month max, and I do them as accessory work for the hamstring stretch. Core work, as Wilson suggested, along with learning proper form, which Wilson ALSO suggested (lol), have been the ticket to improving my squat.

I do not use a linear periodization, but a periodization based on how I "feel." It works much better for me. I may not gain 5 pounds every week on a lift, but I will gain nothing for 2-3 and then 20 pounds all at once. Detail are in the sig.

I feel I have gotten the MOST carry over from goodmornings.

 

[RottenWillow]

Generally speaking at what depth do the glutes really begin to contract? If a person stops at, let's say, one inch above parallel do we avoid a lot of glute contraction? And if we do stop the descent that high is it true that we wont be working the quads as thoroughly?

Spatts what does the "linear" qualifier mean? Does that just mean a fixed schedule for training heavier, then lighter?

 

[spatts]

Yes. I don't use a chart or plan my weight. I always shoot for max strain..sometimes that's a PR sometimes it's not. The days it's not, my body probably wasn't up for it, so I don't push it. I find it safer and more effective. Like I said, there's more about it in the link in my sig.

The deeper you go in a squat, the more hamstring is recruited, which will hit the glutes harder too.

 

[Realgains]

...that is like saying that close grips benchs will not help boost your regular bench....they are similar enough that there would be a lot of carry over....I am referring to hacks on a 60 degree press....not 45....if you raise the bottom of the platform it is identical to the thigh/calf angle at the bottom of a squat.

She is doing 3 all out sets anyway and not seeing results...keep the squats and hacks and maybe even reverse the order...I would bet 100 points of Karma is she were to switch the routine to hacks, squats, stiffdeads and lunges - she would progress.

I disagree......I don't think you can compair hacks for legs and quad strength with close grip benches for triceps and bench strength.
Hacks work the thighs less than squats and work NO assiatnce muscle groups, but close grip benches work the triceps harder than bench pressing. Close grips are a tricep exercise used to build big triceps and a big bench press. The hacks are not building up the weak link muscle for squats. The weak link in squats are either simply the quads or sometimes the low back. The best assistance exercise for the squat is some form of deadlift IMHO and not more inferior quad work.

She needs to do the squats right and with intensity and with weight progression. She needs to cycle her efforts as well as I mentioned.

Doing MORE volume is NOT going to help most people get bigger legs or a better squat but it will cause most people to over train and see no results. If a person is not gaining on three hard sets of squats then doing more volume isn't going to correct the problem. Let say she is doing the squats properly and very hard progressively......she is not gaining because she is not recuperating and doing more volume will make things worse.

This is what I think she shoud do....take 10 days off now. Then come back with about 90% of her previous bests for reps and slowly work her way up to and beyond her previous bests....starting easy and going to very hard over the weeks. Focus on adding small and then tiny bits of weight to the bar on a weekly or biweekly basis. When further weight progress stalls she can either reduce the reps or take another lay off at this time. You can keep adding a couple pounds to the bar for quite a long time and sometimes for months on end if you have" all your ducks in a row". Just do 3 working sets of squats and 2-3 working sets of deadlifts. Incorporate regular deads from time to time.

It has been my experience that most natural trainees can do very little hard work and recuperate . Doing more volume usually results in a reduction of training intensity and too much drain on energy reserves that should be saved for recuperation.

I would bet my house that she will get more quad and general body developement from just three sets of properly done squats than from squats plus hacks plus lunges.

I also do not think that lunges are very effective in increasing leg mass and strength at all.

If she wanted to do more volume then I would recommend just 2 working sets of squats then after a 4 minutes rest she could do a very hard slow set of leg extensions for 12 reps, holding the weight at the top for a second on each rep, followed by a very hard set of deep leg presses in a pre -exhaust super set fashion or with no more than a minute rest between leg extensions and leg press. I have done this quad workout and believe me if done right it is extremely effective and NO other exercises or sets for the quads are needed.

My .02 after training natural bodybuilders and hockey players with typical genetics (perhaps 90% of the general public).

RG

RG

 

[spatts]

You never see a powerlifter doing lunges, extensions, leg presses (except Ed Coan and I seriously doubt that was the ticket to his success).

I guess I'd like to know what's more important to Teirrah. If she wants a bigger squat, she can throw about 1/2 this advice out.

 

[witkowsd]

This seems to be very helpful for me since I am lacking any muscles in my legs - do you see any benefit in doing step-ups? Leg Curls?