Schools Enable dress codes

[Robert Jan]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/09/09/wear.this.ap/index.html

Schools, offices button down dress codes
Thursday, September 9, 2004 Posted: 12:32 PM EDT (1632 GMT)




CHICAGO (AP) -- It's the latest trend in fall fashion: Workers and students who dress down or show too much skin are being told to button up.

Tired of staff members who they see as pushing the limits of professionalism and good taste, a growing number of employers are issuing lengthy dress codes, some with photos to illustrate the do's and don'ts. More schools also are getting stricter about student attire.

M.J. Dean, who's starting his senior year Thursday at the private Cape Cod Academy in Osterville, Massachusetts, discovered new rules at his school when he received the updated student handbook this summer. Among the new guidelines: no pants with side pockets, including popular cargo pants, or T-shirts with writing on them -- and "no tight or excessively loose clothing."

"This very strict new dress code is, quite honestly, ridiculous," says the 17-year-old student body vice president. "You can't really represent yourself the way you'd like."

Likewise, some employees think they should be trusted to use good judgment about their clothes. Joe D'Adamo, associate creative director at Chicago ad agency LKH&S, usually wears jeans, a T-shirt and sneakers to work, and dresses up when he sees clients.

He says a specific dress code would be "irritating" -- but that hasn't stopped bosses at some companies.

Effective this week, Target Corp. has a new, 20-page dress code for employees at its Minneapolis headquarters. Men must now wear a sport coat or tie if they leave their usual work area. Women are required to wear a jacket over any sleeveless blouse; sweater sets are among the other options.

The staff at G.S. Schwartz & Co., a New York investor and public relations firm, also received a recent e-mail memo asking them to bump up their apparel choices "at least one more notch."

"For example," the memo read, "we would prefer that properly fitting sweaters be worn with a collared shirt underneath. Certainly, khakis should be neat and clean ...

"Shaving regularly also is a good idea," the memo suggested, "for either sex."

Rachel Honig Peters, a senior vice president at the company, says the e-mail was sent after company officials noticed their clients dressing up more.

Elsewhere, business owners in the service industry say customer complaints are driving them to put tougher dress codes in place.

That was the case for Erika Mangrum, owner of the Iatria Spa and Health Center in Raleigh, North Carolina. She recalls sending one employee home to change after she came to work wearing a cropped Playboy T-shirt that showed her stomach and a navel ring.

"This is really tough stuff," says Mangrum, who understands how frustrating dress codes can be for employees. Mangrum herself once got in trouble, more than a decade ago, for not wearing panty hose when she worked at a major telecommunications firm.

Now, she's had to institute a dress code at her own company _ "no shorts, no denim, no flip-flops." And she's wondering if she should add rules about piercings.

"How far can and should a company go? We're wrestling with that," Mangrum says. "And frankly, we don't have an answer."

The good news, say those who monitor trends, is that modesty and more formal attire are gaining favor even with teens and 20somethings. Many employers say that young workers are the most frequent dress code offenders.

Tina Wells, the 20something CEO of Buzz Marketing, says anxiousness over the economy, the war in Iraq and the upcoming election have created a mood that's more "focused and serious."

"Besides, how much lower could low-rise jeans get?" quips Wells, whose New Jersey firm compiles feedback from teen advisers.

In the end, Thomas Evans, headmaster at Cape Cod Academy, says he'd rather not have to police student attire. But he says administrators at the K-12 school had little choice after parents of younger students complained about some older students' clothing.

Much the same has happened at schools elsewhere, from Texas to Kansas and Illinois.

In Chicago, for instance, strict dress codes -- and uniforms -- are a matter of safety, since the way a student wears a pant leg, a bracelet or a hat can indicate a gang affiliation.

And even Dean, the student body vice president at Cape Cod, acknowledges that a few students at his school dressed inappropriately last year -- "skankily," he says, "if that's a word."

He just doesn't think everyone should be punished over the actions of a few. So he and other students plan to meet with their headmaster to see if he'll loosen the dress code.

Asked what he thinks their chances are, he sighs: "Slim to none."

 

[Y_lifter]

Dude, I've seen 14-18 yr old school girls pushing the envelope on skank attire
every day on my way to work.. And if the Teachers are setting a bad example, why in the hell should the kids comply with wearing decent attire ?

I think we all know kids need to be individuals, but when that 15 yr old boy can't concentrate on what the teacher is saying because he's fixated on some girls cleavage or ass cheeks in the class, or the teachers thighs, there's a problem IMO..

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

yay. government schools telling parents how to dress their kids.

 

[danielson]

If you are oing to learn in a collective environment you need that environment to be conduitive to learning, just like Ylifter said

Good call on the uniform, they havent created a uniform or removed identity, merely set criteria as to what is unnacceptable. Sad for the guys of the school who could look at hookers/students all days but better for learning

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

If you are oing to learn in a collective environment you need that environment to be conduitive to learning, just like Ylifter said

Good call on the uniform, they havent created a uniform or removed identity, merely set criteria as to what is unnacceptable. Sad for the guys of the school who could look at hookers/students all days but better for learning

yay government telling parents how to dress their kids.

Collective environment? WTF? Collective environment is nothing more than a group of individuals...no special rights or privileges are conferred on a "collective"; this is not the USSR.

 

[danielson]

yay government telling parents how to dress their kids.

Collective environment? WTF? Collective environment is nothing more than a group of individuals...no special rights or privileges are conferred on a "collective"; this is not the USSR.

yes its a group of individuals, but you have to remember that they are there for the purpose of learning. If you have girls dressed up like skanks, some boys will be unable to concentrate, at that age its understandable

You have to be practical if they are going to get the chance to be educated. The other option is to segregate based on sex but i think thats unacceptable, this is a decent solution to a problem of public education. Granted, government education is quite often flawed but a large amount of parents neither have the finances or inclination to educate their children on their own, and I'd rather have a populace with a shred of intelligence

 

[Mr. dB]

yay government telling parents how to dress their kids.

What difference does it make if it's public schools or private ones? Dress codes are a form of discipline

 

[jenscats5]

We had uniforms when I was in high school for the girls & a dress code for the boys....... frankly it made my life easier in the morning cuz I could sleep later & didn't have to choose what to wear.......sleeping later was more important to me......

When my office was closing here in DE & moving to NJ, they instituted a new dress code: No more casual Fridays, ie jeans & sneakers; shirts under sweaters at all times, pantyhose required, no facial piercings other than ears, if you wear a shirt (women) w/o a collar, you must wear a suit jacket -- otherwise, professional dress at all times as the management felt that people acted more professionally if dressed that way......

I never agreed with that myself. IMO if you are unprofessional you will be so no matter what you wear.....

But in the past, we did have some people wear very inappropriate clothing: pantyhose with very obvious holes in them, torn clothing, waaaaay too tight clothes, etc.....

 

[curling]

I use to think school uniforms were a bad idea. But I am coming around to thinking it is a good one. It take income levels of kids out of play where kids can focus on learning and not showing off who got the nicest threads. Also it is hard to concentrate on stupid school work when you are checking out some chicks abs(I am a stomach man) in class.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

What difference does it make if it's public schools or private ones? Dress codes are a form of discipline

Clearly the difference between public and private schools needs no explanation; however, for the intransigent or merely stupid, the difference is that a private school is administered through the direct appointment of faculty and staff by the users of the services, whereas a public school is governed by bureaucrats disconnected from (and unaccountable to) from the parents they serve.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

yes its a group of individuals, but you have to remember that they are there for the purpose of learning. If you have girls dressed up like skanks, some boys will be unable to concentrate, at that age its understandable

They are also there without a choice. So the concept of "individual rights" has been removed from the discussion via the concept of compulsory education. Once one accepts the removal of the user's choice, then really, anything follows.

Why not chain the kids to the desk? the logic is the same.

You have to be practical if they are going to get the chance to be educated. The other option is to segregate based on sex but i think thats unacceptable, this is a decent solution to a problem of public education.

Segregating by sex is bad but controlling dress is OK? they are the same principle. You're controlling the group at the expense of the individual...

Granted, government education is quite often flawed but a large amount of parents neither have the finances or inclination to educate their children on their own, and I'd rather have a populace with a shred of intelligence

I'd rather leave the decision about the kid's education to the kid's parents.

People have the money for the taxes that finance education. Stop the taxes and they have the money for education.....in the US, private schools are often cheaper per pupil than their government counterparts.

Open education to a truly free market and the cost will plummet.

 

[jenscats5]

I use to think school uniforms were a bad idea. But I am coming around to thinking it is a good one. It take income levels of kids out of play where kids can focus on learning and not showing off who got the nicest threads. Also it is hard to concentrate on stupid school work when you are checking out some chicks abs(I am a stomach man) in class.

Actually when I wore school uniforms in high school -- the income level was still a very large factor as the focus shifted from the clothing to shoes & purses..... you were an outcast & bullied if you did not carry a Gucci or above handbag or if you didn't wear Gucci or Prada shoes.....

Personally, I could care less about Gucci, etc so needless to say I was made fun of a lot...... So, the showing off, etc was still there but focused on other things....

 

[Y_lifter]

This isn't about public vs: private education IMO.
It's about conforming to an "Acceptable Standard of Behavior and Dress"..

Chaining kids to desks is silly and not conducive to enhancing the education experience.

Wearing certain dress causing obvious disruption to the classroom does ?

It's obvious to me seeing both sides of the educational system(private/public)
that one has parental involvement and voluntary(for the most part) compliance with
stated policy. And the other does not.

Public Schools can't easily kick a child out for minor repeated infractions, and they don't seem to want to enforce the policies they HAVE, so why make more ?
Start enforcing the dress codes that School systems ALL have in place by sending the child home when they come in dressed inappropriately.

It would only take 1 or 2 times for Mommy Dearest being called into the school in the morning from her job at Wal Mart to pick up suzy skank to learn the lesson I think..

Acceptable behavior and dress is something children need to understand because as they grow older, they will be expected to comply with these issues everywhere they go..

At work we expect we can't come in wearing a bathing suit in an office environment.
We should expect our children to follow the same rules of decency at their jobs, school.

Public Schools.... Enforce the policies you have in place before making more..

 

[manny78]

Nothing new here. We had dress codes back in high school. No uniform but strict regulations on what was ok and not. That was back in the days of green hair...

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

This isn't about public vs: private education IMO.
It's about conforming to an "Acceptable Standard of Behavior and Dress"..

Chaining kids to desks is silly and not conducive to enhancing the education experience.

Wearing certain dress causing obvious disruption to the classroom does ?

Here we get to the crux of the problem: Other people (ie bureaucrats) are determining what IS and what IS NOT conducive to an educational experience, and then forcing that on everyone. The argument itself is not about public or private schools; note that private schools, however, do not force that behavior on everyone, as withdrawal is an option.

It's obvious to me seeing both sides of the educational system(private/public)
that one has parental involvement and voluntary(for the most part) compliance with
stated policy. And the other does not.

One is subject to market forces, one is not.

Public Schools can't easily kick a child out for minor repeated infractions, and they don't seem to want to enforce the policies they HAVE, so why make more ?
Start enforcing the dress codes that School systems ALL have in place by sending the child home when they come in dressed inappropriately.

Except that who is a bureaucrat to determine what is appropriate for someone else's child?

It would only take 1 or 2 times for Mommy Dearest being called into the school in the morning from her job at Wal Mart to pick up suzy skank to learn the lesson I think..

Maybe Mommy Dearest is OK with it. Doesn't that count for something?

Acceptable behavior and dress is something children need to understand because as they grow older, they will be expected to comply with these issues everywhere they go..

At work we expect we can't come in wearing a bathing suit in an office environment.
We should expect our children to follow the same rules of decency at their jobs, school.

School is not a job. You can quit your job.

Public Schools.... Enforce the policies you have in place before making more..

Close em down.

 

[HumorMe]

Private schools around here have dress codes, why shouldn't public schools have them?

Personally, I was never a big fan of dress codes but the more I see and hear what kids nowadays wear to school, I am favoring it. My wife is a teacher and she says there needs to be a dress code installed for the schools around here.

They already make teachers conform to them so why not the kids? A lot of wild things go through the heads of junior high kids and certainly do not need Suzie Skank pushing them over the edge.

Matt, you said maybe the girls mother is comfortable with her daughte/son wearing clothing unacceptable for school age kids. Would you let your child dress like that? I know I wouldn't.

 

[Synpax]

Hmm. I agree, close them down. I have come to dislike the entire educational process of sitting a bunch of kids in the room for X hours under instruction, etc. Public, private, etc., it stifles the child's creativity, is anti-individualized, and reduces everything to the least common denominator - except when it doesn't and leaves some kids behind.

Either AI software that works with a child one on one and can adjust to the child's pace and interest or, even better, a parent, is the ideal means of education.

But insofar as schools are not going to be closed down, I do support a dress code for Public Schools. As a taxpayer and voter, I am an owner of the school system and there is nothing wrong with exercising these rights insofar as they do not interefere with anyone's constitutional right (like not being able to express their religion).

Yes, it's a messy, sticky argument, but until Matt and I figure a way to shut the school system down, I support double-knit and dickies for all. (although I'd really be partial to Star Trek-style uniforms).

PS - I wear UA and Nike Drifit Compression to my office. Har har.

 

[Mr. dB]

Clearly the difference between public and private schools needs no explanation; however, for the intransigent or merely stupid, the difference is that a private school is administered through the direct appointment of faculty and staff by the users of the services, whereas a public school is governed by bureaucrats disconnected from (and unaccountable to) from the parents they serve.

Do you work for Microsoft Support?

The point of my question is -- what difference is there between public and private schools, with respect to the appropriateness of dress codes? Why can't public schools have discipline too?

 

[Y_lifter]

Matt, I can't argue with your obvious mission and calling to shut down public education and privatize it.. Although I understand the issues you raise and agree with many, I also know that public education is here to stay both Primary and Secondary
schools for many average people..

The market forces that come to bear on private schools have little to do with policies or lack of. More likely it's the positive issues of smaller class size and better facilities that makes the difference.

I'm not sure if I read into your posts the assertion that children should not be required to attend school by the goverment. Yes, Kids can't quit school until usually 15-16
But I would understand why the Goverment would not allow us to drive as fast as we wanted through neighborhoods. Yes, we can and do, as long as we are willing to accept the consequences of doing so.

Civil and Goverment regulations have a place controlling what we do. It's called society, and its been around for thousands of years.
(My Moderate side coming out I guess)

I disagree that Parents (95% of them at least) know more about what works for kids and teaching(or care) in general than do School Administrators.

Poor Analogy would be Why go to see a Lawyer about legal matters? You should know what's best for you. Sure you can represent yourself and do a good or poor job. As the mom can continue to send suzy to school as she feels fit against policy until the child is expelled and she is then free to home school her in the nude,
or get a second job for private school where the dress code will be more strict..

 

[danielson]

They are also there without a choice. So the concept of "individual rights" has been removed from the discussion via the concept of compulsory education. Once one accepts the removal of the user's choice, then really, anything follows.

Why not chain the kids to the desk? the logic is the same.
[/b]

Using the same logic if a child chooses to wear a sock over his nether reigons or a girl wants to wear tassles and a thong this is acceptable because it is their right, and damn the rest of the class.
Children are not old enough to make responsible descisions for themselves, if they were, tobacco and alcohol as well as other freedoms would be made accessible to them

Segregating by sex is bad but controlling dress is OK? they are the same principle. You're controlling the group at the expense of the individual...[/b]

Again what would you suggest, let a child bend rules so he cn express his indiviuality, or still let them dress themselves, just not in a manner which is deemed offensive. Yes, they will not be able to dress in an inappropriate manner but i doubt it is at their expense...certain types of clothes are not allowed for insurance reasons during science or Physical ed(health and saftey reasons), is that controlling them?

I'd rather leave the decision about the kid's education to the kid's parents.

People have the money for the taxes that finance education. Stop the taxes and they have the money for education.....in the US, private schools are often cheaper per pupil than their government counterparts.

Open education to a truly free market and the cost will plummet.

Except a childs parents dont necessarily have te kids interests a heart...what if they decide they want their child to stay at home all day, he/she has no grasp of education and as a result cannot hold down anythig but a low end job, if that? Imagine that on a national scale, what wouldn that do to poverty and crime on a national level. It would also create more of a 2-tier system where the rich kids get a good education and stay rich, and the poor kids be damned. 1 persons taxes (the proportion allotted to education) alone are not enough to fund an education in a private school, and its incicievable of a way for them to pay for their kids schooling.

You ALWAYS have the option to home school your child. As for open education in the free market....all private schools are profit making schools. They all charge too much, and have many different investments. Public schools left open for private running have all cut back on essentials to generate more profit, that is the nature of a free market when it is tryin to do something altruistic. It can;t. I agree, having experienced both types of schools, private schools are by far superior, but it is impossible to school evey child in this manner.

A tax break for those who privately educate is something i could potentially support

 

[Y_lifter]

the difference is that a private school is administered through the direct appointment of faculty and staff by the users of the services, whereas a public school is governed by bureaucrats disconnected from (and unaccountable to) from the parents they serve.

I did not appoint the faculty and staff in any of the private schools my child has attended.. I did not set policy.. I did have input to that policy, as I do at public school thru the school board.

If I did not like the policy at the private school, I could, and did move my child to another school at my expense. Same as I can with public school.

If enough parents at Private OR Public Schools speak up and get involved,
bad policy or faculty will be removed. Both are difficult but I've seen it happen on both sides.. Unions or not

 

[velvett]

I'm pro school uniform for children (whether it be a strict guideline or actual uniforms) and a list of acceptable and unacceptable clothing for the staff.

One should know what appropriate dress is but that is assuming too much of many adults these days.

For women in schools there is a fine line between dressing sexy professional and trashy. For men in schools there's a fine line between causal sporty and hip hop disheveled, slob. If you need a lesson to know what side of that line you are on - SO BE IT - you are setting an example for children (even if they won't follow it) and if that doesn’t matter to you have a little self-respect as to how you present yourself to the world.

I'm would be embarrassed to be the mother of some of these kids and how they dress - how their parents let them dress. (Don't tell me 10/12 year olds are buying their own clothing.)

 

[velvett]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/09/09/wear.this.ap/index.html

That was the case for Erika Mangrum, owner of the Iatria Spa and Health Center in Raleigh, North Carolina. She recalls sending one employee home to change after she came to work wearing a cropped Playboy T-shirt that showed her stomach and a navel ring.

That's because no one bothered to point out that trashy clothes are not appropriate for a work environment. Maybe if more kids were sent home from school for dressing inapropriately they and their parents would get the message.

"This is really tough stuff," says Mangrum, who understands how frustrating dress codes can be for employees. Mangrum herself once got in trouble, more than a decade ago, for not wearing panty hose when she worked at a major telecommunications firm.

Now, she's had to institute a dress code at her own company _ "no shorts, no denim, no flip-flops." And she's wondering if she should add rules about piercings.

"How far can and should a company go? We're wrestling with that," Mangrum says. "And frankly, we don't have an answer."

How far?
If you don't like the dress code set forth by your employer you can go find another job.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Matt, you said maybe the girls mother is comfortable with her daughte/son wearing clothing unacceptable for school age kids. Would you let your child dress like that? I know I wouldn't.

Suppose I did. Why should you or any other parent, teacher or bureaucrat be able to override that?

Who should really decide what is best for the child? Mom? or teacher?

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Do you work for Microsoft Support?

The point of my question is -- what difference is there between public and private schools, with respect to the appropriateness of dress codes? Why can't public schools have discipline too?

Government schools rely on top down heavy handedness that is unresponsive to the needs of the attendees.

If private schools did this, they would go out of business.

All you need to remember is "out of business". It is where government schooling would go with the quickness if markets were opened up, and it is only being kept here through legislative shenanigans.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Using the same logic if a child chooses to wear a sock over his nether reigons or a girl wants to wear tassles and a thong this is acceptable because it is their right, and damn the rest of the class.
Children are not old enough to make responsible descisions for themselves, if they were, tobacco and alcohol as well as other freedoms would be made accessible to them

Individual rights? Or socialism. Which is a better way of life? There is no compromise. It is like food compromising with poison.

Again what would you suggest, let a child bend rules so he cn express his indiviuality, or still let them dress themselves, just not in a manner which is deemed offensive. Yes, they will not be able to dress in an inappropriate manner but i doubt it is at their expense...certain types of clothes are not allowed for insurance reasons during science or Physical ed(health and saftey reasons), is that controlling them?

Disband government education.

Except a childs parents dont necessarily have te kids interests a heart...what if they decide they want their child to stay at home all day, he/she has no grasp of education and as a result cannot hold down anythig but a low end job, if that? Imagine that on a national scale, what wouldn that do to poverty and crime on a national level. It would also create more of a 2-tier system where the rich kids get a good education and stay rich, and the poor kids be damned. 1 persons taxes (the proportion allotted to education) alone are not enough to fund an education in a private school, and its incicievable of a way for them to pay for their kids schooling.

It is not the job of the state to tell people how to parent. If you think it is, North Korea needs people. Go reproduce there.

You ALWAYS have the option to home school your child. As for open education in the free market....all private schools are profit making schools. They all charge too much, and have many different investments. Public schools left open for private running have all cut back on essentials to generate more profit, that is the nature of a free market when it is tryin to do something altruistic. It can;t. I agree, having experienced both types of schools, private schools are by far superior, but it is impossible to school evey child in this manner.

A tax break for those who privately educate is something i could potentially support

In the US, the majority of private schools are cheaper per child than their government counterparts.

Your last sentence shows there is hope for you yet.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I did not appoint the faculty and staff in any of the private schools my child has attended.. I did not set policy.. I did have input to that policy, as I do at public school thru the school board.

If I did not like the policy at the private school, I could, and did move my child to another school at my expense. Same as I can with public school.

If enough parents at Private OR Public Schools speak up and get involved,
bad policy or faculty will be removed. Both are difficult but I've seen it happen on both sides.. Unions or not

New York City has 72000 teachers. In 2002, three of them were dismissed for incompetence.

Your individual experiences are interesting, but compared to a mountain of contrary evidence, remain exactly that.

apply market forces and products will improve. Just like in everything else not government run.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

I'm pro school uniform for children (whether it be a strict guideline or actual uniforms) and a list of acceptable and unacceptable clothing for the staff.

I saw some awesome videos of this. They were dated, yet informative. The video was a little bit grainy, but entertaining. The only problem was that the narrator was a little bit tough to understand, because he was speaking in German .

One should know what appropriate dress is but that is assuming too much of many adults these days.

Big Brother to the rescue, right?

For women in schools there is a fine line between dressing sexy professional and trashy. For men in schools there's a fine line between causal sporty and hip hop disheveled, slob. If you need a lesson to know what side of that line you are on - SO BE IT - you are setting an example for children (even if they won't follow it) and if that doesn’t matter to you have a little self-respect as to how you present yourself to the world.

I'm would be embarrassed to be the mother of some of these kids and how they dress - how their parents let them dress. (Don't tell me 10/12 year olds are buying their own clothing.)

Maybe other moms are OK with it. Why shall you be the one to tell them your parenting style would be superior?

 

[velvett]

Who should really decide what is best for the child? Mom? or teacher?

That's a loaded question.

Depends on the mother. Many parents are too busy or self-centered to even realize that there are choices to be made in the interest of their children.

Ultimately teachers will never decide what is best for a child but it doesn't mean they can't set an example.

 

[Y_lifter]

New York City has 72000 teachers. In 2002, three of them were dismissed for incompetence.

Your individual experiences are interesting, but compared to a mountain of contrary evidence, remain exactly that.

apply market forces and products will improve. Just like in everything else not government run.

My assertion as to why a larger percentage of teachers weren't terminated
in your example Matt, logically assuming there is a larger percentage,
would be:

Enough people complained about the 3 teachers that were terminated to the right people.

No Parents cared to take the effort to complain to the correct people about any others.

As to Goverment dictating to parents how to RAISE their Children..
They aren't IMO, but they are saying "Our Facility has these dress and behavior policies, if you wish to be be part of it please comply.
If not, start up your own private skank school"

No different from the goverment saying "You're child can't tag walls without consequences" even if the parent is an ex gang member.

 

[velvett]

I saw some awesome videos of this. They were dated, yet informative. The video was a little bit grainy, but entertaining. The only problem was that the narrator was a little bit tough to understand, because he was speaking in German .


Maybe other moms are OK with it. Why shall you be the one to tell them your parenting style would be superior?

You were watching George Carlin last night too?

My parenting style - LOL - I'm too much on a snob to involve myself in other people's parenting. (Just judge from the sidelines like all the other opinionated ninnies.)

I'm not a parent so I can't preach but I do dress myself for work everyday and I do see the little trampola grade scholars in my "hood" and I'm horrified.

Trashy kid will just grow up to be a trashy adult. It's that whole apple/tree thing and that's just sad. Too bad you can't teach kids to rise above their parents' disfunctions.

 

[HumorMe]

Suppose I did. Why should you or any other parent, teacher or bureaucrat be able to override that?

Who should really decide what is best for the child? Mom? or teacher?

Well if you decided to send your child dressed like that I guess the school will keep sending your kid home upon arrival at school. It happens everyday at my wife's school. Dress like trash....call mom or dad....mom or dad comes and picks them up and take them home to change and bring them back. It will only take a couple of times for mom or dad to come to the school before they get the message.

As you will find out if you ever decide to marry or have kids, your children will not be perfect and will make bad decisions and no amount of money thrown at them will make any difference. There is no sure fire way of raising kids. You can only teach them what you believe and they have to make their own decisions but letting them make their own decisions on what to wear to school (I'm talking junior high) will only lead to problems. It's all about teaching kids to have respect for themselves

Their hormones are flying all over the place and they are just starting to expereince their attractions to the opposite sex (or in some cases the same sex...Politically correct to include them) and they think it is fun to try and turn the heads of others by the way they dress and will do it at every chance.

My wife has caught 7th graders fucking in the stairwells on several occasions. Too many children having children these days.

What I am trying to say is there is a time and place for everything. Dressing like trash for school is not in the best interest for your child or my child and there needs to be some kind of guidelines in place to discourage the slutty look.

My simple view is, whatever way you want to dress your kid at home is your business but when they step on the school grounds (public or private) then it is the administrations business.

I'm done pissing Matt, now punch all the holes in it you can. I really like it when you break it down paragraph by paragraph so if you can do that, that would be great.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

You were watching George Carlin last night too?

My parenting style - LOL - I'm too much on a snob to involve myself in other people's parenting. (Just judge from the sidelines like all the other opinionated ninnies.)

I'm not a parent so I can't preach but I do dress myself for work everyday and I do see the little trampola grade scholars in my "hood" and I'm horrified.

Trashy kid will just grow up to be a trashy adult. It's that whole apple/tree thing and that's just sad. Too back you can't teach kids to rise above their parents.

Nah, seen Carlin a lot though, why? Did he do his "John Wayne Gacy loved children too" schtick? Watched NFL season opener last night. ???



In other news, I am all typed out on this topic.

Government schools are a failure, there is a mountain of proof. Disband them or make them optional; that's my version of the best outcome, I've thought it through, no more fighting on EF.com today.

(I don;t mean with you velvett, just in general. I am retiring from this topic for the day. I am resigned to sending my kids to private school.)

The world is full of people who love to tell you what to do. Be suspicious of them, and their goals.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

yes its a group of individuals, but you have to remember that they are there for the purpose of learning. If you have girls dressed up like skanks, some boys will be unable to concentrate, at that age its understandable

You have to be practical if they are going to get the chance to be educated. The other option is to segregate based on sex but i think thats unacceptable, this is a decent solution to a problem of public education. Granted, government education is quite often flawed but a large amount of parents neither have the finances or inclination to educate their children on their own, and I'd rather have a populace with a shred of intelligence

Dude. When I went to school the girls didn't dress "skanky". But I STILL was unable to concentrate. It's called puberty! Something about the bodies of girls when I was in high school that just made me want to strip 'em naked. Studies? The only studying I wanted to do was, studying the perponderance of women around me.

Hell, the Catholic school had a dress code for the girls. OMG, THAT was successful. Some of the skankiest girls around were the ones wearing the white blouses and plaid skirts...

 

[velvett]

Nah, seen Carlin a lot though, why? Did he do his "John Wayne Gacy loved children too" schtick? Watched NFL season opener last night. ???.

THIS:

I saw some awesome videos of this. They were dated, yet informative. The video was a little bit grainy, but entertaining. The only problem was that the narrator was a little bit tough to understand, because he was speaking in German .

Is from the George Carlin "You are all diseased" show.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

THIS:


Is from the George Carlin "You are all diseased" show.

Maybe that is where it originally got into my head. I've seen a lot of his shows.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Well if you decided to send your child dressed like that I guess the school will keep sending your kid home upon arrival at school. It happens everyday at my wife's school. Dress like trash....call mom or dad....mom or dad comes and picks them up and take them home to change and bring them back. It will only take a couple of times for mom or dad to come to the school before they get the message.

The message I get is that the board is comprised of primarily parents who are normally powerless attempting to exert power where there are not checks and balances. They're normally backed by lawyers who's sole job is to keep them from lawsuits. So, overall it's a significant bunch of CYA. The "dress code" issue has been around forever. Imagine the fit that was pitched when you didn't have to wear a COAT for Dogs sake! OMG, and the horror that occured when you could suddenly wear JEANS? The world stopped turning in the early 70's when that happened. Education went to shit and all the evils and stupidity grew out of it. :tongueincheeksmiley"

As you will find out if you ever decide to marry or have kids, your children will not be perfect and will make bad decisions and no amount of money thrown at them will make any difference. There is no sure fire way of raising kids. You can only teach them what you believe and they have to make their own decisions but letting them make their own decisions on what to wear to school (I'm talking junior high) will only lead to problems. It's all about teaching kids to have respect for themselves

Do you mean respect themselves within terms of your notions of respectability?

Their hormones are flying all over the place and they are just starting to expereince their attractions to the opposite sex (or in some cases the same sex...Politically correct to include them) and they think it is fun to try and turn the heads of others by the way they dress and will do it at every chance.

My wife has caught 7th graders fucking in the stairwells on several occasions. Too many children having children these days.

Back when I was in 7th grade, the dress code was dress slack and dress shirts. And 7th graders were STILL Fucking in the stairwells and having babies. This was the early 70s.

What I am trying to say is there is a time and place for everything. Dressing like trash for school is not in the best interest for your child or my child and there needs to be some kind of guidelines in place to discourage the slutty look.

Slutty look? Hell, when girls started wearing PANTS it they were considered sluts. Oh, and then pants were ok and there were no more sluts than normal anyway. The notion of "dressing slutty" has changed over the last 30 years and longer. Mostly it means dress that someone is unaccustomed to or is offended by either because of age or religious perspectives.

My simple view is, whatever way you want to dress your kid at home is your business but when they step on the school grounds (public or private) then it is the administrations business.

The administrations business is to EDUCATE. Punishment, acceptible dress, morals, and values are mine as a parent. They're failing to EDUCATE and are chasing a non-issue in EDUCATING kids.

I'm done pissing Matt, now punch all the holes in it you can. I really like it when you break it down paragraph by paragraph so if you can do that, that would be great.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to strongsmartsexy again.

 

[Y_lifter]

SSS,
Societies "Notion" of inappropriate dress has not changed, simply the
method and materials of doing so..

Eventually, maybe, Women will be able to go topless in public. And still some will try and push the Notion of what is inappropriate for the times.

We aren't talking about 30 years ago. We are referring to 2004.

And this isn't about Sex or Teen pregnancy, but it is about disruption in class and halls. Kids that are going to have sex will have it wearing anything..

I know this issue is not as burning and important as say,, violence in schools, but it is important to some of us.

Getting back to the thread subject, it refers to Schools already having a dress policy, and the teachers not following s policy yet expecting the children to do so, setting a poor example.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

SSS,
Societies "Notion" of inappropriate dress has not changed, simply the
method and materials of doing so..

The "notion" of inappropriate dress had indeed changed at least from what I"ve witnessed in the last 47 years.

Eventually, maybe, Women will be able to go topless in public. And still some will try and push the Notion of what is inappropriate for the times.

Wouldn't that be nice? Some already do at some public beaches, but will get a ticket if caught.

We aren't talking about 30 years ago. We are referring to 2004.

Yes, we are talking about 2004. The same lame ass arguments being used in 2004 were the same lame ass arguments I heard over 30 years ago. They're still no more relevant to being EDUCATED now as they were 30 years ago. Same shit different self-righteous attempting to impose non-EDUCATIONAL restrictions instead of focusing on PROVIDING education. What I dressed like wasn't relevant to being a straigh A student. Me lusting after busty Becky in her tight revealing tops and tight pants daily through 4 different classes didn't keep me from being a straight A student.

And this isn't about Sex or Teen pregnancy, but it is about disruption in class and halls. Kids that are going to have sex will have it wearing anything..

Agreed. Its shouldn't have been brought up as an issue, but since it was, I had to comment on it.

I know this issue is not as burning and important as say,, violence in schools, but it is important to some of us.

I understand that people will thrash about all kinds of things not related to any real issues, or not having any real impact on the outcome. That isn't any more likely to change now than it ever has.

Getting back to the thread subject, it refers to Schools already having a dress policy, and the teachers not following s policy yet expecting the children to do so, setting a poor example.

Teachers not following the dress code? For shame. They should be fired! Kids not following the dress code? Errrrr, this has exactly what to do with them getting an education?

 

[HumorMe]

The message I get is that the board is comprised of primarily parents who are normally powerless attempting to exert power where there are not checks and balances. They're normally backed by lawyers who's sole job is to keep them from lawsuits. So, overall it's a significant bunch of CYA. The "dress code" issue has been around forever. Imagine the fit that was pitched when you didn't have to wear a COAT for Dogs sake! OMG, and the horror that occured when you could suddenly wear JEANS? The world stopped turning in the early 70's when that happened. Education went to shit and all the evils and stupidity grew out of it. :tongueincheeksmiley"



Do you mean respect themselves within terms of your notions of respectability?



Back when I was in 7th grade, the dress code was dress slack and dress shirts. And 7th graders were STILL Fucking in the stairwells and having babies. This was the early 70s.



Slutty look? Hell, when girls started wearing PANTS it they were considered sluts. Oh, and then pants were ok and there were no more sluts than normal anyway. The notion of "dressing slutty" has changed over the last 30 years and longer. Mostly it means dress that someone is unaccustomed to or is offended by either because of age or religious perspectives.



The administrations business is to EDUCATE. Punishment, acceptible dress, morals, and values are mine as a parent. They're failing to EDUCATE and are chasing a non-issue in EDUCATING kids.

I'm too damn lazy to section everything out like you did.

I think you know what I am driving at about respecting themselves so I am not going to waste my time on that one. If they want to dress like a slut when they go out in public, that's fine but when it comes to attending school (I am talking about junior high age) the added distraction of the slut look is not conducive to learning and I'm sure it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

I was in junior high in the 70's and I can't recall anyone at my school pregnant but that is beside the point. It's too commonplace now...that is all I am saying. Attire, morals and lack of repsect for oneself has to be contributing factors but I have no proof.

In this day and age, I wouldn't be surprised one bit of being sued for my perspective. Hell, you can get sued over anything these days.

The administrators have to provide an environment with the least distractions as possible to learn which is kind of like trying to shit in a pepsi bottle without getting any on the rim of the bottle.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

I'm too damn lazy to section everything out like you did.

I think you know what I am driving at about respecting themselves so I am not going to waste my time on that one. If they want to dress like a slut when they go out in public, that's fine but when it comes to attending school (I am talking about junior high age) the added distraction of the slut look is not conducive to learning and I'm sure it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

How one looks or dresses has nothing to do with their learning or being conducive to learning. That's the funniest part about it. You could dress everyone in school in business dress and it won't change a thing scholastically. The hype about dress codes is a smoke screen for the fact that they're failing at providing education.

I was in junior high in the 70's and I can't recall anyone at my school pregnant but that is beside the point. It's too commonplace now...that is all I am saying. Attire, morals and lack of repsect for oneself has to be contributing factors but I have no proof.

They used to hide that shit as much as possible back then. A girl would just suddenly disappear. I knew 3 of them while in junior high. They were taken from the classroom and then home schooled. Most of the kids had no clue what happened to her and there was this huge threat of getting your ass kicked if you let out the information.

In this day and age, I wouldn't be surprised one bit of being sued for my perspective. Hell, you can get sued over anything these days.

I love different perspectives, whether they're commensurate with mine or not.

They have to provide education. Dress codes are just smoke screens for the real problems they're having EDUCATING. School boards are made up of parents. It's not like they have any formal education in being on a school board, or are required to have any education about the education field to be on a school board. But, they'll surely make arbitrary and spurious rules. And these dont' even have to demonstrate, either long or short term, that they're valueable to continued quality EDUCATION. They're just self-righteous parents sitting back struggling with why kids aren't passing etc. Dress codes are a mere smoke screen.

 

[HumorMe]

How one looks or dresses has nothing to do with their learning or being conducive to learning. That's the funniest part about it. You could dress everyone in school in business dress and it won't change a thing scholastically. The hype about dress codes is a smoke screen for the fact that they're failing at providing education.


They used to hide that shit as much as possible back then. A girl would just suddenly disappear. I knew 3 of them while in junior high. They were taken from the classroom and then home schooled. Most of the kids had no clue what happened to her and there was this huge threat of getting your ass kicked if you let out the information.


I love different perspectives, whether they're commensurate with mine or not.

They have to provide education. Dress codes are just smoke screens for the real problems they're having EDUCATING. School boards are made up of parents. It's not like they have any formal education in being on a school board, or are required to have any education about the education field to be on a school board. But, they'll surely make arbitrary and spurious rules. And these dont' even have to demonstrate, either long or short term, that they're valueable to continued quality EDUCATION. They're just self-righteous parents sitting back struggling with why kids aren't passing etc. Dress codes are a mere smoke screen.

I'm sure we can just agree to disagree on certain things. My wife is a 7th grade teacher and has been for 21 years and the thing I have noticed most over those 21 years is the amount of LDS (called stupid when I was in school) kids coming through the schools.

Maybe I just didn't pay attention to them when I was in school but the amount of LDS (special ed) teachers is phenomenal. Don't know the reason why and it could very well be possible there have been no reasonable increases in that area. It just seems like there are a lot.

There are many kids in our district that have to have a "shadow" (an adult person (one for every child) that follows a child around all day long (sits in class with them) for the whole year. To me, that is just rediculous and the amount of spent for that program must be astronomical. For the life of me, I can not undertand why they have to have this program or wouldn't it cheaper to separate these kids from the general school body. I don't know the answer.

Anyway, getting back to what we were talking about, I can see your side but I don't necessarily agree with it all. I know what I have to do for my kids and that is what the most important thing is to me. All others take a backseat to that.

 

[danielson]

Individual rights? Or socialism. Which is a better way of life? There is no compromise. It is like food compromising with poison.

You're making too much over a simple uniform enforcement which only takes place in schools. The individual rights of children are always infringed upon and will continue to be ecause they are children.Certain decisions are deemed outside of their abaility to decide rationally. No matter what type of society they live in. Lets see them start smoking in class or getting hammered up on booze...

Disband government education.

How do you suggest we educate a populace? Who is to pay for a childs education if the parents cannot or do not what to? Would you condemn that child to idiocy, and then letr down the line, reap the social problems it has brought? Many believe that the generation of children raised during the Thatcher years (a passionate supporter of the free market etc) are the direct cause of the social problems seen all over the UK, I'm inclined to agree as she 'trimmed' down the innefficient schools. Yes, she saved money but her actions have contributed to the situation we see.

It is not the job of the state to tell people how to parent. If you think it is, North Korea needs people. Go reproduce there.

Adults have supposed complete autonomy of decision. Children do not, due to resticted access to certain things (drugs, cars etc)....reason- They are not yet mentall mature enough to make a decision sensibly. What allows a child to gain the knowledge to make those decisions more efficienty in a modern world - Education

Parents may not desire to spend time with their kids, play with them, educate them on morals, and as much as that saddens me it is not my place to intefere with that. But every child deserves an education to give them the potential to do anything they want in life or progress further then the life they were brought up in. Do you really want to further the divide between rich and poor...it seems you do. Good for you short term but bad for the society for which you and many may rely on long term

In the US, the majority of private schools are cheaper per child than their government counterparts.

Your last sentence shows there is hope for you yet.

So what would you do for the children who want to go to private school but do not have the finances to do so? They just dont get an education I assume? Children are horrifically spoilt nowadays, but essentially they are INCREDIBLY lucky as all of them have access to an education if they want it. I do thnk all schools should be tiered on ability and that persistant troublemakers be given a last chance and removed. That should cut your spending down.

Private companies taking over institutions (i.e. public access but privately run) have consistantly shown to be low standard. How would you suggest you educate the masses?

 

[strongsmartsexy]

Anyway, getting back to what we were talking about, I can see your side but I don't necessarily agree with it all. I know what I have to do for my kids and that is what the most important thing is to me. All others take a backseat to that.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is correct. Now THAT is something we can agree on, and it goes along with what I had stated in a previous dialog. The school and school board is responsible for providing education. As a parent, I'm responsible for providing discipline, acceptable/appropriate behavior (including dress), morals, values. NOT the school board.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

You're making too much over a simple uniform enforcement which only takes place in schools. The individual rights of children are always infringed upon and will continue to be ecause they are children.Certain decisions are deemed outside of their abaility to decide rationally. No matter what type of society they live in. Lets see them start smoking in class or getting hammered up on booze...

It's the rights of parents that are infringed.

How do you suggest we educate a populace? Who is to pay for a childs education if the parents cannot or do not what to? Would you condemn that child to idiocy, and then letr down the line, reap the social problems it has brought? Many believe that the generation of children raised during the Thatcher years (a passionate supporter of the free market etc) are the direct cause of the social problems seen all over the UK, I'm inclined to agree as she 'trimmed' down the innefficient schools. Yes, she saved money but her actions have contributed to the situation we see.

How do we feed a populace without a government food department? The free market will alwyas step in and meet needs for which there is a demand.

Adults have supposed complete autonomy of decision. Children do not, due to resticted access to certain things (drugs, cars etc)....reason- They are not yet mentall mature enough to make a decision sensibly. What allows a child to gain the knowledge to make those decisions more efficienty in a modern world - Education

True bit irrelevant. I am not arguing that education is a bad thing, or that it is not essential - it is.

Parents may not desire to spend time with their kids, play with them, educate them on morals, and as much as that saddens me it is not my place to intefere with that.

True on all counts.

But every child deserves an education to give them the potential to do anything they want in life or progress further then the life they were brought up in. Do you really want to further the divide between rich and poor...it seems you do. Good for you short term but bad for the society for which you and many may rely on long term

By your reasoning we should provid education for everyone up to the professional schooling of their choice: doctors, engineers, etc. No one is suggesting that....

I don't want to further any divides. I don't have a societal agenda. Society is not a real entity, it does not have rights, it cannot be categorized, it is owed nothing, it provides nothing.

What DOES exist are individuals, and everything that you or anyone says is produced by "society" is really produced by an individual or a group of individuals.

Education, private, government-provided, whatever, does not provide for an educated society. it provides for educated individuals. We must therefore consider the rights of the individuals who are receiving the service.

So what would you do for the children who want to go to private school but do not have the finances to do so? They just dont get an education I assume?

In a free market system, the cost of education would drop precipitously. In the US, private schools are usually cheaper than their government counterparts. If, therefore, government schools were closed, and school taxes no longer collected, the monies would be available for the overwhelming majority of children to attend private schools.

As with anything else, charities and some public assistance would probably step in for the very poor, as they already do.

Children are horrifically spoilt nowadays, but essentially they are INCREDIBLY lucky as all of them have access to an education if they want it. I do thnk all schools should be tiered on ability and that persistant troublemakers be given a last chance and removed. That should cut your spending down.

Don't most European countries have something along the lines of a tiered system? I know Germany does. The UK as well?

Private companies taking over institutions (i.e. public access but privately run) have consistantly shown to be low standard. How would you suggest you educate the masses?

I am for a free market solution to education. How do we feed the masses? Certainly food is a greater need than education.

 

[danielson]

It's the rights of parents that are infringed.

by not allowing their children to wear what they want? How so? Granted, by being forced to publically educate heir children thei rights are being impinged upon somewhat but they could homeschool their child

How do we feed a populace without a government food department? The free market will alwyas step in and meet needs for which there is a demand.

A private school here which is cheap costs something alog the lines of 3000 sterling a year, maybe you could find one for 2500. Mine did. How the hell is a low income family going to afford that on top of all the other costs of their daily lives?

By your reasoning we should provid education for everyone up to the professional schooling of their choice: doctors, engineers, etc.

I don't want to further any divides. I don't have a societal agenda. Society is not a real entity, it does not have rights, it cannot be categorized, it is owed nothing, it provides nothing.

What DOES exist are individuals, and everything that you or anyone says is produced by "society" is really produced by an individual or a group of individuals.

Education, private, government-provided, whatever, does not provide for an educated society. it provides for educated individuals. We must therefore consider the rights of the individuals who are receiving the service.

but those individuals must live together as a society. True, each individual is provided for, but if a sizeable number of individuals are not educated, they will not be abeto function within a society and become outcasts (druggies, criminals etc). A lack of free education would expland the numbers of these peoples dramatically, furthering to agreater rich-poor divide and more crime and anarchy as a result. Its already happeneing to some extent, just expect it to get worse with peoples not recieving an education

In a free market system, the cost of education would drop precipitously. In the US, private schools are usually cheaper than their government counterparts. If, therefore, government schools were closed, and school taxes no longer collected, the monies would be available for the overwhelming majority of children to attend private schools.

As with anything else, charities and some public assistance would probably step in for the very poor, as they already do.

I dont doubt that removing centralised control of anything is a good thing as givenrment just tends to throw a whole bunch of red tape around, achieving nothng other than ensuring the salaries of managers (I'm going to be working in a field where ths is a reality) so i'm acutely aware of it.

However look at the numbers of populatin we have, and look at the average private school bill....3000 pounds a year. Most are going to be unable to afford this, and there aren;t enough charities to ensure that all pupils get provided for. Government has refused to offer assisted places for private pupils (where they pay some and the family covers as much as they can)...ive been on the recieving end of that. This is why I'm so aware of the problem, being publicaly and prvately educated myself

Don't most European countries have something along the lines of a tiered system? I know Germany does. The UK as well?

I am for a free market solution to education. How do we feed the masses? Certainly food is a greater need than education.

Mainland europe does, I wish we did. I meant 2 tiers as a crap education for poor people and an excellent one for rich people. Europe has an excellent program where the schools teach you what you most need to know, so a practical school will teach woodwork, typing etc, whereas a gramma will do science, Maths, english....

Much much better. I was publically educated much of my life, but my parents realised it was holding me back (lots) compared to how well I could be doing. However private schools in the place I live are extremely expensive. I had to work my ass off for 3 months in order to get a partial scholarship because the government refused to part fund my education (even though i didnt want to go to one of their schools)...as a result I had to learn stuf I would only be examined on 3 years down the line in science and maths.

There is NO way th average low income pupil could achieve this... only a handfyl of scholarships are given out and the schools partially do it for altruism but also the guarantee a good pupil capable of high grades.

So while I do agree with you, givernment education sucks! (I never recieved a blackboard lesson in maths, instead we had to work through a pamphlet on each subject which was then marked by teacher). Unfortunetly I cannot thin of a mechanism by which it would be afordable to place all pupils through education. If there was I would have no objection to it

 

[theoak01]

its getting bad up here also,my college put a dress code in effect for our gym class.

I see this bullshit as just another money grab to take the little money us college kids have anyway. and my college isnt even a catholic college its a regular community college.

 

[Taps]

Bring on the uniforms, I say.

http://www.onlytease.com/plaid-skirt/pic1.jpg