School stabbing in Japan

[chesty]

Real quick like, I will elaborate more later.

This morning Japan time 8 school kids were stabbed to death by a Japenese man who worked for the school and had a prior record.

What this points out is the fallacy of gun control. As has been said by the NRA and others it is not the weapon that kills it is the person using the weapon.

A few points:

1. Knives are easier to conceal

2. Knives are more numerous

3. Knives are more lethal

(by lethal I mean that they can be used more readily, in a much more confined space, are harder to defend against, work in a full 360 degrees and in general are almost impossible to see until it is too late and there are basicallyl zero laws regulating the use and possession of a knife)

I will post more later.

Quick note I will not have this thread turned into a liberal/conservative venting. If we cannot have an intelligent conversation, I will pull the plug on this thread.

chesty

 

[WizzBang]

Real quick like, I will elaborate more later.

This morning Japan time 8 school kids were stabbed to death by a Japenese man who worked for the school and had a prior record.

What this points out is the fallacy of gun control. As has been said by the NRA and others it is not the weapon that kills it is the person using the weapon.

A few points:

1. Knives are easier to conceal

2. Knives are more numerous

3. Knives are more lethal

(by lethal I mean that they can be used more readily, in a much more confined space, are harder to defend against, work in a full 360 degrees and in general are almost impossible to see until it is too late and there are basicallyl zero laws regulating the use and possession of a knife)

I will post more later.

Quick note I will not have this thread turned into a liberal/conservative venting. If we cannot have an intelligent conversation, I will pull the plug on this thread.

chesty

chesty I have the same point of view you do on gun control it seems. because you asked not to get too heavily into any belief venting I won't, but it does seem as though there is another motive behind banning guns, not so much that people go postal and kids shoot up schools, as tragedy is always bound to happen in one form or another, but more so that the machine doesnt' want us to be able to protect ourselves. that small point being made, yes knives are certainly more deadly and abundant than guns, people will always find a method to get the job done if need be, im sorry to say it but guns will eventually become banned im positive of it, once this happens knives will be used more often. if they should happen to ban knives and the need arises, I would have no problem putting a hammer though someone's head

 

[Wfabrizio]

A lunatic will find any way to inflict harm on people. But just imagine if this freak did have an assault rifle or a high capacity magazine for a pistol. He would have killed a hell of a lot more kids.

I own firearms and I support ownership of firearms, but we do need stricter methods of acquiring them here in the US. I personally think that the concealed weapons approach (application process, training, background check) is the best way to go for everyone seeking ownership of a firearm.

There needs to be training and a thorough process. Currently, it's only an application and background process. I believe there should also be mandatory training.

Most firearm fatalities are due to accidents, not homicide.

 

[chesty]

I don't mean to not want views on gun control and such issues, I just don't want it to turn into a name calling your right I'm wrong discussion.

Some thngs to point out.

1. Japan has essentially a total ban on guns

2. the US does not

3. Whether or not there was or was not gun control would not have changed this situation.

4. Most gun shootouts and such happen within arms reach

5. There are exceptions to this, such as the two kids back east who used rifles or the man in CA who stood at the school fence

6. Knife attacks will always take place between 0 and 21 feet.

6. Rehabilitation does not work on everyone

7. Japan does not have the death penalty

8. As can be seen, the problems here are the same as elsewhere

9. People kill people, not guns/knives, etc

10. Knives can be used to derive pleasure just as a gun.

You can target practice, defend yourself, and inthe case of a knife create art through carvings and other lmeans.

And yes, if used in a certain way, they can be used to kill.

11. Knives are seen as "less" evil than guns. Why?

 

[plifter]

dude, I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that knives are harder to defend against than guns. I've never seen anyone block a bullet. BTW I like guns but I still think they are more deadly than knives

 

[chesty]

Wf, most deaths by guns are from homicides not accidents which are at an all time low in the US.

Most statest tha have concealed carry require training and learning of the basic laws of the state concerning the use of the weapon and self defense.

The point is not whether or not he could have killed more. In fact a man in CA with a semi automatic AK47 or sks don't remember, killed less kids than this guy and had full mags.

The point is that it happened at school, by a man with a record and using a knife. And he killed eight kids. How many were killed at Columbine? In CA? In the South East? The knife is silent, efficient and deadly. Every bit as much as a gun.

 

[chesty]

Dude, you are just wrong. Obviously you have not been in nor seen a knife fight or attack. Watch a movie called Surviving edged weapons. After being Deputy for 4 years, and having my supervisor killed while he and three other Deputies were within 2 feet of the killer, I submit to you that knives are much harder to defend against. Remember, they will go through a bullet proof vest, like a hot knife through butter, they work in 360 degrees and I garauntee you that if you had a gun and were within 21 feet of some one with a knife that half way knew how to use it you would more than likely be dead.

If you were within 10 feet of me or anyone else with a knife and you had a gun you would be dead.

You make the same false claim that if someone pulls a knife on you you will just shoot them. Wrong, it does not happen that way. I don't disagree that guns cause tremendous damage, but they only work in a straight line and you can seek cover from the attacker, with a knife you cannot. You must be able to defend yourself with your bare hands or you will die. At least with a gun I have chance to pull my gun possibly, find cover etc.

 

[Hugh Gellatts]

You have good points, but wasn't the gun vs. knife debate solved in one of the Indiana Jones movies?

 

[tomcat]

IKEDA, Japan (Reuters) - Eight children were killed and 15 people injured in Japan's worst school tragedy Friday when a middle-aged man with a history of mental illness went on a stabbing rampage at an elementary school in western Japan.

The injured were mostly 7 and 8-year-old students at the school in Ikeda, a suburb of the western city of Osaka. Seven of those killed were girls and one was a 6-year-old boy, Japanese media said.

Two teachers were also injured, police said, including one 28-year-old man who was in critical condition and underwent emergency surgery after the attack, considered unprecedented in traditionally safe Japan. Five children were also in critical condition, television reports said.

The tragedy began when the man, wielding an 11-inch knife, walked into a classroom in mid-morning and began to stab children in a rampage that media said lasted a little over 10 minutes.

"He came in holding a knife and started stabbing," a first grade girl said.


One sixth-grade girl told Reuters: "We were listening to an announcement over the loudspeaker, and then it was broken into by a scream and a noise like a desk falling down."

"Then I heard someone scream from below, 'Run!"'

Several children ran into a nearby supermarket yelling and crying for help, witnesses said.

"One of the boys, whose back was stained with red blood, fell in front of the cashier. He was pale and did not speak a word," a shop clerk told a television reporter.

Said one schoolboy: "I saw a person who had fallen down. I also saw blood."

Police were holding in custody a 37-year-old man who they said had previously undergone treatment for schizophrenia. "We have arrested a suspect," said a local police spokesman.

It was the worst mass-killing in Japan since the 1995 fatal sarin gas attack on crowded Tokyo subways by the Aum Shinrikyo (Aum Supreme Truth) cult which left 12 dead and thousands ill.

 

[chesty]

Indiana Jones was a movie. Real life is not like that. 23 dead or injured, that is a record even for here.

 

[MP5]

Chesty, liberals don't take FACTS into account when arguing. This maniac killed almost as many as columbine, and injured just as many in a country that has a ban on guns. And if you figure he acted alone vs. Columbine that had to murderers going he did more damage. People are ignorant to the truth, almost everyone I know carries a knife, no one I know carries a gun, it is illegal without a permit. I am sure level headed people like criminals choose not to carry guns because they too have not permit, Yeah right...

 

[plifter]

A man with a knife that is 21 feet away can kill me if I have a gun pointed at his chest. Dude you've seen too many Bruce Lee movies.

 

[Wfabrizio]

You're right Chesty, I just looked at some statistics and death from gun accidents is lower than homicide and gun related homicides have dropped considerably.

Anyways, that guy in CA is a bad example. He was shooting from across the street and who knows how well he was able to acquire his targets.

My point is, if a lunatic has a firearm he/she can certainly inflict more damage than with only a knife or other weapon. There's no arguing that point. Especially with a shotgun.

Anyways, I live in a state that has concealed weapons privileges but my point is that training, education regarding gun laws, and very thorough background checks should be mandatory for every firearm owner.

I've seen so called "experienced" firearms owners at shooting ranges do some of the stupidest things. Also, if I understand it correctly, concealed weapons permit holders have more personal information recorded on them then plain gun owners.

Some people just simply should not own firearms and you know I'm right.

 

[chesty]

Your right, some should not own guns, I do not debate that period. Yes, people have the potential using a gun to cause great damage, but again, look at the shootings that do occur. Hundreds of rounds fired and only a few hits. I know of one instance where over 80 rounds were fire and one man was hit in the leg that is a 1.25% hit ratio. There are other times where entire clips have been emptied reloaded and emptied again and know one hit and the gunfight took place at a distance of 3 feet.

Plifter. If you have a gun pointed at my chest of course I cannot win, unless your a really bad shot. What I am telling you is fact, that if you are attacked from 21 feet by a person with a knife and you have to draw your gun (your being attaked not attacking so your gun would not be drawn) your chances of surviving the attack are at best 50/50. Don't bother arguing this as you do not have any idea what you are talking about. I have taught in the academy how to defend against knife attacks, have taught people how to survive a confrontation when attacked (deputies in the academy) I garauntee you that you would not win a knife fight even if you had a gun, unless you were planning on killing the individual already (before he pulled the knife on you) Especially if you were at 6 feet from me you would be dead period gun or no gun drawn or not drawn, and Bruce Lee has nothing to do with it.

 

[plifter]

I thought the point was in this story the person with the knife attacked first. If you switched the situation to a man with a gun who attacks first the guy with the gun is capable of more damage. Plus it takes a lot of work or a well placed cut to kill someone with a knife. You also have to get within arms length of your victim. It's a lot harder to run from a gun as bullets tend to travel 2000 feet per second or more.

 

[Austin316]

Ive heard from many differant poeple that knives are more dangerous than guns in a closed space, it is possible to disarm a gun within arms reach, but trying to disarm someone with a knife will likely get you a severley cut hand

 

[HappyScrappy]

I've heard that in a closed space, you want to get the fuck out of there. don't try to disarm him, just get our of arms reach. arms rach with a gun goes from 3 or 4 feet to about 100yards and walls and chairs and tables don't count for much.

I'm not a big fan of guns, but Warik had a point that if there were adults with weapons there (security guards), then perhaps they could have gotten the guy faster...

oh well. either way, people will continue to kill each other in some way or another.

 

[RyanH]

I own firearms and I support ownership of firearms, but we do need stricter methods of acquiring them here in the US. I personally think that the concealed weapons approach (application process, training, background check) is the best way to go for everyone seeking ownership of a firearm.

There needs to be training and a thorough process. Currently, it's only an application and background process. I believe there should also be mandatory training.

Wfabrizio offers the most sensible approach.........

Do any of you find it likely that a knife can, on a broad scale can cause as much harm, as guns do? How often do you hear of Columbines caused by knives? While this recent incident is unfortunate, it is more of a rarity. Of course, people are killed by knives, but its much harder to create a "massacre" with a knife than it is with a gun. While knives are, in fact, a problem, the real danger lies with THE BANG BANG KILLER-----GUNS!!!

 

[Mitchellm]

***. In Japan, there were 17 gun related deaths last year, while there were 16,000 in the U.S. In America an average of 100 people die every day from gun related causes. ***

'nuff said.

 

[chesty]

We also have about 50 times the population. You cannot run from a knife attack, ask anyone who has been attacked by a perosn with a knife.

RyanH, knife attacks happne everyday in school, it is just not reported as often because they are not seen as inherently evil and people in general do not understand the potential of the knife.

Also, I asked to keep the emotional comments out. It is not the bang bang of the gun that kills. It is the person wielding the weapon.

The point of this is that it is not the weapon of choice but the person using it. There is a general problem that is occuring and it has nothing to do with guns and everything to do with people.

In Japan, nerve gas was used. How long before we have that happen here?

Does no one see the real problem here?

 

[plifter]

Why can't you run from a knife attack? I've seen it done before. This is crazy, a mothor fucker with an uzi will fuck up more people much quicker than a motherfucker with a knife. Guns hold multiple rounds of ammo. You can kill 10 people within 20 seconds with a gun. Try that with a knife that takes multiple stab wounds to kill. You can cover your vital areas with your arms as well. How many people die from a single stab wound? That would be pretty rare but people die from single gun shot wounds frequently.

 

[KAYNE]

PEOPLE WHO OWN GUNS ARE BAD. THEY ARE JUST LIKE THOSE IDIOTS WHO USE STEROIDS!!! BAD PEOPLE.

NOW IF YOU WILL EXCUSE ME, I HAVE TO GO CLEAN MY GLOCK .40 AND THEN LOAD MY SYRINGES FOR LATER.

BAD PEOPLE MAN, BAD PEOPLE!!!


MP5---YOU NEED TO BE SHOT BRO, YOU OWN GUNS!!! DAMN YOU FOR OWNING A GUN!!!

 

[ryker77]

Its easy china just needs a five day waiting period for kitchen knives. That would solve that problem..


Mitchellm wrote In Japan, there were 17 gun related deaths last year, while there were 16,000 in the U.S. In America an average of 100 people die every day from gun related causes. ***

Mitchellm, I really doubt those numbers are true for both the US and Japan. Can you show just one proof of those numbers? Just One!!

 

[KAYNE]

Its easy china just needs a five day waiting period for kitchen knives. That would solve that problem..

BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

 

[RyanH]

RyanH, knife attacks happne everyday in school, it is just not reported as often because they are not seen as inherently evil and people in general do not understand the potential of the knife.

Also, I asked to keep the emotional comments out. It is not the bang bang of the gun that kills. It is the person wielding the weapon.

Chesty, you are the one of the few conservatives on this board that I often can find some common ground with. (very unusual however). In this instance, I do agree that the issue is deeper than guns.....there's also a moral erosion responsible for much of the violence we see---as you said the person certainly bares most of the blame. But, what do we do in the meantime, while waiting to fix societal ills? Do we require tougher regulations on gun use or do we just sit idlely by and watch this nation become even more violent?

I also agree with you in that guns are not the only threat----knives and other weapons can be just as threatening. You know this more than any of us, with your law enforcement experience. My main premise is that, of course, we should be allowed to have guns to protect ourselves. But as Wfabrizio pointed out------getting one should not be easy. We have to find a balance between letting responsible gun owners have their guns for sport and safety, and between keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and children.

The only way to accomplish this is through more regulation. We cannot be laissez faire on this issue.

And, I've attempted to keep emotion out of my argument, per your request.

 

[KAYNE]

YOU PEOPLE NEED TO COME TO NEW ORLEANS CITY. THIS SHIT HAPPENS EVERYDAY IN SCHOOLS.

 

[chesty]

As for the knife attacks, you do not know much. While a gun yes has the potential to kill more faster, I can kill you with one stab. My supervisor on the dept. was killed with a single knife would to the neck. If I have a knife and you run from me I will kill you period. I have proven this over and over again. In fact, you give your mailing address and I will make you a copy of surviving edged weapons and mail it to you. Once I get my video capture card I will post a few scenes.

As for the numbers they musstcome from HCI. Average of 16,000 gun related deths a year and then the average of 100 gun related deaths a day. The numbers do not work out. average of 100 a day is equal to 36,500 deaths a year. More than twice the number stated for the per year statistic.

Also, let's look at the per capita rate based on your numbers. (worst case) There are approximately 300 million Americans, therefore, 36,500/300,000,000 = 0.012% of Americans is killed by guns each year (36,500) Now, I am not detracting from the magnitude of anyone dying, but the numbers as you print do not lie. While 36,500 seems like a lot by itself when compared to the fact that it is derived from a body of more than 300 million it is no longer so large. We do not have a major problem with gun related deaths. In fact, accidental deaths by doctors is much higher than this and we license them to "practice" medicine.

 

[HappyScrappy]

yeah, but you are trained to use the knife and kill with it. some kid with it is less likely to be trained with it and therefore does less damage.
whereas a retarded monkey could shoot you from point blank range and kill you

 

[chesty]

More regulation. We have 20,000 plus gun laws on the books already. Don't you think that is enough regulation. l It is freaking hard as hell to buy a gun today. I can get it the same day, but Imust have a background check, that automatically enters me into NCIC for six months. Which means I could be erronously arrested because my description matched that of someone else. Yes, I do agree with you on the moral decay, but licensing and regulating the law abiding citizen is not the way.

 

[plifter]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. In a fight at close range I would prefer a Derringer over a knife. I used to have a .38 Derringer and with some practice got pretty accurate with it from about 15 feet.

 

[crashbarrier]

Chesty,PLEAZSE CHECK THE FACTS.Japan most definately does have the death penalty in its cruellest form.Prisoners are not notified about the date of execution and family ane not notified until after tthe factThe U.S POPULATIONis not 50 times japans not even 3 times.People kill people very efficiently with the aid of guns and to a lesser extent knives.

 

[chesty]

So Japan has over 100 million so what, I was making a point not stating factual population statistics.

When I was in Japan, no was given the death penalty, instead they were sentenced to life. Americans who were convicted in Japan had a life expectancy of 7 years. If they have the death penalty great then use it. I cannot be right on everything.

Obviously most here replying have never witnessed an actual gun fight. Just because you have 100 rounds does not mean that you can kill one hundred people instantly or quickly. Unless you are trained to use the weapon at a high rate of fire your chance of killing mass amounts of people is no greater than with a knife.

And it only takes one stab wound to kill you instantly. Again, you are missing the point of the conversation. It is not whether or not guns are used more effectively than knives it is the fact that a knife was used to kill at a public place just as effectively as any gun was ever used. Again, would you prefer to attend school with armed gaurds or a school in which there were no gaurds and kids were kids and bad guys were in jail or fertilizer?

Even if there were armed gaurds, the chance of them being there at the moment of the attack is slim to none and all you would have is the same number of injuries and maybe one dead bad guy. But more likely not since the officers could not be sure of their shot without the inherent possibility of hitting an innocent.

Plifter, give more your address and I will mail you a copy of the video or give you the website for Paladin Press. I think after watching the video your eyes will be opened.

I am not agreeing to disagree with you on this, you are just wrong. We will live it at that.