Rippetoe on chest exercises

[djeclipse]

Your are arguing a point of view I have said I have heard other wise, but I think I have been quite open with the fact that I am not 100% sure about it. I don't think I have purposely misguided anybody, infact posting lies would be consistent with making arguments which are completely unproven and based (As far as I am currently aware) on the opinions of two men, not opening debate, but just insulting other members of this board if they disagree with you.

The fact of the matter is bodybuilders, in general, say and do stupid shit, compare the methods of Tom Platz's training compared to the ethos of this board and you will find that information across peers is generally inconsistent. And I think it would be fair to say that Tom Platz is/was just a tiny little bit more succesful then Madcow.

The only authority in this argument is science, and the only purpose of this is board is to learn and to discuss. It seems to me that based on that response you are unwilling or incapable of all three.

The fact of the matter is buddy, I asked you for help, I asked you to show me the stuff that has made you train a certain way and you refused. You have not presented your argument more effectively, nor have you provided any evidence other then the opinions of other people. You're just shouting louder, and that doesn't make your opinion right, nor does it make me a liar.

You posted this

- Don't quote me on this, but it might be interesting to note that I think I read an artical from Madcow which dispelled the inner outer thing, but then agreed with the up and down thing....

I asked YOU to show me where he said this as I have never read anything of the sort from Madcow.

You made the proposition, it is up to you to do the research and back up what you have said. Not I. I know he hasn't said anything of the sort.


As far as Tom Platz vs Madcow and cradentials? Everything madcow has written is based on Mark Rippetoe who's credentials speak for itself. madcow simply took the time to make a coles notes sort of speak for all of us for free.

 

[PoweredUp]

Does anyone have the link to that powerlifter that decided to really watch his diet and cut fat? When he was done he was f'n ripped and huge. This was posted a while back, it was a link to some powerlifting board.

I think DaveTSI from right here on our own boards is a great example of this as well.

 

[silver_shadow]

You posted this



I asked YOU to show me where he said this as I have never read anything of the sort from Madcow.

You made the proposition, it is up to you to do the research and back up what you have said. Not I. I know he hasn't said anything of the sort.


As far as Tom Platz vs Madcow and cradentials? Everything madcow has written is based on Mark Rippetoe who's credentials speak for itself. madcow simply took the time to make a coles notes sort of speak for all of us for free.

and throw in bill starr for good measure.... still want to talk credentials MM?

 

[mad_monkey59]

Buddy, I think you have missed the point.

Training is typically inconsistent across peers therefore science is used as a bench mark... thats the point, it was an example.

I'd rather go back and talk about BB'ing, we are all grown men and I think we can agree to disagree on this one.

and throw in bill starr for good measure.... still want to talk credentials MM?

 

[djeclipse]

and throw in bill starr for good measure.... still want to talk credentials MM?

yup, care to dispute either of those 2 MM

You were the one that brought up cradentials lol

 

[mad_monkey59]

yup, care to dispute either of those 2 MM

You were the one that brought up cradentials lol

NO.

Tom Platz (a former Mr Universe) was one of the first guys to talk about overloading and shocking muscles and would do 80+ sets per workout etc... etc... with lots of different variations.

Arnold (a man who needs no introduction) would drive into a Forest and do squats with his buddy for an entire day, there are examples of Arny doing a 'shock day' training comprising of around 6 hours and countless sets of the same 'isolation' exercise.

I don't think you can argue that either of these two were unsuccessful. But, based on the ethos of this board, these guys don't have a fucking clue when it comes to training.

You're saying look at Starr and Rippetoe they are both saying 'x'... all I am doing is pointing out that successful people (Arny and Platz) make mistakes and do stupid stuff sometimes. It doesn't stop them being successful though.

The argument is you cannot base your beliefs on the credentials of other people. Be it famous bodybuilders or strength coaches without independant satisfactory scientific evidence.

What I need to see is an independant scientific artical stating that the upper muscle fibres in the pec are not stimulated any more by incline bench then flat bench.

If you can show me that then please do so, I am hugely interested by what you are saying. I will happpily put my hands up and say thanks, I was wrong on this one.

This used to be what this board was about, a comparison of opinions and athletes trying to help each other... when did it get populated by a bunch of girls who are more interested in winning arguments then they are in bodybuilding?

 

[djeclipse]

With enough AAS one can lift a rock 200 times a day and they will grow. Does this mean that lifting said rock is optimal training? Hell no.

Just becasue Arnold and Tom Platz were able to pump themselves with any and every drug they could find does not mean their training was even remotely optimal.

On the other hand Mark Rippetoe, Bill Star do not rely on ASS to supplement their training, they get results without the use of AAS. Good proper training is all that is needed t oput on size and strength in a very short period of time. They get results

So much results that when people follow their training more often then not they get accused of using AAS because of the size and strength gains they are making. The people that blindly try and mimic what Arnold does have less then optimal gains and can't believe that anyone can make such gains without taking AAS.

As I've said before, train how you want, if you want to "shock" your muscles, do 50 sets of curls like Arnold does, train one body part a week, go right ahead, that is your decision. But just because your favorite body builder does it while filling their body with 40,000/ year worth of AAS, does not mean it's good training, not even close.

As far as the upper and lower chest goes, you were the one that suggested Madcow said it somewhere. It is up to you to prove it to be true as you are making the claim. Don't try and turn it around and put it on me to do research for you. Show me where madcow said anything fo the sort... please as it was your claim. I know he said nothing of the sort, why would I go looking for something that isn't there?

 

[silver_shadow]

NO.

Tom Platz (a former Mr Universe) was one of the first guys to talk about overloading and shocking muscles and would do 80+ sets per workout etc... etc... with lots of different variations.

Arnold (a man who needs no introduction) would drive into a Forest and do squats with his buddy for an entire day, there are examples of Arny doing a 'shock day' training comprising of around 6 hours and countless sets of the same 'isolation' exercise.

I don't think you can argue that either of these two were unsuccessful. But, based on the ethos of this board, these guys don't have a fucking clue when it comes to training.

You're saying look at Starr and Rippetoe they are both saying 'x'... all I am doing is pointing out that successful people (Arny and Platz) make mistakes and do stupid stuff sometimes. It doesn't stop them being successful though.

The argument is you cannot base your beliefs on the credentials of other people. Be it famous bodybuilders or strength coaches without independant satisfactory scientific evidence.

What I need to see is an independant scientific artical stating that the upper muscle fibres in the pec are not stimulated any more by incline bench then flat bench.

If you can show me that then please do so, I am hugely interested by what you are saying. I will happpily put my hands up and say thanks, I was wrong on this one.

This used to be what this board was about, a comparison of opinions and athletes trying to help each other... when did it get populated by a bunch of girls who are more interested in winning arguments then they are in bodybuilding?

well with that kind of attitude i doubt you are going to get very far on any board.

anyway. i don't know much about the way tom platz trained, but i've heard enough about arnie was full of shit... at least what he told us was *probably* not what he actually did.... with that said, i doubt very much that very many folks other than arnie and platz themselves actually benefitted a whole deal from their training styles. remember the superior genetics and (at least in arnie's case) the use of AAS. now if you want to talk about rippetoe/starr, then there's enough proof that normal average joe's ARE actually doing well on their routine's.... right up to more elite lifters... many of them are natty. based on that itself, i'd pick rippetoe/starr over arnie/platz....
science? i'll probably have to look around....

 

[mad_monkey59]

well with that kind of attitude i doubt you are going to get very far on any board.

anyway. i don't know much about the way tom platz trained, but i've heard enough about arnie was full of shit... at least what he told us was *probably* not what he actually did.... with that said, i doubt very much that very many folks other than arnie and platz themselves actually benefitted a whole deal from their training styles. remember the superior genetics and (at least in arnie's case) the use of AAS. now if you want to talk about rippetoe/starr, then there's enough proof that normal average joe's ARE actually doing well on their routine's.... right up to more elite lifters... many of them are natty. based on that itself, i'd pick rippetoe/starr over arnie/platz....
science? i'll probably have to look around....

I wasn't refering to you.

Anyway I absolutely agree with you... I fully take on board what you are saying, there is no doubt that Rippetoe/Starr's method is better then Arnies.

However, I am just refering to that one particular aspect of training, i.e. inclines being superfluous, which it is alot harder to conclude on based on observations.

 

[silver_shadow]

call it anecdotal or whatever but many including myself haven't noticed much carryover from incline bench to flat bench... if we have, then it was when the incline wasn't too much.... maybe just a slight incline or max 30 degrees.

you have to look at it in the context of what rippetoe is trying to achieve which is to get his lifters as strong as possible in (usually) the big 3.

that's not an official scientific study though.