replacing deadlifts w/ power cleans

[MsBeverlyHills]

I will be playing 7s this summer (thats rugby) & think I should replace the deads with more exploxive lift- power cleans- to get more power up.

any thoughts? Im kinda concerned because my lifts will be lower (I cant clean anywhere near 195) & Im limited to going light, unless I buy/borrow rubber-coated plates.

or should I do both on different days? Thanks

 

[jdevlin1985]

I will be playing 7s this summer (thats rugby) & think I should replace the deads with more exploxive lift- power cleans- to get more power up.

any thoughts? Im kinda concerned because my lifts will be lower (I cant clean anywhere near 195) & Im limited to going light, unless I buy/borrow rubber-coated plates.

or should I do both on different days? Thanks

Why not incorporate both...

You will be deadlifting that 200kg in no time

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

Why not incorporate both...

You will be deadlifting that 200kg in no time

LOL. thanks JDev.. the last time i was in London- I trained at LA Fitness near Picadilly & I dont think the weights even went up to 200kg!! LOL

 

[jdevlin1985]

LOL. thanks JDev.. the last time i was in London- I trained at LA Fitness near Picadilly & I dont think the weights even went up to 200kg!! LOL

LOL. I would'nt be suprised with LA Fitness. We need more dedicated girls like you Ms to re-vamp LA Fitness for the female fitness/bodybuilders of today here in the UK.

I would rest at least 72 hours between major lift workouts though i.e. deads and cleans

7s rugby huh - I am very impressed

 

[Dial_tone]

I would love to be able powerclean but my arms are too big to catch the weight. I say go for it.

 

[ChinkNasty]

I would say go for it...I play rugby during the year (Vanderbilt Div. II - SEC baby!) and I definitely power clean all the time with no exceptions, but I will also deadlift in the same week if not in the same workout...everyone's different but there's no question that it can be done...but in terms of explosiveness and practical application, definitely keep power cleans as a staple of your in-season workout

and sevens wow, we did that a few times during the year just to get some cardio in and daaaamn I think I almost sh*t myself



CN

 

[Madcow2]

If technque is an issue the high pulls (snatch or clean), or snatch/clean pulls to a weightless shug will provide just about all the benefits of the basic powerclean. There are videos on this site: http://www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter/videos/video_index.htm

I don't know if these help either: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=4125469&postcount=1

 

[b fold the truth]

I've never been a believer that the OLY lifts will MAKE ANYONE FASTER or MORE EXPLOSIVE.

B True

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

I've never been a believer that the OLY lifts will MAKE ANYONE FASTER or MORE EXPLOSIVE.

B True

really? or are you being sarcastic?

Bill Starr has power cleans in his football player training 3 times a wk & no deadlifts. Why do think theyre not important- at least for a specific sport (football, rugby, etc).

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

I would say go for it...I play rugby during the year (Vanderbilt Div. II - SEC baby!) and I definitely power clean all the time with no exceptions, but I will also deadlift in the same week if not in the same workout...everyone's different but there's no question that it can be done...but in terms of explosiveness and practical application, definitely keep power cleans as a staple of your in-season workout

and sevens wow, we did that a few times during the year just to get some cardio in and daaaamn I think I almost sh*t myself



CN

this is my first time playing 7s so dont scare me!! LOL... how bad could it be- its mostly running, not tackling- right???

 

[kiloamp]

I agree with you on switching from deadlifts to power cleans. In fact, I'd drop the deadlifts all together in favor of clean and snatch pulls if I were involved in explosive sports.

 

[Madcow2]

really? or are you being sarcastic?

Bill Starr has power cleans in his football player training 3 times a wk & no deadlifts. Why do think theyre not important- at least for a specific sport (football, rugby, etc).

I don't think he's being saracstic.

 

[coolcolj]

Well personally I wouldn't be doing much heavy deadlifts inseason, drains the CNS too much

explosive squats and some powercleans or RDLs will do the job nicely

powercleans only really help the first few steps of accleration from a dead stop. That's what sprinters use em for. As do weight training in general.
After that plyos help more for the high speed side of things, and reactive work in regards to being able to absorb the forces and keep the feet/knee and hips from collasping, and reducing ground contact times. General strength work also helps with the force absorbtion side of things too.

But you still have to sprint, to run fast

 

[coolcolj]

Also its the catching aspect of powercleans, which is basicly a force absortion type plyo move that is where the other benefit comes from. A bit like an attitude drop, but with lower velocity and more load. People think it's just the explosion part that has benefit, but the catch is important too. So you wanna do it kinda deep to get some benefit from that, ie like a jump landing type depth

force absortion is king when it comes to sports training! Off course you strength to absorb force
And you have to absorb force before you can react and explode

 

[ChinkNasty]

this is my first time playing 7s so dont scare me!! LOL... how bad could it be- its mostly running, not tackling- right???

haha well we scrimmaged nashville's mens squad and they are a big big group of crazy f'n samoan men and sh*t...It's just a LOT more running, you get tired a lot faster because if played right there should be almost no rucking at all (ie continuous play and pop passes...you usually dont go to ground if your teammates know how to support properly in 7s) and alot of times as a back (which I am, I dont know what position you play...) you will find yourself making a lot more tackles on a lot of bigger guys more frequently than you would in a regular game...but it's fun and makes you a better player no question, you have to make quick reads and know when to take that ball to ground or stay on your feet in a tackle...good luck, have fun and dont hurt yourself...

jus outta curiousity, what/who do you play for?

peace,
CN

 

[ChinkNasty]

Also its the catching aspect of powercleans, which is basicly a force absortion type plyo move that is where the other benefit comes from. A bit like an attitude drop, but with lower velocity and more load. People think it's just the explosion part that has benefit, but the catch is important too. So you wanna do it kinda deep to get some benefit from that, ie like a jump landing type depth

force absortion is king when it comes to sports training! Off course you strength to absorb force
And you have to absorb force before you can react and explode

K to you...very logically explained how power cleans do in fact assist with initial acceleration, I have not met a single respected strength coach who has told me that power cleans do not help with explosiveness...

 

[BIGFATCOCK]

just do deadlifts really fast

 

[b fold the truth]

really? or are you being sarcastic?

Bill Starr has power cleans in his football player training 3 times a wk & no deadlifts. Why do think theyre not important- at least for a specific sport (football, rugby, etc).

Nope...not being sarcastic.

I have NEVER felt that doing power cleans will MAKE anyone FASTER. It doesn't make a drop of sense to me how they would. Is the exercise meant to be done FAST? Yes, of course. Because it is MEANT to be done fast...does NOT mean that it will make you faster at all.

Technique is the most important factor in those lifts (respectuflly and in my opinion). Strength is not. Of course...that is NOT saying that you don't have to be strong to do a good OLY lift or that OLY lifts will not make you strong(er). Don't read anything into what I'm saying.

I feel that Accomodating Resistance is superior to the OLY lifts to increase one's speed. Doing a box squat with LOTS of band tension teaches the body to EXPLODE faster, faster, faster, and harder, harder, harder, especially in that plane of motion. It builds strength in a range of motion which I feel is very important to the athlete who must explode, grab, and tackle.

I am not a "respected strength coach" so take it for what it is worth. I did become the Assistant Strength Coach for Murray State University and THE coach for their Field part of the Track and Field Team. The first thing that I did in their weight training program was take out the OLY lifts (especially for the first several weeks) and add in box squats with bands and deadlifts. They could deadlift 300-350 for reps with lots of CNS recovery that wasn't a problem or they coulf beat themselves to death doing power cleans with 200.

Of course...I did have them doing the OLY lift of their choice once a week, lightly (instead of deadlifting that day). I also kept the clean and jerk in as one of their ME Upper core exercises as well.

I fully agree with CCJ and his point about doing Plyos.

I have learned that gym training for sport, which is what I do, is quite simple.
1) Get STRONGER ALL OVER
2) Practice your sport

You aren't going to find that Holy Grail exercise that is going to make you strong and a super athlete...just focus on getting your body stronger, staying injury free in the gym (which means safe exercises), and do the most work ON your sport.

Just the opinion of a non-respected athletic trainer.

B True

 

[ChinkNasty]

no hate, always respect outta my corna towards you b fold

I also agree with you with box squatting, along with cleans, a mainstay for athlete that requires explosiveness...although I do feel that power cleans definitely help in that first step when done with box squats

 

[jdevlin1985]

Give the girl some cred guys

...she is not like any other women if you ask me

 

[sigweed]

first of all, respect for playing rugby, esp 7s! hope your CV system is top notch!

anyways, I play for a rep team up here in Canada and our coach has us doing powercleans twice a week then some other form of cleans for the other lifting day... then we also have deadlifts once a week, then RDLs once a week

 

[ruggermu]

Like someone said before good luck with the sevens, that's high paced Rugby. And I agree, no reason you can't do both in the same week.

 

[Kane Fan]

wow a chick that works out and plays Rugby
that's hot lol

do you know form on Power Cleans well enough?
what kind of Volume and Frequency do you usually use?

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

wow a chick that works out and plays Rugby
that's hot lol

do you know form on Power Cleans well enough?
what kind of Volume and Frequency do you usually use?

Im gonna answer this- inspite of you being a Kanes Fan (GO GATORS!!)..LOL.

I learned oly lifts from Tom McGee, a comp. PLr at my gym, so my form's good. I put them on back day 2/wk & cycle them w/deadlifts- one heavy day (5X5) & one light day (3x8-10).

Thats the plan anyway.. what do you guys think?

 

[b fold the truth]

Im gonna answer this- inspite of you being a Kanes Fan (GO GATORS!!)..LOL.

I learned oly lifts from Tom McGee, a comp. PLr at my gym, so my form's good. I put them on back day 2/wk & cycle them w/deadlifts- one heavy day (5X5) & one light day (3x8-10).

Thats the plan anyway.. what do you guys think?

That name sounds REALLY familliar. I've either seen too many REALLY old WSM tapes or he competed in a contest YEARS ago and also coached a few women in strongman too.

Same guy?

B True

 

[Madcow2]

I put them on back day 2/wk & cycle them w/deadlifts- one heavy day (5X5) & one light day (3x8-10).

Thats the plan anyway.. what do you guys think?

Form tends to deteriorate really quickly with higher reps in these lifts, even under light weight. You can keep the total volume and intensity (% 1RM) the same but train with lower reps (i.e. more "sets" if that's how you want to think about it). You'll find that the overwhelming majority of lifters will avoid doing much in the way of higher reps in this exercise just for this reason.

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

Form tends to deteriorate really quickly with higher reps in these lifts, even under light weight. You can keep the total volume and intensity (% 1RM) the same but train with lower reps (i.e. more "sets" if that's how you want to think about it). You'll find that the overwhelming majority of lifters will avoid doing much in the way of higher reps in this exercise just for this reason.

Personally, I coud not agree more. For light work, I would do a lower % of a 1rm and do maybe 10 sets of 2 with 30 seconds rest between sets....something like that.....the olympic lifts are high skill movements, and when you use high reps you get fatigued and form goes to shit and you either get hurt, form bad habbits, ot both. Olympic lifts are unlike a low skill movement like a squat or a bench press, where you can get tired and keep grinding them out one after the other, I would say anything over 5 reps is asking for a form breakdown.

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

I also wanted to note that Starr is not against deadlifts. there is a section in The Strongest Shall Survive called Omit the deadlift, or something along those lines, but the reason Starr gives for dropping it is because a lot of times, even world-class powerlifters tend to round the back and breakdown their form on maximal attempts, and given the fact that his athletes weren't powerlifters or weightlifters, he saw no reason to put them at risk when he felt other exercises could be used that would yield similar effects as a deadlift.

Actually, in his off-season programs at Hopkins, Starr had his kids alternate between deadlifts and power cleans followed by clean pulls on the heavy day. I don't necessarily feel the deadlift is dangerous, but you need to remember that The Strongest Shall Survive is also geared a lot towards high school coaches, and about 95% of high school kids WILL try to do more than they should and they WILL round their backs if you don't watch them like a hawk, and the risk of injury wasn't worth it, especially back in the days where many of the coaches and administration and supporters of athletic programs still frowned upon lifting for fear it would make one "musclebound". It just made life easier, in fact Starr and Tommy Suggs said the optimal set/rep range was 4-6x4-6....but that is complicated and people would forget and play around too much, 5x5 is basic, simple, and easy.

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

Form tends to deteriorate really quickly with higher reps in these lifts, even under light weight. You can keep the total volume and intensity (% 1RM) the same but train with lower reps (i.e. more "sets" if that's how you want to think about it). You'll find that the overwhelming majority of lifters will avoid doing much in the way of higher reps in this exercise just for this reason.

Personally, I coud not agree more. For light work, I would do a lower % of a 1rm and do maybe 10 sets of 2 with 30 seconds rest between sets....something like that.....the olympic lifts are high skill movements, and when you use high reps you get fatigued and form goes to shit and you either get hurt, form bad habbits, ot both. Olympic lifts are unlike a low skill movement like a squat or a bench press, where you can get tired and keep grinding them out one after the other, I would say anything over 5 reps is asking for a form breakdown.

OK!! dumb me- I think I was having a brain cloud thinking of doing 8-10 reps of power cleans...LOL.

I like the 10 sets of 2 w/short rests- makes more sense. Thanks booty daddy Hows your training going? Id like to see Starrs training program for female athletes & see if he would change anything... would be interesting.

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

That name sounds REALLY familliar. I've either seen too many REALLY old WSM tapes or he competed in a contest YEARS ago and also coached a few women in strongman too.

Same guy?

B True

http://www.mageefitness.com/

http://www.mageefitness.com/gallery_photo6.html

"Heaviest Deadlift Ever done in Worlds Strongest Man Contests 1,179lbs.

Fourth Heaviest Squat ever done in Worlds Strongest Man Contests: 955"

 

[Scotsman]

OK!! dumb me- I think I was having a brain cloud thinking of doing 8-10 reps of power cleans...LOL.

I like the 10 sets of 2 w/short rests- makes more sense. Thanks booty daddy Hows your training going? Id like to see Starrs training program for female athletes & see if he would change anything... would be interesting.

If you tell me that you used the "brain cloud" thing from Joe vs. the Volcano I will propose to you right now.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[b fold the truth]

http://www.mageefitness.com/

http://www.mageefitness.com/gallery_photo6.html

"Heaviest Deadlift Ever done in Worlds Strongest Man Contests 1,179lbs.

Fourth Heaviest Squat ever done in Worlds Strongest Man Contests: 955"

I don't think that those records are really "fair" and I'm not sure they still hold...but I do remember him being a great athlete back on some of those old tapes that I have. He was in such good shape that it helped him by being such a great athlete back then when a lot of the competitors were not very "mobile".

Robin Coleman...that was the woman he coached that went to the Worlds. They should have invited her back...

I'd love to meet and talk with him someday. It is always great to talk to someone and get the perspective from someone who has seen so much and been through so much in their strength training and coaching lives.

B True