relative strength and squats question

[wakefib]

i was wondering... since heavy lifts such as squats causes hypertrophy, because of the heavy weight of the bar on the body... so if you were looking for just relative strength and power... would it help to base your lifts around one legged squats so that there isn't such a big load on your body, but you are still getting alot of weight to hit the legs?
any comments?

 

[Cynical Simian]

Or you could do your regular squats without a caloric surplus.

 

[Madcow2]

Bingo - no caloric surplus = no muscle. Bigger squat at same bodyweight = higher relative strength.

 

[wakefib]

makes sense... i guess i didn't really think about that lol
thanks anyways

 

[Madcow2]

Elegant simplicity. It has been said that the best mathematicians are the laziest - meaning rather than brute forcing their way through with tedious work they seek to gain the elusive underlying key that makes everything fall into place. This is one of those cases of getting mired in deep logic regarding exercise when the elegant one stroke path existed on the other side of the equation (i.e. rather than twisting the stimulus in odd forms, just mitigate the undesired response by using diet). We've all been there and we will all be there again, it keeps one from taking oneself too seriously and illustrates the value of getting opinions from others and asking questions.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Elegant simplicity. It has been said that the best mathematicians are the laziest - meaning rather than brute forcing their way through with tedious work they seek to gain the elusive underlying key that makes everything fall into place. This is one of those cases of getting mired in deep logic regarding exercise when the elegant one stroke path existed on the other side of the equation (i.e. rather than twisting the stimulus in odd forms, just mitigate the undesired response by using diet). We've all been there and we will all be there again, it keeps one from taking oneself too seriously and illustrates the value of getting opinions from others and asking questions.

Very true. I find I'm always taking the minmalistic approach in things. I see no reason to waste time, effort, or money (which all kinda end up as the same thing ) if I don't have to. The best way to get from point A to point B is a straight line, right?

 

[b fold the truth]

I squat often and with decently heavy weights and I'm "relatively strong".

Did I miss something?

 

[silver_shadow]

I squat often and with decently heavy weights and I'm "relatively strong".

Did I miss something?

LOL

 

[wakefib]

I squat often and with decently heavy weights and I'm "relatively strong".

Did I miss something?

i am just saying... if you didn't want to gain body mass but still put as much stress on the muscles you are activating during the squat. since people say that squatting heavy makes your whole body grow because of the weight on the body; single leg squats will put just as much stress on the muscles involved in squating without the as much hypertrophy... but thanks for the in put

 

[djeclipse]

The best way to get from point A to point B is a straight line, right?

Unless you're sailing or flying across the ocean..

 

[Madcow2]

i am just saying... if you didn't want to gain body mass but still put as much stress on the muscles you are activating during the squat. since people say that squatting heavy makes your whole body grow because of the weight on the body; single leg squats will put just as much stress on the muscles involved in squating without the as much hypertrophy... but thanks for the in put

It's not correct. Don't think so much about working a muscle and think about load. You can put a lot more on the body in the standard squat than you can a one leg squat. Heavily loading the body through a range of motion is basically stimulus, this is how you get big and strong. You handicap this with the one leg so what you are doing is crushing the efficacy of the resistance program through slashing load (not that one leg squats aren't a worthwhile exercise). This would be the same as me making you perform full squats on roller skates - you'd have to cut the weight quite a bit and there would be no real benefit to strength just some kind of odd balance and coordination which likely won't transfer over into anything performance related for the majority of able bodied humans.

The full squat is a great exercise because of the load - you don't decrease the load to decrease the hypertrophy response, because you give up both strength and hypertrophy when what you really want is to maximize strength and limit hypertrophy. You can easily do this by diet which can take hypertrophy flat or even negative while still increasing strength (although this depends on the degree and the lifter).

 

[36drew]

The best way to get from point A to point B is a straight line, right?

Actually, warping of the space time continuum is the best way to get from point A to point B.

To grasp the concept take a piece of paper and right point A and make a dot on the left hand side. The do the same but right point B and make the dot on the right hand side. Fold the piece of paper to bring the dots together. It would seem the fasted way to venture from point A to point B is not a straight line.

 

[Protobuilder]

Actually, warping of the space time continuum is the best way to get from point A to point B.

To grasp the concept take a piece of paper and right point A and make a dot on the left hand side. The do the same but right point B and make the dot on the right hand side. Fold the piece of paper to bring the dots together. It would seem the fasted way to venture from point A to point B is not a straight line.

Whoa jabrone! WTF??? Can you squat in the space-time continuum? If not, I don't want to be there.

 

[BiggT]

This would be the same as me making you perform full squats on roller skates - you'd have to cut the weight quite a bit and there would be no real benefit to strength just some kind of odd balance and coordination which likely won't transfer over into anything performance related for the majority of able bodied humans.

If only all of the people doing their lifts on Swiss balls would realize this.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

If only all of the people doing their lifts on Swiss balls would realize this.

Yeah, but I saw a video of a guy squatting 135 while standing on a swiss ball once - maybe not strong, but damn impressive.

 

[enigma4dub]

impressive or not, the question being asked is, how does that relate to a real life application? simply put, it does not.

 

[Madcow2]

If only all of the people doing their lifts on Swiss balls would realize this.

I've started a whole new program. I am incorporating the classic 1982 Jane Fonda's Workout - the real no bullshit one where you use leg warmers. This is what made On Golden Pond IMO. I'm going to be doing all of it while balancing on a Swissball - likely never touching the ground even once. I might even superset with kettlebells to bring 3 decades of commercial fitness into one workout.

I expect significant strength, power, speed and accross the board performance gain as well as a balanced holistic flexible aesthetic look - think Brad Pitt post grunge. I should also be able to see through walls and fly short distances [credit to guiness5.0 for joke based on merrits of HIT on BBing.com].

 

[djeclipse]

I've started a whole new program. I am incorporating the classic 1982 Jane Fonda's Workout - the real no bullshit one where you use leg warmers. This is what made On Golden Pond IMO. I'm going to be doing all of it while balancing on a Swissball - likely never touching the ground even once. I might even superset with kettlebells to bring 3 decades of commercial fitness into one workout.

I expect significant strength, power, speed and accross the board performance gain as well as a balanced holistic flexible aesthetic look - think Brad Pitt post grunge. I should also be able to see through walls and fly short distances [credit to guiness5.0 for joke based on merrits of HIT on BBing.com].

Can you post the spreadsheet on your geocities site? I want to try this workout c/w knee high socks and gay ass headband.

 

[BiggT]

As long as they're pink leg warmers.

 

[Madcow2]

They are more of a Mauvre as I am trying to keep with the original theme: http://cgi.ebay.com/Jane-Fonda-Work...Z6478119859QQcategoryZ309QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[blut wump]

I tried one-legged squats on a fitball once. The exercise is good for re-shaping and recolouring your glutes as they hit the floor. I never thought to try leg-warmers.

 

[36drew]

Whoa jabrone! WTF??? Can you squat in the space-time continuum? If not, I don't want to be there.

Hahahahaha. I guess you can't.

 

[Introspective]

They are more of a Mauvre as I am trying to keep with the original theme: http://cgi.ebay.com/Jane-Fonda-Work...Z6478119859QQcategoryZ309QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I might buy this video so i can sit and watch Jane Fonda in that tight outfit after i have finished my afternoon 5x5

 

[djeclipse]

I might buy this video so i can sit and watch Jane Fonda in that tight outfit after i have finished my afternoon 5x5

Well I guess that's one way to work on your "grip strength".

 

[wakefib]

If only all of the people doing their lifts on Swiss balls would realize this.

this is the first time i have heard that doing exercises such as squats on a swiss ball is worthless for function training.
yeah in sports you are never going to stand on such an unstable base, but isn't that the point??
i know for a fact that some professional football players do squats on the stability ball, and do work on the bosu.

 

[Madcow2]

It's not worthless - it just should not be your primary strength exercise. As far as football teams, you can't ruin a great athlete with any reasonable resistance training program. There is just too much going on to have that be make or break. That said, in activities that are very narrowly focused on strength performance differences are night and day.

 

[wakefib]

this has kinda gone off topic, the reason i was asking is because i have to take the bar off my back for awhile (because of an injury) so i am going to use one legged squats and one legged deadlifts to lighten the weight on my spine. i guess i will let you guys know how my gains go..

 

[BiggT]

this has kinda gone off topic, the reason i was asking is because i have to take the bar off my back for awhile (because of an injury) so i am going to use one legged squats and one legged deadlifts to lighten the weight on my spine. i guess i will let you guys know how my gains go..

For your first post, I think that a major problem in sport-specific training today is a lot of de-emphasis on being strong. Granted the athletes aren't competitive weightlifters or powerlifters and shouldn't train as such, but they need to be strong. Sure Having core stability and balance are important, but on say a football field, the guy with nothing but core stability who can't even squat 1.5 times his bodyweight will get killed by the guy who squats double bodyweight in nothing but a belt and who overhead squats bodyweight, because non-equipped lifting does build balance and core stability, along with the whole point of it all, strength....I think if a guy can snatch his bodyweight, he has excellent stability and balance, as well as speed, strength, and explosion.......if a guy does hindu squats on a swiss ball, I think he has stability and balance and not much of anything else applicable to playing a sport.

Kind of like why do incline dumbell presses on a swiss ball, when inclines are for shoulder girdle strength, and you can build much more with a barbell and a bench because you can handle quadruple the weight.....and then you can gain stability through , say, snatching, which trains the stability as well as a million and one other desireable athletic attributes.

Honestly, lol, I'd like to go around to every gym I can and pop all the Swiss balls with a pin. Or at least maybe just take one high school football player with his newly certified PT armed with 'cutting edge information' and get him off a swiss ball and add 100lbs to his raw squat.

As far as what this or that top-level athlete does, it really is not applicable...There are a lot of ingredients making up an NFL football player, and a superior strength training program is not necessarily in there.....training properly will make someone a BETTER athlete than THEY were training improperly or not training at all, thats it....to some strength training and improving themselves that way is the only way they will ever play......but with athletics again, if you have God-given ability and are blessed with the ideal size for your position, then that will always be your ticket.

Just some suggestions about your injury......you can front squat, or you can lunge with dumbells, or overhead squat. Not that there is anything wrong with 1-legged squats, and I obviously know nothing about the extent of your injury, or even what it is for that metter.....just trying to throw some other suggestions out there....good luck working through it though.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

If you have an injury involving the back, you're better off not going one-legged anything, either. Squatting and deadlifting is out of the question.

 

[Protobuilder]

To add to BiggT's post, improved max strength is a prerequisite to improving power and speed. Stability is a precursor to, well, stability.

 

[wakefib]

For your first post, I think that a major problem in sport-specific training today is a lot of de-emphasis on being strong. Granted the athletes aren't competitive weightlifters or powerlifters and shouldn't train as such, but they need to be strong. .

i would have to agree with you that there is a de-emphasis on strength, i would say a significant one at that. i talk to a sport specific train and he told me that basicly everything he gives to his athletes involves balance and stability. there is no benching and not to much normal back squats. i didn't really agree to that extent even though it does make sense that on the football field everything is moving and unstable..i just feel that raw power is important.. and this stability train is a must, but just to add onto your power training.

as far as my back injury i am ashamed to say i used bad form one time during deadlift and injuried my back almost a year now and physio isn't helping...thanks for the advice for the lifts.

 

[Madcow2]

Sadly as free weights and core movements have become more popular and moved back into general fitness and bodybuilding I am hearing more and more about injuries happening from poor technique issues and strength imbalance. To be honest, every time I see someone deadlift the technique is so bad and form potentially injurious that I want to vomit. Squatting isn't much better. People need to learn the lifts and that's very hard on the net and if your only model is the magazines (who frequently feature pictures of lifts being done anywhere from incorrect to downright dangerously) and the other bozos in the gym - that's a tough road.

Anyway - what about belt squats, I think Anthrax Invasion has a link. It will let you at least squat with no weight on your back and can maybe even help due to a semi-traction effect.

 

[blut wump]

If you take a look at some recent posts on AnotherButters's new log, Guinness5.0 posted a link to a belt for belt squats.

 

[wakefib]

i was thinking about that, but i have to figure out a way to do that in my gym... i think i might stand on some step up boards used for the step up classes.
thanks alot guys