Quiestions about madcows 5x5

[Sub-Zero]

2 things...one i want incline. does that mean i insert it someplace, or just replace it and use incline as my bench when it tells me to bench.

question 2. my lower half is already bigger than my upper half, like disproportionately so.

can i not squat 3 times a week and like bench 3 times a week instead or just take out one of the squat days or what do you suggest

 

[view]

1) yes you can sub inclines for flat. or you can do inclines one day and flat on another (way I do)

2) squat monday/ friday, and ditch the wednesday squat. or you could still go mwf but do 20 reppers or hacks or something.

 

[Sub-Zero]

1) yes you can sub inclines for flat. or you can do inclines one day and flat on another (way I do)

2) squat monday/ friday, and ditch the wednesday squat. or you could still go mwf but do 20 reppers or hacks or something.

so what would i do wednesday instead...like bb curl or something?

and also how do you work in incline one day and flat another, if one of the bnech days is 1x5 and the other is 5x5? do you make your 1x5 flat for instance and 5x5 incline?

 

[Sub-Zero]

how bad would it be to put in 5x5 dips with the military day instead of that midweek 5x5 of squat... would i end up over training tris and chest, or would it be acceptable...or maybe something less like 2 or 3 sets of dips?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

No, you can't substitute inclines for flat. Keep the flat bench pressing on Monday and Friday. Take out the military press on Wednesday - replace that with incline bench pressing.

Don't remove the squats! If you keep nothing else in the program, let it be squats. They are key to the entire routine. Do not toy with them. Your upper body will catch up, don't try and prioritize any single point right now. Go for overall bodymass. Toy with it later.

You do Flat Bench Press on Monday for 1x5 and Friday 5x5 (or flip it, it doesn't matter, just adjust the other lifts accordingly). Incline should be done as 5x5 on Wednesday in place of the Military Press.

Don't add in dips or anything. You're trying to toy with the program too much. Stick with it as it is, and give it a go. If you don't like it, don't do it, or tweak it afterwards. You're bound to screw yourself if you tinker with it too much.

If you feel you must do a bicep/tricep movement, throw it in at the end of the week for 2-3 sets of 8-10 reps or so, but it's not going to do anything for you other than satisfy your psychologial cravings.

 

[Madcow2]

Tom's pretty on. You are already pressing every day regardless. Incline for Military on Wednesday is fine. If you have some kind of injury that prevents flat bench a slight incline bench (power rack with a sep bench generally) is fine also. The body works as a system and you can't load as much weight on a standard incline as you can on the flat bench. It's important that your M/F pressing be the same exercise. If you absolutely insist on incline then make it M/F with flat bench or slight incline bench on W. I really suggest you not do it. If this is purely a matter of aesthetics, why not build a ton of muscle and then spend 4 weeks refining it a bit afterward.

The squats are a full body exercise and are designed as the foundation of this program. The Wednesday squats are intengral to the volume loading being used. Some people have insisted on changing the squatting anyway - they will pay for it in the form of sacrificing muscular gains and increases in all the lifts (which translate to more gains down the road). If you are okay with that then so am I but this effectively voids the warranty so to speak. I would be more critical of screwing with the squats than I am of people substituting inverted nude 50 rep cable crossovers for flat bench but like I said, some people absolutely wanted to do it. Also the squats are full range - meaning as low as your body can take you which is past parallel for just about everyone. You stop descending when you bottom out.

Adding arm stuff is fine but they take a beating with 3 days of pressing and pulling. Add a single bicept and a single tricept exercise do them for 3 sets of 8-10 like Tom said.

BTW - I wrote up an entirely new description because the addition of the Table of Contents wiped out the old shitty one that was pasted from FI. It's the top post here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215&page=20&pp=20. The new Table of Contents which might address other questions is here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215

 

[Mithrandir]

I do not go all the way down when i do squats...my ass is big enough, and my hips hurt every now and then (from swimming).

 

[Madcow2]

I do not go all the way down when i do squats...my ass is big enough, and my hips hurt every now and then (from swimming).

More than anything, full depth transfers to the hamstrings and hips for the most part, not just the glutes. Depth is as much an issue of safety as it is proper development and building complete functional ability. Cutting depth loads directly on the knee rather than properly distributing the weight to the hips/hams etc... as was intended by the human body. This is a really good read in the PL forum: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332299

 

[Sub-Zero]

madcow, so if i had to add the bicep curls , abs and shrugs, in for piece of mind, what day would they go on?

would i split it up like 2 sets of bicep curls on monday at the end, needsizes ab routine on wednesday, then 2-3 sets of powershrugs on friday?

and i tried reading the 1x5 thing, and i got confused, i assumed that that was your one set of 5 reps that is HIGHER than your 5x5 weight, so lets say your doing 200 for 5x5, and maybe 225 for 1x5 on bench, then you go to 210 for 5x5 and then 235 for 1x5?

is that right? if not can you clarify

 

[Tom Treutlein]

You got the whole 1x5 and 5x5 thing cleared up. You can obviously do more weight for one set of five reps, rather than five sets of five reps.

As for abs, I do them thrice a week.

Do the curls after your Friday workout. Nothing fancy.

 

[Sub-Zero]

You got the whole 1x5 and 5x5 thing cleared up. You can obviously do more weight for one set of five reps, rather than five sets of five reps.

As for abs, I do them thrice a week.

Do the curls after your Friday workout. Nothing fancy.

so how does this sound, abs 3x a week with, 2-3 sets calves on monday, 2-3 sets power shrugs on wednesday (or should i not have them on deadlift day), and then 2-3 sets biceps on friday?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

That sounds fine, but I'd be wary of overexerting yourself. Just keep a close eye on your tolerances and if you begin to feel overworked, drop the heel raises and curls.

Abs 3x a week is more than okay. I'd try to work them properly, though. Train the TVA, lower abs, obliques, and then upper abs.

 

[Mithrandir]

Yeah I def. felt it more in my hams when I went lower, but also, I did not want them to be sore for deadlifts...so I only go parallel or a little higher..on wednesday's I go parallel ( i dead first)

mith

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Don't stop at parallel. You'll wind up screwing yourself more in the end. If you have to, lower the weights enough so you're comfortable with the lift, then add weight slowly, but with full range of motion and proper form.

 

[Madcow2]

would i split it up like 2 sets of bicep curls on monday at the end, needsizes ab routine on wednesday, then 2-3 sets of powershrugs on friday?

You need to be very careful with powershrugs. That movement is very taxing. Your traps will get hit with all the rowing and the deadlifting. Don't worry about them this time around. Abs and arms are fine but that's a major lift. I think someone was going to perform them from just above the knees and I had him substitute out bent rows completely (PS are very much the same as the power clean and this was actually Starr's original position for the clean anyway). The 5x5 as it's laid out will have you working at 100% capacity. No one has yet set their weights correctly and felt like they had a lot more capacity in weeks 3 and 4. Power shrugs are just too much to lay on top of that unless you've been doing this stuff for a while.

 

[blut wump]

I have a lot of respect for the fitness levels of anyone who can get through weeks three and four of this program and not be groaning under the workload if the weights are set to be such that you're straining adequately in week 3. Everyone who has given any feedback has been utterly relieved to reach the deloading stage.

 

[d3track]

I have a lot of respect for the fitness levels of anyone who can get through weeks three and four of this program and not be groaning under the workload if the weights are set to be such that you're straining adequately in week 3. Everyone who has given any feedback has been utterly relieved to reach the deloading stage.

lol
i'll let you know
my plan now is for week 4 squat and dead to both be 405, and the rows be around 315
should be painful......

 

[Sub-Zero]

You need to be very careful with powershrugs. That movement is very taxing. Your traps will get hit with all the rowing and the deadlifting. Don't worry about them this time around. Abs and arms are fine but that's a major lift. I think someone was going to perform them from just above the knees and I had him substitute out bent rows completely (PS are very much the same as the power clean and this was actually Starr's original position for the clean anyway). The 5x5 as it's laid out will have you working at 100% capacity. No one has yet set their weights correctly and felt like they had a lot more capacity in weeks 3 and 4. Power shrugs are just too much to lay on top of that unless you've been doing this stuff for a while.

okay what about just regular shrugs

 

[d3track]

okay what about just regular shrugs

to be honest
i dont know if you need to throw in shrugs on this routien
do you feel that they lag that much?

 

[Sub-Zero]

to be honest
i dont know if you need to throw in shrugs on this routien
do you feel that they lag that much?

yes.

i used to have no traps, and now i do shrugs and they are there, barely

 

[d3track]

how long have you been doing deads?
to be honest, my traps are getting hit hard right now rowing twice and the day of deads

but if you feel you must, i would say do some db holds, work on the grip at the same time

 

[Madcow2]

how long have you been doing deads?

That would be my question too as well as how much you are pulling in the lift. The regular shrug is such a shitty exercise I'm amazed you are seeing progress at all. Most people don't really develop traps until they start pulling and deadlifting. The powershrug is just an very heavy abbreviated clean (cleans are also phenomenal for trap/upper back development) which is fairly similar to a partial dead with a shrug.

 

[Sub-Zero]

That would be my question too as well as how much you are pulling in the lift. The regular shrug is such a shitty exercise I'm amazed you are seeing progress at all. Most people don't really develop traps until they start pulling and deadlifting. The powershrug is just an very heavy abbreviated clean (cleans are also phenomenal for trap/upper back development) which is fairly similar to a partial dead with a shrug.

o.

maybe im seeing traps from deads since i started doing those heavy about the same times as shrugs

fiiine i wont do shrugs.

thanks for all you guyses help, ill probably start in a month if not earlier...

one final question: should i take a week off before i start this or dont bother

 

[Madcow2]

one final question: should i take a week off before i start this or dont bother

It really depends on your current training and level of conditioning. It won't hurt to take a week off. The one thing that I will advise is that if any exercise is new to you, start doing it some before the program. This thing requires some heavy weight and volume fairly fast so you don't want to find out you have a weak link and get injured.

 

[Sub-Zero]

It really depends on your current training and level of conditioning. It won't hurt to take a week off. The one thing that I will advise is that if any exercise is new to you, start doing it some before the program. This thing requires some heavy weight and volume fairly fast so you don't want to find out you have a weak link and get injured.

well i lift heavy (for me- im pretty weak), and i did needsizes 5x5 before


EDIT: i read exersise as routine.

yeah iv done all the exersises

thanks so much for ur help tho man

 

[needsize]

That would be my question too as well as how much you are pulling in the lift. The regular shrug is such a shitty exercise I'm amazed you are seeing progress at all. Most people don't really develop traps until they start pulling and deadlifting. The powershrug is just an very heavy abbreviated clean (cleans are also phenomenal for trap/upper back development) which is fairly similar to a partial dead with a shrug.

I've always wondered about this. I deadlift more than anyone I ahve ever trained with, ie can do an easy 6 reps on 550lbs competely raw. But I have always had the worlds shittiest traps. Now that I've incorporated mucho more shrugs into my routines, they have doubled in size
But this doesnt make sense to me

 

[Madcow2]

I've always wondered about this. I deadlift more than anyone I ahve ever trained with, ie can do an easy 6 reps on 550lbs competely raw. But I have always had the worlds shittiest traps. Now that I've incorporated mucho more shrugs into my routines, they have doubled in size
But this doesnt make sense to me

That's a huge oddity. I can't say I've ever seen or heard of that before. Maybe there's something in your musculature, leverages and/or your technique that for whatever reason doesn't load the traps heavily when you deadlift. It isn't shitty trap genetics because obviously they are growing from shrugs so maybe they aren't getting recruited well - only a hypothesis, I'm just kind of stumped by that one. If direct trap work is your thing, you might really love those powershrugs. They are night and day compared to standard barbell shrugs. That's one of the few lifts that I fully and totally warranty to provide very visible results in the mirror in a few weeks. I can honestly say that every single person who I have ever had try them has never gone back to regular shrugging again.

I still have no idea on why your traps don't respond to deads though, usually (which used to be always) it's the complete opposite in that regular shrugging does nothing and the second one starts to pull from the floor they errupt out of your back. If you use anabolics that can also play a part in the effectiveness of the regular shrug - exercises that would normally not result in much progress (a la isolation work) become more effective in this scenario. It still doesn't explain the ineffectiveness of the deads to decently develop your traps but this might provide insight into why regular shrugging has worked well. I'm not accusing you of drugs or passing judgement (I've used them so I'd have nothing to stand on) but you look pretty stacked in your avatar so it comes to mind as a possible factor in the success of the shrug.