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Protein Misconceptions
- Thread starter 2Thick
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This is fun.
v. skirt·ed, skirt·ing, skirts
v. tr.
To evade, as by circumlocution: skirted the controversial issue
v. skirt·ed, skirt·ing, skirts
v. tr.
To evade, as by circumlocution: skirted the controversial issue
i've known 2thick since i first registered and became a member in July of 2000.
he knows what he's talking about and he's a good guy. if you come back with any response to his statements, as long as it's done in a respectful, intelligent way, he always listens.
i've even seen him concede to a few ideas before..but of course this was a long time ago..long ago..before he was an asshole LOL j/k bro
kak
he knows what he's talking about and he's a good guy. if you come back with any response to his statements, as long as it's done in a respectful, intelligent way, he always listens.
i've even seen him concede to a few ideas before..but of course this was a long time ago..long ago..before he was an asshole LOL j/k bro
kak
Rio 2001
New member
Ahhnnn, sorry to interrupt, but is the protein debate over?
If not, I´d like to say just a few words if I may..
First, as for the amount of protein I agree most people take far too much, there is suficient evidence to not go over 1g/lb/day when off and I´m adding 30% to that when on, so 1,3g/lb/day, but that is not scientifically based, it´s just my oppinion that when "on" you get more muscle out of an even more positive nitrogen balance.
As for veggies being a better protein source that would not be true, if you consider it specifically from the protein quality/bioavaiability/point of view.For that sake, animal protein is better.But a good diet plan is not all about protein,and eating veggies, crucyphers, green leafs, are ESSENTIAL to a healthy body.I just never thought of veggies as " muscle proteins", but they sure are essential in the anabolic process.
I dug up some related articles for those who can´t go to the library...
Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes
M. A. Tarnopolsky, S. A. Atkinson, J. D. MacDougall, A. Chesley, S. Phillips and H. P. Schwarcz
Department of Pediatrics, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Leucine kinetic and nitrogen balance (NBAL) methods were used to determine the dietary protein requirements of strength athletes (SA) compared with sedentary subjects (S). Individual subjects were randomly assigned to one of three protein intakes: low protein (LP) = 0.86 g protein.kg-1.day-1, moderate protein (MP) = 1.40 g protein.kg-1.day-1, or high protein (HP) = 2.40 g protein.kg-1.day-1 for 13 days for each dietary treatment. NBAL was measured and whole body protein synthesis (WBPS) and leucine oxidation were determined from L-[1-13C]leucine turnover. NBAL data were used to determine that the protein intake for zero NBAL for S was 0.69 g.kg-1.day-1 and for SA was 1.41 g.kg-1.day-1. A suggested recommended intake for S was 0.89 g.kg-1.day-1 and for SA was 1.76 g.kg-1.day-1. For SA, the LP diet did not provide adequate protein and resulted in an accommodated state (decreased WBPS vs. MP and HP), and the MP diet resulted in a state of adaptation [increase in WBPS (vs. LP) and no change in leucine oxidation (vs. LP)]. The HP diet did not result in increased WBPS compared with the MP diet, but leucine oxidation did increase significantly, indicating a nutrient overload. For S the LP diet provided adequate protein, and increasing protein intake did not increase WBPS. On the HP diet leucine oxidation increased for S. These results indicated that the MP and HP diets were nutrient overloads for S. There were no effects of varying protein intake on indexes of lean body mass (creatinine excretion, body density) for either group. In summary, protein requirements for athletes performing strength training are greater than for sedentary individuals and are above current Canadian and US recommended daily protein intake requirements for young healthy males.
Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass
M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall and S. A. Atkinson
Department of Physical Education and Pediatrics, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
The present study examined the effects of training status (endurance exercise or body building) on nitrogen balance, body composition, and urea excretion during periods of habitual and altered protein intakes. Experiments were performed on six elite bodybuilders, six elite endurance athletes, and six sedentary controls during a 10-day period of normal protein intake followed by a 10-day period of altered protein intake. The nitrogen balance data revealed that bodybuilders required 1.12 times and endurance athletes required 1.67 times more daily protein than sedentary controls. Lean body mass (density) was maintained in bodybuilders consuming 1.05 g protein.kg-1.day-1. Endurance athletes excreted more total daily urea than either bodybuilders or controls. We conclude that bodybuilders during habitual training require a daily protein intake only slightly greater than that for sedentary individuals in the maintenance of lean body mass and that endurance athletes require daily protein intakes greater than either bodybuilders or sedentary individuals to meet the needs of protein catabolism during exercise.
Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders
P. W. Lemon, M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall and S. A. Atkinson
School of Biomedical Sciences, Kent State University, Ohio 44242.
This randomized double-blind cross-over study assessed protein (PRO) requirements during the early stages of intensive bodybuilding training and determined whether supplemental PRO intake (PROIN) enhanced muscle mass/strength gains. Twelve men [22.4 +/- 2.4 (SD) yr] received an isoenergetic PRO (total PROIN 2.62 g.kg-1.day-1) or carbohydrate (CHO; total PROIN 1.35 g.kg-1.day-1) supplement for 1 mo each during intensive (1.5 h/day, 6 days/wk) weight training. On the basis of 3-day nitrogen balance (NBAL) measurements after 3.5 wk on each treatment (8.9 +/- 4.2 and -3.4 +/- 1.9 g N/day, respectively), the PROIN necessary for zero NBAL (requirement) was 1.4-1.5 g.kg-1.day-1. The recommended intake (requirement + 2 SD) was 1.6-1.7 g.kg-1.day-1. However, strength (voluntary and electrically evoked) and muscle mass [density, creatinine excretion, muscle area (computer axial tomography scan), and biceps N content] gains were not different between diet treatments. These data indicate that, during the early stages of intensive bodybuilding training, PRO needs are approximately 100% greater than current recommendations but that PROIN increases from 1.35 to 2.62 g.kg-1.day-1 do not enhance muscle mass/strength gains, at least during the 1st mo of training. Whether differential gains would occur with longer training remains to be determined.
If not, I´d like to say just a few words if I may..
First, as for the amount of protein I agree most people take far too much, there is suficient evidence to not go over 1g/lb/day when off and I´m adding 30% to that when on, so 1,3g/lb/day, but that is not scientifically based, it´s just my oppinion that when "on" you get more muscle out of an even more positive nitrogen balance.
As for veggies being a better protein source that would not be true, if you consider it specifically from the protein quality/bioavaiability/point of view.For that sake, animal protein is better.But a good diet plan is not all about protein,and eating veggies, crucyphers, green leafs, are ESSENTIAL to a healthy body.I just never thought of veggies as " muscle proteins", but they sure are essential in the anabolic process.
I dug up some related articles for those who can´t go to the library...
Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes
M. A. Tarnopolsky, S. A. Atkinson, J. D. MacDougall, A. Chesley, S. Phillips and H. P. Schwarcz
Department of Pediatrics, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Leucine kinetic and nitrogen balance (NBAL) methods were used to determine the dietary protein requirements of strength athletes (SA) compared with sedentary subjects (S). Individual subjects were randomly assigned to one of three protein intakes: low protein (LP) = 0.86 g protein.kg-1.day-1, moderate protein (MP) = 1.40 g protein.kg-1.day-1, or high protein (HP) = 2.40 g protein.kg-1.day-1 for 13 days for each dietary treatment. NBAL was measured and whole body protein synthesis (WBPS) and leucine oxidation were determined from L-[1-13C]leucine turnover. NBAL data were used to determine that the protein intake for zero NBAL for S was 0.69 g.kg-1.day-1 and for SA was 1.41 g.kg-1.day-1. A suggested recommended intake for S was 0.89 g.kg-1.day-1 and for SA was 1.76 g.kg-1.day-1. For SA, the LP diet did not provide adequate protein and resulted in an accommodated state (decreased WBPS vs. MP and HP), and the MP diet resulted in a state of adaptation [increase in WBPS (vs. LP) and no change in leucine oxidation (vs. LP)]. The HP diet did not result in increased WBPS compared with the MP diet, but leucine oxidation did increase significantly, indicating a nutrient overload. For S the LP diet provided adequate protein, and increasing protein intake did not increase WBPS. On the HP diet leucine oxidation increased for S. These results indicated that the MP and HP diets were nutrient overloads for S. There were no effects of varying protein intake on indexes of lean body mass (creatinine excretion, body density) for either group. In summary, protein requirements for athletes performing strength training are greater than for sedentary individuals and are above current Canadian and US recommended daily protein intake requirements for young healthy males.
Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass
M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall and S. A. Atkinson
Department of Physical Education and Pediatrics, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
The present study examined the effects of training status (endurance exercise or body building) on nitrogen balance, body composition, and urea excretion during periods of habitual and altered protein intakes. Experiments were performed on six elite bodybuilders, six elite endurance athletes, and six sedentary controls during a 10-day period of normal protein intake followed by a 10-day period of altered protein intake. The nitrogen balance data revealed that bodybuilders required 1.12 times and endurance athletes required 1.67 times more daily protein than sedentary controls. Lean body mass (density) was maintained in bodybuilders consuming 1.05 g protein.kg-1.day-1. Endurance athletes excreted more total daily urea than either bodybuilders or controls. We conclude that bodybuilders during habitual training require a daily protein intake only slightly greater than that for sedentary individuals in the maintenance of lean body mass and that endurance athletes require daily protein intakes greater than either bodybuilders or sedentary individuals to meet the needs of protein catabolism during exercise.
Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders
P. W. Lemon, M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall and S. A. Atkinson
School of Biomedical Sciences, Kent State University, Ohio 44242.
This randomized double-blind cross-over study assessed protein (PRO) requirements during the early stages of intensive bodybuilding training and determined whether supplemental PRO intake (PROIN) enhanced muscle mass/strength gains. Twelve men [22.4 +/- 2.4 (SD) yr] received an isoenergetic PRO (total PROIN 2.62 g.kg-1.day-1) or carbohydrate (CHO; total PROIN 1.35 g.kg-1.day-1) supplement for 1 mo each during intensive (1.5 h/day, 6 days/wk) weight training. On the basis of 3-day nitrogen balance (NBAL) measurements after 3.5 wk on each treatment (8.9 +/- 4.2 and -3.4 +/- 1.9 g N/day, respectively), the PROIN necessary for zero NBAL (requirement) was 1.4-1.5 g.kg-1.day-1. The recommended intake (requirement + 2 SD) was 1.6-1.7 g.kg-1.day-1. However, strength (voluntary and electrically evoked) and muscle mass [density, creatinine excretion, muscle area (computer axial tomography scan), and biceps N content] gains were not different between diet treatments. These data indicate that, during the early stages of intensive bodybuilding training, PRO needs are approximately 100% greater than current recommendations but that PROIN increases from 1.35 to 2.62 g.kg-1.day-1 do not enhance muscle mass/strength gains, at least during the 1st mo of training. Whether differential gains would occur with longer training remains to be determined.
c3bodybuilding
New member
I had a nice post before on the other thread, I post and it was locked already!
Okay, to the matter at hand, I find that more carbs are more important to my gains than more protein. 2thick brings an interesting point to the table, health. Or rather the quality of life. I was scared with the 20 years down the line comment. With so many bodybuilders having kidney problems, maybe we should all look a little further into his advice here.
Tomorrow I am going to do more research on this. I can't wait to read the full report 2thick has prepared on this. Hopefully it is posted soon.
ps. 2thick, I am going to give cleans a try next week. When you say you follow three days on, one day off, how do you break your body parts down?
Okay, to the matter at hand, I find that more carbs are more important to my gains than more protein. 2thick brings an interesting point to the table, health. Or rather the quality of life. I was scared with the 20 years down the line comment. With so many bodybuilders having kidney problems, maybe we should all look a little further into his advice here.
Tomorrow I am going to do more research on this. I can't wait to read the full report 2thick has prepared on this. Hopefully it is posted soon.
ps. 2thick, I am going to give cleans a try next week. When you say you follow three days on, one day off, how do you break your body parts down?
If you don´t need more than 1,5 grams protein / lb, then, me being 158 pounds, dieting at 2000 kcal/day, would have about 32% of calories coming from protein, correct?
My question is, if I have less protein, then I´ll need the carbs (or fats) to replace it, which gets me to the question:
What´s a good DIET ratio, given that you don´t need a lot of protein? 40 carbs/ 32 protein / 28 fat? Or more like 50c/32p/18f??
Wouldn´t that be to much carbs to cut?
thanx
My question is, if I have less protein, then I´ll need the carbs (or fats) to replace it, which gets me to the question:
What´s a good DIET ratio, given that you don´t need a lot of protein? 40 carbs/ 32 protein / 28 fat? Or more like 50c/32p/18f??
Wouldn´t that be to much carbs to cut?
thanx
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