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Pre-juice 5x5: Darkness on the Horizon

Guinness5.0

Guinness5.0

New member
I'm planning on running an AAS cycle in a month or two and in the mean time I'm gonna ride the 5x5 train a bit. Lots of people refer to juicing as "going to the darkside" and since I'm really clever ( :rolleyes: ) I was able to come up with that great title.

I'm gonna use the cookie-cutter dual factor 5x5 with minor adjustments based on the idea that I ought to be increasing the workload of my successive training cycles bit by bit:

M- Backsquat 5x5
Bench 5x5
Power clean 5x5
BB curls/'tricep' dips 2 sets of 8 each, superset (ugh) just to save time
Decline situps

W-Front squats 5x5
OHP 5x5
Conventional deads 5x5
Pullups 5x5
Farmer's walk

F-Backsquat 1x5
Bench 5x5
Power clean 5x5
Same arm/ab stuff as mon.

So overall there's a bit more workload than the original. However, the cleans will be quite a bit lighter than the rows they replace so I don't think the overall tonnage will be much different.

Also, if anyone cares to check my last 5x5 run, here's a link to that journal:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399754&highlight=journal+5x5+madcow2
 
Jim Ouini said:
You starting next week? This should be fun...
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I've already started. I didn't think I'd be on the boards much with no computer but the library is on my way to/from work so it's really easy to just pop in and waste some time :) Plus I've got to get some things together for my return to higher learning, so I gotta be online a lot.

Here's what I've done so far:
M
Squat 275x5x5
-much tougher than expected, but still easy :)
Bench 225x5x5
-same as above
Power clean 135x5x5
-I'm counting on improving my proficiency at power cleans at a rate to coincide with the poundage increases week-to-week. It's probably not the best move but I gotta get good at these somehow
Arms -- BB curls/dips, 65 lbs./bw, 2 sets 0f 8 each
Decline situps x15x2

W
Front squat 185x5x5
-kinda uncomfortable -- when my elbows are high the bar pushes against my throat harder than I'd like. My forearms are pretty long so my wrist flexibilty is gonna have to improve markedly.
OHP 135x5x5
-cake
Deads 285x5x5
-harder than i'd have liked
Pullups BWx5x5
-straps make all the difference for me. Soon I'll be adding weight to these for the first time ever :)
Farmers walk 95 pound dbs, 4 walks ~30 yards (guess)
-these are cool. They seem like they would make a great re/prehab exercise - I felt loosened up after 'em. Plus my grip really sucks, so this along with some grippers should help a lot.

Hey madcow, is it OK that I still feel kinda beat up from HST? I assume that this week and next will serve as adequate deloading, then I'll be pushing again. Sound about right?
 
Isolation? You really have gone to the dark side. I'm devastated!

Seriously though, good luck. I can't wait to see what results you're gonna pull out of your ass with 5x5 + AAS.
 
Jim Ouini said:
What's your Week 4/9 targets? I guess you can add a bit to your last HST workout?
Click to expand...
week 4/9 targets
squat 5x5/3x3 355/405
1x5/1x3 370/420
OHP 5x5/3x3 180/200
Dead 5x5/3x3 380/430

Still pondering where exactly to target bench/clean.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
W
Front squat 185x5x5
-kinda uncomfortable -- when my elbows are high the bar pushes against my throat harder than I'd like. My forearms are pretty long so my wrist flexibilty is gonna have to improve markedly.
Click to expand...


Welcome to the wonderful world of front squats. Unless you are a genetic freak - you should feel like you are pushing into your windpipe. Hence the need for lower reps/multiple sets with this lift. Otherwise you are carrying the load more on your hands and on your upper chest, making for an awkward position and dangerous load on the wrists.

Good luck with the cleans. One other way to measure progress other than load is ease of movement (technique improvement) and the explosiveness you develop week to week.

Best of luck.


Oh - and uh, no Guinness for you for a couple of weeks. Have fun with that one buddy!!
 
can someone point me to the 5x5 plan nuts and bolts...

i'm kinda lost reading these things without knowing the info behind the program...

only thing i question is the frequency of the leg training...? how are you getting around the recovery times...? if i did my legs on Monday, by Wednesday i have a hard time even thinking about doing legs... :(
 
diesel gli said:
only thing i question is the frequency of the leg training...? how are you getting around the recovery times...? if i did my legs on Monday, by Wednesday i have a hard time even thinking about doing legs... :(
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The thing to remeber is that there's really only two tough weeks. You couldn't really hit legs heavy and hard w/ volume indefinitely, so you work up to it, hit it hard, then back off and allow for recovery.


Here's a great article for you. Covers it very well:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Hey madcow, is it OK that I still feel kinda beat up from HST? I assume that this week and next will serve as adequate deloading, then I'll be pushing again. Sound about right?
Click to expand...

You'll find out. Just play it by ear and if you have to deload early that's okay. Watch your performance though, if it starts to really dip on lifts as you are just beginning to load (or before which is worse), you have to watch revisit this. But if you can make it through even not setting new PRs - you are still loading, the rebound should take care of you. You'll just have to be very careful if you intend to build to records in the 3x3 phase again and make sure you recover well in weeks 5/6.

Wish I could give you a yes/no but it's a learning process and an impossible call over the net. The safest move is to start fully recovered but that's not always optimal for long term planning. It's getting a feel for the grey areas that lets you navigate them.
 
MC2-

Cool. I think I'll push on to see what happens. If I have to bail out early then at least I'll learn what it feels like to be too "loaded" going in to the program.
 
Good times...looking forward to seeing what you and the DF version can do this time around. Good luck, although I guess the whole point of planning your training cycles is that you're not relying on luck.

Also, belated congratulations on your unsuccessful cut/successful recomp.
 
Week 1 -- FRIDAY



Squat 1x5: 135x10x3, 225x5, 245x5, 275x5, 295x5
-I really think fatigue has dissipated notably since monday. These felt like they should - nice and light. EDIT: I did 3 sets w/ 135 because I live in the Chicago area and it was like 20 degrees - I was cold to the core.

Bench 5x5: 225
-easier than monday (same weight). I am going to revert back to 1x5/5x5 for bench. For the record, my current bench 1x5 PR is 295, which was tough but not all out ball-bustingly excruciating, and later that week for my 5x5 PR attempt I just barely missed 285. So 295/285 will be my week 3 targets for 1x5/5x5 respectively. Week 3 will be quite tough this way without the extra volume. Hopefully I'll end up with new 1x5/5x5 PRs of 305/295 in week 4.

Power clean 5x5: 155
-I think I've got these really close to perfect. I am brushing my shirt with the bar occasionally on the way up, and whipping my elbows around has become automatic (finally ;)). The only problem I foresee is not dipping enough once the weight starts to climb. With 155 the bar lands high w/out my having to dip down at all.

Fluff: BB curls 75x8x2, upright 'tricep' dips BWx10x2, weighted decline situps (BW+25)X15x2
 
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Guinness5.0 said:
Squat 1x5: 135x10x3, 225x5, 245x5, 275x5, 295x5
-I really think fatigue has dissipated notably since monday. These felt like they should - nice and light. EDIT: I did all those sets w/ 135 because I live in the Chicago area and it was like 20 degrees - I was cold to the core.
Click to expand...

Nice work, although it irks me a little that you're doing my Week 9 1 x 3 in Week 1 ;)
 
Week 2

MONDAY

Squat 5x5 warmups, 315
-Pretty easy

Bench 1x5 135x14, 225x5, 245x5, 255x5, 265x5, 225x8
-Screwy I know, but all these weights are easy so I didn't do all the warnmups and added a backoff instead.

Power cleans ?x? 135x5, 155x5, 165x3x2, 185x3, 205x2
-These are coming along swimmingly. I had to dip just a bit at 185 but it happened smoothly enough. The bar stays close, the movement's all hips and traps, and it racks great!

BB curls/'tricep' dips 85x8x2/BWx12x2

Decline situps BWx15x2
-Still had DOMS from Friday. Looks like I should keep ab work in all my cycles. I think my abs are showing a bit more just from the little direct work I've done lately.


BTW gut is down to 38.75 inches (another ~.25 since HST)
 
too late now... but i'd have you decondition for a week before the 5x5, both to recover from fatigue and decondition the muscle tissue for more growth.

its always a good idea to take a week off between workout cycles or when switching a routine
 
Casual, I'm guessing you haven't been reading up on the whole deconditioning thing much anymore. People over on the HST board, as well as Lyle's board, have realized that SDing doesn't do much to decondition the muscles, and that deloading is superior. Of course, deconditioning serves another purpose, but not the one it was originally sought out to.
 
Anthrax Invasion said:
Yeah, deloading is becoming the new thing. People will take the week off as per SD, but more for the psychological benefits, as well as allow the connective tissues some time off.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10249&highlight=Strategic+Deconditioning

That thread has a lot of discussion between Lyle, nwlifter, and dkm (two HST board veterans) on the entire matter. It gets pretty technical as it goes on. It's a good read outside of that, anyway.
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That was a pretty neat piece (I actually skimmed through the whole thing). Even moreso because it explains the RBE question I got the other day http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=443231. Funny, I basically sent the guy to FI and Hypertrophy Research so he could talk to Ron/NWLifter. I took the time to look at the HST discussion he referenced and I think this is the other half. I think the science aspect is pretty neat now that little by little we are understanding a bit more about the mechanisms of hypertrophy.
 
Tweakle said:
we can almost fit into the same pants now :)

good luck with this one, when are you adding the super supps to your diet?
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Very soon. Possibly today. Just waiting for my pins to arrive.

The plan was to run this training cycle, then start something new with gear. But I've got everything in place and I know what I want to do training-wise (not much different from what I'm doing now) so I see no reason to wait :D
 
Part man - Part chemical. No weight would be his master.

I'm planning to get a full medical check-up in the New Year which could result in my taking the plunge. Good luck with the progress.
 
blut wump said:
No weight would be his master.
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This cycle does have to do (in part) with my excruciatingly slow deadlift progress. In my last two cycles I found that I ended up a good bit stronger after all was said and done. For example, on db inclines I was only working up to 100's pre-cycle, and afterwards I was able to use 120's. I'm hoping to blaze past 5 plates on deads during this one and net a 500 pound dead for the long haul.

And I want some goddamn abs for once in my life, but I don't want to turn into a weakling in the process of getting 'em :D
 
It can be frustrating when a lift refuses to budge and it's not as though there's any glory in being natural. Some might suggest that it'd be better to fix the problem at a lower weight than a higher one, though, assuming you'll hit another sticking plateau later. With any luck the nandrolones will help with your back, anyway, and that could be all you need to get the deadlift moving again in line with your squat.
 
Week 2 -- WEDNESDAY

Front squat warmup to 205x5x5
-Getting easier. I've started to power clean it up and it seems like it racks better. Maybe the somewhat uncomfortable PC dials back the relative discomfort of front squats :D. Seriously though, these felt better. I think some of it is just acclimating to having a bar pushing on my windpipe, which ain't exactly natural :P

Deadlift 325x5x4, 365x5
-I wanted to see how 365 would feel, and I figured a 200 pound jump in workload for this session would be inconsequential. It felt fine, so I may try 370 next week.

Standing OHP 155x5x5
-pretty easy. I've been making sure to really lock it out at the top, meaning squeezing my traps hard at the top w/ the bar over the back of my head and really holding that bar steady for a count. It seems like a good idea (I've been re-reading Starting Strength - it's replaced the stack of magazines in my bathroom). I will probably do these before deads next week as I find that aftera fairly heavy dead session my OHP suffers.

Pullups BWx5x5
-I didn't add weight. I'm gonna add a 25 lb plate next week. I'm too self-concious to use a ten w/ a pullup belt :rainbow:

Grip work Static bb holds: 315x4.278565 seconds, 225x~30 secondsx2, plate pinches (2 10's smooth side out): 1 minute each hand, 45 seconds each hand
-good times. I ordered a CoC #1 today, so plate pinches and grippers will be my mainstays in terms of grip work (I ordered the #2 and #3 last year - #3 is still in the package :P)

Good workout. Not a walk in the park but still pretty easy overall. I know it's easy when I rest less than 2 minutes b/t sets on deads. Another plus was that a hottie I've been chatting with lately said I had the best squat form she's ever seen. Turns out she's into powerliftinig and wants to pull 300 in the near future. She asked when I usually train and said she might want to bounce questions off me. Needless to say it made my night.

And my pins didn't come :( But they shipped Monday via Priority Mail so I hope they'll be here Friday at the latest.

Also, I bet I'm the library's most frequent visitor. They actually have a library cop. Talk about an easy gig - it's always the same guy (so far anyway) and he just stands around and talks to the librarians.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Another plus was that a hottie I've been chatting with lately said I had the best squat form she's ever seen.
Click to expand...

Wait til she sees your backsquat :p J/K G5.0 it's all good.

Guinness5.0 said:
I've been making sure to really lock it out at the top, meaning squeezing my traps hard at the top w/ the bar over the back of my head and really holding that bar steady for a count
Click to expand...

I have real problems doing this - I'm going to have to dig into SS tonight and see what's up.

Guinness5.0 said:
Pullups BWx5x5
-I didn't add weight. I'm gonna add a 25 lb plate next week. I'm too self-concious to use a ten w/ a pullup belt
Click to expand...

*Looks at logbook* :sulk:
 
Jim Ouini said:
*Looks at logbook* :sulk:
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If anyone should feel silly it's me - rather than adhere to the principle of progressive resistance I'm letting my ego dictate my increase.

Youth is wasted on the young :)

EDIT: and BTW, she was referring to my backsquat - she just didn't approach me on monday :blow:
 
Week 2 -- FRIDAY

Squat 1x5 135x10x2, 185x5, 225x5, 275x5, 315x5, 350x5
-Pretty good. The last rep was a bit tough but I wasnt using the valsalva technique, just flexing my abs.

Bench 5x5 260
-Pretty easy. I used a thin bar and it felt kinda odd. 285 is gonna be rough.

Power clean 135x5x2, 155x3x2, 185x3x2, 205x3x3
-Gettin' more comfy. I had my hottie friend check my form - mostly I wanna make sure the bar stays close to my body. Everything else I'm confident on. She said it was really close, so that's good.

Curls/Dips 95x8x2/BWx15, BWx13
-Gonna add weight to dips from here on.

Well the easy stuff's over. PRs from now on. Here are Monday's targets:
Squat 5x5: 350 (5 lb. PR and no belt this time)
Bench 1x5: 295 (equal previous PR)
Power clean 1x3: 225 (PR of sorts - if I get it it'll be the first time w/ 225 and good form)
 
Nice workout Gee. You'll nail those goals come Monday.

What exactly is the valsalva technique? I know you mentioned it before, but I never got an answer.
 
It's official: I'm a cheater :D

So it's 100mg of test prop. and 75 mg. tren acetate EOD for the next few weeks. Here're my stats as of this morning:

Resting heart rate: 54 BPM (I figured it was worth seeing if sauce would jack up my heart rate)

Weight: 240
Neck: 18"
Shoulders: 53.25"
Chest (lats flexed): 48.75"
Belly (abs flexed): 39" (up from ~38.5 - got a bit sloppy on diet - too many huge burritos :))
Waist: 38.1"
Right arm flexed: A hair over 16.75"
Left arm flexed: a hair under 16.75"
R and L forearm: 13.75"
R thigh flexed: 27"
L thigh flexed: 26"

So my arms are nearly symetrical, but my legs are not. I'm not surprised as I feel like I lean ever so slightly to the right on squats. I guess it's confirmed.

I'll post the pics I took when I measured soon.
 
RipStone said:
Nice workout Gee. You'll nail those goals come Monday.

What exactly is the valsalva technique? I know you mentioned it before, but I never got an answer.
Click to expand...
Basically, you take a big breath into your belly, hold it, and push your abs out (harder to describe than to actually do :)). This stabilizes the spine from the inside, in addtion to the stabilization that the spinal erectors create.

I'll type a better explanation after I rewiew Rippetoe's description in Starting Strength.
 
Thought I'd check this out.....everything looks good....I love prop....nothing like fast-acting test, you inject, and within 12 hours you're sex drive is through the roof, lol. Tren will help with your goal of better body composition for sure.

Training-wise you look like you know yourself.....I am liking the lower reps on the power cleans, thats what I do on them, 1-3 reps, I don't know how the hell people can progress with good form doing 5's or more.

Good stuff.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
It's official: I'm a cheater :D
Click to expand...

Didn't want to take on those PRs by yourself, eh? ;)

Needless to say, things are looking good for Monday. (insert bro-speak encouragement here)


In response to your K message question about my training, I'm doing the Single-Factor 5x5 with the typical substitutions/additions (non-olympic lifts, standing press, chins, etc.). I started lifting a little over four months ago, so hopefully I can get quite a bit more mileage out of it without having to switch things up too much.

Rip, part of the explanation Rippetoe gives in SS is to think of what you'd do if you had to move something heavy in real life (I think he uses pushing a car as an example): you take a deep breath, tighten up your body, and don't exhale until you're done. Like Guinness said, it's difficult to explain but actually very natural and helpful.
 
What plans do you have to adjust your training with the juice? Are you going to run an intensity phase or, maybe, just deload and run straight back into loading?

Looking forward to your ongoing logs. Good luck.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Basically, you take a big breath into your belly, hold it, and push your abs out (harder to describe than to actually do :)). This stabilizes the spine from the inside, in addtion to the stabilization that the spinal erectors create.

I'll type a better explanation after I rewiew Rippetoe's description in Starting Strength.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. So thats what guys like Dave Tate mean when they say have a belly fully of air when you lift.
 
 
blut wump said:
What plans do you have to adjust your training with the juice? Are you going to run an intensity phase or, maybe, just deload and run straight back into loading?

Looking forward to your ongoing logs. Good luck.
Click to expand...
Thanks bud.

I'm planning to load as I have been for a bit 'til a deload is needed (I may add another workout w/ front squats, power cleans, and push presses - if I do that I'll do rows instead of cleans on M/F and add the extra workout on saturdays). I imagine that I'll load, deload, step back into a volume phase, then to intensity and hopefully turn off the juice before I get into too much fatigue.

But I'm not sure. I could also go: volume, deload into an intensity phase (just for giggles to see where my dead/squat are) then back into volume and end the juice before too much fatigue sets in.

BTW I'm planning on trying Westside out after this. Been reading up on it and it seems like a decent program to run post-gear: high intensity on the main stuff and I can tweak the workload/volume easily via the assistance work.
 
I have a Westside .pdf file from some time back. It's got a pretty detailed outline of WSB stuff. PM me if you want me to send it your way, Guinness.
 
Anthrax Invasion said:
I have a Westside .pdf file from some time back. It's got a pretty detailed outline of WSB stuff. PM me if you want me to send it your way, Guinness.
Click to expand...
Thanks bud. I actually read that article two days ago on T-Mag :D but it's saved in my e-mail. Good stuff.

EDIT: I didn't realize there was more past the conjugate periodization article. Awesome!
 
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Week 3 -- MONDAY

Squat 5x5: warmup to 350 (PR)
-very tough. Got 'em all though. I had a friend video my last set w/ my phone but he didn't push 'save' so I didn't get to see it . He said i was bouncing a little but I'd like to see for myself just how bad it was, if it was bad. I intentionally use just a shade of stretch reflex but my knees feel great. I'll get my 1x5 attempt video'd Friday. Also, I had a pretty wicked pump by set 3, so maybe the test is kicking in. Or maybe I'm just not used to this much work.

Bench 1x5: rotator warmup, 135x15, 185x5, 225x5, 245x5, 275x3, 295x4
-Goddamn motherfuckin' cocksmoking bullshit! I'm fuggin' PISSED that I missed this. I suppose the fact that I haven't used much in the way of intensity on bench for a couple months didn't help. But shit, I HATE moving backwards!

Power clean: 135x5, 185x3x3, 205x3, 225x3x2 (PR)
-Made me feel a little better. I did an extra set just for good measure. I used straps just to see if they'd help and they really did - I probably have some serious gains to make on PC's if I take my grip out of the equation. My grip sucks but UPS says my CoC #1 will be here wednesday, so I'm gonna put some serious work in on that bastard.

DB curls: (per arm) 45'sx8, 50'sx7

Standing overhead tricep ext.: :rainbow:x12, x10
-I've skipped dips for now as my homie with the dip belt hasn't been around. As if I needed to feel geigher about these, there was a guy repping out 405 on bench right by me while I was doing my last set. I've seen this fucker DL 635 before.

Well it felt good to beat the shit out of myself again :). I took quite a while on squats (~40 minutes from first warmup to last rack) but I think that's fine. I had an audience for a while as four guys were using the rack next to me. I hate that I'm so damn judgemental but I was laughing inside as they were decently big and using 185 and not breaking parallel (and all wearing bigass PL style belts :p).

Hopefully the gear will be in full effect by Friday and I'll nail 285 for 5x5 on bench. Otherwise I may go for 280. As always, I can't wait to DL on Weds - probably gonna go for 365 unless I feel like Superman by then.
 
Nice workout man. Dont worry about the missed rep on bench press. You'll get it next week for sure. Post that video from your next session if you can.
 
"Wicked pump"?!?! Tricep extensions?!?! This journal has really gone to hell... :p

You summed up that "missed a rep" feeling pretty well in your bench comments, but a squat PR is good stuff. Congrats.
 
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Week 3 -- WEDNESDAY

Interesting day...

Front squat: 135x8, 185x5, 225x5x3
-I dunno about these being as easy as light backsquats - these kinda kick my ass, so I lowered the volume a shade. I had no difficulty racking 225 (sorry Jim :)), so that's good.

Standing OHP: 170x5x4, x4
-Really surprised at this. I thought the gear was in effect and this would be cake. I was wrong on both counts.

Deadlift 5x5: 375
-OK here's where it gets interesting. For my last set I had a friend who is a competive BBer check my form. He told me some stuff and I was floored - he dabbled in powerlifting b/c of people who said BBers were pussies and has pulled 700 w/ only a belt, and squatted 650(ish - I forget the exact #) with a narrow stance. 275 lb weight class.

Anywho, he said that I was using WAY too much low back to initiate the pull. Not that I was rounding, but just not using my hips. He said that's prob. why the bottom of a pull is so hard for me - at most I should be using my back muscles to keep my arch, not to pull the weight up with 'em. I tried a couple singles w/ 375 and him coaching, and I think this is a serious breakthrough. My hams wre shaking during the pull, which suggests to me that this is the CNS 'learning' to fire some motor units differently (<--- anyone care to comment on this estimation?). So my low back really isn't weak, it's just being mismanaged :p. I'm thinking that I'll try triples next week and really work on getting my form perfect. Since I'm juiced and only deloading when I feel the need, I don't really see a problem with deviating a bit, especially for the sake of actually deadlifting correctly :rolleyes:.


Pullups 5x5: BW
-complete brain fart after the DL revelation. Didn't even occur to me to add weight to 'em at the time.

Grip work: CoC #1 - 5 triples/hand, 2 one-minute static holds/hand
-It came and I'm surprised at how tough it is! I figured I'd be able to knock out sets of at least 7 or 8. Looks like #2 is gonna stay open for a while...

EDIT: I did 14 minutes of HIIT on Tues (warmup, 3 sprints up to 9 mph for ~1 minute each, cooldown) preceded by some active recovery squats w/ 135 and some OHP with the bar. After cardio I stretched. I also stretched after Weds. weights.
 
Looking good G5.0. I hope the switch turns on with the deadlift, between the program and the 'creatine and NO2' you'll probably blow past your old PR.

I would've figured with Starting Strength in hand that your form was already dialed in, but there's nothing like someone who knows to watch and point and poke and prod. Good stuff.

I know when I've failed on a dead attempt I can't keep my arch and when that happens I'll bail out. So I've tried to do some strengthening there like RDL's and weighted hypers now...we'll see.

Guinness5.0 said:
I had no difficulty racking 225 (sorry Jim ), so that's good.
Click to expand...

:chomp:

I may try for some singles just for fun to see what I can get up to.

Guinness5.0 said:
Standing OHP: 170x5x4, x4
-Really surprised at this. I thought the gear was in effect and this would be cake. I was wrong on both counts.
Click to expand...

It still blows mine away. I have no idea why mine is so weak (120). Anyone know what OHP should be in relation to bench?
 
It's been a while since I worked them on separate days but I OHP at around 60% of my bench, more with a push-press.

That sounds interesting about the deadlift. Definitely spend the time to dial it in if you felt an improvement in form.

I'm now up to 260 on front squat for 5 sets of 3 and I'm starting to feel a little concern for my cross-over grip. I think it'll bear one more 10lb bump before Christmas, though.
 
blut wump said:
It's been a while since I worked them on separate days but I OHP at around 60% of my bench, more with a push-press
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Oh. Damn, I guess my bench is weak too. :rainbow:

blut wump said:
I'm now up to 260 on front squat for 5 sets of 3 and I'm starting to feel a little concern for my cross-over grip. I think it'll bear one more 10lb bump before Christmas, though.
Click to expand...

Make it to 275 fronts, that'd be nice.
 
Week 3 -- FRIDAY

Possibly the most frustrating workout ever. I was livid.

Squat: 135x8x2, 185x5, 225x5 275x5, 315x5x2
-So I squat wrong too. My BBer buddy said I have "duck butt", meaning at the bottom I rotate my hips so the bottom goes forward and the top goes back. I used to do it worse and thought I fixed it. His comment was unprompted, so obviously it's readily apparent. So I went down and held my arch tight, which felt different but I have to admit I think it's right - more hams/glutes, less low back involvement. It cost me a couple inches of depth, but I was still below parallel. Maybe I'll gain some flexibilty aling the way. Seriously I can't believe i've been lifting this long and just learned how to squat/DL. Irritating :mad:

Bench "5x5": warmup to 280x5, x4, quit
-pissed. Just plain pissed.

Power clean : 135x5, quit
-Back hurt pretty bad. Pissed.

Grip work : 5 triples/hand with CoC#1
-Def. stronger since last workout with it

I attempted to do HIIT cardio but I locked up three treadmills before I conceded that I was too heavy to use the POS treadmills at this gym at 9 mph. So I did 20 mins. of brisk walking, then stretched for a good ten minutes and left. Pissed.

Bitch/moan session: going on 20 hours now
-So I'm left wondering WTF I should do. I tend to think I'm in overreaching based on my bench "performance". I thought the gear would be in effect by now. I know it's real - the prop is leftovers from my last cycle (at the end of which I weighed 262 pounds) and I made the tren myself for the second time. I mean, I'm hard to rattle but I'm beside myself with frustration at the moment. I'm thinking that doing squats/deads properly will mean taking a dip in weight short term, and then watching 'em soar. So that's not such a big deal, but now my program is FUBAR at the moment.

I may switch over to Westside and see how that goes. Or I'll take it easy w/ a two-session week, then hit it hard again.

Also, I took some measurements just for grins and my arms are a bit over 17" (up 1/4" in 10 days), and my right thigh is at 28" (up 1"). I have ZERO visible bloat. So why the fuck is my strength down? Hopefully this is an anomaly, or I started the run too fatigued (which is probably it, really). But seriously, it's been ten days since I started my shots and I'd have thought the shit would be in full swing by now. It is a much lower dose then last time, but why hypertrophy and no strength? Oh yeah, my weight's up too - to 245 - and I'm eating less. Intercellular water gain?

I'm fuggin' LOST.
 
The mood of your posts has changed this past week so I reckon you've had some emotional shift. Like you said, though, you've no doubt the gear is good so it has to be in effect.

How are you feeling generally? Any lethargy or are you feeling like superman? I was thinking about blood pressure but you reckon no bloat except that your weight is up. Are you running any ancillaries like arimidex, dostinex or proviron or any orals? Dunno, man, I hope you track it down.
 
keep in there bro.. you mind making a vid of your squat.. i feel i might be doing mine wrong as well..
 
I feel great other than the weight room foibles. No ancillaries yet - I don't take 'em unless I feel the need.

Oh yeah resting heart rate was 69 BPM yesterday - up 15 bpm. Maybe I just need to chill the hell out and be patient. I'll save freaking out until next week sucks :D

Phaded - I'll work on the vid. I've been meaning to post vids for months (and probably would be much further along if I had) but I never seem to do it - keep bugging me about it :)
 
What's with this resting heart rate thing? Is it, by any means, a good gauge to tracking overtraining?
 
Jim Ouini said:
A return of the back pain or something different?
Click to expand...
Same. It hurt on squats when I'd get out from under the bar after racking it - just for an instant after the weight came off. It hurt the whole time on cleans.

I think it's from DL'ing using all low back. I guess I should be excited that I'll be deadlifting properly. I'm probably gonna make some serious progress.

BTW this isn't the first time someone smart has corrected my DL form - check out this post from a past journal. She told me the same thing (using a different cue) and I eventually got away from it. Good lord, I can't remember something this important and I'm going back to school soon :worried:
 
Don't be down on yourself. Gear takes a while to build up in the system and hit you full force. I don't know what you are taking,or what dose, but it sounds like you might just need a day or two away from the gym. Try a day of just being a lazy ass and eat a pizza or two, that should do the trick! It sounds like everything else is going good. Keep at it!
 
What cues did he tell you for the deadlift? How does one know if they're using the lower back to much? I'm guessing that by not using your hips, he meant you weren't thrusting them forward into the bar enough.
 
Anthrax Invasion said:
What cues did he tell you for the deadlift? How does one know if they're using the lower back to much?
Click to expand...
His exact words were that I should feel my hip muscles 'ball up' to initiate (he's from Georgia so some of his phrases are somewhat amusing :)). Low back should just stabilize/arch, not actually initiate the pull. He said that pulling my shoulder blades together would help remind me to start w/ my hips - it's tough to pull hard w/ your low back if your shoulder blades are pinched together.

The Oly weightlifter from before said to stick out my chest and pull with my shoulders and hips simultaneously, which in effect caused my spine to stay in the same angle with the floor as my torso moved up - this way my hips HAD to initiate the pull. Then I'd pull back and finish the rep.

After both coaching sessions I remember thinking how much more natural it felt and how the strain on my lumbar region was not nearly as pronounced.

I'm guessing that by not using your hips, he meant you weren't thrusting them forward into the bar enough.
Click to expand...
Nope. He said he thought that I looked plenty strong to pull big from the top. I've been thinking that for months now. At least I've been right about something :rolleyes:
 
C3bodybuilding said:
Don't be down on yourself. Gear takes a while to build up in the system and hit you full force. I don't know what you are taking,or what dose, but it sounds like you might just need a day or two away from the gym. Try a day of just being a lazy ass and eat a pizza or two, that should do the trick! It sounds like everything else is going good. Keep at it!
Click to expand...
It's prop at 100mg EOD, tren at 75mg EOD, winny (oil based) at 25mg ED (orally - it gave me a NASTY welt when I put it in my delt).

And it's only been 7 days. I need to chill - I thought it had been ten :D
 
anotherbutters said:
Have you been to see a chiro for you back? He (or she if you're lucky) might be able to point something out that you hadn't noticed/considered.
Click to expand...
Not yet but I will. It may take care of itself. Read on...
 
Week 4 - MONDAY

Deload day. It went very well.

Squat 135x10x2, 225x5, 275x3, 315x3, 335x3, 355x3, 275x8
-OK so it's not MC2's textbook deload of cutting volume and leaving the intensity up, but this is a unique situation in that I needed to iron out my form. I'm very pleased as there was a marked improvement in the feel of the movement. I made less of a point of holding the arch as tight and pronounced as possible (which I did Friday) and was just careful not to round. Now I know what hamstring/glute stretch reflex really feels like :)

-It's strange - I figured since I was rounding my back in the hole, I must have a very strong low back in order to get moving. It seems the eopposite is true - that maybe rounding is a cop-out and my hips/legs take up the slack of my 'lazy' lumbar region. My back was tired quickly by this (not in pain, it was just the most fatigued part of my post. chain). The fact that I'm in the neighborhood of my previous work weights is a plus. Hopefully the tren will get my back up to speed w/out any vertebrae zinging across the gym and lodging into unsuspecting cardio bunnies :D

Bench windmills, 135x15, 185x5, 225x5, 265x3, 280x1, 300x3
-Cake. Totally cake. I had a spotter for the last set and he seemed a little confused that I stopped at 3 :D

Power clean135x5, 185x3, 205x3, 225x3, 245x1x2 (PR's)
-first single w/ 245 was solid, second may have been a little out from my torso - not sure.

Close grip bench 135x?, 185x5, 225x8, 255x8, 275xx7
-How weird is this? I'm not sure that I can bench 275 7 times w/ a 'normal' width grip, but I had another rep when I stopped the set w/ 275. I had planned to use 225 throughout but it was a joke. Then 255 was a joke. So I said 'what the hell'. BTW my previous best CGBP was 300x5 (about a month before I even heard of 5x5, so it could have gotten better had I emphasized it), so I'm stronger on these than reg. bench. How funny would it be to enter a raw PL meet and do CGBP :frlol:

DB curls 50's, 2 sets of 8 per arm

CoC #1 5 triples w/ each hand
-Hmmm... this isn't getting any easier

Hanging leg raises BWx15x3

Stretched too. All in all this was just what I needed after a miserable Friday workout. It'd been so long since I had a bad one that I was just miserable about it. I overestimated how quickly the gear would hit - I got to thinking and last cycle I was not only running double the dose of both compounds, but I frontloaded the prop as well w/ 200mg/day for 4 days. That's why I was feelin' like superman by week 2 IMO.

Also, my deadlift buddy is pulling on Thurs so I'm gonna get in w/ him. Perfect timing.
 
Good times. Glad to hear the squat form change and workout as a whole went well.

I suppose I'll preempt Phaded and remind you that we're eagerly awaiting a video of your new and improved squat. :)
 
Good to hear that you're back on track.

Guinness5.0 said:
How funny would it be to enter a raw PL meet and do CGBP
Click to expand...

I had a PL friend like that, his preferred grip was CG. I saw him do 500+ like that pretty easy. One day he came in practicing his 'new technique' which was basically just a normal grip. Don't know the results though.
 
Week 4 - TUESDAY

This was supposed to be a cardio/stretch day, but I locked up three treadmills again trying to do HIIT and decided that pressing on was futile (there isn't enough money in the world to get me on a treadmill for 45 minutes of moderate walking :p).

So here's what happened instead :)

Farmer's walk 100 lb DB's, 4 walks of 50 yards each (give or take)
-Pretty nifty grip workout. Got me huffin' and puffin' a bit by the third one.

I had trouble coming up w/ another GPP-type of exercise, so I just did some...

Clean and press 135x3x5, 185x3x2
-Did 'em rapid fire w/ like 30 seconds rest. Really got the blood flowing and the sweat pouring. On my final set w/ 185 I transitioned into front squats for the hell of it. They felt good so I did some more...

Front squat 185x5, 205x5, 225x3, 255x3 (PR), 275x3 (PR), 295x1x2(PR), 315x1 (PR), 275x2, 315x1 (better form - full pause in the hole)
-Pretty wild. I had a guy that knew his shit watch me on the first attempt w/ 315. He said it was good but a tad bouncy. So I lightened up, paused on the next ones, and realized that I could hit 315 w/ a pause. I almost did a double but the session was getting out of hand as it was. This was to be a cardio day when I walked in the gym :p

Push press 185x3, 205x3x2 (PR), 225x2x2(PR), backoff w/ 135x5 (strict OHP)
-Hells fuggin' yeah. Felt like a goddman animal on these. They were all fast, explosive, and locked out at the top.

I played around w/ overhead squats but I figured that I'd done enough already. Besides, I was having trouble w/ 95 pounds. I should have my Oly shoes by Christmas (ordered 'em from glennpendlay Friday I think) so these will be good to learn w/ proper footwear. BTW during this entire workout I was wearing New Balance running shoes. Can't wait to do fronts again in Oly shoes :D. Next workout will be Thursday w/ my 'form coach' - DL's on the menu. I'll be careful but I don't see why a big fat PR would be out of the question.
 
FYI - be very careful pushing max singles and max lifts early in a cycle. This is a recipe for getting hurt. Stick to a plan, add volume, add frequency if need be, but random max attempts have hurt a number of people.
 
I'm stunned. I remember posting a few months back about juice offering the possibility of cramming a year's progress or more into a month or two. To see it happening, not quite in front of my eyes, is jaw-dropping.

Like madcow mentions, I've seen a few stories around of muscle tears coming from exploring your strength before everything catches up, technique with new strength included. It even happened to me natty on my Korte as I'd had a splurge in strength over the volume phase.

Fantastic workout. I can see you're going to be enjoying these next few weeks.
 
Madcow2 said:
FYI - be very careful pushing max singles and max lifts early in a cycle. This is a recipe for getting hurt. Stick to a plan, add volume, add frequency if need be, but random max attempts have hurt a number of people.
Click to expand...
Yeah I got a little caught up in the moment. I think I coulda done even more, but I def. think it would've been better to spread it out a bit.

And thanks for all the kind words guys. I'll try to be smart and keep it steady from now on :) I imagine I'll add a front squat/push-press/power clean/pullup day, sub out the M/F cleans for rows, and load til a deload is needed. Just an observation - I think I was into overreaching on Friday but it seemed to dissipate almost overnight. Perhaps now that the gear's hit I'll be able to load real hard and come back faster? We'll see....
 
If you're feeling good, and you want to do more work, you can always make Tuesday a regular training day. You can do snatches, snatch pulls, and rowing. Depending on how long you push and how much work your body can tolerate, you can add OHP on Tues and incline Wed and keep M and F as bench days......again, it takes a lot of conditioning, but it can be built to.

I agree though, up the workload by manipulating frequency/volume rather than hitting a max.....I want to see you at this for a long time.
 
OK, whattaya think of loading/volume phase like this:

Monday
Squat 5x5
Bench 1x5
Row 1x5
few sets of arm stuff in the 8 rep range

Tues
Power clean 8 triples, same weight, short rest
Front squat 6x4 (6 sets of four reps, same weight)
Push press 6x4 (but working to a top set rather than constant weight)
pullups 5x5
grip/abs

Thurs
Deads 5x5
Bench 5x5
Rows 5x5
arms like mon

Sat
Squat 1x5
OHP 5x5
Pullup 5x5
Grip/abs

Then deloading w/ the 5x5/1x5's going to 3x3/1x3's, the 4's going to doubles, and the triples (cleans only) going to doubles and singles, and building to an intensity phase in which I would come off the gear while not too deep into fatigue. I guess a lot will depend on how many weeks I can load, and how it all syncs up with my 'stash' :D.
 
That's a good plan, with the cleaning, you might want to make the deads RDls, GMs, or clean/snatch pulls, but thats just a suggestion....I tend to find that when pushing deads and cleans, the cleans suffer.

I don't want to clutter up the journal, but eventually you can build to a loading phase that looks something like this.....

Monday
Power Clean
Clean Pull
Back Squat
Flat Bench
Incline D-Bells

Tuesday
Overhead squat or snatch balance as a warm-up
Power Snatch
Snatch Pull
Overhead Press
Chins
Calves

Wednesday
Front Squat
Good Morning
Incline Press
Dips
Some bis for good measure, but not so much to fuck up your pulls

Friday
Power Clean
Power Jerk
(or you can just c and j and knock them both out at once)
Back Squat
Jump Shrug
Flat Bench
Close-Grip Bench (as back off sets to the bench)

*some type of core exercises every workout, like decline situps/back hypers supersets or something like that for a warm-up to every workout works well.

Just giving you some ideas, a lot of pulling, but the workload is spread out, and not as taxing on the body in one shot as a Dl session, you can do more work more often and load up nicely.....maybe then work the deads hard on a reduced volume/frequency plan.
 
BiggT said:
I don't want to clutter up the journal...
Click to expand...
No worries about that, bud. I really like that program you outlined (I miss inc. DB press) - I'll keep that in mind for my future training cycles. I need to get some practice/teaching on the olympics though, before I do like my squat and do 'em wrong for years :)

So you think the deads are gonna be a bit much, huh? Do you think I'd be better off ramping 'em, to 3x5 or 1x5? Something else? I really wanna train the dead specifically for this cycle, and I'm not gonna be at this gym much longer. I have a chance to work with someone who will be able to help me get my form perfect and I want to take advantage.
 
The thing I find with deadlift training, is that once somebody is in the intermediate stage, it becomes a very individual thing, and the workload can add up quick and effect your whole program. With most people, once they build a respectable deadlift, training it weekly for 5 sets of 5 really adds tonnage quick to the workload and can push you too far towards over reaching too quick.

I don't know what you deadlift is, but for a guy your size, I would consider 500 to be about an intermediate level. If your DL is 500 or better, you may be better off with the 1x5 like you said, or even ramping up like this....5-5-5-3-3-3....with all sets increasing in weight to a 1x3. 25 total reps on a DL with over 450 or so for a few weeks in a row can really push you into overeaching before you plan.
 
Funny you should mention 500 as it's my goal (most recent 3rm is 435). I think I'll get it quickly though as my form has been wrong lately - I try to pull with my low back right from the get-go rather than using a strong hip drive. I'm working with someone who can help me greatly IMO.

I think I'll go with the 5-5-5-3-3-3 scheme and take it slow. I'm a tad worried that b/t the gear and the improved form, I'm gonna wear out my hips if I'm not really careful.
 
Just chiming in to say - you're a fucking animal. Keep it up, man. This shit is fun to read.

Get us a video or two so we can watch you tear shit up.
 
Week 4 -- THURSDAY

Deadlift 235x8, 325x3x3, 375x3x2, 415x1
-Numbers are screwy b/c of the bigass collars used. I worked with my buddy and I'm getting the feel for my new form. It was def. a learning experience as it's a little unnatural for me to push up so hard with my hips before pulling w/ my back. I actually bombed w/ 375 on each set (pulled it an inch and then quit), then kinda got my head together and pulled the triples no problem. 415 was tough but good - I had to pull it fast or I wouldn't have gotten it. I'm pretty sore from using muscles in a different way. Hopefully that means there's lots of potential left....

Bench 5x5 275
-Pretty easy. The bar was 'oily' and I thnk the gear is making my hands extra sweaty. I gotta get some chalk or the tougher weights are gonna slip.

Rows 5x5 225, then 135x20
-Felt great to do these again. I love this exercise. Nice and easy today. I deweighted every rep on the floor and focused on acceleration througout the pull. On the 20-repper I gripped the bar wider and didn't deweight - just let it down til my elbows were straight. I got the idea for burn sets based on some reading on the metabolic effects they induce (increased muscle glycogen uptake, which mainly interests me b/c I want my PWO carbs to go to my muscles as efficiently as possible since I'm hypocaloric). I'm gonna read more on this to see if it's worth it.

CGBP 225x7, 265x6, 225x8
-A little bit random, but I wasn't sure how these would go having already used some volume on regular bench press. I don't think my shoulders like heavy bench and heavy close grips in the same day, so I'll be sure to err on the side of light for these in the future.

DB curls 50'sx8, x6
-Pretty tired by now.

Stretched for ten minutes. Pretty happy overall. Felt real strong on bench. I may do some technique work on saturday for deads - I was thinking maybe some triples with 225ish to 'hone the groove' and get this form to be second nature rather than something I need to think about conciously.

I'm kinda concerned about something though. I'm really not losing any weight (still 242 most mornings) or inches off my gut. I've cut cals even more than before, though not by much (instead of six whole eggs in my omelette I use 4 whole and 4 whites). I'd have thoght that between the tougher workouts and the gear, I'd be seeing some decent - or at least discernable - progress by now.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
I'm kinda concerned about something though. I'm really not losing any weight (still 242 most mornings) or inches off my gut. I've cut cals even more than before, though not by much (instead of six whole eggs in my omelette I use 4 whole and 4 whites). I'd have thoght that between the tougher workouts and the gear, I'd be seeing some decent - or at least discernable - progress by now.
Click to expand...

I'd actually been planning to ask about your caloric balance (didn't know if you were still wanting to use the cycle to "see your abs" as you'd mentioned or just go hypercaloric to help even more with PRs). Your problem is likely that you've been dieting for long enough that your body has adapted to the lower caloric level by slowing metabolism, ceasing lipolysis, etc. Basically, you need to incorporate periods of significantly higher calories (especially carbs) to in essence "reset" hormone levels and nutrient/fat utilization. You might've come across references to this mentioning leptin and refeeds (the former has had a few reports on it in mainstream publications recently). The link below is a very concise summary of leptin's role in the body; there are more detailed articles elsewhere on the site if you want to get quite a bit deeper into the science:

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=35&pageID=425
 
That looks like a more normal workout. It seems that the idea of 'program' is falling a little by the wayside at the moment. I guess with the juice, squat and deadlift each changing things it's enough to be following a good workout template while things settle into place.

Enjoy your light meal. ;)
 
These places do have their economics in place. For every gargantuan, ravenous lifter there are a couple of dozen secretaries who feel bloated at half an egg-white and a leaf of lettuce not to mention the vegetarians who were outvoted.
 
I wish we had one of those places, even though I never get my money's worth.

We sometimes eat at an all you can eat salad place called Zoopa's. They have soup, pizza, pasta, all kinds of breads, ice cream. I can only eat 1 plate of salad, 2 bowls of soup and maybe a small slice of pizza.

I see some hefties there going back 3,4 or 5 times. Ladelfuls of salad dressing and sometimes using soup bowls for their ice cream :Chef: Sad thing is I think they consider it their 'healthy meal' for the week.
 
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