Power Clean Link and nice thread

[Madcow2]

Since there is some interest of late in learning the clean this is a pretty fun thread. I linked post 14 because I really dig the 3rd picture - that's a well timed shot right there.

http://www.fortifiediron.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=28201&view=findpost&p=544720

FI's Olympic Lifting forum is pretty solid so for those of you that are learning and interested it might be worth spending some time there. Several coaches and knowledgable lifters to review questions or videos of your lifts. Glenn is also a mod there now which I guess is recent.

Anyway, happy new year to all.

 

[fortunatesun]

As one of those with a recent interest in cleans, thanks for this post. I've already spotted two things I've been doing wrong, and I've had reinforced a few things I felt I was doing right.

 

[anotherbutters]

Check out the movie in the first post too. As well as showing what honky bumper plates look like, it demonstrates what a clean looks like when you lift a light weight without a second pull.

As another learner, I think I'm doing these pretty well now, but I still don't get the knee rebend bit. I can't even see it in videos of people doing them correctly (e.g. Dimas).

 

[super_rice]

for me, the discovery of the knee rebend bit was the most important in learning the oly lifts. i had trouble cleaning 70kg because i was dry humping the bar while jumping (basically what a lot of cleans look like ). once the knee rebend comes into play (just bending your knees so that the bar is over top of your knees at mid thigh, and torso closer to vertical), you'll be able to properly transfer force from your triple extension. learning the knee rebend put 30kg on my clean

 

[BiggT]

Check out the movie in the first post too. As well as showing what honky bumper plates look like, it demonstrates what a clean looks like when you lift a light weight without a second pull.

As another learner, I think I'm doing these pretty well now, but I still don't get the knee rebend bit. I can't even see it in videos of people doing them correctly (e.g. Dimas).

It can be subtle.....some guys do it and don't even know they are doing it. Some guys need to be taught, but when they do, everything just clicks.

In pic number two of the link, the lifter has already rebent the knees, and is ready for the actual explosive portion of the lift.

Super Rice is right, I have seen guys struggle to clean 200lbs, but then they figure out the rebend and are cleaning 250 in one workout.

 

[anotherbutters]

I was going to ask how subtle it was. I've just looked at all the cleaning clips I have (any excuse to watch Dimas again) and I can see it now. I did power cleans earlier today, but I can't remember whether I was doing it without realising. Thanks for the comments. I'll watch for this when I do them on Monday.

 

[BiggT]

I was going to ask how subtle it was. I've just looked at all the cleaning clips I have (any excuse to watch Dimas again) and I can see it now. I did power cleans earlier today, but I can't remember whether I was doing it without realising. Thanks for the comments. I'll watch for this when I do them on Monday.

If you can see the subtle rebend in the video, it's good, because it means you understand the phases of the lift and can pick the pulls apart. The biggest problem people learning cleans have is they don't understand the lift is a combination of various phases, and they just rip from the floor, and then they don't understand you drop to catch in a front squat (or less than half a front squat for the power versions), and they swing the back to catch.

If your first pull from the floor is smooth, and you understand that the explosion doesn't happen until you're vertical and you jump shrug the weight, I'd bet money that you're rebending and don't even know it.....it seems to me the problems with not rebending occur when people think you just grip and rip the bar from the floor to your shoulders any way it will go up.

 

[Madcow2]

If you think about bar path and the body, during the first pull the torso does not pull back but remains relatively constant. As one clears the knees the bar is brought closer to the body almost like a scoop - this is done by straightening the torso and shifting the knees back under the bar (or rebend)

This is an interesting site I googled - http://tomgorman.moonfruit.com/pullingpage2
There are a lot of cool links but if you go to the menu item "it's all in the pull" you can read each page and see diagrams of the bar path. Probably helpful to give a read.

 

[anotherbutters]

I'm a Starting Strength fan, so I picked up most of what I know from there. He teaches it from the top down in there. First you learn the rack position, then pulling from the hang, then from the floor, so I understand the two pulls. And I keep the bar nice and close, just skimming the mid-thighs on the way up.

I think I'm pretty much there, I just need to become more consistent - I started pulling with my arms last week and had to slow right down to fix it. I thought the rebend was more pronounced than it is, but now that I can see it is quite subtle and I think I'm probably doing it already.

 

[BiggT]

Also, in terms of videos, on the linked site, they are viewing a Pyros Dimas video, and from a purely technical standpoint, he probably isn't the best lifter to watch. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of his, but compared to the other world-class lifters in his weight class his form isn't really the greatest. His is a clutch performer who thrives on the biggest and brightest stages, he is very strong, but not any stronger than a lot of world class lifters in his weight class, and while his form is adequate for just about anyone, in terms of world-class lifters, it really isn't very good, it's not horrible like Reza Zadeh or Chemerkin, but it isn't textbook perfect. He is one of the greatest weightlifters of all time, but his form really isn't the reason, he just performs the best when the world is watching, and in the Olympics he beats guys who are just as strong or stronger with better technique because he hits what he has to hit at the right time, while others crack under the pressure.

If you really want to dissect a lift and pick out the various phases and watch textbook form, look at videos of the Chinese lifters. Actually the lighter women are best to watch in terms of technique because they are weak as piss and they absolutely require perfect technique.

This brings up the point of inadequate form, adequate form, and perfect form.

The guy who posted the question on FI has inadequate form, ripping the bar up and throwing your back out to muscle up the weight is not a clean, and that type of thing needs to be reworked from the ground up.

With adequate form you clean the weight, but your technique will still prevent you from lifting as much as you probably could, you can be proficient, like Dimas, and still leave a lot to be desired. Also, a phenominally strong freak like Reza Zadeh or Chemerkin (I swear he push presses his jerks, lol) can have form that is absolute shit by world-class standards (in Reza Zadeh's case, just absolute shit by most standards), but being such a strong squatter, puller, and presser allows them to hit big lifts.

For perfect technique, watch a lot of the lighter, weaker lifters.

 

[anotherbutters]

I've heard someone else say that about Dimas too. Maybe madcow or Glenn (or was it you?!). Funny you should say that though, because I couldn't see the rebend on Dimas. I have a couple of clips that really do show it, but I don't have a link to them and putfile's down for maintenance.

One is JanzRedPowerClean95.mpg, which I got from www.uwlax.edu, but they no longer host it. The other is Boevski-185CJ.mpg, which I think I got from another thread on here the other day. I'll upload them somewhere when I can.

In terms of lighter lifters, I don't know if you've looked at some of the clips on Glenn's Wichita Falls website. I think this kid's brilliant: Josh Robinett 25kg snatch.

EDIT: putfile is back. These are direct links to the clips, just right click and "save as": JanzRedPowerClean95 (I love the music in this one!) and Boevski-185CJ.

 

[BiggT]

A number of people have pointed that out to me about Dimas, a guy in my area who still competes in local contests at age 78 and is an o-lifting junkie always told me Dimas beat guys in the Olympics who he had no business beating, but it is Dimas and it is the Olympics and they tend to bring out the best in him. By the way, this same guy is a technical master, and has not too nice things to say about me and my form, lol, He said to me once "unfortunate for you they eliminated the press, you might have been good at something" lol... I am the type of guy who understands the lifts and can teach them, and I do have adequate to pretty proficient form and I do rebend the knees, but still, if it weren't for decent pulls, presses, and squats, would have nowhere near the numbers I do, and TRUST me, I am no world-class lifter.

But, Yeah, for technique, you're better off watching young kids with proper coaching like the young man from Glen's site, or the entire Chinese team, and lifters who aren't particularly strong pullers or pressers (usually the very light weight classes).

I just wanted to point that out, because a lot of people will look at Dimas's resume or at Reza Zadeh's or Chemerkin's numbers and assume they must have perfect form, but it isn't the case. A lot of international lifters who are either very weak or very poor clutch performers have much, much better form.

 

[Madcow2]

I always really enjoyed watching Nicu Vlad lift particularly the snatch. Not a superheavy but a great larger lifter. My friend and his coach had all kinds of old weightlifting competition tapes that we used to watch for hours. I did eventually get to see Nicu compete at the end of his long career in the Atlanta games in 1996 where he took 3rd to Taimazov (spelling?) who was just a monster puller and in peak form that day - we sat behind the Ukraine team and some young woman affiliated with the team or coaches who was just stunningly beautiful - yeah, pretty enough to still remember and mention it. I think it was Botev maybe who was 2nd? Sad that I can't remember. Nicu was neck and neck with Botev but didn't get out of the hole on his last clean (probably age and leg power - but it was pulled and racked perfectly before he had to give up on it).

For those that don't know Nicu was the lifter who visited the US, I think back in 1990 with Dragomir (both of Romania and Dragomir has since been the US coach). Nicu did the original pulling demonstration of his assistance pull variant that became the "romanian deadlift" or for bodybuilding provided a new name that made a workout program with any random stiff dead or variant seem a lot more sexy and international. If I remember Nicu is said to have also posted a 42" vertical with wood heeled weightlifting shoes, no warm up, and it may or may not have been post workout as I don't remember.

 

[vin01]

Great thread, guys.

Thanks for all the links. I love watching videos, with those guys doing some amazing stuff.

While I have nothing to contribute because my form very well sucks, I really love attempting to learn the O-lifts.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Yeah great info, I'm going to bookmark this one.

BTW, it seems if I can front squat 225 easily, and clean pull more than that it's just a matter of getting under the bar properly. But I think I have a mental block 'accepting the weight', I think is the term, and it hurts my bicep, maybe I'm not 'giving' with the weight enough.

Admittedly I've only attempted like 10 powercleans total in my life

Also, I assume this is good form:

http://www.southsideweightlifting.co.uk/Clean Tech.htm

Is there really an 'active arm pull' during the 'drop'? I thought I read your arms are ropes, or rubber bands.

 

[BiggT]

Jim, try to imagine the bar suspended momentarily in mid air and you pull yourself underneath it. If you're having trouble with the rack, assuming you can front squat properly and have no issues with the actual rack, I'd recommend focus on front squats with a pause in the hole to get comfortable in that bottom position. If you're a strong squatter that should be a relief for you, kind of like the hard part is over now just smoke a front squat and I'm done. With the power version, you're just doing about a quarter to half front squat, and while the feet will spread apart, you need to make sure you are still jumping vertical and squatting to catch and NOT jumping out like a jumping jack.

That link is good form, but it skips over a lot of steps that could be pictured. transitional stuff that would really help somebody who is just learning and doesn't take for granted the things that aren't shown, another problem with still pics is that you cannot see the movement and a lot of guys are left guessing as to how to actually get into the various positions in the shots. The only concern I'd have about your form is you said it hurts your bicep.....make sure there is no jerking your body back or reverse curling type thing..pull smooth until the jump shrug portion, just relax the elbows as they point out and let the momentum from the jump let the bar rise, once it is about waist high, .you drop into position AS you rotate the elbows around by pulling yourself under the "suspended" bar.

 

[Jim Ouini]

I think I am doing some reverse curling. In fact when I watched the vid of the OP in the FI thread, I thought I recognized it

Thanks for the great advice Biggt, I can't wait to try it.

EDIT: additional info is good stuff

 

[Madcow2]

Another drill to try is to use lighter weight in a high hang position practice pulling it and getting under the bar. Just bring it to full extension (not necessarily pulling with everything you have but standard technique) and drop under. This is the problem with teaching stronger people, a weight they would need to squat clean is something they don't necessarily want to try for their first time. And really, if you have the choice you want to learn the full lifts - (squat clean and snatch) first as people develop screwed up technique from learning the power versions and it takes a lot of effort to rebuild and correct later.

 

[redguru]

If you don't mind seeing a woman do them for form, here's a good example with commentary at crossfit.com

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/cfj-nov-05/power-clean.wmv

 

[super_rice]

If you guys check out the weightlifting exchange you can see a fairly young Nicu Vlad snatching in half speed from the side and angle.. It's like a 20 minute video of a full workout, he does some clean and jerks too.

And if maybe CCJ will repost the ironmind videos he encoded originally, there is a very nice clip of Stefan Botev working in with Nicu. I love how Nicu does the triples.

Don't see that very often...

 

[anotherbutters]

If you don't mind seeing a woman do them for form, here's a good example with commentary at crossfit.com

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/cfj-nov-05/power-clean.wmv

I never thought watching a woman clean could be so interesting. There are lots of other clips on that site, listed here: http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html

I take it the powerclean version of the lift, where you don't go down into a front squat, is the one that most people do when they say they're doing cleans? That's the one listed in the 5x5 descriptions and recommended in Starting Strength.

 

[redguru]

I never thought watching a woman clean could be so interesting. There are lots of other clips on that site, listed here: http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html

I take it the powerclean version of the lift, where you don't go down into a front squat, is the one that most people do when they say they're doing cleans? That's the one listed in the 5x5 descriptions and recommended in Starting Strength.

The crossfitters are maniacs, they've actually had people drop with renal failure from thier exercise routines. However, I believe plyometrics have thier place, and the crossfit philosophies intrigue me.

The power clean is mostly used by football players for its explosive value. Which is why Bill Starr is so keen on it. I have just started to implement it in my routine. I think here a lot of people do the normal clean, which is more like the front squat.

 

[musketeer]

The crossfitters are maniacs, they've actually had people drop with renal failure from thier exercise routines. However, I believe plyometrics have thier place, and the crossfit philosophies intrigue me.

The power clean is mostly used by football players for its explosive value. Which is why Bill Starr is so keen on it. I have just started to implement it in my routine. I think here a lot of people do the normal clean, which is more like the front squat.

I'd say that most amateur lifters who are not oly lifting for sport do the power clean because it is a lot easier to learn as getting under the bar after the second pull (in my opinion the most difficult part of the lift) is not an issue.

 

[Madcow2]

Ironically one of the best ways to teach proper technique is to teach the full lifts (squat clean/snatch) before the power versions. This is because the power variants enable people to develop some serious technical flaws and still make the lift. They then groove and ingrain this technique and it takes a complete rebuild to fix it later on (hence why so many people say getting under the bar is the most difficult part of the lift). I've been down this road myself which is one of the reasons I always suggest learning through a coach for even a few session as they will keep you from developing some tough to break habits later on.

 

[fortunatesun]

Rereading the thread this morning made me think of something I saw on one of the links I got through the Strongman Information Center.

A Soviet Model For Teaching Technique

http://www.wlinfo.com/articles.htm

It breaks down the order in which each segment of the lift should be learned. It also recommends learning the snatch before the clean, though it's not absolutely necessary to do so. In any case, the order of progression is the same.

For someone on the ground floor,though, I figured such advice is good. So, after doing bar weight sets of the various partial lifts, I did a few working sets of power snatch starting from shoulder pos. I thought I might be slightly bored at such a methodical approach, but I've got a sense of where this is headed and I think this is something I'll actually follow through on. Already looking forward to the next phase, hang snatch.

 

[Madcow2]

That whole site, http://www.wlinfo.com, is for Dreschler's Weightlifting Encyclopedia which is about the best and most comprehensive book for OL. It's around $40ish new and I saw used copies at Amazon for $21. I guess there's a video companion out there now too. If someone has legitimate interest, it's a hell of an impressive book and very much worth it - everything from history to technique to nutrition to programming to packing a gym bag to training beginners to case studies on top lifters to mental strategy. Just a huge 500+ page large format book and if there's one OL book to buy - that's absolutely it.

 

[anotherbutters]

This thread just keeps getting better. I still haven't found the groove yet and one of my concerns is that I end up finding the wrong one and ingraining it. I'm going to make a concerted effort to find a coach. If I'm going to do it, I might as well do it now.

I read a few reviews of Dreschler's WLE and ordered it on the spot

 

[BiggT]

This thread just keeps getting better. I still haven't found the groove yet and one of my concerns is that I end up finding the wrong one and ingraining it. I'm going to make a concerted effort to find a coach. If I'm going to do it, I might as well do it now.

I read a few reviews of Dreschler's WLE and ordered it on the spot

Good coaching is obviously nothing but a plus.....But, I will say, that you can be a pretty proficient lifter and get lots of benefit out of the lifts without it, the lifts are technically demanding, but it isn't brain surgery, even if a coach just double checks your form here and there.....Don't get me wrong, i am not advising against coaching, lol, that is just foolish, if you have an opportunity to train with a great coach, DO IT by all means, but a lot of people are under the misconception that the only way to be good at the olympic lifts is to spend years and years being formally coached, and that isn't true either, the lifts are tough, but not as tough as some people think or make them out to be.

 

[Madcow2]

Good coaching is obviously nothing but a plus.....But, I will say, that you can be a pretty proficient lifter and get lots of benefit out of the lifts without it, the lifts are technically demanding, but it isn't brain surgery, even if a coach just double checks your form here and there.....Don't get me wrong, i am not advising against coaching, lol, that is just foolish, if you have an opportunity to train with a great coach, DO IT by all means, but a lot of people are under the misconception that the only way to be good at the olympic lifts is to spend years and years being formally coached, and that isn't true either, the lifts are tough, but not as tough as some people think or make them out to be.

Definitly agree - just to clarify, I think the best way to get solid technique is to start with a few coached sessions even if you never go more than 3 times total in your whole life. That way you aren't ingraining super bad habits - which really are hard to break - and start off with something decent. Some of the hardest work in teaching or learning is breaking bad habits that they picked up initially when people learned on their own or from some gym instructor. You can do a lot with a solid foundation and will progress much faster and likely safer. Obviously anything beyond that is gravy, and who knows maybe you wind up liking the lifts or the sport and really want to get proficient to take it to another level. But if someone is interested in learning the absolute best thing they can do is get to a coach straight away and get someone to show them - will save a lot of time and in most cases quite a bit of hassle and correction.

 

[Madcow2]

Definitly agree - just to clarify, I think the best way to get solid technique is to start with a few coached sessions even if you never go more than 3 times total in your whole life. That way you aren't ingraining super bad habits - which really are hard to break - and start off with something decent. Some of the hardest work in teaching or learning is breaking bad habits that they picked up initially when people learned on their own or from some gym instructor. You can do a lot with a solid foundation and will progress much faster and likely safer. Obviously anything beyond that is gravy, and who knows maybe you wind up liking the lifts or the sport and really want to get proficient to take it to another level. But if someone is interested in learning the absolute best thing they can do is get to a coach straight away and get someone to show them - will save a lot of time and in most cases quite a bit of hassle and correction.

 

[BiggT]

Definitly agree - just to clarify, I think the best way to get solid technique is to start with a few coached sessions even if you never go more than 3 times total in your whole life. That way you aren't ingraining super bad habits - which really are hard to break - and start off with something decent. Some of the hardest work in teaching or learning is breaking bad habits that they picked up initially when people learned on their own or from some gym instructor. You can do a lot with a solid foundation and will progress much faster and likely safer. Obviously anything beyond that is gravy, and who knows maybe you wind up liking the lifts or the sport and really want to get proficient to take it to another level. But if someone is interested in learning the absolute best thing they can do is get to a coach straight away and get someone to show them - will save a lot of time and in most cases quite a bit of hassle and correction.

I Absolutely agree....I find it to be one of the easiest things toto show a 12 year old who has never lifted weights how to do the lifts, and it is much more difficult and sometimes downright frustrating showing a college football player who has been reverse curl-jumping jack catching their cleans for 3 years. I think it is important to learn right from the beginning, after that, I want to stress that you don't need to live in an olympic training center for years and have full-time coaching to be very good at both lifts and reap all of the benefits of them. So many people bag o-lifting because they feel the only safe and effective way to do them is under full-time supervision, and that just isn't the case.

 

[anotherbutters]

Yeah, I was only looking for a handful of coaching sessions to get me started, then maybe another one a few months down the line to correct any mistakes that have crept in. I did PC's this morning and made a complete arse of it - ended up pulling my shoulder a little bit. I was thinking too much about it.

 

[Protobuilder]

Isn't it weird how that happens? I can clean like nothing if I'm not thinking about it, but if I stand there, think about it, etc., then I can't get the 2d pull. LoL