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POST CYCLE THERAPY! - Lets see your recipies!

Mavy

Mavy

Super Human
Platinum
Thought that I would post this for all of the increasing posts on PCT that seem to come up all the time. Maybe this can be a good reference for newbies and a good starting place for them to get ideas. I will post up the best recipie that I can think of, and am planning on using for my next cycle. Lets see what everyone else plans to do or use for theirs. Please critique mine, and post up yours as well so we can maybe try to finalize a general plan. I personally think that PCT is almost more important than your cycle. There are a lot of other downsides to being shut down besides loosing the hard-earned muscle mass you gained while on.

I am trying to hit every angle in my PCT this time around. Some people like to go the herbal route, some like the "drugs". I am suggesting to go with BOTH and try to hit every angle, and at full force in the attempt to hopefully not loose ANY weight, and to restored the HPTA as fast and as best as possible. I am basing many of my PCT ideas off of William Llewellyn's suggestions.

I am planning to use HCG as the "key" postcycle choice to shock your balls with a very high level of LH far above what our body could do on its own to produce a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, to allow normal levels of test to be pumped out much sooner than without the PCT help.

Anti-estrogens are going to be used as a supportive role (I am choosing Nolva over Clomid) to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as you test levels start to go climb back up, and to fight any side effects from the HCG. I plan to continue with the anti-estrogens for another 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped to support high LH levels.

Herbs will be used also for a safe, removal of excess estrogens, to detoxify the liver, and help with libido.

Non-hormonal muscle builders will be used to help solidify gains and keep muscles as anti-catabolic as possible at a time when they are the most vulnerable to be eaten up. For this I am going to choose creatine, gplenish, and colustrum. I think that the first 2 speak for themselves. I am throwing colustrum into the mix just because I have been dying to try it, hehehe, and thought that PCT would be a good place for it. It is really an immune enhancer, with of immunoglobulins, nutrients, vitamins and minerals, nucleotides, immunoenhancing molecules and growth-stimulating factors, and supposedly it may have the ability to regenerate normal growth of muscle, bone, cartilage, skin, collagen and nerve tissue, support normal cell growth and tissue repair, and synthesize DNA and RNA. Anyways, I will be throwing this into the mix as well. It may help because all of the strenuous exercise is known to depress the immune response.

Plan to use proviron to harden up between the last long acting shots and PCT and to help with the wood, as well as a mild dose of steroid still (var or prop) to keep gains coming.

Here is what my progam will look like. In this example it will be after a typical 10wk cycle with longer acting substances like EQ and Sust, so I will start it after the last shot.


Wk10 (last week of the cycle)
Sust: 500mgs
EQ: 600mgs

Wk11-13
Proviron: 25mgs/day
(Mild dose of Var or Prop, i.e., 30mgs/day of var, or 100mgs eod of prop, up until PCT starts)

Wk14-16
HCG: 5000/3500/2500 (wks 1/2/3)
Nolva: 20mgs/day
Postcycle (protein factory)
unleashed (protein factory)
Colostrum
Creatine
gplenish

Wk17-19
Nolva: 20mgs/day
Postcycle (protein factory)
unleashed (protein factory)
Colostrum
Creatine
gplenish

Then continue with Postcycle, Unleashed, Creatine and GPlenish for 1 month.

I am choosing the PF herbal supps because I do actually like the ingredients that go into them, and would rather buy them bundled then all ingredients seperately. I am hoping by using a combination of herbs, drugs, and muscle-builders that I will be able to restore my HPTA, fast and efficiently, boost libido, and preserve all muscle, (and maybe even keep gaining, postcycle). Clomid could be used instead of Nolva, but as a personal choice I would rather go with Nolva. I am also planning on running a mid-cycle dose of HCG in the middle of the cycle for 1 week to pump my nuts, but not for the whole lenght of the cycle so that the LH receptor will not become desensitized to LH. Some may say that I am overdoing it with this PCT, but it really wont hurt, and I would rather overdo it, then underdo it. Oh ya ... I will probably also have some Viagras on hand, just in case I may run into any of those situations where I may find myself shooting pool with a rope. hehehe

Any suggestions ideas? Lets see some of the PCT formulas out there.

Cheers,
Mavy
 
lol...that was a long read for this time of night...

My current cycle is test and EQ weeks 1-12
Letrozole weeks 1-14
Here's mine:
DURING cycle HCG 500 IU once a week...

PCT regimen starting week 14:
Consisting of 20 mg nolva a day and 50 mg clomid a day for 3-6 weeks... (depending on how I feel)
Tribulus starting 14
Avena Sativa starting week 14
Creatine beginning week 15 or 16

I may go more a little more aggressive with the HCG at the end depending on how much atrophy I see at the time...
 
i always recommend a bit agressive PCT after all the point in running a cycle to begin with is to gain as much as possible, why not get a bit agressive in solifying every pound of muscle thats possible.


RADAR
 
The Terminator said:
lol...that was a long read for this time of night...

My current cycle is test and EQ weeks 1-12
Letrozole weeks 1-14
Here's mine:
DURING cycle HCG 500 IU once a week...

PCT regimen starting week 14:
Consisting of 20 mg nolva a day and 50 mg clomid a day for 3-6 weeks... (depending on how I feel)
Tribulus starting 14
Avena Sativa starting week 14
Creatine beginning week 15 or 16

I may go more a little more aggressive with the HCG at the end depending on how much atrophy I see at the time...
Click to expand...

I have never seen that before Term, nolva + clomid. Interesting to say the least, although they do close to the same thing, a small dose of each may help lower the sides that they both provide.
 
RADAR said:
i always recommend a bit agressive PCT after all the point in running a cycle to begin with is to gain as much as possible, why not get a bit agressive in solifying every pound of muscle thats possible.


RADAR
Click to expand...

I here you RADAR bro. My PCT is almost as long as my cycle, and aint cheap either. There is almost 2 whole parts to a cycle. I will take whatever measuers necessary. Dont want to loose a pound of the hard work that was put in!
 
Mavy said:


I have never seen that before Term, nolva + clomid. Interesting to say the least, although they do close to the same thing, a small dose of each may help lower the sides that they both provide.
Click to expand...

Well when I first came into this game it was clomid by itself...Then a very outspoken member got alot of guys thinking Nolva was a better alternative (but I didn't buy into atleast half of the things he said, so I figured since clomid worked fairly well for me I would just add Nolva to the mix (and have since tried them seprately to gauge their effectiveness on myself...And nolva by itself REALLY didn't cut it for me at all :(...)
Now I opt to use both concurrently

I think nolva is certainly the better anti e choice so at this point for me in PCT that is nolva's main purpose...for me...
 
This what I had in mind for post...
Monday 5000iu 100mg clomid
Tues 100mg Clomid
Wed 100mg Clomid
Thursday 100mg Clomid
Wed 100mg Clomid
Thursday 100mg clomid
Friday 100mg Clomid
Sat 100mg Clomid
week 2 Monday-Sun 100 clomid, With 1500iu Monday and Friday
Week 3 Mon-Sun 50 mg Clomid 500iu Tues and Sat.
Week 4 Mon-Sun 50 mg Clomid
Complete.

This is my proposed post cycle this time around...feel free to advise or tear apart.
 
I plan to use a combination of nolva and clomid along with trib/maca/creatine.

Just throwing everything but the kitchen sink in on this one.
 
HCG Post Cycle and unleashec and get this one......... Enzyte yes the male enhancement drug is also a great source PCT.
 
Ive tried the both routes and found that the nolva/hcg combo worked much better for. I think Ive dialed it in perfectly (for me anyway):

2 weeks of dbol at 20mg ed until PCT starts, then:

500iu HCG ed for two weeks
20mg Nolva ed for 5 weeks
proviron 25mg ed for 3-4 weeks
creatine(v12) 1 serving ed for 8 weeks
gplenish 3 scoops ed til next cycle :)
avena sativa 2 grams ed for 8 weeks

at week 6 of my last PCT I was still gaining, up almost 6 lbs from the end of my cycle.
 
Mythicalbeing said:
This what I had in mind for post...
Monday 5000iu 100mg clomid
Tues 100mg Clomid
Wed 100mg Clomid
Thursday 100mg Clomid
Wed 100mg Clomid
Thursday 100mg clomid
Friday 100mg Clomid
Sat 100mg Clomid
week 2 Monday-Sun 100 clomid, With 1500iu Monday and Friday
Week 3 Mon-Sun 50 mg Clomid 500iu Tues and Sat.
Week 4 Mon-Sun 50 mg Clomid
Complete.

This is my proposed post cycle this time around...feel free to advise or tear apart.
Click to expand...

IMHO, there is no need to inject 5000iu @ once. It will desensitize your balls and bring on gyno very quickly. It has been my experience that 500iuED for several consecutive days is healthier on your balls and still gives you max results from the Hcg. I know some cats who do 500iu EOD with optimum results over 2-3 weeks.

Instead of 5Kiu @ once I suggest splitting that up over ten days.

Peace!
 
HCG twice mid cycle... 500 iu's eod for 10 days.
Clomid 300mg's first day, 100mg's day 2 through 11. 50mg's day 12 through 21.
I also have Nova on hand in case needed during cylce.
*Clomid alone post cylce has worked wonders for me!
 
Clomid, Nolva, Maca, Avena Sativa and I'll also use some Yohimbine this time around. My balls don't shrink so I don't use HCG. Clomis?nolva to get the boyz producing again and Maca, Avena, Yohimbine to keep up sex drive.
 
confid12000 said:


Sorry Terminator, I read too quickly! So you combine both... Aren't both supposed to do the same thing?
Click to expand...

You mean nolva and clomid? I have tried doing them both separately and nolva didnt do shit for me...(I only tried it as so many were raving that it was a better alternative)...(thanks to ONE very outspoken fromer member), but nolva alone proved to be almost worthless for me...Cloimd alone actually works for me...so I dont really buy that they "do the same thing"...If given the choice between the two, I will take clomid everytime...

In PCT Nolva really only serves as an anti-e for me...
 
You know it's crazy because I've ran about 5 cycles now and have NEVER really done any PCT!!! WTF??? I lose about 75% of all my gains too! This time will be different though. Give a second and I will post what I have on hand and see if you guys can tell me how to run them....
 
I did not read any posts above. But in the far away future when I use aas again, I plan on expirementing with never coming off clomid between cycles.
 
30, 50mg tabs of clomid
3, 1500uis of hgc
30, 40mg tabs of nolva
40, 20mg tabs of nolva

PLEASE HELP??? **I'm afraid of the sides of clomid and would also like to know what kind of gains will I keep with the above durgs. THANKS!
 
Bumping this up for the continuing PCT Qs. Everyone's thoughts help.

Madmax, depending on what you are running, and for how long, I would go with a combination of HCG and Nolva. You may want to combine the Clomid and Nolva like Term suggested since you already have it. Clomid and Nolva seem to be a personal preference.
 
ulter said:
www.anabolicfitness.net

See: Post Cycle Recovery
Click to expand...

Very large wealth of knowledge over there, with different ideas from many users as well.

Its hard to really have 1 pct formula, you kinda have to read as much as you can, and put together your own formula based on your drugs being used, lenght of cycle, and what you have researched, or already know what works for you.
 
Good read on Clomid vs Nolvadex. May helpsome users make up their mind.


Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
By William Llewellyn

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.





Clomid and Nolvadex


I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.


Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH


But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.



The Estrogen Clomid


The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.



Conclusion


To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.


References:

1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
 
Thanks Mavy! I've read this before but it's good to read again. I really don't think this subject can be discussed too much. I'll will run both at the end of my cycle. How do you think I should run the 4500ius of HCG at the end of my cycle? Also, are the sides of Clomid as bad as people make them sound?
 
Madmatt, I would use 500IUs/day until gone with the HCG you have postcycle, along with 20mgs of nolva per day. It probably woulnt hurt to run the HCG a little longer depending on how harsh you cycle is. I think that HCG is a must for nandrolones, and is half the reason why people dont recover so well from deca if they are not using it.

Again, the clomid sides are really a personal preference. I have not really expereinced any bad sides from clomid except moodiness. I prefer to use Nolvadex because I believe it works better for the recovery. I dont really give a shit about moodiness, especially for 3 weeks, usually I can control my emotions. Others report seeing tracers and other vision distortions which would make me not want to use it again. Realy there is only one way to tell. Why dont you use both.

Run the Nolva with the HCG, and then clomid after you are done with the Nolva and HCG combo.
 
does clomid make anyone else feel like shit?

been about 2 weeks since I took my last clomid, and I am finally feeling better......I was rerally sluggish and tired etc. think this was clomid, or just typical post cycle crashing?

how long does clomid stay in your system?
 
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