Poor Squat Form

[British Bulldog]

Hi guys,

I do everything right when performing the back squat, but my knees still come together when squatting the weight up. All other motions are same as those described below.

Do you think a narrow stance can be the cause of this? I will try a wider stance next time. For a 6,3” guy, how much width should I allow between my feet? Also should feet point straight or be slightly angled?

Once again, thanks for your help guys.

EquipmentSetUp:
· Set up the rack pins so bar is even with top of axillary region (armpit)
· Set up the catch bars just below the parallel position

BodySetUp:
· Tighten upper back by pulling scapula together
· Find a comfortble position around the posterior deltoid (usually 1-4 inches below top of trapezious muscle)
· Once bar is placed, bring feet to hip witdth, take a deep breath, and drive feet through ground to unrack the weight
· Walk bar out and assume a much wider than hip-width stance

TechCheck Do's:
· Take a deep breath and hold before performance
· Simultaneously flex the knees and drive hips back, pushing outwards on the knees and feet
· Hold your breath until near completion of each repetition, slowly exhale towards top of movement
· Keep a natural arch in the back (lumbar lordosis)

 

[ffknight84]

a good friend of mine has the same problem. He is about 6'1-6'2. I would like to also know the answer too this so i can help him. I do know he has had some past knee problems though.

 

[casualbb]

Sounds like you have weak abductors (gluteus medius), responsible for spreading your legs. For a client with that problem I'd prescribe tube-walking -- its when you wrap an elastic tube around both mid-lower legs so it pulls your legs together. Then, you do tube-walking both front and back and side-to-side.

 

[pwr_machine]

It's not likely that a narrow stance would be the cause of such a problem. If your feet are not already angled outward, I'd consider making that small change. Then, think about your knees tracking in line with your feet as you squat.

 

[ffknight84]

hmm, pics of that???

 

[edgecrusher]

When the knees come together, it is generally an indication of weak vastus medialus obliques (vmo.) More commonly refered to as the "tear drop" muscle. Very simple to rectify, just switch to single leg movements such as split squats, step ups, peterson step ups, and make sure you get good depth on each move. I normally recomend going below parallel.

 

[ffknight84]

i dont have a problem with this but i could def use some work on my VMO, ill have to throw some of these in.

 

[pwr_machine]

When the knees come together, it is generally an indication of weak vastus medialus obliques (vmo.) More commonly refered to as the "tear drop" muscle.

I have to disagree. The vastus medialis oblique:

Origin = linea aspera and supracondylar line of the femur, and the tendon of adductor magnus

Action = extension of the knee

If anything, this muscle could be overcompensating due to weak abductor muscles as stated earlier. Please make yourself more clear on such a statement.

 

[ffknight84]

i dont have a problem with this but i could def use some work on my VMO, ill have to throw some of these in.

not that it is weak or anything, it is a lot less noticable then most people's, even those who lift a lot less, and are a lot smaller than I.

 

[bigguns15]

I have some trouble with this too. I concentrate on pushing my knees out on the decent of the squat and keeping them out on the ascent. I think part of my problem is an imbalance in my abductors/adductors. My adductors are much stronger from years of sumo deadlift.

 

[Curious George]

It sounds to me like you need to work on the adductors. Usually when the knee goes in it's a pretty good sign of that. When the knees go out, it usually means week abductors.

In powerlifting and especially WSB the knees should some out because of trying to squat wide with the hams, glutes and lower back. The quads are not that big of a deal in the squat . By pushing the knees out you help your leverage. But I think that is different than what you are talking about.

 

[spatts]

knees cave + weak hips

Cure:

Dimel Deads
Kneeling Squats
Belt Squats
Sumo Deads

 

[British Bulldog]

So many opinions. Im gonna point my toes outwards and a use a slightly wider stance. Im also gonna focus more on trying to keep my knees out when ascending.

Prior to starting squats I had been leg pressing for several years. Could this have been the culprint?

 

[pwr_machine]

It sounds to me like you need to work on the adductors. Usually when the knee goes in it's a pretty good sign of that. When the knees go out, it usually means week abductors.

In powerlifting and especially WSB the knees should some out because of trying to squat wide with the hams, glutes and lower back. The quads are not that big of a deal in the squat . By pushing the knees out you help your leverage. But I think that is different than what you are talking about.

Adduction = ADD! = moves the legs together

Abduction = the opposite = moves the legs apart

Your explanation has been stated at least once before on this thread! Need to work on adductors? That's what's possibly pulling the knees together. Bigguns15 gave a prime example of why adductors could be stronger, not weaker! Let's get the info correct before we confuse the hell out of British Bulldog.

 

[edgecrusher]

I have to disagree. The vastus medialis oblique:

Origin = linea aspera and supracondylar line of the femur, and the tendon of adductor magnus

Action = extension of the knee

If anything, this muscle could be overcompensating due to weak abductor muscles as stated earlier. Please make yourself more clear on such a statement.

The function of the VMO is also stability and positioning of the knee. A strong VMO is crucial for joint stability and balance.

 

[pwr_machine]

The function of the VMO is also stability and positioning of the knee. A strong VMO is crucial for joint stability and balance.

Medialalis = middle, right?

Muscles shorten, right?

Here's an example, a muscle on the medial side of your leg contracts. Hmm...leg is pulled in/adduction. Therefore, I see a weakness on the outside/abduction.

And I agree with joint stability and balance. However, I don't think it's the culprit of his problem.

 

[pwr_machine]

So many opinions. Im gonna point my toes outwards and a use a slightly wider stance. Im also gonna focus more on trying to keep my knees out when ascending.

You're on the right track. It takes practice.

 

[edgecrusher]

Medialalis = middle, right?

Muscles shorten, right?

Here's an example, a muscle on the medial side of your leg contracts. Hmm...leg is pulled in/adduction. Therefore, I see a weakness on the outside/abduction.

And I agree with joint stability and balance. However, I don't think it's the culprit of his problem.

You just said, that when the VMO contracts it flexes the knee. THe same muscle can not perform 2 functions at the same time. As the individual descends, the VMO exerts an isometric contraction to hold the knee in place. When it is not strong enough to support said load, the knee caves in.

 

[pwr_machine]

You just said, that when the VMO contracts it flexes the knee. THe same muscle can not perform 2 functions at the same time. As the individual descends, the VMO exerts an isometric contraction to hold the knee in place. When it is not strong enough to support said load, the knee caves in.

I said the VMO and EXTENSION of the knee in an earlier post. Don't put words in my mouth. And, my reference most recent said "a muscle", not the VMO. I was making a general reference that a medial muscle would act by pulling inward. That's not to say the VMO causes adduction! By insertion, it can't! Here's a quiz. Sit there in your chair and pull your legs out. Which muscles are contracting? Could it be your abductors? And if they were stronger, do you think your knees would move medially.

 

[edgecrusher]

I understand what you are saying pwr_machine. But part of the vmo's function is stability of the knee joint, and it is activated when the indivdual is in a low squatting position. When the vmo is weak the knee caves. This is common in most trainees I work with. But without seeing the indivdual perform his movement, I can not say for sure.

 

[Curious George]

pwr...I might be wrong here and knowing myself I probably am, but I have talked to a couple of strength coaches about the knees coming in. Their theory was that when they come in, the adductors are weak so they overcompensate by bringing the knees in. Mine did this when I started to train and making the adductors stronger seemed to help alleviate that problem.

 

[casualbb]

pwr is absolutely correct. For some reason or another, the adductors have become tight, lengthening the abductors and making them correspondingly weak. Like I said earlier, strengthen the abductors however you want, and static stretch the adductors BEFORE you lift. Hold for at least 20 seconds.

 

[pwr_machine]

pwr...I might be wrong here and knowing myself I probably am, but I have talked to a couple of strength coaches about the knees coming in. Their theory was that when they come in, the adductors are weak so they overcompensate by bringing the knees in. Mine did this when I started to train and making the adductors stronger seemed to help alleviate that problem.

Don't consider yourself wrong. We're all learning something new here. I think Bigguns15 gave a good example in an earlier post that shows "stronger" adductors overcompensating. The debate goes on...

 

[bigguns15]

I have a theory based strickly on observation. I've noticed that females tend to have this problem more than males. Perhaps it has to do with a wider hip structure. Maybe if a male has a slightly wider hip structure than normal, he could have a similar problem? Just a thought to ponder.

Also, if you look at the muscles of the leg, you find there are more muscles that adduct the leg than abduct it. Hence, you would need to strengthen those abductor muscles in order to compensate.

 

[Curious George]

This was taken of a thread at AF. The author is Killer and I hope he doesn't mind me reposting this:
Feet Flatten (pronate) and externally rotate (turn out): May indicate tightness in soleus, gastrocnemius, peroneals, hamstring and piriformis and/or weakness in gluteus medius.

Knees buckle inward: May indicate weak/inhibited gluteus maximus/medius, tight adductors and iliotibial band (IT band).

Low back arches: May indicate tight iliopsoas and/or other hip flexors and latissimus dorsi, compensating for a weak core.

Low back rounds: May indicate overactive external obliques, compensating for a weak core.

Arms fall forward: May indicate tight latissimus dorsi and/or pectoralis major/minor and weak lower trapezius, rhomboids, teres minor and infraspinatus.

Cervical spine: If it hyperextends, this may indicate overactive sternocleidomastoid and weak stabilizers.


So this is supporting that knees going inward are weak abductors

I stand corrected folks. Thank you for the replies to this thread.