No wonder Michael Moore loves the UAW

[spongebob]

Sure. But it is still true that absent unions, the prices of labor would drop, so would the price of cars.



?

matt i know you look at everything from a business perspective, but what do we really want here the very cheapest possible labor, why not just allow kids to do the labor for 2.73/hr with no benefits.

this is not a free market, never has been i think. and i dont want it to be, it benefits everyone for society to strike a balance.

 

[spongebob]

It's bad because the pension programs of many companies (not just GM) are driving companies that would otherwise be viable into financial ruin. The pension program itself wasn't the issue -- it was the out of control benefits and costs of the programs.

Also... it makes stuff more expensive!

lol. thats joke right? its bad that companies provide pensions and benefits. why dont we just discontinue all benefits. no health insurance, no retirement, and drop all wages to $1/hr.

i think it wouldnt work, the system is inter-dependent.

 

[spongebob]

mr. dB,

Would you rather pay $22,000 for a car or $20,000? Also does not help market competitiveness. The idea is to reduce as many "costs of doing business" as possible. The article above talks about the competitive downward spiral the big three are in.

?

i would rather pay a dollar, its just not feasible matt.

and what is, "as possible"? vauge and subjective.

 

[spongebob]

*in my best Droopy Voice*.....ahem

Oh well ...golly gee wiz.... looks like its a horrible thing and theres nothing we can do ...Boy oh Boy ....its always been bad and its always going to be this way ....oh golly... and they signed thier union cards so theres nothing they can do ...oh golly gee willikers...and they are soldiers too ..they should be treated better than that...gosh o gosh.... Looks like we have to deal with it ... oh Gosh..and everythings so expensive...gosh ..what are we going to do?....

very well said actually.

 

[BrothaBill]

you made sense of that. Also on the pensions and labor costs, its something that the society and community have stated time and again as something that is of value beyond the cost of goods and services. THose are just ways building in those values into the system.

 

[CFZB]

you made sense of that. Also on the pensions and labor costs, its something that the society and community have stated time and again as something that is of value beyond the cost of goods and services. THose are just ways building in those values into the system.

God you realy hate The american workers dont you?

 

[spongebob]

you made sense of that. Also on the pensions and labor costs, its something that the society and community have stated time and again as something that is of value beyond the cost of goods and services. THose are just ways building in those values into the system.

what are you talking about????




j/k. damn good point wingman!!!

 

[BrothaBill]

God you realy hate The american workers dont you?

Id have to care first which I dont, so they may live, their bitching amuses me



Spongebob:

j/k. damn good point wingman!!!

Right back at ya my darkwingduckman!!!

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

matt i know you look at everything from a business perspective, but what do we really want here the very cheapest possible labor, why not just allow kids to do the labor for 2.73/hr with no benefits.

this is not a free market, never has been i think. and i dont want it to be, it benefits everyone for society to strike a balance.

I look at everything from an individual rights perspective. There is no way that a collective body should have the influence that the UAW does. I don't have a problem with unions per se; individuals are free to organize into groups, but their employer should be free to fire all of them without repercussions.

Unions did serve a purpose; they stopped the child labor you alluded to, although it is worth mentioning that kids in factories were preceded by kids working on the farm in an equally brutal world, subject to famine and drought etc.

Urbanization and industrialization, while harsh in their untamed origins, actually improved the quality of life for millions, even the kids who worked in factories and mines.

We sometimes imagine (and propaganda supports this fantasy) that life for kids was idyllic and joyful before the evil factories and captialist pigs came along. In fact, factories made their lives better. The agrarian life was brutal and irregular, and subject to weather without regard for human effort. The 12 hour workday and 7 day work week for adults was the same as agrarian life anyway.

Urbanization and factory work were great for America. Nevertheless, unions played a critical role in civilizing the business owners and ensuring humane treatment as the industrial revolution went on. However, much of what unions have fought for is now statutory, and in many ways unions have outlived their usefulness, becoming a bane rather than boon to the economy.

As far as "benefits to society"....that is a hollow phrase, sir. Society is nothing more than a group of individuals. Individuals have rights; there are no special rights that a "society" has, in a free nation there are no collective bodies that accrue special rights. Thus my distaste for unions bastardizing the political process to gain unequal leverage.

Individuals should have the right to choose the terms of their employment. In a free nation, employment is a voluntary agreement between two parties. Let's keep it that way.

I love freedom. I am not that crazy about business. I want the market to determine someone's wage, not collectivization.

 

[BrothaBill]

Here is the steps necessary to solve these questions

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.