no wonder iraqis hate us

[buddy28]

I don´t believe that all repercussions from a given policy decision are unforseeable,

hes right. Its called human nature. when people get stepped on they unite and fight back. Ironic many Americans beleive nationally unity prompted by exposure to an external threat is somehow an 'American phenomenon'.


The American Government expected eventual foriegn retaliation all along. I wouldnt be surprised if they just didnt care, or even worse, consciously incited it so they could outwardly justify invading and occupying middle eastern countries when they eventually fought back.

Think about that. Thats probably exactly whats going on. Its not like they actually give a fuck about foreign life. Its probably the United States 50 year plan. Push everyone hard enough until they fight back, then crush them to the ground and take their resources.

What a joke.

 

[spongebob]

However, the ruling Saudi Monarchy is unrepresentative of the domestic populace, who only occupy a position of leadership largely because of their reliance on US economic and political 'assistence'. So theyre really no authority on the matter either.

Whats the global champion of human rights and freedoms doing supporting a corrupt undemocratic regime with a dismal human rights record anyway?

maybe so, but we were allowed to be there for the gulf war.

oil. plain and simple. with 2/3 of the proven crude oil reserves in the world, it must be the oil.

 

[casavant]

The day the US will attack either Saudi Arabia or China I will respect them.

Where did you say you were from again?


Playin' man, playin'...

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

Think about that. Thats probably exactly whats going on. Its not like they actually give a fuck about foreign life. Its probably the United States 50 year plan. Push everyone hard enough until they fight back, then crush them to the ground and take their resources.

What a joke.

Survival of the fittest.....sounds like a great plan to me.

And you are probably right about not caring about foreign life. I know I sure as hell do not.

 

[buddy28]

we do not change our policies acorrding to what madmen want.

this is what i was referring too. Its not just one lone madman who wants America out. Arguably, the majority of the Saudi populace wants America out.


The Saudi Monarchy has been channeling hundreds of millions of dollars to the Winebbi?! miltant Islamic sect to deter them from overthrowing the Saudi monarchy. the Winnebi sect couldnt establish the political legitmacy necessary to overthrow the house of Fahd unless they enjoyed the majority support of the Saudi populace. So unless these extremist Islamic sect holds alot of weight with the Saudi poplace, they wouldnt be getting all this money from the House of Fahd to deter them from overthrowing the Saudi monarchy. and the winnebi sect, last time i checked, was a hardline Islamic sect = anti american.

perhaps someone can post some links. Ill look for some later.

 

[buddy28]

maybe so, but we were allowed to be there for the gulf war.

And now that domestic political support for the Saudi monarchy is detoriating and their legitmacy is buckeling, King Fahd is refusing any American military offensive launched from Saudi soil because it will further jepordize his monarchys capricous grip on power.

oil. plain and simple. with 2/3 of the proven crude oil reserves in the world, it must be the oil.

and your ok with that?

 

[buddy28]

And you are probably right about not caring about foreign life. I know I sure as hell do not.

Good for you.

 

[buddy28]

should we start to limit our involvement? if we did would we have another hitler? he was left alone untill it was too late.

ok. Good point. But historically, a significant portion of United States Government involvement in Middle Eastern affairs has been underhanded, devious, and has fostered contempt and hatred for America within Muslim nations.

So the question remains, how does America exercise influence in the Middle East, which is at least semi conducive to US interests, while respecting the rights of soverign Muslim states to guide their own political, social, and economic evolution?

Or am I being too presumptious? Or do we even want to lay our cards on the table here. heh.

 

[minion]

Minion,

Likening David Mills act of vengeance to Americas loss on sept 11th cannot be compared because the circumstances which surround the losses of both parties are different.

David Mills never provoked the serial killer to murder his wife. America has provocated and played the role of antagonizer in Muslim countries over the past several decades which significantly influenced the development of extreme anti American sentiment while providing motivation for Islamic terrorists to carry out sept 11th attacks.

David Mills was blameless for his wifes death. Therefore, exacting retribution for his wifes death was justified under moral law.

Tell this to the innocent. The fatherless and motherless.
This rebuttle does nothing to convince me otherwise. If two wrongs knowingly don't make a right then I will choose to be twice as wrong. Rather than getting reduced to paint while at work. Right and wrong is a non-issue at this juncture even if it were decided unequivocally it would still be moot. The task will still be at hand.

 

[buddy28]

Tell this to the innocent. The fatherless and motherless.
This rebuttle does nothing to convince me otherwise. If two wrongs knowingly don't make a right then I will choose to be twice as wrong. Rather than getting reduced to paint while at work. Right and wrong is a non-issue at this juncture even if it were decided unequivocally it would still be moot. The task will still be at hand.

heh. Patriot to the day you die, huh?

Minion, u give lip service to the desire for peace. But your not willing to work for it.

Im trying to show you your Government is just as guilty as the sept 11th hijackers. Theyve killed. Theyve murdered. Theyve antagonized Muslim nations until they incited retaliation. Now the US is playing the forlorn victim.

You need to hate because your job requires it of you. Youve made a decision to serve your country, and now youve become of victim of its propoganda. Your mind is almost closed. But theres still hope.

 

[minion]

Minion,
Ironically, David Mills gets taking away in the cop car at the end of the movie.

There are repercussions to the actions we take. We're not animals. We have the choice to exercise restraint or not. America is not the victim. Your conveniently looking at history through a fragmented paradigm which considers events only recent enough to pull no relationship between historical US foreign policy and the gestation and widespread adoption of militant Islamic sects.

This goes both ways. Nevermind that though. *moot*
I believe your being mislead. America is the only one in this exercising restraint. Iraq's only discipline is opportunity. Hence the sanctions and U.N. inspectors. The country of Iraq receives billions in humanitarian aid to care for its citizens. Despite these efforts Sadam allows his people only a fraction of that and pockets the rest yet continues to pursure weapons of mass destruction.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

heh. Patriot to the day you die, huh?

Minion, u give lip service to the desire for peace. But your not willing to work for it.

Im trying to show you your Government is just as guilty as the sept 11th hijackers. Theyve killed. Theyve murdered. Theyve antagonized Muslim nations until they incited retaliation. Now the US is playing the forlorn victim.

I actually agree with you on this point. I knew that eventually one of these countries would retatliate against us. Our government is a piece of shit and something needs to be down now. This is were I believe our differences come into play. I think we are simply in way too deep for our own good. It would not matter one bit if the US withdrew from the middle east and even stopped supporting Israel. These people will still hate us and still look for opportunities to retalitate against the US. Peace will never take place on this earth. I can guarantee you that.

So we either risk more attacks and we start fighting everyone of these people. It looks like you are for the first option while I am for the second. I am pretty sure we will eventually have fight them all so we might as well start picking some of them off as early as possible.

 

[buddy28]

This goes both ways. Nevermind that though. *moot*

The United States is drunk with its own power. Yes theres a need for imposing unilateral global governce if the situation warrants. Sponge noted Hitler.

However, the US Government doesnt seem to understand the princibles of comprimise and respect. They just wanna come to table, gobble down all the fucking cake, and slam the door on the way out.

I believe your being mislead. America is the only one in this exercising restraint.

How? By not nucing the entire middle east? The US military response to sept 11th attacks is restrained mostly for reasons outside the Bush administration, not within. The Bush Administration, or should I say influential members of the Bush administration, understand unbridled US retaliation against Muslim countries is just going to lead to more anti american sentiment......increasing the likilhood of more domestic terrorist attacks. ect. ect.

The country of Iraq receives billions in humanitarian aid to care for its citizens. Despite these efforts Sadam allows his people only a fraction of that and pockets the rest yet continues to pursure weapons of mass destruction.

I already addressed this before in reply to nordstroms post. I can post it if you like. I agree. Saddams a terriable leader. But we consciously financed that terriable leader and armed him to the teeth, which although not intended for the United States orginal purpose, precluded any chance the Iraqi civilian populace could overthrow Saddam if they so choosed. Therefore, the US had the moral imperative to take Saddam out at the end of the Gulf War. Didnt happen.

 

[minion]

heh. Patriot to the day you die, huh?

I know the flaws of my country. The USA isn't perfect. I've been to many different countries, many of which I like. However I'm an American by birth right and by choice. Yes I'am a patriot with patriotic sensibility.

Minion, u give lip service to the desire for peace. But your not willing to work for it.

Not at the risk of fellow Americans and my allies.
"If its morally licit for an individual or individuals, employing a means that entail the eventuality of either injury and death for the assailant then it is even more licit for the civil authority acting on behalf of the common good of society to do the same. Thus we have the scenario of war. In which we are confronted with the necessity of injuring and killing people we do not know."

Im trying to show you your Government is just as guilty as the sept 11th hijackers. Theyve killed. Theyve murdered. Theyve antagonized Muslim nations until they incited retaliation. Now the US is playing the forlorn victim.

You know better than to present this refuse. I'm not going to respond to this because its childish and foolish conjecture.

You need to hate because your job requires it of you. Youve made a decision to serve your country, and now youve become of victim of its propoganda.

Who is the propagandist here? You?

You've never seen our countries leaders make speaches to the tune of, "The streets of Iraq will flow with blood. First we will kill you then we will hang you and then we shoot you, blah, blah, blah." Of course not that would be the psycho in head office Baghdad.

Furthermore there is no difference between the propaganda I bought into and the one you bought into. Your argument is based on brand loyalty and the fact I'm intrenched in my beliefs and not easily swayed. Yet I NEVER called you a "victim" of your brand. Shameful tactic on your part.

Your mind is almost closed. But theres still hope.

I consider myself very open minded. But I have to filter alot out. Some people may have other names for their filters, I call mine LOGIC.

 

[buddy28]

Our government is a piece of shit and something needs to be down now.

Eboney and Ivorey, go together like perfect harmony.

It would not matter one bit if the US withdrew from the middle east and even stopped supporting Israel. These people will still hate us and still look for opportunities to retalitate against the US. Peace will never take place on this earth. I can guarantee you that.

This is where i disagree. If people actually learned to start respecting each other, developing a sincere empathetic understanding for other cultures, peace could happen. Muslims are human. They bleed the same as us, feel the same as us, are motivated by the same needs as us.

We are more alike than we are different. We need to apoligize. To right past wrongs. To share. And to move forward. If we do that, there will be peace.

So we either risk more attacks and we start fighting everyone of these people. It looks like you are for the first option while I am for the second. I am pretty sure we will eventually have fight them all so we might as well start picking some of them off as early as possible.

Well, this is eventually going to lead us into world war 3. Probably within the next ten to twenty years.

 

[BO-CEPHUS]

This is where i disagree. If people actually learned to start respecting each other, developing a sincere empathetic understanding for other cultures, peace could happen. Muslims are human. They bleed the same as us, feel the same as us, are motivated by the same needs as us.

We are more alike than we are different. We need to apoligize. To right past wrongs. To share. And to move forward. If we do that, there will be peace.

In my opinion, it is too late for apologies. The damage has been done. Our government has apologized for slavery, yet our race relations in this country are not much better. There will also be conflict in the world no matter what. I was once like you in thinking that peace was possible, but that is simply not reality. I am to the point where my survival comes first no matter what.

Well, this is eventually going to lead us into world war 3. Probably within the next ten to twenty years.

Agreed.

 

[buddy28]

"If its morally licit for an individual or individuals, employing a means that entail the eventuality of either injury and death for the assailant then it is even more licit for the civil authority acting on behalf of the common good of society to do the same. Thus we have the scenario of war. In which we are confronted with the necessity of injuring and killing people we do not know."

I agree with the moral justification for war completely. However, your conflating the assailant with the original victim. The original assailant is the US Government. The original victim is Muslim nations whose affairs have been maliciously manipulated by the US Government which has resulted in significant CIVILIAN DEATH.

Who has the moral imperative to initiate war now?

The US Government started this fight, and the Muslims responded on sept 11th. Now your crying foul like propping up undemocratically elected regimes and dictators that kill thousands of their own citizens isn't moral justification for a war.

You've got your war. Except your on the wrong side of morality. Thats really not my fault.

You know better than to present this refuse. I'm not going to respond to this because its childish and foolish conjecture.

In case you didnt notice, you were handing out the same 'refuse' as you call it, a few posts back.

Tell this to the innocent. The fatherless and motherless.

Theres nothing childish or foolish about it. You have a point, and I have a point. You only wish to focus on your nations hurt, and your own loss, so u can elicit the cognitive fortitude it takes to repress the hypocrisy inherent in denying the justifiable acts which were executed against your nation on sept 11th.

Ever heard of the concept of cognitive dissonance? You should really look it up. Has so many applications.

You've never seen our countries leaders make speeches to the tune of, "The streets of Iraq will flow with blood. First we will kill you then we will hang you and then we shoot you, blah, blah, blah." Of course not that would be the psycho in head office Baghdad.

Yea, thats because instead of those speeches our leaders use reserved head nods behind closed doors so no one is none the wiser.

Does that make us more civilized?

Reminds me of Jesus' parable of the Pharisees. All clean and attractive on the outside. Filled with dirt and filth in the inside.

Furthermore there is no difference between the propaganda I bought into and the one you bought into. Your argument is based on brand loyalty and the fact I'm intrenched in my beliefs and not easily swayed. Yet I NEVER called you a "victim" of your brand. Shameful tactic on your part.

Brand loyalty. Good one.

Want to know why your a victim of your nations propaganda?

Because the propaganda you buy into recklessly devalues human life outside of your own in-group. While our Creator, the one that you pray to, decrees all human life equal. No matter what race, color, sect or creed.

You should meditate on that. Christ, our God, the God this nation was founded upon, esteems no man, no community, no nation over another. There are differences between us, but he implores us to work them out, civilly, and come to a compromise.

Compromise can be found. But your previous posts indicate your not looking for compromise. Your looking for vengeance. Even when its not justly accorded to you or your nation.

Have you thought out your position logically in accordance with Gods Law?

"I consider myself very open minded. But I have to filter alot out. Some people may have other names for their filters, I call mine LOGIC.

Survival of the fittest. That works great in a universe devoid of moral Creator. But thankfully, we don't live in a universe without a God.


Heres a passage I didn't comprehend for a long time. Now I do, and am thankful for it.

Proverbs Chapter 1 Verse 7. Old Testament.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,.."

 

[minion]

I agree with the moral justification for war completely. However, your conflating the assailant with the original victim. The original assailant is the US Government. The original victim is Muslim nations whose affairs have been maliciously manipulated by the US Government which has resulted in significant CIVILIAN DEATH.

Who has the moral imperative to initiate war now?

The US Government started this fight, and the Muslims responded on sept 11th. Now your crying foul like propping up undemocratically elected regimes and dictators that kill thousands of their own citizens isn't moral justification for a war.

You've got your war. Except your on the wrong side of morality. Thats really not my fault.

In case you didnt notice, you were handing out the same 'refuse' as you call it, a few posts back.

Theres nothing childish or foolish about it. You have a point, and I have a point. You only wish to focus on your nations hurt, and your own loss, so u can elicit the cognitive fortitude it takes to repress the hypocrisy inherent in denying the justifiable acts which were executed against your nation on sept 11th.

Ever heard of the concept of cognitive dissonance? You should really look it up. Has so many applications.

Yea, thats because instead of those speeches our leaders use reserved head nods behind closed doors so no one is none the wiser.

Does that make us more civilized?

Reminds me of Jesus' parable of the Pharisees. All clean and attractive on the outside. Filled with dirt and filth in the inside.




Brand loyalty. Good one.

Want to know why your a victim of your nations propaganda?

Because the propaganda you buy into recklessly devalues human life outside of your own in-group. While our Creator, the one that you pray to, decrees all human life equal. No matter what race, color, sect or creed.

You should meditate on that. Christ, our God, the God this nation was founded upon, esteems no man, no community, no nation over another. There are differences between us, but he implores us to work them out, civilly, and come to a compromise.

Compromise can be found. But your previous posts indicate your not looking for compromise. Your looking for vengeance. Even when its not justly accorded to you or your nation.

Have you thought out your position logically in accordance with Gods Law?

Survival of the fittest. That works great in a universe devoid of moral Creator. But thankfully, we don't live in a universe without a God.

Heres a passage I didn't comprehend for a long time. Now I do, and am thankful for it.

Proverbs Chapter 1 Verse 7. Old Testament.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,.."

Buddy, I applaude you for your vision and idealism.
Although be advised. Your fast approaching territory inhabited by traitors IMO if you think America deserved 9/11.

I'm conflating you say? Negative. If I'm a target the solution is crystal clear. No one manipulated them anymore than we were manipulated when they were playing both sides during the Cold War era. You obviosly have no idea the concerted magnitude and effort that goes into running this country.

I wish it was as simple as you seem to believe, but I don't think you believe what you say.

If you want to quote scripture as a catalyst, I'll play your game.


"eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." Deuteronomy, 19:21

"smite the Midianites as one man." Judges, 6:16

"And thou shalt smite the house of Ahab thy master, that I may avenge the blood of my servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the LORD, at the hand of Jezebel....And the dogs shall eat Jezebel in the portion of Jezreel, and there shall be none to bury her." 2 Kings, 9: 7, 10

"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up....A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace....every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God." Ecclesiastes, 3:1-3, 8, 13

"Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; they blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it." Ezekiel, 21:32

"The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth." Nahum, 1:3-4

I could go on. Or if I wanted I could get into interpetation of Biblical prophecy. Or quote alot of other books and authors. But I digress that's not really my style. I prefer to stand on my own.

 

[minion]

I agree with the moral justification for war completely. However, your conflating the assailant with the original victim. The original assailant is the US Government. The original victim is Muslim nations whose affairs have been maliciously manipulated by the US Government which has resulted in significant CIVILIAN DEATH.

Who has the moral imperative to initiate war now?

Wrong Iraq went into Kuwait, the U.N. stepped in to bail out Saudi and Kuwait. That's what put Iraq on the map. No one was too concerned when it was Iran and Iraq. Our intervention there was no different than the Soviets intervention.
The audacity to say America had "Malicious intentions". Malicious intent is when you use chem/bio vectors to annialate your own citizens. That alone was enough for the U.N. to storm the gates.
Who has the moral imperative, from where I sit WE do! 90% of the people of Iraq would agree. I'm not against the people of Iraq, I'm against the regime.

 

[minion]

The US Government started this fight, and the Muslims responded on sept 11th. Now your crying foul like propping up undemocratically elected regimes and dictators that kill thousands of their own citizens isn't moral justification for a war.

You've got your war. Except your on the wrong side of morality. Thats really not my fault.

Wrong again, it was in process long before Soviet/American intervention. Actaully I believe it was the U.K. that was there first.
Even if you were correct ,which you are not 9/11 still isn't justified.

The last part of the above quote has me perplexed. Since morality is very much a matter of perspective, I don't see how it carries any weight. And if it did, which it dosn't morally America is superior to Iraq on standard alone, but then again I'm American. What else would you expect me to say?

 

[minion]

In case you didnt notice, you were handing out the same 'refuse' as you call it, a few posts back.

Where?
I said your post was like feces because I found it to be the case. Especially when you say we deserved to have hijacked planes flown into sky scrappers causing them to crash into a pile of ash.

Yeah, that's garbage right there. [/B][/QUOTE]

Theres nothing childish or foolish about it. You have a point, and I have a point. You only wish to focus on your nations hurt, and your own loss, so u can elicit the cognitive fortitude it takes to repress the hypocrisy inherent in denying the justifiable acts which were executed against your nation on sept 11th.

Ever heard of the concept of cognitive dissonance? You should really look it up. Has so many applications.

If you consider, hold on allow me to paraphrase, "America is EVIL and the root to everything that is wrong in the world" if you call that making a point? I find it humorous. I'm curious Buddy where are you from?

Yea, thats because instead of those speeches our leaders use reserved head nods behind closed doors so no one is none the wiser.

Its always good business to hold something in reserve.
This is a trait of human nature. Animals make propagandistic speaches like Sadam. Read his speaches before Desert Storm same mindless garbage.

Does that make us more civilized?

Yes

Reminds me of Jesus' parable of the Pharisees. All clean and attractive on the outside. Filled with dirt and filth in the inside.

And what would the Bible say about Sadam? I know what it would say. Probably somthing about not acquiting the wicked and smiting. Somebody is always getting smited in the Old Testament.

Brand loyalty. Good one.

Thanx, not only is it fashionable, but functional as well.

Want to know why your a victim of your nations propaganda?

Because the propaganda you buy into recklessly devalues human life outside of your own in-group. While our Creator, the one that you pray to, decrees all human life equal. No matter what race, color, sect or creed.

I thought you were going to tell me why I'm a victim of my nations propaganda?

You should meditate on that. Christ, our God, the God this nation was founded upon, esteems no man, no community, no nation over another. There are differences between us, but he implores us to work them out, civilly, and come to a compromise.

Oh yeah well MY God also says: "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up....A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace....every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God." Ecclesiastes, 3:1-3, 8, 13

Compromise can be found. But your previous posts indicate your not looking for compromise. Your looking for vengeance. Even when its not justly accorded to you or your nation.

There is no compromise. Sadam won't let the inspectors in, continues to violate the decree for him to discontinue pursuing weapons of mass destruction, mis-appropiates the care-aid funds, continues to threaten the U.S., ect, ect, ect.

Have you thought out your position logically in accordance with Gods Law?

You mean this one?: "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." Deuteronomy, 19:21


Yeah I'm thinking about.

Survival of the fittest. That works great in a universe devoid of moral Creator. But thankfully, we don't live in a universe without a God.

Some do and that's alright as well.

Heres a passage I didn't comprehend for a long time. Now I do, and am thankful for it.
Proverbs Chapter 1 Verse 7. Old Testament.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,.."

cool

 

[aurelius]

You've never seen our countries leaders make speaches to the tune of, "The streets of Iraq will flow with blood. First we will kill you then we will hang you and then we shoot you, blah, blah, blah." Of course not that would be the psycho in head office Baghdad.

Words words words. Who cares what they say. Look at what they DO.

 

[minion]

Words words words. Who cares what they say. Look at what they DO.

Sadam is just as delinquent in his actions as well.

 

[buddy28]

Wrong Iraq went into Kuwait, the U.N. stepped in to bail out Saudi and Kuwait. That's what put Iraq on the map. No one was too concerned when it was Iran and Iraq.

I was reffering to Muslim peoples who historically have been exploited by the US Government as the original victim. Not Iraq. You have to think in the aggregate. These people stick together. Bin Ladens actions were motivated not only by the United States support of the undemocratically elected Saudi Monarchy and US occupation of Saudi military bases, but also the United States role in Iraq, Iran, Isreali-Palistinine crisis ect.

 

[buddy28]

The last part of the above quote has me perplexed. Since morality is very much a matter of perspective, I don't see how it carries any weight. And if it did, which it dosn't morally America is superior to Iraq on standard alone, but then again I'm American. What else would you expect me to say?

This quote sums up your position well. You cant even fathom how the United States is on the wrong side of history and how your nations historical foreign policy has had maliscous intent.

Why? Because your shit smellls good. Everyone likes the smelll of their own brand right?

Your a patriot. Which is why you cant understand what Im saying. Your blind to the unequivocal truth that all Gods children are created equal and your nation has engaged in UNPROVOCATED manipulation of foreign Muslim Governments resulting in the significant loss of civilian life, which, by your definition, is justifiable reason to initiate war.

And let me clarify. By YOUR OWN definition, the United States deserved what happened on sept 11th.

"If its morally licit for an individual or individuals, employing a means that entail the eventuality of either injury and death for the assailant then it is even more licit for the civil authority acting on behalf of the common good of society to do the same. Thus we have the scenario of war. In which we are confronted with the necessity of injuring and killing people we do not know."

I dont condone murder, and I dont condone the sept 11th terrorist attacks. But like Ive said before, and keep on repeating over and over again, you push a nation, you exploit them, you prop up dictators that are unrepresentative of the people and stomp on their freedoms and lives so you can fill up your tank at 90 cents a gallon, well, theyll be consequences. And justly so.

Oh yea. And who supported Britan side by side when the Iranians decieded to nationalize their petroleum industry?

Looks like America got caught on the wrong side of history, again.


Those who judge will be judged.


Anyhow, Ive said my peace.

 

[minion]

This quote sums up your position well. You cant even fathom how the United States is on the wrong side of history and how your nations historical foreign policy has had maliscous intent.

Why? Because your shit smellls good. Everyone likes the smelll of their own brand right?

Your a patriot. Which is why you cant understand what Im saying. Your blind to the unequivocal truth that all Gods children are created equal and your nation has engaged in UNPROVOCATED manipulation of foreign Muslim Governments resulting in the significant loss of civilian life, which, by your definition, is justifiable reason to initiate war.

And let me clarify. By YOUR OWN definition, the United States deserved what happened on sept 11th.



I dont condone murder, and I dont condone the sept 11th terrorist attacks. But like Ive said before, and keep on repeating over and over again, you push a nation, you exploit them, you prop up dictators that are unrepresentative of the people and stomp on their freedoms and lives so you can fill up your tank at 90 cents a gallon, well, theyll be consequences. And justly so.

Oh yea. And who supported Britan side by side when the Iranians decieded to nationalize their petroleum industry?

Looks like America got caught on the wrong side of history, again.


Those who judge will be judged.


Anyhow, Ive said my peace.

Duly noted. Then we agree to disagree. However.

My perspective is a matter of reality. According to U.N. guide lines
America is within her right. I'm sure the USA tested the limits of these rules of diplomacy at times, but there was never any direct aggression that wasn't warranted. Many countries before the USA have had their time in the lime light. Right now it is our turn. Because of American influence we have been made targets.

I have stacks of books on American injustice and conspiracy theory. I do my own investigation of my country. (From my library for reference try: Behold a pale white horse, New World order, Children of the Matrix, One nation under isreal, The cosmic conspiracy, I'm not a number, Guns germs and steel, ect just to name a few) I don't blindly accept them as fact I've cross referenced them and made my own judgment. I've come to the conclusion that America is an ongoing project. It didn't turn me into an anti-American if anything it showed me the fragile nature of our country, and I want to participate. My choice to join the military was to see first hand. While most sit on a fence, or the right or left. For all their spouting its condensed to a whimper. Most don't hear them over the roar of pop culture.

Your thesis is based on ideology. Its honorable but an unrealized fantasy. I only wish the world was the way you describe, but I know the truth. If you honestly believe that America is the only one's in the world with secret police, and hidden agenda your naive. As in "Lacking worldly experience and understanding".

I believe you to be an intelligent man. If you seek the unbiased reality you will arrive to an understanding of the world you live in.
An understanding of the paradox.

 

[LionelHutz]

You don't know what you're talking about.

The Iraqis aren't stupid. They know they live in a brutal, barbaric dictatorship that lies to them constantly and has absolutely no regard for human rights or freedom. They will be hailing us as liberators when our tanks roll in and we set up a democratic gov't.

They don't hate us. And they hate Saddam more than we do.

 

[dballer]

I am laughing pretty hard at all of this..

like all of us have the facts to make good researched factual decisions.

David Copperfield can make a elephant disappear on TV... David Blane can float.. and you belive the lies CNN and CBS feed you.

Can anyone here fathom the idea that all of us have biased information coming to our hands. We do not get the news.. we get a watered down version biased to make our opinions and votes to the direction that the TV/media want them to go.

I mean.. how many of us have been to Iraq? All we know is that Dan Rather tells us they are all crazy.. they are Arabs.. so they all must be evil.

what a fucking joke.

I am sorry if I offended any of you that know the truth about The New World Order.

 

[minion]

I am laughing pretty hard at all of this..

like all of us have the facts to make good researched factual decisions.

David Copperfield can make a elephant disappear on TV... David Blane can float.. and you belive the lies CNN and CBS feed you.

Can anyone here fathom the idea that all of us have biased information coming to our hands. We do not get the news.. we get a watered down version biased to make our opinions and votes to the direction that the TV/media want them to go.

I mean.. how many of us have been to Iraq? All we know is that Dan Rather tells us they are all crazy.. they are Arabs.. so they all must be evil.

what a fucking joke.

I am sorry if I offended any of you that know the truth about The New World Order.

I know ALOT of people that have been to Iraq. Being a military member I could be going to Iraq myself. I don't get my info from CNN, BBC, FOXnews, or the Arab equivilant. I don't need to.

What I find humorous is the constipated attitude some of you display. Its as if you think you could wish this mess away.

 

[dballer]

I know ALOT of people that have been to Iraq. Being a military member I could be going to Iraq myself. I don't get my info from CNN, BBC, FOXnews, or the Arab equivilant. I don't need to.

What I find humorous is the constipated attitude some of you display. Its as if you think you could wish this mess away.

Wish this mess away? Bowing to the enemy will not help either.

What army or military did you serve with? Do you refer to Japan as your country? Do you live in the US? Were you born in the US?

(Off the subject.. but I read a post where you called Japan "Your" country.. but also stated that you were born in the US... does this mean that I can call Germany my home country?)

 

[minion]

Wish this mess away? Bowing to the enemy will not help either.

Tell me something i don't know.

What army or military did you serve with? Do you refer to Japan as your country? Do you live in the US? Were you born in the US?

I'm elisted in the U.S. Navy and have been since Dec. 96'. Presently serving my third tour over seas, second tour of Japan. I was born in San Diego California USA.

(Off the subject.. but I read a post where you called Japan "Your" country.. but also stated that you were born in the US... does this mean that I can call Germany my home country?)

NEVER have I refered to Japan as MY country. You sir are mistaken.

 

[aurelius]

I'm sure the USA tested the limits of these rules of diplomacy at times, but there was never any direct aggression that wasn't warranted.

South Vietnam

Grenada

Panama

Libia

Please explain the direct threat to the US. (lives)

 

[buddy28]

I'm sure the USA tested the limits of these rules of diplomacy at times, but there was never any direct aggression that wasn't warranted.

To argue that, we'd have to arrive at a mutually acceptable operational definition of 'direct', 'aggression', and 'warranted'. But the real issue is, has the United States Government consciously authorized the use of *excessive* force, either through direct or indirect means, when long term US National Security objectives were not significantly compromised?

I sincerely believe the answer to that question is yes.

I have stacks of books on American injustice and conspiracy theory. I do my own investigation of my country. (From my library for reference try: Behold a pale white horse, New World order, Children of the Matrix, One nation under Israel, The cosmic conspiracy, I'm not a number, Guns germs and steel, ect just to name a few) I don't blindly accept them as fact I've cross referenced them and made my own judgment. I've come to the conclusion that America is an ongoing project. It didn't turn me into an anti-American if anything it showed me the fragile nature of our country, and I want to participate. My choice to join the military was to see first hand. While most sit on a fence, or the right or left. For all their spouting its condensed to a whimper. Most don't hear them over the roar of pop culture.

I respect that.

Your thesis is based on ideology. Its honorable but an unrealized fantasy. I only wish the world was the way you describe, but I know the truth. If you honestly believe that America is the only one's in the world with secret police, and hidden agenda your naive. As in "Lacking worldly experience and understanding".

I believe you to be an intelligent man. If you seek the unbiased reality you will arrive to an understanding of the world you live in.
An understanding of the paradox.

I know my argument appears to be somewhat idealistic and impractical. However, I am neither naive or unbiased, relatively speaking. I recognize and fully acknowledge every single country on the face of this earth has, and would given the opportunity, exploit domestic nationals and foreign civilians to further State long term national security objectives. The human condition.

However, there has to be some understanding the actions we take now, either justified or not, to ensure our states future viability, will have significant implications for our nation down the road.

And this is where I digress from you. We both admittedly share a common belief of humanities future fate. *That* is the result of the adversarial foreign policy the majority of nations have chosen to adopt and implement. Especially the 'developed nations' (Britain, US, France, Germany, Russia). It is only now, in the 21st century, in which our expanded knowledge of the physical and biological sciences have given us the ability to make war of apocalyptic proportions.

Which is why I advocate the position I do. We either turn things back now, or we face near total self annihilation.

The survivors are going to look back on this charred mess we've created and ask themselves, 'was it worth it?' And then we'll do it all over again because we never learned how to respect each other, or love one another.

Its not hard. Its just a choice that has to made and honored.


Do you like Star Wars?


"...For my ally is the Force

, and a powerful ally it is.

Life creates it, makes it grow.

Its energy surrounds us

and binds us. Luminous

beings are we, not this

crude matter. You must feel

the Force around you;

between you, me, the tree,

the rock, everywhere. Yes,

even between the land and

the ship.

Yoda. (Episode V)




Dream the biggest dream. And let the chips fall where they may.


That is how I (try to) lead my life.

 

[buddy28]

for the full effect......

http://www.tsr.org/StarWars/multimedia/wavs/allyforc.wav

 

[minion]

South Vietnam

Grenada

Panama

Libia

Please explain the direct threat to the US. (lives)

I sure can and so could you if you weren't out on your witch hunt.

I'm going to bed now but I'll get back in the morning. Before I go off the top of my head Vietnam was to discourage communism. Also known as "violent passification". Certain parties (the south) wanted help in their civil conflict. The French pulled out and our intervention was solicited. VC tactics were extreme even for war time. Our position was suppossed to be one of assistance. Going in we knew it wasn't our war.

That's why I'm surprised at the ignorance of those that say we lost the war in Vietnam. It wasn't ours to loose in the first place since our role was to be one of assistance. The Vietnam War was for the South Vietnamese to win and not the Americans.


The plaintive issue I have with that piece of history is we should have not stayed directly involved as long as we did.

Its actually more complex than this, but I'm off to bed.

 

[knight69]

maybe they are upset because they dont live in texas w/ all the good rebels and supreme people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[aurelius]

I sure can and so could you if you weren't out on your witch hunt.

What on earth are you talking about?

Again, direct threat to US lives. Where is it? (every intervention I mentioned)

 

[minion]

What on earth are you talking about?

Again, direct threat to US lives. Where is it? (every intervention I mentioned)

Communism was a huge issue. Ask any Cuban immigrant they'll tell you the same.
Last night I had planed on going down the list and spoon feeding the facts. Today I have a change of heart. At my leisure I will address each of those as individual threads. In the mean time you could search for the truth youeself. Try it. Its addictive.

 

[aurelius]

Communism was a huge issue. Ask any Cuban immigrant they'll tell you the same.
Last night I had planed on going down the list and spoon feeding the facts. Today I have a change of heart. At my leisure I will address each of those as individual threads. In the mean time you could search for the truth youeself. Try it. Its addictive.

You still haven´t addressed the qeustion. How did "communism" in south vietnam, grenada, panama and libia directly threaten american lives.

Addictive? I know.

 

[minion]

You still haven´t addressed the qeustion. How did "communism" in south vietnam, grenada, panama and libia directly threaten american lives.

Addictive? I know.

LOL, this is too easy, your joking right?
I'll put a nipple on these topics latter. Here is a "bone" and a clue enjoy.

Ever heard of the Cuba missle crisis?

 

[aurelius]

LOL, this is too easy, your joking right?
I'll put a nipple on these topics latter. Here is a "bone" and a clue enjoy.

Ever heard of the Cuba missle crisis?

This may be a fool´s errand on my part but I am going to try this one last time. Tell me how "communism" in south vietnam, grenada, panama and libia threatened directly american lives.

 

[minion]

This may be a fool´s errand on my part but I am going to try this one last time. Tell me how "communism" in south vietnam, grenada, panama and libia threatened directly american lives.

This used to be American policy before Pearl Harbor.

Indirectly / directly there are one and the same given time.

You list four different conflicts. I'm not here to right essay's. Each have filled novels. I'm familiar with them all.

"Tell you how"? You say? Do your own research. What "points" inparticular are you curious about? You need to be more specific.

BTW one of my best friends "Oster" is from Grenada.

 

[aurelius]

This used to be American policy before Pearl Harbor.

Indirectly / directly there are one and the same given time.

You list four different conflicts. I'm not here to right essay's. Each have filled novels. I'm familiar with them all.

"Tell you how"? You say? Do your own research. What "points" inparticular are you curious about? You need to be more specific.

BTW one of my best friends "Oster" is from Grenada.

i give up.

take care.

 

[minion]

i give up.

take care.

Damn why do I have to do every thing?

Here you big Sissy.

Unless you view everything and cross reference it your only cheating yourself. Take your time.

Grenada
http://www.globalsecurity.org/cgi-b...r=default&order=r&query=Grenada&submit=Submit

Lebanon
http://www.globalsecurity.org/cgi-b...r=default&order=r&query=Lebanon&submit=Submit

Vietnam
http://www.globalsecurity.org/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/webinator/search/?pr=default&order=r&query=Vietnam

Panama
http://www.globalsecurity.org/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/webinator/search/?pr=default&order=r&query=Panama

Libya
http://www.globalsecurity.org/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/webinator/search/?pr=default&order=r&query=Libya

 

[aurelius]

Read the stuff on Grenada. Looks like we had several hundred men with small arms and 6 anti aircraft guns threatening America. Oh, I forgot they were "marxist."(whatever that means) There was the usual rhetoric about "restoring democracy" (you heard that about Kuwait) but Grenada never was one.(like Kuwait)

I knew about the med students but what was the real threat? Were they told to leave or could they leave? Were any other avenues tried before a full military invasion?

If I were a Republican at that time I very well may have done the same thing. It worked out quite well.

 

[alien amp pharm]

This is the first day back after 4 days.....

As some of you might have heard, they (United States) will be coming out within the next few days the reason(s) why we are going to attack Iraq soon.

 

[KHMER ROGUE]

I smell WW3