no wonder iraqis hate us

[buddy28]

There is some truth to this, marginal at best.

Please.

My perspective on the matter is, we may be in too deep. Who is right or wrong is inapplicable at this stage for all practicle purposes.

I agree. I think we are in too deep. But its important to place blame accordingly instead of perpetuating a biased, distorted account of world events that coincides with an individuals nationalistic ideology.

The truth is important. It changes people. As it stands right now, theres a whole lot of nationalistic propoganda being pushed in the States which is just taking us all closer to the brink.

It starts with the individual. A sincere empathetic respect for foreign peoples is going to save us. Love. How ironic, eh?

But its true. You beleive in God Minion?

 

[manny78]

Weak Logic? How is this weak logic amigo? You don't have respect for the US? Yeah it's not like we hold this world together or anything. China? Give me a break. Yeah, might be the largest active army. But how effective are 10 people on mountain bikes? Simply not a challenge. People really seem to forget, we ARE the most advanced and the MOST powerful military force on this planet. We will always come out on top. No offense to any other countries out there; this is just my great patriotic non logic talk.

Most advanced army in te world, best secret service and guess what: a bunch of dirty camels were able to kill more Americans than Saddam ever did. Not even Hitler has been able to strike the US territory.

So following your logic you shouldnt attack China cause they're a weak army but rather Iraq ? Are you trying to say Iraq is a greater threat ? Come on. Do a search.

China has at least 3 different kinds of intercontinental ballistic missile. One of them with a range of over 7000 miles. Enough to reach the US coast.

The core of the Chinese aviation is the Su-27 which is equal to the F-16 and even superior on many aspects. Also the improved Su-30 is now in service. They have modern battle tanks and many other things. And just to let you know: they dont care about caualties unlike your country. No Somalia syndrom so far......

 

[dballer]

The stated reason for the killing of over three thousand civilians is ostensibly because we have troops in Saudi Arabia, and because we support Israel. Well, I'm sorry, neither of those constitute a gross injustice to me. (Hell, I'm glad we support Israel, and I think we should attack Saudi Arabia!) Even if they did, the terrorists, if they are sane at all, should have know that this sort of activity could never help them achieve their goals, which makes the attack an act of pure spite.

But that doesn't even matter, IMO. The deed is DONE. All we can do now is hit them back... and the more violent our counter-attack, the better!

Damn!!

That was a well thought out responce. This sentance below pretty much sums up the strength of your argument. So profound.. you should go into contemplative logic with this.

"Even if they did, the terrorists, if they are sane at all, should have know that this sort of activity could never help them achieve their goals, which makes the attack an act of pure spite."

 

[buddy28]

In the end, America is no more evil than most of the countries on earth.

I agree. If America wasnt bent on global political and economic hegemony, another country wouldve stepped up and dominated. Probably using similar tactics employed by the US Government.

However, the US Government is leading us on a path to a global conflict, which is becoming increasingly unavertable as time continues. And that single fact is incredibly important. We need to understand the divisive values, morals, and norms we've adopted which have led us to this point - if we get a second chance. We need to learn from our mistakes if we're to avoid repeating history. Humanity hasn't learned how to *respect* each other. And sadly, the US Government, indirectly supported by its populace, is the major culpable party responsible for handing out alot of the disrespect thats been going round. Does nothing for ones karma....

Personally, I dont believe humanity is fatally condemned to succumbing to its own spiritual inadequacies. There is hope. But in order for me to sell the hope, the mistakes need to be pointed out so they can be understood and remedied. I acknowledge your point about humanity's seemingly inherent character flaws, but I don't want to give up hope yet ( not saying you do, just exp laing to u why Im harping on the issue).

In the end, Saddam is responsible for this. he chooses not to do what it takes to remove the sanctions, and he chooses to squander/misuse humanitarian aid. In northern Iraq, where distribution of food & medicine is controlled by the U.N., infant mortality has gone down to pre-gulf war levels. several websites will confirm this fact.

Good point. I agree 100%. However, the Iraqi populace represents a powerless change agent to their nations leadership. And that cant be stressed enough. What can the Iraqis do to overthrow Saddam? History has taught them any such rebellion will be met with brutal Government suppression probably employing the use of chemical and biological weapons.

Saddam has made terrible choices. But why are we entrusting the fate of the Iraqi populace to a single man weve known for sometime is a fucking loon?

GW Senior *choose* not to depose Saddam from power after the Gulf War. Clinton and his asshole Secretary of State, Albright, *choose* to endorse crippling economic sanctions against Iraq in favor of taking Saddam out.

Y?

Largely because taking Saddam out wouldve incurred significant US and allied military causalities. Probably in the range of 10,000 - 50,000 troops. So the US Government let Saddam have his way, knowing all the while, any possible Iraqi civilian attempt to install a representative ruling national party wouldve been quelled with chemical and biological weapons the US Government gave him. Doesnt give too much hope to the indigenous Iraqi population, does it?

To me, there was a glaring moral imperative incumbent on the United States Government to take out Saddam after the realization post Gulf War economic sanctions levied against Iraq would likely result in significant loss of innocent Iraqi life.

But this avenue was not chosen. Because we were too fucking brave.


[insert sardonic tone here]

Sweeeeett lannnnd of liberrrrrt-y.......*sniffle* *sniffle*

 

[Spiral Traveller]

....because taking Saddam out wouldve incurred significant US and allied military causalities. Probably in the range of 10,000 - 50,000 troops. ...

We will not lose thousands of lives. Saddam's troops surrendered by the hundreds of thousands last time -- and as their army has only gotten worse, why wouldnt they this time? Even if they fought to the last man -- and they won't -- his soldiers and command are not exactly crack troops as we found all throughout the gulf war. Their Republican Guard "special forces" aren't that special. They have no Air Force and no Navy. What is the friggin problem here? So what if other arab nations joined in, ALL OF THEM COMBINED CAN'T EVEN DEFEAT ISRAEL! I think some of you need to watch the History channel a little more often and realize that a lot has changed in the American military since WORLD WAR 2! Has the media brainwashed everybody into believing that those videos of Saddam's troops marching along (very flambuoyantly, I might add) mean that the Iraqi military is an imposing and mighty force? Wake up people, and have some faith in your tax dollars!


By the way, word is that this photo was taken at a recent military parade in Iraq. All I can say is HELL ON WHEELS! Beware the famous Iraqi wheeled infantry!

 

[buddy28]

We will not lose thousands of lives.

My comment was in reference to the US Government decision not to take out Saddam *after* US armed forces removed the Iraqi military presence from Kuwait during the Gulf War.

Just adds more credence to my argument. But I highly doubt any Iraqi urban conflict would result in insignificant US causalities. One of the defining features of ground war is the higher probability of troop causality rates. No smart bombs locking targets in at 100nm range. Man to man. Clearing houses out one by one. Using comparable weapons at similar ranges, as the enemy.

 

[gymnpoppa]

Iraq did nothing to us???? How many times have they said that as soon as they acquire nukes (weapons of mass destruction) that they won't hesitate to use them on America? Hell, Sadam killed his own people. And the bombing was appropriate. -You just can't have some maniac like Sadam taking over everything (oil, countries, etc.). Somebody's gotta keep the peace and some sanity in the world. - even if it means 'some' people dying.

Post a link to prove this. And as was noted, we supplied the bioweapons to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war. Obviously post of the people who post here have not served in the military in the M East, nor have they even ventured out of the country unless it was on vacation.

There is a clear pattern of US involvement in the creation of most of the "evil" characters today. We funded, trained, and assisted bin Laden years ago, we sold anthrax, bioweapons, and other weapons to Iraq, when Bush (41) was president. Yet NONE of this administration has had the Balls to come forward and admit that our stupid, meddling has come with a price. As a matter of a fact, they continually bombard the public with Saddam is evil crap, yet fail to own up to dumbass, murderous, covert operations which started years ago, before most of you were even born.

And because none of you even know, or acknowledge this, you continously blame whoever the media puts forth as the "guilty"
party to the problem.

Why don't you do some reading, or research, or travel, and get a much better perspective on what's really going on, than the national media.

For those who do post objective sources, or opinions, this does not pertain to you, I don't need to detail names..............

Engage in some debate with older vets who might have served during those years, the Reagan years, Bush years, and Carter years. If you can't find anyone, do some research.

This and every adminstration since Vietnam is scared to actually put troops on the ground in heavy combat scenarios because of political reasons.

Extract, you correctly note that we have the best (technological) military, then why didn't we use our own people in Afghanistan? Did you take the time to ask that question?

I personally think that the radical fundamentalists would kick our ass on a level playing field. Which is what the silent opinion is in Washington as well.

and before you or anyone else ignorantly questions my patriotism, I put in my time in the military/M East.

 

[Prometheus]

First off, you're going to sit there and say that he isn't involved in ANY terrorist activity? You're a fucking tool. You want to bring up the past bro? You're going to say we didn't have to right to do what we did after Pearl Harbor? Fuck you and the rest that agree with you. I guess that's the difference between people like us. If this country was run by people like you there WOULDN'T even be a United States. Also I need to ask you, are you comparing Americans to Hilter and to the Japanese? I mean that's what it seems like to me. You're saying that the Palestenians had every right to be celebrating in the street when they killed thousands of Americans. I'm not the type of man that is going to sit in the middle of the fence. I'm for America and that is that. Anyone that doesn't like us IS against us. Plain and simple.

a "fucking tool"? well, can't say I expected any more from you, given the juvenile logic of your other posts and your apparent stupidity.

given your limited capacity, and for final clarification, I'll try one more time: RATIONALIZATION IS NOT JUSTIFICATION - to understand WHY someone does something is *NOT* the same as saying its CORRECT.

I compared Americans with Hitler? Another conclusion only a true imbecile could have reached from what I wrote. I compared PEOPLE with PEOPLE. All people celebrate the defeat of their enemies. These people regard America as the enemy. That's not good or preferable, but it is the situation.

you "argue" that bombing Iraqis is justified based on the US news media having played footage of Palestinians celebrating in the street. Ignoring that they are separate countries and that there is some evidence that the celebration occurred long before 9/11, you lump all muslims together and declare without thinking: "muslims are not with us, therefore they are against us" and therefore ostensibly deserve to be blown to bits and their country overthrown, whether or not they were involved in the attacks and whether or not they pose a viable threat. [Ironically, this group characterization of Muslims is from one who has thrown wailing hissyfits about discrimination and prejudice, when he himself is the subject.]

But you are a "good American," doing your best to validate world disdain, exercising what your feeble mind regards as "patriotism" by blindly adhering to the administration's propaganda, without thinking, without an evaluation of past governmental lies and deceit, without questioning all the pieces that just don't fit, without wondering about who REALLY stands to gain from this, what the real profit motives are. believe what you want. I won't comment further here.

 

[manny78]

Man to man. Clearing houses out one by one. Using comparable weapons at similar ranges, as the enemy.

reminds me the movie Black Hawk Down.....

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

Most advanced army in te world, best secret service and guess what: a bunch of dirty camels were able to kill more Americans than Saddam ever did. Not even Hitler has been able to strike the US territory.

So following your logic you shouldnt attack China cause they're a weak army but rather Iraq ? Are you trying to say Iraq is a greater threat ? Come on. Do a search.

China has at least 3 different kinds of intercontinental ballistic missile. One of them with a range of over 7000 miles. Enough to reach the US coast.

The core of the Chinese aviation is the Su-27 which is equal to the F-16 and even superior on many aspects. Also the improved Su-30 is now in service. They have modern battle tanks and many other things. And just to let you know: they dont care about caualties unlike your country. No Somalia syndrom so far......

ok