Need2 advanced cycle with changes - Opinons

[Drewb]

Cycle plan: - I am looking for opinons and suggestions. Need2 was kind enough to give some pointers in setting this up.

1-6, 2 caps beast daily
1-6, 2 caps dieselbolan daily
1-6, 2 caps tren daily
1-6, 2 caps Forgeliver support daily
1-6,Sustain alpha 3 days on 2 days off
6-10 Forge PCT
6-10 Bridge product -Dermacrine
11-14 Deiselbolan 1 cap 3 times daily
11-14 katanadrol 1 cap 3 times daily
11-14 forged liver support 2 capsdaily
11-14Sustain alpha 3 days on 2 days off
15-20 Forged PCT
15-20 Nova 10mg

I would be starting this at the begining of next month.

Should I be ordering any serums or will having the nolva on hand be enough?

Current specs:
6' 2"
225lb
10-15% bf (depending on if I use the 3 or4 pinch method) - lean enough to not have any "mufffen top" type side belly fat but not lean enough to clearly see any abs

End goals:
240lb-250lb
8-10% bf

Diet:
1-6anabolic diet with 32,000-35,000 cals a week
7-10 anabolic diet with 32,000-35,000 cals a week
11-14 anabolic diet with 21,000 cals a week
15-20 normal low cal healthy diet

Other supporting supps:

Weeks 1-14
1. Creatine Ethyl ester Pre worout
2. Joint pills - 2 daily
3. Mens multiple vit - 2 daily
4. Fish oil pills - 6 daily
5. Fenugreek - 1 daily
6. Saw palmetto - 1 daily
7. Red yeast 1- daily
8. whey isolate - 1 scoop post workout
9. bcaa tabs - 4 daily

Diet:
diet consists of 30 carbs and 60% fat / 40% protine (lots of eggs amd steak) on weekdays and clean carb loading on the weekends.

Blood work:
Pre cycle, middle cycle and post cycle and/ or anytime if I get bad sides

I have most of the products already I would just need to buy the sustain.

Thanks,
Drew

 

[burnthiscorpse]

if your taking the saw palmetto for prostate I would up it to 3 times a day. I started pissing once or twice during the night a couple weeks into this cycle. I assumed it was slight enlargement. I had NO other signs or symptoms though. I upped my saw palmetto to 3x ED from 1 and noticed a huge difference after about a month. Maybe its coincidence but somethings different.

The only other thing I would say to do even though I have never used any of the "drugs" your going to use....is I would run the liver support right through PCT.

You should definatley do before/during/after pics though for sure.

 

[Drewb]

if your taking the saw palmetto for prostate I would up it to 3 times a day. I started pissing once or twice during the night a couple weeks into this cycle. I assumed it was slight enlargement. I had NO other signs or symptoms though. I upped my saw palmetto to 3x ED from 1 and noticed a huge difference after about a month. Maybe its coincidence but somethings different.

The only other thing I would say to do even though I have never used any of the "drugs" your going to use....is I would run the liver support right through PCT.

You should definatley do before/during/after pics though for sure.

1. About the Saw: your right I checked the dousing and it says 2 a day so I'd better run at least that. Don't know about you but I drink 1.5-2 gal of water when I'm taking something and I tend to pee all the time (like twice an hr) :lol:

2. Not sure about the liver support with pct, I'll see what the blood work says, thanks thou

 

[Drewb]

I'll do the before/middle and after pics...

Should I order up some HGC or is my pct and having the nolva enough?

 

[sonicwaste]

I'd consider revising your diet plan and overall strategy.

Trying to go from 225 @15% to 240 @10% is a pretty tall order.

While the CKD diet is great for fat loss, it's not great for LBM gain. You won't gain much LBM on a CKD if any at all. TKD is much better overall for LBM gain, but still not the best in that area.

If I were you, I'd start out with a good carb rotation for 8 weeks... Focus on gaining 7-10lbs LBM while dropping a couple of points LBM...Then re-asses from there.

CKD's are good for a few weeks... TKD's can be sustained a bit longer... Always good to switch between roating carbs, CKD, and TKD.

 

[Drewb]

Thanks

 

[Drewb]

Ok so what if I revise the diet to a higher clean carb + lots of protine + low fat + higher Cal (much easier to run higher cal when I can eat Carbs) for 1-10 and then run some clen/t3 and low carb for 11-14 and cut out/delete the use of katanadrol

Thoughts??

 

[sonicwaste]

Okay, here are some thoughts. I by no means wanted to fully detract you from implementing CKD or TKD diets. I just believe they are best used in bursts... and here is why...

The CKD works especially well for those in the mid to high teens body fat percentage and even in to the 20% range. Ketogenic diet is based on the principle that in the absence or carbo intake, your body will efficiently use fat for energy/fuel. This is great when you have larger amounts of fat to be used as fuel. Your body can remain working quite efficiently and the properly implemented carb up can replenish glycogen to a point where training intensity can be maintained at some decent level.

The lower your body fat gets, the less fat you have to be efficiently used as energy. So on course as you decrease your body fat you have less effective fuel. If that makes sense. And as you know when approaching the single digits body fat your body becomes less and less happy relinquishing the fat... So you have less fat to use for fuel and your body doesn't want to use it. This eventually leads to more frequent re-feeds, bigger re-feeds, and longer re-feeds. When you have to consistently do more frequent re-feeds, bigger and longer it can become counter productive to the goal at hand. If you don't go more frequent, bigger, and longer your training capacity and energy level will tank.

Sometimes you don't realize it fast enough. Sometimes it hits you once... And when you reach a severe level of depletion, there is only one way out. Long, massive re-feed. For me the depletion crept up on me. I didn't realize it, and all of a sudden it hit me. No single day re-feed or 2 day re-feed could pull me out of it. Luckily at that point I was headed on vacation and needed a break. I went on a pretty massive re-feed over about 2 week time period. I shot up 11 lbs. in that 2 week span, all glycogen and water. No change in body fat, no change in LBM. I looked massively different from beginning to end. By the end of my 2 week vacation my muscle density had recovered and it was not a small margin. Took me about another 2 weeks to get my lifts back to normal.

All in all, it worked out and I got back to normal... But I wasted a lot of time because I didn't see it coming. I lost pretty much 4 weeks of progress from it. I stayed around 10.5% body fat for a month without moving. Frustrating, but lesson learned.

So that's where I come to the TKD. TKD and it's analogues pretty much prevent the body from being put in a hole like on a CKD. It's especially effective as your body reaches towards and into the single digits body fat. I think your body can snap back in to ketosis much faster when your body fat is low.

TKD has many different implentations whether it be just pre-workout carbs, just post-workout carbs, pre and post carbs, or pre, intra, and post. All combinations are effective. I am especially fond of pre, intra, post right now. I intake about 180g high GI carbs split between pre-intra-post. And it works great. I can sustain great intensity workouts followed by HIIT cardio without zonking out. And the ability to sustain energy after the workouts are nice too. Since moving to TKD my strength has continued to increase which is a good sign. I don't look or feel depleted either.

So all in all. Whatever route or multiple routes you choose. Don't continue on one path for too long. Especially as you approach really low body fat, your body will adapt and faster and faster rates. That's why I think a good implementation is to rotate between carb cycling, ckd, and tkd. And even some other things. Just make sure to watch your progression. Don't necessarily assume that when you stagnate that you must decrease calories and increase cardio. Sometimes you do. But never do both at the same time. Sometimes it's just switching the diet. Sometimes it's keeping calories even and upping the cardio slightly. Sometimes it's lowering the cardio and lowering the cals. Sometimes it's keeping cardio the same and lowering calories. But just don't make too many changes at the same time or you'll never know what your body is really responding too. Small changes can produce big results. Big changes can sometimes throw you in the hole.

Just learn your body and keep it from adapting. Make sure you keep an eye on things. When you stagnate for a week, time to change something. It's up to you to figure out what that change is.

Let me look over your plan again and come up with some more ideas on your approach supplementation wise.

 

[Drewb]

--/\-- great post, thanks bro for taking the time to type that out... I'll be following your advice to switch to the TKD once my BF gets down closer to that single digit level (close to 10% or less). I'm currently 13-15% so if I read your advice correct I should be fine on pure CKD until I drop down to 10% or less (or there abouts).

Once I get down to 10% I will try switching to the TKD. Let me repeat to make sure I understand: it's like a CKD only without carb load days (or do they stay?), but with the TKD I would "load" 180-200 carbs (or there abouts) split up between Pre-during and post workout? So I would continue with the high fat, high protine and only cut out the carb load weekends and have Pre-during-post carbs loads every workout day? Is this correct?

 

[Drewb]

Anymore thoughts/tips from anyone?

 

[ConanX]

Maybe there is something wrong with my diet...I'm not really sure, but I found I was able to tighten up while gaining or mantaining muscle mass. Basically I have 30 grams of carbs, 50-60 grams of protein, very low fat 6x a day. Every day was the same with no cheat meals.

I found I would tighten up, have the energy for sick workouts, and I wouldn't totally starve. If I up the carbs a bit, I gain size very quickly but in a few days I'll see bf creep up too. If I keep the carbs at 180grams every day, I seem to very slowly lose bodyfat and lean up.

Is this method just too simple or outdated?

 

[Drewb]

Not sure but why I react the same why to carbs, I'll put on 30lb in a month with a good/decent PH cycle if I eat lots of carbs but 1/2 of it will be hard to loose fat...

50-60 grams of protine is really low (I can't be reading that right?).. I eat 300-400 grams a day, most days weekdays (weekend I carb load to build muscle for about 36 hrs or until my body fills out with the carbs) Ill eat 8-10 eggs and about 36-46 oz of serloin steak in about 6-8 meals. Funny thing is I've been on this CKD diet for 14 weeks and I always have energy, the weekdays after carb load I get great pumps and great energy. From talking to diff people everyones body has diff needs to grow and/or loose fat, although I've always stuck to the high protein...

I'm gonna have to try the TKD diet though if I start crashing or getting low energy, as it is my bf loosses has really slowed down so I'm dibating a clen/t3 30 day cyc with my last 11-14 weeks to get to my target 8-10% bf, I want to see abs! Lol

 

[sonicwaste]

Maybe there is something wrong with my diet...I'm not really sure, but I found I was able to tighten up while gaining or mantaining muscle mass. Basically I have 30 grams of carbs, 50-60 grams of protein, very low fat 6x a day. Every day was the same with no cheat meals.

I found I would tighten up, have the energy for sick workouts, and I wouldn't totally starve. If I up the carbs a bit, I gain size very quickly but in a few days I'll see bf creep up too. If I keep the carbs at 180grams every day, I seem to very slowly lose bodyfat and lean up.

Is this method just too simple or outdated?

Hold on, you are saying you eat 50-60g protein, 30g carbs, and low fat? How many grams?

You are only getting 360 calories from protein and carbs?

There must be some kind of mistake in your post or you are just messing with us.

Please do update, because those specs are in the realm of lunacy, no offense. If that's what you are really eating, then we can surely help you.

As far as 180g carbs go... It's relative to when you eat them, what type, and your energy expenditure.

 

[Drewb]

I think he must mean per meal??

 

[sonicwaste]

I think he must mean per meal??

Oh you are probably right. I'm losing it today for sure. Makes more sense.

 

[Drewb]

With the TKD diet when do you consume the carbs? Hr before you workout or farther out?

 

[Drewb]

Started the stack today with a switch to the TKD diet, I also picked up some melatonin to help me sleep and added cranberry extract to my supporting sups.

Feel/am a little flushed right now. I normally lift around 6pm (2hrs from now) so I just took my 2nd dose for the day. Already ate about 30oz of meat today and will down 70carbs or so about am 1hr before I head out to the gym.

Did my blood work last week: bp was 104/58, good/normal kidney/liver/thyroid/hormone function. I plan on doing another mid round of tests in 4-5 weeks.

I'll see if I can't get a before pic...

 

[Drewb]

Workout was great last night. I’m sure it was a combo of the diet change, the fact that I took a week off the gym and the need2 supplements. It was my 2nd day taking them and my lifts (back day my fav day) were stronger (too early for much more then a mental boost and maybe the blood pressure helped?), I was sweating a LOT and had to cutoff my gym time after 1 hr otherwise I would have been there longer and over trained (was not feeling fatigued).


Sides today:

Little tired/lethargic but I’m drinking lots of water and a cup of coffee helped.

I slept fine/normal

I am not anymore aggressive then normal (am a type ‘A’ guy so I’m normally aggressive).

Headaches – I woke up with a bad headache and still have a bit of one but it seems to have mostly gone away (I’ve not taken anything for it).

Looking forward to working out (as always)...

 

[needtogetaas]

TKD diet,could be the head hurting from this bro...

 

[Drewb]

No I never get headachs from low carb diets

 

[Drewb]

Worked out my arms tonight. Too early for size gains but my energy was threw the roof, had to stop myself after an 1hr and 20min to keep from over training...

 

[Drewb]

Here are 2 before pics from Yesterday (start of cyc):

I figure I'm 15% bf right now, 6' 2" and 225lb in the early morning...

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/Stage2BlackSRT4/photo-173.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/Stage2BlackSRT4/photo-174.jpg

 

[Drewb]

Did my legs yesterday (3rd day in) managed to add about 7% to my incline press and 28% to my hack squats. Overall leg lifts were up and my feeling was good/strong for the full 1hr and 20 min workout.

No sides right now other then sweat and my “drive” is still strong, I think the 3on/2off Sustain Alpha might be helping with that side of things.

I’m not really feeling sour and was debating working out 6 days this week instead of the normal 5. I normally take off the weekend to recover (joints/muscles) to avoid damage. Also my shoulder has been feeling pretty strong this week. I have to avoid any and all heavy chest workouts or bench press and stick to cables and lighter barbells for chest (and be very controlled/careful with shoulder workouts) because my right shoulder joint got damaged (un repairable) a few years ago.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

Great post sonic!

 

[Drewb]

Update: almost 2 weeks in.

1. Lifts are all up a huge amt, in fact I might have overtrained and strained a problem back muscle this week so I'm gonna take it easy until Monday...
2. I'm up a net about 5-6lb (dry in the morning)...

 

[Drewb]

Great Tri workout on Wen, probably up there with my best... Tonight was legs / shoulders. Everything was up over last week, added about 90lb no problem to my incline leg press for the last 2 sets and about 5lb per arm with the over the head barbell press (up to 75lb barbell per x arm 4 sets x 8-10reps which is a lot for me with my bad shoulder joint, it's a little sore now thou)...

 

[Drewb]

Well I'm back on a clean normal diet (no tkd or ckd). I'm up to 232 today (about 8lb), middle of third week with 2 more or so left