need training advice

[lavi]

longtime memeber but havent posted in a while here.

my background:
5'6"
18yo
145lbs
training 1-1.5yrs
need to add 20-30lbs of muscle at least, ultime goal is powerlifting

195 bench
215 squat
365 deadlift

I plan to do a fullbody split 3x a week

My questions:

(1)

i was thing of either doing 1 day 3-5reps, 1 day 10-12 reps and alternating (with the same exercises) - so itd be:
monday: flat bench 3x3-5
wed: flat bench 3x10-12
fri: flat bench 3x10-12
etc.

or I could do something like 1 week 10-12reps, 1 weeks 6-8, 1 week 3-5 and repeat

would one be more effective than the other?


(2)

im also not sure of how much volume to do. i will be going to failure much of the time unlike hst. I was thinking ~20 sets a day?

I was looking at something like:
3 sets flat bench
3 sets mil press
3 sets row
2 bb curls
2 skullcrushers
3 sets safety bar box squat
3 sets deadlift
2 sets cable crunches
=21 sets


which leads to (3)

I'm having trouble addressing all my weaknesses:

my chest has always been a weakness and only doing 3 sets of flatbench for it doesnt really help it catch up

have greatly neglected lateral delts

havent directly trained bis in months

my tris are important to me since my ultimate goal is powerlifting

the routine I showed leaves my chest lacking. if I cut anything out, one of these will be lacking. any advice?



Any other general advice on a routine is mroe than welcome

no im not obsessive about this... kind of

Thanks!!!

[btw great to see WalkingBeast is still out and about here - im gunna go check otu your log now- i know, i know, my routine isnt high enough volume for you ]

 

[Royster]

squat, pull, press, dont make things complicated.

you are weak, it takes nothing but a simple program to get strong.

 

[lavi]

thanks royster, fair enough.

are you reccommending I skip isolation stuff such as curls and skullcrushers altogether and focus on the big stuff?

 

[Royster]

yes.

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manrodt4.htm

follow the Bill Starr power program for 3 months. Eat big, sleep big and the "heavy" day take it like you are going to battle. Rest one week, repeat again. Once you have built your lifts to a reasonable level, switch to westside or modify this program.

read the other articles in the archives, you obviously know nothing about strength training.

Leave the isolation stuff for the bodybuilders and the muppets.

remember, get strong, and the rest will follow.

 

[Madcow2]

royster has good advice. Most of the workouts posted on these boards wouldn't produce any strength or size increase in an experienced natural lifter. Ignore that shit - take enough drugs and almost anything will make you grow. Train right and you will grow naturally and if you do decide to juice, you will get twice the results at half the dosage.

You might also give this thread a read. This is Johnsmith182's tribute thread at the Meso training board. Lots of good info and you will find that Starr's 5x5 is still very much in use in many of the top training facilities in the country: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=12

Here is something I wrote last night to a guy on the anabolic board. I usually don't like to get into training stuff much but this is an example of someone on a huge well thought out array of drugs and a program that I would be insulted to wipe my ass with. This amount of misinformation in BBing circles with regards to training never ceases to amaze me. Enjoy the read and good luck: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4307468&postcount=17

 

[lavi]

thanks again both you guys

I see a few different versions of the program here. the one that appeals to me the most is the one on the first post of the thread madcow linked to:

"---5X5---
Monday: Squats, Benching, Rows
Weds: Squats, Military Presses, Deadlifts, Chins
Friday: Squats, Benching, Rows


In any event i described a system in a post a while back that goes something like this:
Monday use the heaviest weight you can for all 5 sets (same weight each set)---- in other words when you get all 5 sets of 5 reps up the weight (most workouts you will get 3 or 4 sets of 5- and maybe your last one will be for 3 or 4 reps)

Wednesday use 10-20% less weight- in other words if you used 200lbs on monday use 160-180lbs on wednesday- actual amount depending on your recovery

Friday work up to a max set of 5- "

for me roysters doesnt work too well just because I dont know oly lifts and dips are a real pain in the shoulder

- I am confused about wednesday because except for squats it's all different exercises so I'm supposed to use 10-20% less weight than what?

my questions about modifications of this version:
would it be alright to use machines for the chins and especially the rows?

is it really enough work for my chest? i ask only because my chest is a big weakness

where could i add in a little of tri/ab assistance that seems to be absent in this program vs royster's?


if this can help me build up some size/strength im all for it. and it should definately help bring my squat up to par. thanks

also i am just curious about the light wednesday workout? is it to help recovery? form?


this should get 90% of my questions out of the way

 

[Madcow2]

No, it's not okay to use machines. Machines are far less effective. You can bust your ass on a machine and I can work like a total slacker with the free weight equivalent and I will dramatically out-gain you.

Not knowing the olympic lifts is okay - both programs are fairly equivalent. I would someday make an effort to learn the lifts even if it is only to the extent of the clean and snatch grip high pulls - or dynamic shrugs from the hang position. Dynamic pulling is not something you want to leave blank in your arsenal.

Make sure you start reasonably easy on the 5x5. It gets really hard really fast. I have a more in depth explanation here: http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=3989&view=findpost&p=69541

As far as what you want to do over time. It might be a bit advanced for you though but it will give you an idea on how the heavy and light integrate. Basically, you squat light on Wednesday and end up dropping it when moving into the intensity phase. As a beginner you might not be able to squat 3x per week.

Benching twice a week and working military is plenty for chest. If you want to train arms directly (and it really makes no difference as long term arm mass is driven by the compound exercises anyway rather than any isolation work) pick a single bicept and a single tricept exercise and work on getting better at them over the course. Don't perform either more than twice per week though. If you want to do abs - do some situps. They tend to take care of themselves if you are squating and pulling.

The max set of 5 on the heavier days is a perscription for a pyramid. I work up to a target weight. As the workload gets heavier I will drop a set or reps here and there but I always make sure I get to my target weight for each week.

Let's cover a few other things:

1) Squats - the top of your thighs should reach parallel (which means the entire body of your legs will be below parallel). In all honesty, you'll build a better foundation if you just go full range (as low as you can go - hams on calves) but for powerlifting you need to be at least this low.

2) Deads - work sets should all be done as a series of separate reps. The bar is totally deweighted onto the floor before commencing the next rep (your body does not hold the weight). The bar comes to a complete rest on the ground (hence the weight is in fact "dead" on the ground i.e. deadlift). It's okay to fire off faster reps for easy warm ups and such but don't do this for working sets. I've seen a guy struggle to get the weight off the ground and then bang out ten - lifting the weight from the floor is a totally different exercise than using the bounce and more effective.

Hope that helps.

 

[Royster]

madcow, thats some solid advice, im glad I can even find in here some good all natural sensible advice, rather than the giant sets, burn sets and only tricep/arm days reccomended by some gurus in here.

lavi, the Bill Starr program can be modified. Change the high pulls for barbell rows or any other back exercise. The main aim is to have one main compound exercise for each bodypart. As madcow says, you are working your chest enough with the exercises prescribed. Squat all the way down (hams touch calves) so you build a strong foundation and get some flexibility in your ankles and hips.

Dont use a weight a set weight for all sets, you are too weak to do this, and you'll burnout. Do as the begginer workout intends, last set is your balls out set.

You are making things complicated. Monday is your heavy day, wednesday is your light day, and friday is a day where you work hard on squats, but take it relatively easy on the rest of lifts.

re-read the articles given, youll understand them. Forget about machines, except if you happen to have a glute-ham raise or a hyper, then use them.

 

[Madcow2]

Dont use a weight a set weight for all sets, you are too weak to do this, and you'll burnout. Do as the begginer workout intends, last set is your balls out set.

This is very valid. At your stage you should arrange your workouts like this rather than warming up to a working set weight. The modified versions I referenced are more geared to an athlete who is already well trained and familiar with his capacities in each of the core lifts.

Also, don't worry about strength/size - they will come with this workout. I used a nearly identical program some time ago and ended up having to drastically curtail my diet to prevent gaining too much weight (I draw the line at 240 - at my age, I don't want to weigh any more than that). Just make sure you eat plenty, get good protein throughout the day, and a good sleep at night.

It's very easy to make progress with this program and it is almost ideal for building a rock solid foundation.

 

[c gheller]

great advice madcow. I was wondering Bro with the 5x5 routine you posted you said it can be modified. Can i do leg press instead of sqauts and is ther an alternative to deadlifts i can do as i have a back injury and i cant do those. Also with the barbell rows you say arch your middle back slightly.....do you mean lean a bit forward so that your torso is roughly halfway between verticle and horizontal?

 

[Madcow2]

great advice madcow. I was wondering Bro with the 5x5 routine you posted you said it can be modified. Can i do leg press instead of sqauts and is ther an alternative to deadlifts i can do as i have a back injury and i cant do those. Also with the barbell rows you say arch your middle back slightly.....do you mean lean a bit forward so that your torso is roughly halfway between verticle and horizontal?

Ok - in general, you never ever want to substitute leg press for a squat, there's no comparison in the results or stimulus for growth. For the deadlift, pulling is a fundemental movement to the body (like the squat) the only real substitutes involve nearly an identical motion done dynamically (power clean/snatch, high pulls etc...). With the modified 5x5s I've posted the squating is the key so making a substitution here isn't something I'd advise in any circumstance except one - injury.

In your case, a back injury precluding you from doing the movements, I'd substitute and work around as best I could. Hopefully it's not permanent and you can go back to regular lifting. That being said, a lot of the people who claim they can't squat or deadlift are using it as an excuse or had some lame brain general practitioner tell them that. Not saying that's your situation but if I'm going to put something down in writing other people read it too and I don't want some candy ass subsituting out the bread and butter lifts and wondering why he makes no progress.

So basically, you do what you can and your focus should be on getting better and improving your back - depending upon the injury, hypers are solid rehab as well as an assortment of stretches and basic bodyweight movements you can get from your P. Therapist.

For rows - I like to be as close to parallel to the ground as possible (back at 90 degrees). Obviously we all have varying degrees of flexability, so as low as you can without rounding, keep your back flat, and your chest should be visible in the mirror (head faces forward/body follows head/back will be flat to arched/you will see your pecs some in the mirror). What you don't want is the "bodybuilder bullshit row" where they are squating like taking a crap and their torso is nearly straight up and down making the range of motion look like a little shrug. This is due to horrible core strength.

 

[c gheller]

Ok well my injury is L3/4, L4/5 and L5s1 bulging disks. Ive had this niggling injury for a good 6-8 months now...during which time i only did leg extensions for legs and could not do anything that pulls me forward or bending over. As you can see i was and still am quite limited as to what i can do.
As for shirking squats..nah. Ive done 500-550lb squats week in week out up until my injury...i love em. This is simply a case of being scared because of my back. In regard to the rows..the post said bend your middle back slightly so i thought id clear that one with you. I did actually do squats the other day. Only 250lbs which is about all the courage i have to try at the moment. Is it worth doing squats with such a pathetic weight or should i do the leg press which i can still load up with no probs?

 

[curgeo]

Like all the others have said, you should probably stay away from isolation exercises. They really do nothing for your overall strength. Also, make sure you know what you are training for......strength training is different than bodybuilding. If you want a big chest, large calves and a tiny waist then powerlifting isn't for you. I learned that the hard way.

Read all you can. Elite is a good place to start, but make sure to check out www.elitefts.com. That site is all about powerlifting.....It's the resource that I continously refer to for more knowledge on training for strength. I was a bodybulder for 15 years and am powerlifting now and couldn't be happier. Elitefts helped to ease my transition into powerlifting.

There is also a book that is sold on that site called "The Science and Practice of Strength Training" by Vladimir Zatsiorsky. I recommend when you get extra money to buy that book. It tells you what you will need to know for your journey in strength training.

Lastly, goto the article section on elitefts and click on the "TMag" articles. You will find stuff written by Dave Tate for Tmag. Click on the "Eight Keys" articles and start there. You will understand a little better.

Good luck to you. I wish I had realized like yourself to get into powerlifting earlier. We are training a 17 year old kid right now that is eager and works harder than anybody we have allowed to train with us. This kid is going to be strong because he is smart and he reads as much as he can.

Take care and If we can help you let us know.

 

[c gheller]

Cant find the articles section bro..where is it?

 

[curgeo]

When you goto elitefts....it should be on the top left of the screen.....next goto "tmag" on the middle left hand side.......then click on the 8 keys article.

Email me if you have any problems finding it.

[email protected]

 

[c gheller]

Found it Bro...thank you...excellent reading!

 

[c gheller]

Curego or Madcow. ive begun the 5x5 training regime. I was wondering is this a successful way to stimulate muscle growth or is it more focussing on gaining strength?

 

[Madcow2]

Curego or Madcow. ive begun the 5x5 training regime. I was wondering is this a successful way to stimulate muscle growth or is it more focussing on gaining strength?

I have a couple of links in my threads - one is to Meso - read over the description of the 5x5 and 8 week squat programs. It's written by a very high level strength and conditioning coach. He'll tell you flat out that many athletes have trouble keeping their weight down and athletes close to a weight class line may have to drastically curtail their diets. My experience has been the same. It's a great all around foundation program. Mixing it up occasionally and addressing some weak points in your lifts with specialized assistance work, it could serve as the bread and butter routine for the majority of your training career, either as an athlete or a bodybuilder.

 

[c gheller]

Ok good. So you dont train any of the smaller muscle groups ie: biceps, calves etc with an exercise? I have no problem with not doing those, just want to maintain symmetry. Also in regards to diet. You say people have trouble keeping their weight down. Do they maintain a respectable level of bodyfat? Personally i have a HUGE apetite and have no trouble gaining weight. My problem is that i find myself restricting my intake because i dont want to get too fat...what is your take on this? This is also a three day a week program right? BTW thankyou for the help and advice.

 

[curgeo]

You can train calves and biceps or any other bodypart......but just make sure to do the main lifts....(deads, goodmornings, squats, bench, rows, dips, chins) and prioritize them.

As for maintaining weight....When I was a bodybuilder I was always worried about my bodyfat and it really suppressed my gains. You have to take in more than maintenance calories in order to get bigger. It is really hard to put on muscle while losing bodyfat at the same time. If you want to get stronger you have to make sure to eat. Bodyfat can come off later.

I think what madcow was referring to was people are putting on muscle with the program. A lot of sports have weight limits and the extra hypertrophy that you get from that program pushes them out of their weight class.

 

[Madcow2]

This is a 3 day per week program (at least the ones that I referenced - apparently there is another popular program running around the BBing boards that is also called 5x5 but this is the famous one of the same name). I happen to really like it because it provides a lot of extra time during the week for an athlete to pursue skills in his or her own sport (or do whatever you want) without compromising progress on your overall foundation of strength and power. These workouts get damn hard in the last weeks of the volume and intensity phases. The deloading periods are welcome when they come.

I wouldn't ever really bother training calves directly. Increase your squat and pull and your calve power will increase (dynamic pulling i.e. power cleans/high pulls/power shrugs) can also work these effectively.

The primary drivers for long term arm growth are overall body mass generators (squats/dead/heavy presses/rows). Direct work just tends to flush them out a bit. If it really worked well you can bet by now that one of the noodlearms in the gym who spend their lives training bis would have lucked into the right combination. If they spent their lives pulling and squatting - they'd be a lot bigger and have bigger arms. You can throw in a single bicept and a single tricept exercise if you wish. If volume gets overly hard, cut these if you choose.

The athletes in question are generally close to a class restriction or are already near their ideal weight for their sport. Take that to mean, low body fat levels. Diet is kind of outside the scope of all this. To be honest, get enough protein, space the protein throughout the day, take in more calories than your body needs to maintain itself (if you already have some decent fat on you, you are covering this). Satisfying basic dietary needs for growth is not rocket science but it is also not a license to indulge. Eat what you need but if the goal is to get bigger it will be very hard if you are worried about a gram of this and a gram of that straining out your egg whites. In short, eat to grow and the program will do the rest. If body fat levels are rising too quickly, scale back your carb/fat a bit and overall calories should adjust.

EDIT - I'm considering doing a complete write up of this program for this board. It's in 1000 other places around the net but this is a very easy to use program and it's a good illustration of regulating volume and intensity with the 2 distinct phases and the deloading week in the middle. It's very bodybuilder friendly once the powercleans are subbed out. I might also throw in some instructions for basic dynamic pulling.

 

[c gheller]

You mention power cleans. Im gonna stick to the :
Mon:Squat, Bench, Rows
Wed: Squats , Military Press, Deadlifts, Chins
Fri: Squats, Bench, Rows.
Is this ok to stick to? I can mix it up with powercleans from time to time i guess.

 

[Madcow2]

Stick with one exercise for the duration. Rotating things in to mix it up ends up screwing it up.

Remember that what you are doing on my program is not a simple supercompensation workout to workout thing (that stuff doesn't work as evidenced by the horrid success of most programs based solely on it). You are strategically accruing a decifit over time and providing just enough deloading (week 5, and then lower volume for the beginning of the intensity phase) to get your feet back from under you before you hit the overreaching again (after which another period of deloading is required).

 

[c gheller]

So how ong would you recommend i load and deload? So on the deloading phase how much volume should i drop? Are we talking in terms of dropping sets or reps and or poundages? At the first week of the next loading phase i should build it up over the first week and then hit it in the second week right?

 

[Madcow2]

http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=3989&st=0&p=69541&#entry69541

This was the link I posted before. I need to write up a general one for the board. The phases are clearly broken out and it should be pretty easy to see.

 

[c gheller]

Excellent! Thank you. I see you only do one set of rows on Mon (with extra warm ups for volume). Do you suggest i do this, or stick with the 5x5. Also when you say add weight weekly ( to the movements) you are only talking about a few pounds right?

 

[lavi]

Just to update my progress on what has been a great routine for me:
I started 6 or 7 weeks ago.
starting stats:
"5'6"
18yo
145lbs
195 bench
215 squat
365 deadlift
training 1-1.5yrs"
also:
pullups 15x3
military press - 105x3 (i truly neglect my lateral delts)


now, based on most recent workouts:
still 5'6" (damn!)
still 145 lbs
bench - 205x2
squat - 255x2
deadlift - 365x5
pullups: 30x3
military press: 120x3

I know most of you guys are bodybuilders and will notice my lack of weight gain. I am personally interested in powerlifting and strength training and consider this routine to be a huge success. I plan to continue to use the general template of the routine for a long time.

 

[Illuminati]

Just to update my progress on what has been a great routine for me:
I started 6 or 7 weeks ago.
starting stats:
"5'6"
18yo
145lbs
195 bench
215 squat
365 deadlift
training 1-1.5yrs"
also:
pullups 15x3
military press - 105x3 (i truly neglect my lateral delts)


now, based on most recent workouts:
still 5'6" (damn!)
still 145 lbs
bench - 205x2
squat - 255x2
deadlift - 365x5
pullups: 30x3
military press: 120x3

I know most of you guys are bodybuilders and will notice my lack of weight gain. I am personally interested in powerlifting and strength training and consider this routine to be a huge success. I plan to continue to use the general template of the routine for a long time.

Lavi,
Looks like you made some pretty nice gains over the last 7 weeks. Seems like this routine is working for you. keep working hard, and you will keep making progress. you might want to look into a WSB routine. this will better suit your powerlifting needs.

 

[Madcow2]

Nice results Lavi. You might consider a few weeks of lighter lower volume training in the future and then pushing on the program harder again. Especially if you're starting to fatigue and progress is slowing - plus you might find you gain quite a bit of muscle during this period (plus you need to make sure you are getting enough calories if this is a goal). EDIT: This is because there's no defined deloading period in the basic workout and you can only push so hard for so long. END EDIT Definitely look at WSB also for strict PL.

 

[lavi]

Thanks guys. I was actually doing WSB with the input of other powerlifters for the 6 months before this (without chains/bands). It wasn't working very well, although I don't know for sure why. It could be outside factors or still too much of a beginner. I think I just didn't fully understand how to manage volume and all the complications of WSB and still don't.

 

[Illuminati]

Thanks guys. I was actually doing WSB with the input of other powerlifters for the 6 months before this (without chains/bands). It wasn't working very well, although I don't know for sure why. It could be outside factors or still too much of a beginner. I think I just didn't fully understand how to manage volume and all the complications of WSB and still don't.

if you have any questions about WSB, feel free to post them up. would reccommend you post them over on the PL forum. or you can PM me, and I will do my best to answer your question, and if i can't, i will direct you to where you can look for the answer.
you can get a lot of info over at elitefts.com go to the articles section, and start reading. more than enough articles and info than you will ever need.

 

[lavi]

you can get a lot of info over at elitefts.com go to the articles section, and start reading. more than enough articles and info than you will ever need.

I think that was the problem for me. Too much info, too complicated, contradicting articles (partially because some are newer) and stuff like that. I ended up giving myself a headache and doing it wrong.

For now I'll be sticking to more basic workouts and when I get a bit bigger and a bit stronger I'll probably return to WSB. Thanks for offering me your help, hopefully, I'll remember to take you up on your offer

 

[Illuminati]

I think that was the problem for me. Too much info, too complicated, contradicting articles (partially because some are newer) and stuff like that. I ended up giving myself a headache and doing it wrong.

For now I'll be sticking to more basic workouts and when I get a bit bigger and a bit stronger I'll probably return to WSB. Thanks for offering me your help, hopefully, I'll remember to take you up on your offer

any time bro. any time.

 

[mayhems]

well the 5x5 works great, ive started doing a variation of that and seen minor increases over the past 2 weeks... but i suggest you throw some more core/cardio in there to strengthen your core obviously