Need some guidance here re: fatigue / progress

[Protobuilder]

I'm in uncharted territory here and need some advice. I don't know what's going on and I'm unsure how to handle it. I ran SF 5x5 for 15 weeks, gains petered out pretty bad, started getting real irritable, etc., so I took Madcow & BiggT's advice and I'm changing up some variables. But first, I decided to take a break (call it a taper or a deload or w/e). I've been on a "break" for about 9 days now. Problem is, I still feel like crap. I'm not motivated to lift. Even light/medium squats feel heavy. My lower back feels kinda' achey, etc. I'm surprised that I feel like this. Over the past 9 days, I've worked out maybe 3 times. The workouts consisted of basically just going for a max single to test my strength gains after the SF 5x5. The workouts weren't hard or anything. I basically warmed up, then did singles working my way up to new maxes. I didn't even go to failure (when the lift went up slow, I figured that was my max & stopped). I kept my cals at a reasonable level and I wasn't doing any kind of intense cardio/GPP. So basically, I've rested the last 7-9 days but still just don't feel like lifting and feel pretty blah. Tonight, I wanted to find my 8 rep maxes b/c my adjustments to the 5x5 involve running 8s for a while . . . and I just didn't feel like doing it at all. My strength was decent, aside from squats which just felt like hell even doing light/medium weights. . .

I'm not sure what to do here, mainly b/c I've really never taken time *off* before. I assumed that over the past week, I'd be ready to gear up and get back into it. But nope. So, i'd appreciate some input or some guidance on how to handle this/where to go.

One other quick question: my only pure leg exercise is back squats. Should I switch it out for awhile? If so, what's the next best overall leg exercise (no iso's please, LoL)? My back squat is pathetically weak--210 max single--so it's not like I'm pushing 400 3x/wk or anything, which I'd assume would take its toll after a while.

sorry for the long post. I only post a question when I can't find an answer on my own. Thanks.

 

[Numani]

you still sound overtrained.

I would lessen the frequency for while.

get the heavy bar off your back. work your hams/quads etc a different way maybe lunges, stiff legged deads etc

I don't feel quite the same but this week I have taken a week off squats and left it with 5 rep Good Mornings with moderate weight and done a bit for adductors

 

[BiggT]

I'd suggest more deloading, it is probably mental as much as physical now. With a 210 back squat, I'd hate to tell you to focus on another lift next training cycle because I think you've still got tons of progress to be made. But, to answer your question, about the only thing I'd consider on the level of the back squat is the front squat, albeit they are less taxing on the posterior chain and less of an overall stimulus due to the decreased loads.

You can do a couple of things. One is to stop squatting for a week or two and do front squats and lunges.....another (this is what I would do if I were you) is to take two weeks and train on Mon/Thurs only....or Tues/Fri....or whenever, just keep the math the same. I'd do a squat, pull, and press and work up to a 5 with 80% of your top set of 5 from the peak of your last cycle. For assistance, the only thing you should do is situps/back hypers. Even though you're not training, eat just as much as if you were, take some Vitamin C, throw in some good cheats, fast food, desserts, whatever you like, get extra sleep, do things you enjoy out of the gym, and in two weeks you should be ready to begin a new cycle.

My advice is to push the back squat next cycle though, you've just got too much untapped potential to put it on the back burner just yet.

 

[Madcow2]

I'd agree, get some rest - I think maybe you ran with the idea of keeping lifts moving up a bit too long (this was really meant to be used as a possible temp patch on a single lift or at the most two lifts with one being more minor in order to keep things in sych and not stop the program short if most of your big lifts were still scaling nicely). I should have probably stressed that more.

Don't drop the back squat. Change variables or pattern, add in fronts - doesn't really matter except that you don't drop it and keep working hard on it.

 

[Protobuilder]

I really appreciate the advice. I try my best to learn the METHOD so that I only have to ask once, and can then fly on my own. So, thanks guys.

Sounds like more rest is in order. But damn. I'm in week 2 right now of little to no activity.

I'd do a squat, pull, and press and work up to a 5 with 80% of your top set of 5 from the peak of your last cycle.

Can do. I thought, though, that the thing to do was try to keep the weights heavy, but just reduce your volume/frequency during a break? That's why I tried to use last week to just set some max singles, kind of get a feel for my progress. But I'll try your idea of hitting the weights twice a week and using a reduced load.

My advice is to push the back squat next cycle though, you've just got too much untapped potential to put it on the back burner just yet.

I REALLY want to keep pushing the back squat my next cycle, but I just wonder whether it's advisable to just do the same leg exercise over and over and over. I had planned, though, on adding in BB lunges on Wed. during my next cycle. Also, I'm looking into high pulls, which should work legs some too. About the untapped potential . . . heh, I appreciate your vote of confidence. Unfortunately, I'm almost 30, at about 170 w/ 16% BF, and T levels at just under 300 (seeing my doc on Fri. to figure something out). I've never been strong and it's very difficult for me to get stronger apparently. I hesitate to post my strength gains b/c they were good, but not blockbuster, and I don't want it to seem like I'm disparaging the program when I think a large portion of it has to do w/ biology. Believe me, I'd love to add 50-75 pounds to my squat but it's a slow boat to China my friend. LoL

Don't drop the back squat. Change variables or pattern, add in fronts - doesn't really matter except that you don't drop it and keep working hard on it.

Got it. I'd planned on doing 3x8 on Monday, 1x8 pyramid on Friday, and then after a while, going to a top set of 5 on Friday or maybe 3x3, etc. so I'd get 8s on Monday, and 3-5 on Fri.

 

[BiggT]

As far as the method here....I am just going by what has worked for me and other people I've trained with when you happen to really overreach and are just fried physically and mentally.....it is not set in stone.

You're right about the traditional deload, with a good 4 week push or so with good planning, it is very sufficient. But, you went linearly, and probably pushed a little bit too far, but that's okay......this is an art, not an exact science, and each obstacle is a learning experience.

In the future you will know your tolerances and how far you can push before taking a step back.

The 80% twice a week isn't some magic formula, you can go to 85% or whatever, but from my experience it is safe and will allow extreme amounts of fatigue to fade. Twice a week is a mental break and will amp up your desire to be in the gym......eating some more than usual fattening fried foods, some sweets, some junk, and the like will provide a great deal of emtional satisfaction and a sense of well being, as well as doing things you like. Instead of a normal scheduled workout on a Wed. night after work, get a massage, go out to dinner, go to a happy hour....do things that you normally don't get to do because of training, and within two weeks, you'll long for your normal routine.

Get your test levels squared away with your Dr....I don't know much about what is low/normal/high.....30 is by no means too old to gain. I'm going to be turning 27 and feel the best I have in my life....a good goal to shoot for short-term is to squat 150% of your bodyweight......once you get there shoot for double bodyweight....after two laid-back weeks like this, you should be good and ready for a strong push armed with the lessons learned from this round.

 

[Protobuilder]

You and Madcow seriously need to start your own site. Or set up paypal accounts and refuse to respond to threads until the poster deposits $1. LoL

I'm totally with you on the art v. science/learning process thing. Running the 5x5 and, more truthfully, READING about how to train/program, has been the single most valuable use of my time re: training. Each step is a learning experience. I now know that (a) I need to plan in some down time, (b) I actually have to MAKE myself take down time, LoL, and (c) I now know how to push myself into overreaching and, therefore, when I need to take a break. I didn't know any of that until I ran the SF 5x5. Honestly though, I didn't really feel "bad" or anything. I still felt like lifting, etc., but I was starting to get pretty pissy. LoL And my gains slowed significantly and I probably just kept pushing too hard. Those PRs are addictive though. LoL

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Madcow2]

The core to deloading and recovery is to cut workload. You can use any combination of variables to accomplish this. Increasing intensity slightly while reducing volume and frequency works well and is very popular - that said it should be obvious why, it serves to peak strength and this is very useful competitively and just generally nice to see the progression. That doesn't mean it's the only way to go about it. You can deload doing anything you want as long as it provides the necessary margin of recovery and balances the goal (i.e. 3 weeks in the islands would be nice too for recovery but there's a performance tradeoff too).

And the thing about tolerance is - how do you know your limit unless you've run into it and how do you know what you need to recover unless it's been necessary. It's about experience - nothing in any book can teach you that, all it can do is help you understand what's going on and save you from large scale error.

 

[Protobuilder]

Wise words. First, you've gotta get your head around dual factor theory and fatigue. Then, you've gotta' experience it and learn to deal with it individually. Two very diff't things.