need some advise from the vets

[Spidey]

It has been approx. 7 or 8 weeks since my last cycle and I am starting to develope classic gyno symptoms; sensitive nipples, hard knots and clear discharge. I did a search and found this is not uncommon (to develop gyno after a cycle).

My cycle consisted of:

weeks 1-3 tren (50 mg ed)
weeks 4-8 tren (50 mg ed) + test prop (50 mg ed)
weeks 9-11 test prop (50 mg ed) + N-Dex (10 mg ed)

I started clomid therapy 3 days after last shot of test prop and took 100 mg ed for the first week and 50 mg ed the second week.
I had my test levels checked some 2 weeks after that and free test and serum bound test were squarely in the middle of the normal range. So, it's not that my test levels haven't recovered.

I ordered some N-dex 2 weeks ago but haven't received it yet. My question for the vets is this:

What would be better to treat my gyno with: An estrogen blocker like Nolvadex or and aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex?

Comon and help me out guys. Before I have to go shopping for bras .

-Spidey

 

[Ulter]

Nolva is quicker and cheaper. Arimidex is a better choice though in the long run though because the nolva may cause a rebound when you stop, though it's unlikely, Arimidex on the other hand won't.

 

[Seth Roberts]

progesterone

I thik what you are experiencing is due to progestagenic action of trenbolone during your cycle. The activation of progesterone receptors causes an upregulation of estrogen receptors in target tissues which lowers the threshold for estrogen activation. Nolvadex would seem like a good choice.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Yet another example that Clomid blows.

Get some Proviron bro. Also take some Flax Seed oil. (Reduces tumor growth). Get some Nettles to lower prolactin. (DO NOT take Vitex). Some Yohimburn and Thiomumase may help too.

If nothing helps, you're off to doc to get cut -- or be a tittie man.

Anyone else care to say how great tren is?

 

[Canuck4]

You should have some Bromo on hand.

 

[Spidey]

Yet another example that Clomid blows.

Get some Proviron bro. Also take some Flax Seed oil. (Reduces tumor growth). Get some Nettles to lower prolactin. (DO NOT take Vitex). Some Yohimburn and Thiomumase may help too.

If nothing helps, you're off to doc to get cut -- or be a tittie man.

Anyone else care to say how great tren is?

Thanks for the advice Nelson. I don't quite follow your logic though.

"Yet another example that Clomid blows." OK, I'll bite. What does Clomid have to do with this? My HPTA recovered in two weeks due to clomid therapy. I didn't crash or lose any of my gains and my test levels are normal.

"Also take some Flax Seed oil. (Reduces tumor growth)" Again, I don't have a TUMOR. What is flax seed oil going to do for gyno?

"Anyone else care to say how great tren is?" OK, I know you don't like tren but I think your bias is missplaced. You don't like tren acetate because it is a vet steroid, right? Well, as I'm sure you know, parabolan (a popular HUMAN steroid) was tren as well, just a different ester. There's virtually no difference between the two as far as effects; tren is tren. You just have to shoot tren ac more often because it is a shorter acting ester.

As far as tren causing an upgrade in estrogen receptors, good point Seth. However, I would like to point out to nelson that this could be a problem with deca or probably anadrol as well due to their progesterogenic activity. It's not just a problem with tren.

We all take our chances with the side effects of steroids. Progesterone gyno from tren is VERY RARE. Gyno from anadrol, d-bol, and even test is far more common. Why do you like those steroids Nelson? I gained 18 lbs in the first three weeks of tren only with no sides except some muscle tightness and night sweats. I felt great while I was on too. Fina definately was a positive for me and I'll use it again. I've seen people take anadrol for two weeks and end up with gyno (and then lose all their gains to boot).

Anyway, sorry for the rant . I hope that N-dex gets here soon. I emailed the company I ordered from yesterday but no reply. I hope I haven't been scammed. It would be a bad time to be scammed, LOL.

-Spidey

 

[Spidey]

Re: progesterone

I thik what you are experiencing is due to progestagenic action of trenbolone during your cycle. The activation of progesterone receptors causes an upregulation of estrogen receptors in target tissues which lowers the threshold for estrogen activation. Nolvadex would seem like a good choice.

How long would the upregulation of estrogen receptors continue? It's not a permanent change is it? How long do you think I should take Nolva and at what dosage? 20 mg ed?

Canuck- Is bromo going to help existing gyno or just prevent it from occuring in the first place? What are the sides/dangers from bromo?

-Spidey

 

[Seth Roberts]

unknown

That is definately a big unknown. As soon as the progestagenic influence is removed then the upregulation would stop. As to how long the higher level of estrogen receptors would remian is anyone's guess but I would doubt if it would longer than 2 weeks.

 

[mvmaxx]

I'd definitely get on 40mg Nolvadex/ED and 2.5mg Bromo/ED. The sooner the better.

 

[Canuck4]

Re:

It will definetely help with prolacting gyno associated with fina usage.
Bromocriptine is a semi-synthetic derivative of the ergo group of ergot alkaloids is a dopamine receptor agonist and a prolactin inhibitor. It is a potent D2 agonist but also displays partial action on D1 receptors) and a prolactin inhibitor.

Side effects are usually limited to nausea, hot flushes, mild gastric upset, hypotension and dizziness. At high dosages bradycardia, increased appetite, agitation, diarrhea and perspiration have been known to present themselves.

Canuck- Is bromo going to help existing gyno or just prevent it from occuring in the first place? What are the sides/dangers from bromo?

-Spidey [/B]

 

[Seth Roberts]

noticed

I just noticed you've been off the tren for more than three weeks, however, you took prop with the tren for 4 weeks without any estrogen protection and with only minimal estrogen protection for 3 weeks. Takes some time to clear that estrogen out of the system but at this point, aside from prolactin you may be clearing up on your own. Would need estrogen levels as well as prolactin levels to know for sure.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Spidey: You're wrong.

Here's why...

Gyno IS a tumor bro.

Your HPTA could have recovered without the Clomid -- and you still got gyno, which goes to show, Clomid blows.

When and/or where did I ever say I liked Anadrol or Deca?

People keep insisting that Fina is great but they almost always have problems with it. You know why everyone makes gains on it? BECAUSE IT INCREASES ESTROGEN!!! Estrogen ehnances growth. But of course, using a steroid that aromatizes less and not using an anti-e isn't enough. More drugs! More drugs! And then some more drugs still, to counteract the side effects of the other drugs. It's all so scientific.

You're arguing with me that your choices were wise, but I'm not the one with tits.

The fact that you're getting cramps and night sweats proves somethings not right. Steroids should make you feel healthy, not sick.But hey, what do I know?

 

[Spidey]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll definately hop on the nolva as soon as I get some. I may email my doctor to arrange a blood test for estrogen and prolactin as well, although I may have to pay out of pocket for it.

Canuck- Bromo sounds effective but risky. I've been off cycle for long enough now that I think the nolva and maybe some nettles (like Nelson suggested) will do the trick. Besides, I don't think this is progesterone related gyno. I think it is estrogen related. I had no sides at all until I started the test prop.

I had another cycle planned for late January. Do you think that is jumping the gun a little? It will have been 11 weeks off, but I don't want to end up with bigger tits than my wife, LOL. Here is what I had planned:

weeks 1-6: d-bol (25 mg ed) + tren (50 mg ed)
weeks 7-10: tren (50 mg ed) + test prop (25 mg ed)

Clomid therapy after and Nolva on hand throughout. I probably should add in some aromasen (sp?) as well to prevent estrogen buildup. How much is that going to affect my gains though? That's why I didn't run an aromatase inhibitor on my first cycle. I wanted all the gains I could get.

-Spidey

 

[Nelson Montana]

>sigh<













.

 

[liftsiron]

Gotta love the fina I would use 30 to 40 mg of nolva a day liberal amounts of nettles and 200mg of either test cyp or enath a week, yes I would use test with the nolvadex to revearse gyno I have seen this method work countless times more effectively than nolvadex alone. After the gyno is revearsed continue the nolvadex for another month at 20mg a day and, use hcg to restore htpa after you stop the test. This will work, but may not completely cure your gyno, as each case of gyno responds individually.

 

[Canuck4]

Your basicly using the same substances again. Test prop and Fina with the addition of dbol.
Its a common mistake people to think that an anti-e will restrict gains that much.
It will keep water and estrogen low so the gains are most likely to be keepable.
This time run some arimidex, or femera. Or if you got the money aromasin would be nice.
Maybe take some more time off to get rid of any gyno symptoms you're experiencing and then start thinking about a cycle.
Good luck bro.

I had another cycle planned for late January. Do you think that is jumping the gun a little? It will have been 11 weeks off, but I don't want to end up with bigger tits than my wife, LOL. Here is what I had planned:

weeks 1-6: d-bol (25 mg ed) + tren (50 mg ed)
weeks 7-10: tren (50 mg ed) + test prop (25 mg ed)

Clomid therapy after and Nolva on hand throughout. I probably should add in some aromasen (sp?) as well to prevent estrogen buildup. How much is that going to affect my gains though? That's why I didn't run an aromatase inhibitor on my first cycle. I wanted all the gains I could get.

-Spidey

 

[Spidey]

Spidey: You're wrong.

Here's why...

Gyno IS a tumor bro.

Your HPTA could have recovered without the Clomid -- and you still got gyno, which goes to show, Clomid blows.

When and/or where did I ever say I liked Anadrol or Deca?

People keep insisting that Fina is great but they almost always have problems with it. You know why everyone makes gains on it? BECAUSE IT INCREASES ESTROGEN!!! Estrogen ehnances growth. But of course, using a steroid that aromatizes less and not using an anti-e isn't enough. More drugs! More drugs! And then some more drugs still, to counteract the side effects of the other drugs. It's all so scientific.

You're arguing with me that your choices were wise, but I'm not the one with tits.

The fact that you're getting cramps and night sweats proves somethings not right. Steroids should make you feel healthy, not sick.But hey, what do I know?

First of all, gyno is developing breast tissue, NOT A TUMOR. Unless your trying to tell me that all women have a couple of tumors hanging off them, LOL.

Second, Yes, it's possible that my HPTA may have recovered without clomid. Then again, I may have crashed and lost all my hard earned gains. My point is that my current problem has nothing to do with clomid use. Also, I concede that I have never seen you advocate anadrol or deca. My bad What DO you like?

Third, I think you are a little confused. Trenbolone DOESN'T AROMATIZE! It doesn't create ANY estrogen. This is a widely known fact; look at any profile available for tren. The rare cases of tren (or deca) related gyno are progesterone related, not estrogen related. I don't think I am suffering from progesterone related gyno as the time frame is too long after cycle.

Fourth, I don't have tits (yet). I am just now becoming symptomatic and hope to nip this in the bud before I get tits.

Fifth, and finally, I never said I was having cramps, just some muscle tightness. You know, just feeling a little bound up. If you go back and read my post, I said I felt great while I was on tren; not sick at all.

-Spidey

 

[Spidey]

"what do I know?"

Hey Nelson. Don't get so defensive bro. I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with you here, LOL. You think I'm wrong. That's cool. I am not so pig-headed that I can't ever be convinced of a view contrary to my own. Show me some scientific data or journal abstracts that back up your point of view and I may change my mind.

As for you others out there, thanks for the advice. If any of you agree with Nelson on the cause of my problem and the best treatment for it, please speak up. I started this thread to get all points of view and advice.

-Spidey

 

[mvmaxx]

Spidey - as an FYI I have seen others that have started to get gyno post cycle after only taking Tren, or at least Tren being the culprit. Ask Nathan, bromo helped him and his situation sounded identical to yours. ....except he's a

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nah, no pissing. Just trying to get some points through. Maybe I'm not doing a good job of it.

Gyno is a begine tumor. Womens breasts are not gyno.

Yes, mixed up my progesterone with estrogen. Sorry -- didn't sleep much last nght. Point is -- estrogen increases gains, and taking an anti-estrogen for progesterone is kind of pointless don't you think?

I'm sighing because you say things like you have night sweats, but you feel great! Well, night sweating isn't normal, nor can I imagine it feeling great. You want advice, then essentially ignore it, and as Canuck stated, you're just going back to do the same thing! So how can you expect a different result?

 

[Punschkrapfen]

First of all, gyno is developing breast tissue, NOT A TUMOR.

as a medical term, gynecomastia is also used to describe male breast carcinomas; breast growth can be caused by a tumor, for example, the knots that you feel can be a due to a fibroid adenoma (fibroblastic tumor - read this case report: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1315437&dopt=Abstract and this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2378397&dopt=Abstract ), or you could have phyllodes tumor (read: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1849845&dopt=Abstract and: http://www.thedoctorsdoctor.com/diseases/phyllodes_tumor.htm ).

if i had those symptoms i would not take any chances and seek a doctors help, like any women would do asap.

btw, i find it impossible that excess estrogen is causing this. estradiol has a half life of 60-90 minutes (!); there is no way of an estrogen buildup without the presence of testosterone in the male body. one explanation would be that something has increased the estrogen receptors in the breast tissue or has upregulated them, and therefore normal levels of estrogen cause mammary growth. My favorite would be prolactin; there must be a way to test for this and if it is the cause, bromocriptin is the right drug to use, read: http://www.c3.hu/~mavideg/jns/4.html

 

[Spidey]

as a medical term, gynecomastia is also used to describe male breast carcinomas; breast growth can be caused by a tumor, for example, the knots that you feel can be a due to a fibroid adenoma (fibroblastic tumor - read this case report: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1315437&dopt=Abstract and this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2378397&dopt=Abstract ), or you could have phyllodes tumor (read: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1849845&dopt=Abstract and: http://www.thedoctorsdoctor.com/diseases/phyllodes_tumor.htm ).

if i had those symptoms i would not take any chances and seek a doctors help, like any women would do asap.

btw, i find it impossible that excess estrogen is causing this. estradiol has a half life of 60-90 minutes (!); there is no way of an estrogen buildup without the presence of testosterone in the male body. one explanation would be that something has increased the estrogen receptors in the breast tissue or has upregulated them, and therefore normal levels of estrogen cause mammary growth. My favorite would be prolactin; there must be a way to test for this and if it is the cause, bromocriptin is the right drug to use, read: http://www.c3.hu/~mavideg/jns/4.html

Thanks for the info. I may be a little predisposed to gyno as I did get a minor case during puberty as well. Of course, that went away on its own.

Where can I get some bromo? and is that something I could take during my cycle to prevent prolactin buildup?

-Spidey

 

[Judo Tom]

bro there is no way i would jump back on tren after getting gyno from it..

also if you think it was from the test dont jump on test and then add dbol

i just dont think thats a good idea..

i would look into test only or test + eq

maybe anavar??

good luck bro

 

[Spidey]

Nah, no pissing. Just trying to get some points through. Maybe I'm not doing a good job of it.

Gyno is a begine tumor. Womens breasts are not gyno.

Yes, mixed up my progesterone with estrogen. Sorry -- didn't sleep much last nght. Point is -- estrogen increases gains, and taking an anti-estrogen for progesterone is kind of pointless don't you think?

I'm sighing because you say things like you have night sweats, but you feel great! Well, night sweating isn't normal, nor can I imagine it feeling great. You want advice, then essentially ignore it, and as Canuck stated, you're just going back to do the same thing! So how can you expect a different result?

OK, the night sweats weren't fun but they were tolerable and I felt good during the day, more energy, better mood, etc. I never expected steroids to be side effect free. It was something I was willing to put up with for a short time (8 weeks). I was thankful I didn't have a problem with hairloss, acne or aggression.

I am not ignoring everyone's advice, just pondering and discussing. There is more than one opinion on this thread about what I should do; I am trying to look at and evaluate them all.

I see your point about taking anti-estrogens for progesterone related gyno. Truthfully, I thought I was probably suffering from estrogen related gyno from the test prop but I could be wrong on that.

I was planning a nearly identical cycle because it worked so well for me last time. I gained 25 lbs; my strength went through the roof, and I kept every bit of it until an unrelated shoulder problem forced me out of the gym for 6 weeks. Even with that long layoff, I've only lost about 5 lbs. You notice that Canuck did not advise against that cycle. If I take a few more precautions this time like maybe some bromo to avoid prolactin buildup, I shouldn't have the same problem with gyno. If I do start to have symptoms again, I will quit and the tren will be out of my system in 4 or 5 days.

I am trying to be cautious here, even if it doesn't seem so to you. My dosages are low to moderate and everything I am taking is short acting so I can discontinue if a problem arises and have the offending compound out of my system quickly.

-Spidey

 

[Seth Roberts]

missed points

I think some points of mine may have been misinterpretted or missed altogether.

Taking an AS that is an activator of the progesterone receptor(such as fina) will result in an increase in estrogen receptor number in the breast tissue. Increasing the number of estrogen receptors lowers the threshold concentration at which estrogen will act. Aside from increasing estrogen receptors, progesterone does have a gynecomastia inducing affect of its own. Taking an estrogen antagonist will not help to antagonize the progesterone receptor but will help to block the increased number of estrogen receptors in the breast.

by the way, the half-life for FREE estradiol may be 60-90 minutes, but don't forget that there is a pool of estrogen bound in plasma (by SHBG and other binding proteins). Also, estradiol is not the only active estrogen and new estrogen is always being produced. Just FYI.

Finally, taking bromo will help lower prolactin, but it will not help to reduce estrogen or progesterone reeptor activation.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

1. trenbolone, nandrolone and oxymethelone (or their metabolites) are progestins.

2. prolactin suppression is advisable, in most if not all cases. However bromo can be quite harsh. there are a # of options among the ergot derivatives (selegine, hydergine, dostinex, ETC..) bromo can be sed with good results at MUCH LOWER dosages than people reccomend.. ie 1/4 tab eod or even eood.

3. most people will note that prolactin levels are not high when tested.. this is irrelevant.. as prolactin levels spike.. its the spikes that are the issue. one would also guess that in combination with other factors even slightly elevated prolactin causes problems.

4. clomid is not good for fibroid issues.

5. aromatase inhibitors are a must on any aromatic cycle.

6. oral can exacerbate gyno, winstrol and anavar in particular (though this varies a lot among users).. why? ELEVATED IGF.. igf is a "baddy" with respect to both hard tissues (male) and breast cancers (female)... actually studies indicate that much of the effect of the nolva (in female patients) may be related to reduction of igf-1 moreso than inhibition of binding..

7. yohimburn will help with fats accumulated and puffyness.. any affect on hard tissue will be indirect (if any.. some users do report.. perhaps due to reduced local aromatization).. yohimburn is not a hard tissue gyno treatment (though would not be disappointed if it were )

 

[40butpumpin]

OK, the night sweats weren't fun but they were tolerable and I felt good during the day, more energy, better mood, etc. I never expected steroids to be side effect free. It was something I was willing to put up with for a short time (8 weeks). I was thankful I didn't have a problem with hairloss, acne or aggression.

I am not ignoring everyone's advice, just pondering and discussing. There is more than one opinion on this thread about what I should do; I am trying to look at and evaluate them all.

I see your point about taking anti-estrogens for progesterone related gyno. Truthfully, I thought I was probably suffering from estrogen related gyno from the test prop but I could be wrong on that.

I was planning a nearly identical cycle because it worked so well for me last time. I gained 25 lbs; my strength went through the roof, and I kept every bit of it until an unrelated shoulder problem forced me out of the gym for 6 weeks. Even with that long layoff, I've only lost about 5 lbs. You notice that Canuck did not advise against that cycle. If I take a few more precautions this time like maybe some bromo to avoid prolactin buildup, I shouldn't have the same problem with gyno. If I do start to have symptoms again, I will quit and the tren will be out of my system in 4 or 5 days.

I am trying to be cautious here, even if it doesn't seem so to you. My dosages are low to moderate and everything I am taking is short acting so I can discontinue if a problem arises and have the offending compound out of my system quickly.

-Spidey

Spidey, my advice is to take a more scientific approach to the whole thing and only work with one variable, or AS, at a time. It is pretty close to impossible to really know what's happening with multiple variables in the equation at the same time. I realize this isn't a popular approach but if you really want to know what's happening and you really want to be cautious, it's the only way. Gains will still be there and IMO one has nothing to lose by doing this. I know this seems conservative but it's also smart, besides I believe conservatism means longevity, especially in this world. Good luck to you brother.

 

[Spidey]

1. trenbolone, nandrolone and oxymethelone (or their metabolites) are progestins.

2. prolactin suppression is advisable, in most if not all cases. However bromo can be quite harsh. there are a # of options among the ergot derivatives (selegine, hydergine, dostinex, ETC..) bromo can be sed with good results at MUCH LOWER dosages than people reccomend.. ie 1/4 tab eod or even eood.

3. most people will note that prolactin levels are not high when tested.. this is irrelevant.. as prolactin levels spike.. its the spikes that are the issue. one would also guess that in combination with other factors even slightly elevated prolactin causes problems.

4. clomid is not good for fibroid issues.

5. aromatase inhibitors are a must on any aromatic cycle.

6. oral can exacerbate gyno, winstrol and anavar in particular (though this varies a lot among users).. why? ELEVATED IGF.. igf is a "baddy" with respect to both hard tissues (male) and breast cancers (female)... actually studies indicate that much of the effect of the nolva (in female patients) may be related to reduction of igf-1 moreso than inhibition of binding..

7. yohimburn will help with fats accumulated and puffyness.. any affect on hard tissue will be indirect (if any.. some users do report.. perhaps due to reduced local aromatization).. yohimburn is not a hard tissue gyno treatment (though would not be disappointed if it were )

Good info. I tried to PM you but your box is full. I've heard some good things about dostinex. I will do a search and try to find out more about it. In the meantime, where can I buy dostinex if I need it?

-Spidey