Need Info For Article. Input Appreciated

[Nelson Montana]

I'm doing a piece on HCG and I'd like to get some experiences.

I've felt for some time that the common dosage was way too high. (The prescribed dose for women) I've also found that once the balls are back, they're back. And it didn't take much. I've experimented with various dosing however.

At first I did the "low dose over a weeks time" method to avoid estrogen spikes. This makes sense. However, prolonged treatment of ANY compound leads to a tolerence. And the ledig cells are pretty sensitive. it's possible to overdo HCG to the point where it stops working.

Lately I've found a bigger dose --1000 i.u.s on back to back days worked best. (Total of 2000i.iu's) The boys came back quicky and the effects lasted the longest.

So I have two questions...

Has anyone else tried various types of administration and if so, which worked better for you?

And...

Has anyone found that HCG stopped working for them? And how much did you do?


Thanks for all who can contribute.

 

[Primordial Performance]

Ive had an HCG article under wraps for the last 3 months. Ill be submitting it to Meso later this week. Im sure you will find some answers on there.

HCG on cycle is the only protocol that really makes sense upon examining the research.

Its time to put the “post cycle hCG protocol” to bed.

-Pp

 

[nydj66]

Even if you use HCG on-cycle I still think it's a benefit to run it for 2 weeks after a cycle to keep your test levels elevated while you wait for long ester compounds to clear from your body.

But regarding your original question, Nelson. I remember seeing a study a couple years back looking at men who had been on HRT who went off in order to concieve children. The study showed that even after years of HRT, LH levels returned to normal after about 3 weeks. Then it took another 3-4 weeks after that for the testes to recover their function. If you think about it, the testes can't begin to recover until they're being stimulated by LH.

Based on that I switched from using a couple large dose (5000IU) injections prior to PCT to using 500IU/day for 20 days. That lead to the best recovery I ever had.

Of course I historically had poor recoveries and eventually found out it was because my baseline testosterone level was 196 ng/dl. Now I'm on permanant HRT.

 

[Primordial Performance]

Even if you use HCG on-cycle I still think it's a benefit to run it for 2 weeks after a cycle to keep your test levels elevated while you wait for long ester compounds to clear from your body.

But regarding your original question, Nelson. I remember seeing a study a couple years back looking at men who had been on HRT who went off in order to concieve children. The study showed that even after years of HRT, LH levels returned to normal after about 3 weeks. Then it took another 3-4 weeks after that for the testes to recover their function. If you think about it, the testes can't begin to recover until they're being stimulated by LH.

Based on that I switched from using a couple large dose (5000IU) injections prior to PCT to using 500IU/day for 20 days. That lead to the best recovery I ever had.

Of course I historically had poor recoveries and eventually found out it was because my baseline testosterone level was 196 ng/dl. Now I'm on permanant HRT.

You want to drop hCG a couple weeks before the AAS levels clear the body to allow the testis to resensitize to LH again. It seems that 7-10 days is the ideal time for this, and accounting for HCG’s long half-life you would want to drop it on your last shot.

-Pp

 

[medrep]

So PP, how do you run HCG during?

 

[Primordial Performance]

So PP, how do you run HCG during?

200iu EOD best mimics natural LH... or if your a lazy ass .... then 500iu EOD in the for a few weeks in the "middle" of the cycle will do the job.

-Pp

 

[Ross]

1500-3000 I.U. every 4th or 5th day, for a duration no longer than 2 or 3 weeks.

Straight BUTTA.

 

[Ross]

You want to drop hCG a couple weeks before the AAS levels clear the body to allow the testis to resensitize to LH again. It seems that 7-10 days is the ideal time for this, and accounting for HCG’s long half-life you would want to drop it on your last shot.

-Pp

In my opinoin, HCG should not be started until AFTER exogenous androgens have exited the system.

You can use HCG while on cycle as well, but this is a different protocol.

 

[tshoot]

500IUs once a week starting after the 3rd week seemed to work well for me. Dropped the shots 2 weeks before starting PCT. I think higher dosage shots drive up your estrogen level too much.

 

[medrep]

500IUs once a week starting after the 3rd week seemed to work well for me. Dropped the shots 2 weeks before starting PCT. I think higher dosage shots drive up your estrogen level too much.

and how long was your cycle?

 

[tshoot]

and how long was your cycle?

About 10 weeks. Cut it shorter than I wanted due to travel plans.

 

[Nelson Montana]

500IUs once a week starting after the 3rd week seemed to work well for me. Dropped the shots 2 weeks before starting PCT. I think higher dosage shots drive up your estrogen level too much.

Throughout the cycle? And you felt the last 1000ius a week kept you up for the next 2-3 weeks?

 

[tshoot]

Yes, I ran it from weeks 3-8 at 500IU per week. I ran Anavar/Winny the last 3 weeks to let the Test E clear and then hit PCT right after week 10 (2 days after my last dose of Anavar/Winny). I didn't think 2 weeks without HCG was that long before hitting PCT.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Look up (on Medline), HCG + Vitamin E. You'll be surprised. Also, look up it's interactions with Tamoxifen. I wouldn't use HCG without Vit E + Tamox.

I favor HCG for Post Cycle Therapy, along with the rest of my PCT.

And finally, Nelson...can we get that article on HCG in the new Magazine we're writing for, or is it going online somewhere (or in a different magazine)?

 

[njmuscleguy]

So many "theories", it's head-spinning.... run HCG during PCT, don't run it during PCT... run it with nolva or clomid, don't run it with them! I can only speak from experience, my first handful of PCT's, I ran HCG at 1,500iu, 3 times a week during PCT... I tried immediately after the end of the cycle, a week after... 2 weeks after... the results were always the same (unsuccessful)... IMO, the dosage was too high, too many spikes...my boys would respond for the first few days then go back into hybernation... Now I much prefer running 500iu ED for the last 10 days of a cycle if it's short esters, or starting with the last shot of it's long esters. Next time I will try running it during the cycle and see how that fares.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

With smaller doses, you get less of an estrogen spike.

 

[tshoot]

So many "theories", it's head-spinning.... run HCG during PCT, don't run it during PCT... run it with nolva or clomid, don't run it with them! I can only speak from experience, my first handful of PCT's, I ran HCG at 1,500iu, 3 times a week during PCT... I tried immediately after the end of the cycle, a week after... 2 weeks after... the results were always the same (unsuccessful)... IMO, the dosage was too high, too many spikes...my boys would respond for the first few days then go back into hybernation... Now I much prefer running 500iu ED for the last 10 days of a cycle if it's short esters, or starting with the last shot of it's long esters. Next time I will try running it during the cycle and see how that fares.

I agree completely with what you are saying. I tried do 1500iu every other week during my cycle before and, the first couple of times my little guys responded well, after that - not so well. Plus a lot of estrogen side affects, blood pressure seemed to go up, more bloated, etc. Doing smaller dosages more frequently this time seemed to help.

 

[tshoot]

Look up (on Medline), HCG + Vitamin E. You'll be surprised. Also, look up it's interactions with Tamoxifen. I wouldn't use HCG without Vit E + Tamox.

I favor HCG for Post Cycle Therapy, along with the rest of my PCT.

And finally, Nelson...can we get that article on HCG in the new Magazine we're writing for, or is it going online somewhere (or in a different magazine)?

Intuitively, I can't believe that it is good for your HPTA or recovery to allow your testicles to atrophy for long periods of time. What do you recommend to do to prevent this or are you saying that it is okay to allow this?

Also, what is the PCT protocol you are recommending and why? I am open to hearing sound reasoning on a specific protocol.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Intuitively, I can't believe that it is good for your HPTA or recovery to allow your testicles to atrophy for long periods of time. What do you recommend to do to prevent this or are you saying that it is okay to allow this?

Also, what is the PCT protocol you are recommending and why? I am open to hearing sound reasoning on a specific protocol.

This is why I want to get input. People respond differently. I found that 500 over a length of time never quite kicked in for me. AND I'M A PRO LOW DOSE GUY. With HCG, the "hit it and quit" method worked best. I also felt the results don't last too long but agree, having working testicles is the first step to recovery.

PCT proticol? I do believe in tapering down, though some consider this unnecessary. Proviron can help cushion the fall. That's the reason I developed UNLEASHED -- something that would lower SHBG. I think that's a HUGE factor in recovery.

I do like a-dex post cycle, though some would disagree.

Anthony's supp MyogenX can help with increasing LH. A natty anti e like dermacrine or "POST CYCLE" will certainly help.

The clomid thing is up in the air. I simply hate the fucking stuff.

Other than that, time, patience, sleep, and staying healthy.

 

[Ross]

I don't use HCG while ON CYCLE, as overuse can cause desensitization of the leydig cells in the testes.

After your Active Recovery, begin PCT:

HCG(Restore testicular mass)
Vitamin E(Interacts with HCG)
Nolvadex(Increase endogenous Testosterone)
Aromasin(Decrease Estrogen, increase testosterone)
Cabergoline(Decrease prolactin)
Proviron(Decrease estrogen, increase Free T, increase well-being and Libido)
7-Keto DHEA(Drastically reduces CORTISOL)
Zinc(Decreases Aromatase activity, increases androgen sesnsitivity)
CellMass(Creatine anabolic support)
SuperPump 250(Creatine/Pre-workout)
Tribex(Herbal forumlation to increase endoegnous testosterone)
LJ-100(Herbal formulation to increase FREE TEST, increases pituitary sensitvity)

If that protocol does not light your fire, you are DEAD.

 

[solidspine]

I have been doing 500iu per day for a simple 10 days with nolvadex


Locally a lot of the guys that see HRT docs are doing more, like 1000iu per day for 10 days,


These HRT docs have not been big on any compounds for anti-e,


Mostly Test C, Growth, and now, just recently pct,


Go figure



Good luck on your article.

 

[tshoot]

I don't use HCG while ON CYCLE, as overuse can cause desensitization of the leydig cells in the testes.

After your Active Recovery, begin PCT:

HCG(Restore testicular mass)
Vitamin E(Interacts with HCG)
Nolvadex(Increase endogenous Testosterone)
Aromasin(Decrease Estrogen, increase testosterone)
Cabergoline(Decrease prolactin)
Proviron(Decrease estrogen, increase Free T, increase well-being and Libido)
7-Keto DHEA(Drastically reduces CORTISOL)
Zinc(Decreases Aromatase activity, increases androgen sesnsitivity)
CellMass(Creatine anabolic support)
SuperPump 250(Creatine/Pre-workout)
Tribex(Herbal forumlation to increase endoegnous testosterone)
LJ-100(Herbal formulation to increase FREE TEST, increases pituitary sensitvity)

If that protocol does not light your fire, you are DEAD.

Ross, how long are your typical cycles and what dosage are you using for the PCT compounds above? Thanks for the info and the reasons why you choose to use them. Looks like PCT could be more expensive than the cycle itself.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I have been doing 500iu per day for a simple 10 days with nolvadex


Locally a lot of the guys that see HRT docs are doing more, like 1000iu per day for 10 days,


These HRT docs have not been big on any compounds for anti-e,


Mostly Test C, Growth, and now, just recently pct,


Go figure



Good luck on your article.

Okay, I'm always willing to accept an olive branch.

Yeah, most endos aren't up on ant-e's -- a necessity more with with HCG than many cycles.

 

[solidspine]

I don't use HCG while ON CYCLE, as overuse can cause desensitization of the leydig cells in the testes.

It has never made sense,

Your balls shrink, you take hcg and they come back



You are still on gear, and guess what


Your balls shrink again and when your done, you have to do PCT anyway,


So the question is,


Why mess around in the middle of you cycle?

 

[Anthony Roberts]

I don't use HCG while ON CYCLE, as overuse can cause desensitization of the leydig cells in the testes.

After your Active Recovery, begin PCT:

HCG(Restore testicular mass)
Vitamin E(Interacts with HCG)
Nolvadex(Increase endogenous Testosterone)
Aromasin(Decrease Estrogen, increase testosterone)
Cabergoline(Decrease prolactin)
Proviron(Decrease estrogen, increase Free T, increase well-being and Libido)
7-Keto DHEA(Drastically reduces CORTISOL)
Zinc(Decreases Aromatase activity, increases androgen sesnsitivity)
CellMass(Creatine anabolic support)
SuperPump 250(Creatine/Pre-workout)
Tribex(Herbal forumlation to increase endoegnous testosterone)
LJ-100(Herbal formulation to increase FREE TEST, increases pituitary sensitvity)

If that protocol does not light your fire, you are DEAD.

I'd ditch most of the herbal stuff for MyoGenX, but that's probably a bit of pride talking, because I'm very proud of my own product (and I already have Zinc and E in it + I hate tribulus). BUT obviously I agree with the inclusion of ZInc and E, because I put them in my own PCT product.

I would likely include Unleashed as well (and no, I don't make money from that product), over the other thing that you've got in there to lower SHBG.

The only thing that would concern me with this PCT (other than I would prefer my own product be included with it, for obvious reasons), is that the Cabergoline may lower your prolactin so low that you're succeptible to getting a virus (flu, cold, whatever), since lowering your estrogen will also decrease immune system.

Proviron is fun also...I haven't run that in ages...

 

[tshoot]

It has never made sense,

Your balls shrink, you take hcg and they come back



You are still on gear, and guess what


Your balls shrink again and when your done, you have to do PCT anyway,


So the question is,


Why mess around in the middle of you cycle?

Taking HCG during the cycle kept the little guys from atrophying nearly as much (maybe 10%) as waiting the whole cycle to jumpstart them. With this protocol, I haven't needed to do HCG during PCT (or 10 days in a row prior to PCT) - just jump right into PCT. I have done it both ways and, for me, using it during the cycle has kept me from crashing after the cycle. Might be different for different people - seems to work for me. Plus, I don't like rolling with my lady in bed and having big muscles and raisin nuts.

 

[Ross]

Taking HCG during the cycle kept the little guys from atrophying nearly as much (maybe 10%) as waiting the whole cycle to jumpstart them. With this protocol, I haven't needed to do HCG during PCT (or 10 days in a row prior to PCT) - just jump right into PCT. I have done it both ways and, for me, using it during the cycle has kept me from crashing after the cycle. Might be different for different people - seems to work for me. Plus, I don't like rolling with my lady in bed and having big muscles and raisin nuts.

Yes, you are correct. There is a HUGE genetic component involved.

 

[Primordial Performance]

I'd ditch most of the herbal stuff for MyoGenX, but that's probably a bit of pride talking, because I'm very proud of my own product (and I already have Zinc and E in it + I hate tribulus). BUT obviously I agree with the inclusion of ZInc and E, because I put them in my own PCT product.

I would likely include Unleashed as well (and no, I don't make money from that product), over the other thing that you've got in there to lower SHBG.

The only thing that would concern me with this PCT (other than I would prefer my own product be included with it, for obvious reasons), is that the Cabergoline may lower your prolactin so low that you're succeptible to getting a virus (flu, cold, whatever), since lowering your estrogen will also decrease immune system.

Proviron is fun also...I haven't run that in ages...

Anthony, when you gonna ship me a bottle of the myogenX? I kinda wanna try that stuff.

BTW Ross, be careful with 7-keto DHEA. If you actually take enough to antagonize cortisol it will inhibit test production.

Effects of Transdermal Application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the Levels of Steroid Hormones, Gonadotropins and Lipids in Healthy Men
J. .ULCOVÁ, M. HILL, Z. MA.EK, R. ČE.KA1, A. NOVÁČEK2, R. HAMPL, L. STÁRKA
Institute of Endocrinology, 1Third Department of Internal Medicine, First Faculty of Medicine, Charles University, 2AREKO, Ltd., Prague, Czech Republic

 

[Ross]

I am also a huge fan of DHEA, not only the 7-keto deriv.

DHEA when used ON CYCLE even has benefits. I love it.

 

[The_Chemist]

It would be interesting to see an article discusssing the use of HCG throughout a cycle as appossed to PCT. I've always felt that running hcg and Tamox during a cycle would be benificial.

There will be a good audience for an article like this.

 

[Ross]

I'm down.

Maybe we can formulate a "Dream-Team", featuring all of the greatest minds here at EF...

Ross and Anthony in one article? Aint nuttin but a GANGSTA PARTY...

 

[tshoot]

It would be interesting to see an article discusssing the use of HCG throughout a cycle as appossed to PCT. I've always felt that running hcg and Tamox during a cycle would be benificial.

There will be a good audience for an article like this.

I was always hesitant on taking tamoxifin w/HCG during a cycle when using something like Tren or Deca. I "thought" it could increase the chance of prolactin induced gyno.

 

[Ross]

I was always hesitant on taking tamoxifin w/HCG during a cycle when using something like Tren or Deca. I "thought" it could increase the chance of prolactin induced gyno.

Nolvadex upregulates the Progesterone receptor, so indeed, it does...

 

[njmuscleguy]

I don't use HCG while ON CYCLE, as overuse can cause desensitization of the leydig cells in the testes.

After your Active Recovery, begin PCT:

HCG(Restore testicular mass)
Vitamin E(Interacts with HCG)
Nolvadex(Increase endogenous Testosterone)
Aromasin(Decrease Estrogen, increase testosterone)
Cabergoline(Decrease prolactin)
Proviron(Decrease estrogen, increase Free T, increase well-being and Libido)
7-Keto DHEA(Drastically reduces CORTISOL)
Zinc(Decreases Aromatase activity, increases androgen sesnsitivity)
CellMass(Creatine anabolic support)
SuperPump 250(Creatine/Pre-workout)
Tribex(Herbal forumlation to increase endoegnous testosterone)
LJ-100(Herbal formulation to increase FREE TEST, increases pituitary sensitvity)

If that protocol does not light your fire, you are DEAD.

With a few exceptions, my current PCT is almost exactly the same...
I ran HCG starting on the same day as my last test enth shot (500iu ED for 10 days)

I ran aromasin for 5 days longer than HCG

I didn't use nolva - it doesn't work for me

I've run Proviron during PCT before, it was ok for a temporary fix, but just delayed the inevitable crash - didn't use it this time

I used Selegiline instead of Cabergoline for prolactin

I'm taking ZMA, Tribex Gold, Red Blast / NO X-plode

Dermacrine has DHEA as well as AI's

I have to say, my current PCT has by far been the best one I've done.

 

[Ross]

With a few exceptions, my current PCT is almost exactly the same...
I ran HCG starting on the same day as my last test enth shot (500iu ED for 10 days)

I ran aromasin for 5 days longer than HCG

I didn't use nolva - it doesn't work for me

I've run Proviron during PCT before, it was ok for a temporary fix, but just delayed the inevitable crash - didn't use it this time

I used Selegiline instead of Cabergoline for prolactin

I'm taking ZMA, Tribex Gold, Red Blast / NO X-plode

Dermacrine has DHEA as well as AI's

I have to say, my current PCT has by far been the best one I've done.

Amen BRO!!

That PCT protocol is the result of DILIGENT trial and error.

 

[tshoot]

With a few exceptions, my current PCT is almost exactly the same...
I ran HCG starting on the same day as my last test enth shot (500iu ED for 10 days)

I ran aromasin for 5 days longer than HCG

I didn't use nolva - it doesn't work for me

I've run Proviron during PCT before, it was ok for a temporary fix, but just delayed the inevitable crash - didn't use it this time

I used Selegiline instead of Cabergoline for prolactin

I'm taking ZMA, Tribex Gold, Red Blast / NO X-plode

Dermacrine has DHEA as well as AI's

I have to say, my current PCT has by far been the best one I've done.

njmuscleguy,

What did you cycle look like? Did you run any Deca/NPP/Tren? You said you "used" Selegiline. Does that mean you aren't using it in your PCT now but used it during your cycle or just at the beginning of your PCT? Just trying to understand why you decided to use it and when. Sounds like you have been through a few iterations and found what worked (or is working) for you.

Thanks.

 

[Mrpumped]

This thread turned out to be a wonderful read. I used 500iu of HCG for ten days after my last dose of var. I used var for two weeks adter my last injection to alow the system to clear up. I used Nolva + Vitamin E + HCG +AI. This was my first PCT and I'm still learning. I also took supps like creatine, tribulus, NoXplode, Amplify02. As this was my first PCT I wasn't sure what to look for but my testes did come back and I felt a bit of a crash. I hope to keep learning more from great posts like this so I can get it right for me.

 

[OMEGA]

I thinks Primordial Performances ideas on HCG are interesting

but I just cant shake the tried and true protocol that have used in the past

sorry bro were just going to disagree on this:



once I dialed down PCT here, i just kinda never register other ideas anymore.

assuming long esters used:

1 week after last shot
HCG 2000 ius Every 4th Day with an AI
do this for 3-4 shots

Drop the HCG the continue with
Clomid at 50 mgs a day along with an AI for another 3-4 weeks

Blood Tests after.

 

[Ross]

I thinks Primordial Performances ideas on HCG are interesting

but I just cant shake the tried and true protocol that have used in the past

sorry bro were just going to disagree on this:



once I dialed down PCT here, i just kinda never register other ideas anymore.

assuming long esters used:

1 week after last shot
HCG 2000 ius Every 4th Day with an AI
do this for 3-4 shots

Drop the HCG the continue with
Clomid at 50 mgs a day along with an AI for another 3-4 weeks

Blood Tests after.

Sounds SOLID.

 

[njmuscleguy]

njmuscleguy,

What did you cycle look like? Did you run any Deca/NPP/Tren? You said you "used" Selegiline. Does that mean you aren't using it in your PCT now but used it during your cycle or just at the beginning of your PCT? Just trying to understand why you decided to use it and when. Sounds like you have been through a few iterations and found what worked (or is working) for you.

Thanks.

be happy to give more detail... my last cycle was dbol, test enth, and NPP... about 9 weeks... ran dbol to kickstart and NPP at the end

I have used selegiline for my last few PCT's, including my current one... it's one of those supplements which you can't really say for sure is doing anything, but I dont' have any prolactin or gyno issues as far as I can tell... I think of it as an "insurance policy"... plus it's a nootropic (nootropic), so it can only help

For sure, I've gone through alot of trial and error here... still don't know if this PCT is "the one", but I'm certainly alot closer... I have no major complaints at the moment.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Amen BRO!!

That PCT protocol is the result of DILIGENT trial and error.

ALOT of trial, error... and frustration!

 

[tshoot]

be happy to give more detail... my last cycle was dbol, test enth, and NPP... about 9 weeks... ran dbol to kickstart and NPP at the end

I have used selegiline for my last few PCT's, including my current one... it's one of those supplements which you can't really say for sure is doing anything, but I dont' have any prolactin or gyno issues as far as I can tell... I think of it as an "insurance policy"... plus it's a nootropic (nootropic), so it can only help

For sure, I've gone through alot of trial and error here... still don't know if this PCT is "the one", but I'm certainly alot closer... I have no major complaints at the moment.

Thanks - appreciate the feedback.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Anthony, when you gonna ship me a bottle of the myogenX? I kinda wanna try that stuff.

Gimme a ring today...I have 2 bottles sitting here. I'll ship them to you ASAP.