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Minimum Wage Increase Already Killing Small Businesses

p0ink

New member
New wage boost puts squeeze on teenage workers across Arizona
Employers are cutting back hours, laying off young staffers

Chad Graham
The Arizona Republic
Feb. 10, 2007 12:00 AM

Oh, for the days when Arizona's high school students could roll pizza dough, sweep up sticky floors in theaters or scoop ice cream without worrying about ballot initiatives affecting their earning power.

That's certainly not the case under the state's new minimum-wage law that went into effect last month.

Some Valley employers, especially those in the food industry, say payroll budgets have risen so much that they're cutting hours, instituting hiring freezes and laying off employees.
advertisement


And teens are among the first workers to go.

Companies maintain the new wage was raised to $6.75 per hour from $5.15 per hour to help the breadwinners in working-poor families. Teens typically have other means of support.

Mark Messner, owner of Pepi's Pizza in south Phoenix, estimates he has employed more than 2,000 high school students since 1990. But he plans to lay off three teenage workers and decrease hours worked by others. Of his 25-person workforce, roughly 75 percent are in high school.

"I've had to go to some of my kids and say, 'Look, my payroll just increased 13 percent,' " he said. " 'Sorry, I don't have any hours for you.' "

Messner's monthly cost to train an employee has jumped from $440 to $580 as the turnover rate remains high.

"We go to great lengths to hang on to our high school workers, but there are a lot of kids who come in and get one check in their pocket and feel like they're living large and out the door they go," he said. "We never get our return on investment when that happens."

For years, economists have debated how minimum-wage increases impact the teenage workforce.

The Employment Policies Institute in Washington, which opposed the recent increases, cited 2003 data by Federal Reserve economists showing a 10 percent increase caused a 2 percent to 3 percent decrease in employment.

It also cited comments by noted economist Milton Friedman, who maintained that high teen unemployment rates were largely the result of minimum-wage laws.

"After a wage hike, employers seek to take fewer chances on individuals with little education or experience," one institute researcher told lawmakers in 2004.

Tom Kelly, owner of Mary Coyle Ol' Fashion Ice Cream Parlor in Phoenix, voted for the minimum-wage increase. But he said, "The new law has impacted us quite a bit."

It added about $2,000 per month in expenses. The store, which employs mostly teen workers, has cut back on hours and has not replaced a couple of workers who quit.

Kelly raised the wages of workers who already made above minimum wage to ensure pay scales stayed even. As a result, "we have to be a lot more efficient" and must increase menu prices, he said.

While most of the state's 124,067 workers between the ages of 16 and 19 made well above $5.15 per hour before the change, the new law has created real-life economic opportunities.

Liliana Hernandez brings home noticeably more under the new law. The 18-year-old, who attends Metro Tech High School in Phoenix and works part time at Central High School, is saving the extra money, maybe to put towards buying a used car.

Hernandez said she deserves the raise just like any other Arizona worker even if she still lives with her parents.

"I'm doing the best I can and working hard like everyone else," she said.

In the months leading up to last November's vote, advocates of the new law maintained that it would help Arizona create a "living wage" for some of the poorest workers.

The Economic Policy Institute estimated that 145,000 Arizonans would receive a pay raise. That was how many made $5.15 to $6.74 per hour.

At one press conference, a mother described how she was unable to afford basic school supplies for her son.

Opponents, however, said there was little talk about teenage workers. "Everyone wanted to focus on the other aspects of the minimum-wage campaign," said Michelle Bolton, Arizona state director of the National Federation of Independent Business.

An Employment Policies Institute study determined that 30.1 percent of affected workers in Arizona fell between the ages of 16 and 19.

"Workers affected by the minimum-wage increase are less likely to be supporting a family than the typical Arizona worker," it stated. "For example, 30.4 percent of the workers are living with their parent or parents, while only 7.6 percent of all Arizona workers are in this category."

John Weischedel, a senior at the East Valley Institute of Technology in Mesa, knows he is lucky to be making $8 per hour at an auto dealership and learning technical skills. So are most of his friends who make $9 or more per hour while still attending high school.

After the minimum-wage law went into effect, "a couple of my friends got laid off - they worked in fast food," he said. "They're going to wait until they're out of high school to find other jobs."
 
Even the supporters realize it's going to cost people jobs. It's just such a great liberal wedge issue that it's hard to let it go.

And yeah, conservatives have their wedge issues too.
 
everyone is going to raise prices.

expect food prices to go up even more.

remember to thank anyone with a 'D' after their name come election time.
 
mountain muscle said:
So cut back on foreign aid and put more money back into our own country and workers.

that would involve the further redistribution of wealth. that's communism, brotha.

secondly, i agree we should cut foreign aid (especially to the countries that hate us), but our foreign aid comes with MANY strings attatched, and it gives us more of an angle to further our own agenda within their own borders.
 
p0ink said:
that would involve the further redistribution of wealth. that's communism, brotha.

secondly, i agree we should cut foreign aid (especially to the countries that hate us), but our foreign aid comes with MANY strings attatched, and it gives us more of an angle to further our own agenda within their own borders.

Using tax dollars to aid families in need is communism?
 
mountain muscle said:
Using tax dollars to aid families in need is communism?

yes. that is taking from one (who the government thinks has 'too much') to give to another (who the government thinks deserves it more, even though they didnt earn it).
 
p0ink said:
yes. that is taking from one (who the government thinks has 'too much') to give to another (who the government thinks deserves it more, even though they didnt earn it).

The government must think we all have too much then since we get all get taxed. we do that now in foreign aid. No change then except for money staying in the country instead of abroad.
 
we're crying because this is going to affect the "teenage" workforce?? who, as was said by that article, are lazy pieces of shit anyway that cut out after a paycheck or two. Small business will adapt..........my god, we raise the minimum wage to $6.15, which isn't a livable wage in the slightest.......and now all of a sudden business are cutting back and laying off. If a business can't afford to pay someone a "decent" wage.....it has no business being in business....end of story. This is why I like canada's system......they nationalize the benefits so employers don't have to pay out on them.......they can then easily afford to pay the $15 minimum wage. Yes I realize that taxes are therefore higher in canada......but I still think the guy making $15/hour is still going to come out better than some poor shlepp here making $6.15. A friend of mine in Vancouver told me that mickey dee's is paying out somewhere in the neighborhood of $20 to flip burgers.........unbeleivable!!
 
p0ink said:
that would involve the further redistribution of wealth. that's communism, brotha.

secondly, i agree we should cut foreign aid (especially to the countries that hate us), but our foreign aid comes with MANY strings attatched, and it gives us more of an angle to further our own agenda within their own borders.



I hope the above enlarged text was stated as a negative........because that's what it is. The U.S "furthering it's own agenda" in other countries is precisely why we're where we are right now..........considered to be the biggest pieces of shit on the planet. People are sick of us precisely because we're constantly meddling everywhere. Leave people alone.......if some little shit hole somewhere in the world wants to be communist by it's own volition..........than god dammit leave em alone!!! Fuck
 
In public finance economics you learn that society is no better off than we treat our worst off. That being said, entitlement to wealth redistribution has been proven to give the lower class a disincentive to get a job and work (standard faire in any labor economics class). We need programs that are not socialism in practice, but that work like the earned income tax credit to promote self sufficiency, instead of giving a handout like AFDC.
 
p0ink said:
yes. that is taking from one (who the government thinks has 'too much') to give to another (who the government thinks deserves it more, even though they didnt earn it).

Reassigning tax dollars (that have already been collected) is not communism, bro. Sorry.
 
Wow. One article and the sky is falling already, eh? I'm surprised that you don't take the same stance on greenhouse gases.

Are you just as mad that the repubs lost 4 billion in Iraq?
 
Jimsbbc said:
In public finance economics you learn that society is no better off than we treat our worst off. That being said, entitlement to wealth redistribution has been proven to give the lower class a disincentive to get a job and work (standard faire in any labor economics class). We need programs that are not socialism in practice, but that work like the earned income tax credit to promote self sufficiency, instead of giving a handout like AFDC.

Promoting self-sufficiency becomes a bit sticky when the only job (minimum wage) you can get is unable to allow your self sufficiency while a reliance on social programs benefits you more while unemployed.
 
redsamurai said:
we're crying because this is going to affect the "teenage" workforce?? who, as was said by that article, are lazy pieces of shit anyway that cut out after a paycheck or two.
Rumor has it that those teens will do something called "age". So once they spend their 15-18 years on a couch instead of pressing the "fry" button on the broiler it further instills that mentality into them post-graduation. Everyone should have a shitty "summer job" at least once.

redsamurai said:
Small business will adapt..........my god, we raise the minimum wage to $6.15, which isn't a livable wage in the slightest
So if you really believe that, where is the humanity in setting it at $6.15? Or even $7.50? Or even $12? Join me in proposing a $50/hour miniumum wage. If $6.15 won't hurt, then $50 won't either.

redsamurai said:
A friend of mine in Vancouver told me that mickey dee's is paying out somewhere in the neighborhood of $20 to flip burgers.........unbeleivable!!
That sure is generous of MD's to just take it in the shorts and not make as much profit in Canada... or do they do that? I'm sure a global corporation like MD's is magnanamous and empathetic enough to simply explain to its shareholders that profits may be lower, but that they are helping Canadian society as a whole. That's sure what I'm sure everyone on this board looks for in a stock. That whole dividends and earnings thing is overrated anyway.
 
I start my guys at 9/hour
I have 2 of them
pelosi not running my business for me
 
p0ink said:
New wage boost puts squeeze on teenage workers across Arizona
Employers are cutting back hours, laying off young staffers

Chad Graham
The Arizona Republic
Feb. 10, 2007 12:00 AM

Oh, for the days when Arizona's high school students could roll pizza dough, sweep up sticky floors in theaters or scoop ice cream without worrying about ballot initiatives affecting their earning power.

That's certainly not the case under the state's new minimum-wage law that went into effect last month.

Some Valley employers, especially those in the food industry, say payroll budgets have risen so much that they're cutting hours, instituting hiring freezes and laying off employees.
advertisement


And teens are among the first workers to go.

Companies maintain the new wage was raised to $6.75 per hour from $5.15 per hour to help the breadwinners in working-poor families. Teens typically have other means of support.

Mark Messner, owner of Pepi's Pizza in south Phoenix, estimates he has employed more than 2,000 high school students since 1990. But he plans to lay off three teenage workers and decrease hours worked by others. Of his 25-person workforce, roughly 75 percent are in high school.

"I've had to go to some of my kids and say, 'Look, my payroll just increased 13 percent,' " he said. " 'Sorry, I don't have any hours for you.' "

Messner's monthly cost to train an employee has jumped from $440 to $580 as the turnover rate remains high.

"We go to great lengths to hang on to our high school workers, but there are a lot of kids who come in and get one check in their pocket and feel like they're living large and out the door they go," he said. "We never get our return on investment when that happens."

For years, economists have debated how minimum-wage increases impact the teenage workforce.

The Employment Policies Institute in Washington, which opposed the recent increases, cited 2003 data by Federal Reserve economists showing a 10 percent increase caused a 2 percent to 3 percent decrease in employment.

It also cited comments by noted economist Milton Friedman, who maintained that high teen unemployment rates were largely the result of minimum-wage laws.

"After a wage hike, employers seek to take fewer chances on individuals with little education or experience," one institute researcher told lawmakers in 2004.

Tom Kelly, owner of Mary Coyle Ol' Fashion Ice Cream Parlor in Phoenix, voted for the minimum-wage increase. But he said, "The new law has impacted us quite a bit."

It added about $2,000 per month in expenses. The store, which employs mostly teen workers, has cut back on hours and has not replaced a couple of workers who quit.

Kelly raised the wages of workers who already made above minimum wage to ensure pay scales stayed even. As a result, "we have to be a lot more efficient" and must increase menu prices, he said.

While most of the state's 124,067 workers between the ages of 16 and 19 made well above $5.15 per hour before the change, the new law has created real-life economic opportunities.

Liliana Hernandez brings home noticeably more under the new law. The 18-year-old, who attends Metro Tech High School in Phoenix and works part time at Central High School, is saving the extra money, maybe to put towards buying a used car.

Hernandez said she deserves the raise just like any other Arizona worker even if she still lives with her parents.

"I'm doing the best I can and working hard like everyone else," she said.

In the months leading up to last November's vote, advocates of the new law maintained that it would help Arizona create a "living wage" for some of the poorest workers.

The Economic Policy Institute estimated that 145,000 Arizonans would receive a pay raise. That was how many made $5.15 to $6.74 per hour.

At one press conference, a mother described how she was unable to afford basic school supplies for her son.

Opponents, however, said there was little talk about teenage workers. "Everyone wanted to focus on the other aspects of the minimum-wage campaign," said Michelle Bolton, Arizona state director of the National Federation of Independent Business.

An Employment Policies Institute study determined that 30.1 percent of affected workers in Arizona fell between the ages of 16 and 19.

"Workers affected by the minimum-wage increase are less likely to be supporting a family than the typical Arizona worker," it stated. "For example, 30.4 percent of the workers are living with their parent or parents, while only 7.6 percent of all Arizona workers are in this category."

John Weischedel, a senior at the East Valley Institute of Technology in Mesa, knows he is lucky to be making $8 per hour at an auto dealership and learning technical skills. So are most of his friends who make $9 or more per hour while still attending high school.

After the minimum-wage law went into effect, "a couple of my friends got laid off - they worked in fast food," he said. "They're going to wait until they're out of high school to find other jobs."
I can still get a berzilion dish washer for 5 bucks an hour so i dont give a shit.
 
needtogetas said:
I can still get a berzilion dish washer for 5 bucks an hour so i dont give a shit.
WHAAAAAAT? Are you trying to tell me that minimum wage laws pave the way for illegal undocumented workers to back-fill jobs below that wage???

WTF???

Oh yeah, it's like economics 101. Never mind.
 
mrplunkey said:
WHAAAAAAT? Are you trying to tell me that minimum wage laws pave the way for illegal undocumented workers to back-fill jobs below that wage???

WTF???

Oh yeah, it's like economics 101. Never mind.
yup.they can raise it all they want and i am still going to pay my brazilion 5 bucks an hour.only thing they do by raising it is make more people want to hire illegal.hmm
 
redsamurai said:
I hope the above enlarged text was stated as a negative........because that's what it is. The U.S "furthering it's own agenda" in other countries is precisely why we're where we are right now..........considered to be the biggest pieces of shit on the planet. People are sick of us precisely because we're constantly meddling everywhere. Leave people alone.......if some little shit hole somewhere in the world wants to be communist by it's own volition..........than god dammit leave em alone!!! Fuck
cry me a river
what country was there with the mostest after the tsunami?
hospital ships,helos from carriers etc.
a United States carrier task force is a complete self-providing unit
just what those people needed
buncha bellyachers with short memories
 
needtogetas said:
yup.they can raise it all they want and i am still going to pay my brazilion 5 bucks an hour.only thing they do by raising it is make more people want to hire illegal.hmm
Then maybe we can toughen immigration laws at the same time. Let's set the min wage to $50/hour, but also not let them go to any of our schools, hospitals, or any public place. Let's go with a national ID card and keep them off of buses, trains, restaurants... maybe even implant the card in US citizens so we can tell the legal from illegal workers.

Either that or we could just let market forces set the supply and demand for labor, but that would be too easy. The former suggestion has potential to spawn an entirely-new goverment agency. Then we can create new goverment jobs. But wait... those jobs will have to pay $50/hour too. I wonder if the new goverment agency could hire some illegals as well maybe?
 
4everhung said:
cry me a river
what country was there with the mostest after the tsunami?
hospital ships,helos from carriers etc.
a United States carrier task force is a complete self-providing unit
just what those people needed
buncha bellyachers with short memories

Didn't we get chided by the international community for not giving enough originally?
 
mrplunkey said:
Then maybe we can toughen immigration laws at the same time. Let's set the min wage to $50/hour, but also not let them go to any of our schools, hospitals, or any public place. Let's go with a national ID card and keep them off of buses, trains, restaurants... maybe even implant the card in US citizens so we can tell the legal from illegal workers.

Either that or we could just let market forces set the supply and demand for labor, but that would be too easy. The former suggestion has potential to spawn an entirely-new goverment agency. Then we can create new goverment jobs. But wait... those jobs will have to pay $50/hour too. I wonder if the new goverment agency could hire some illegals as well maybe?
I and almost every one wishes they would do something about all these dame fucking immigrants coming into the us.I dont blam them for wanting to be here but they are killing it for the people that are here legally.but lets face it our government is never going to stop it.they dont want to.hell its pretty dame fucking simple if they wanted to stop it.just billed a better wall with guard post that have guards that will kill any one that gets near the wall.pretty fucking simple.kill them if they come near the wall.they dont want to stop it.
 
484deuw.jpg
 
if I was c00p you know what I'd do
put pelosis head behind those boobs
 
gjohnson5 said:
The idea that using tax dollars in any way shape or form to support american families is communism is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Name 1 country that does not do this???
Technically ,taking from the rich and giving to the poor is socialism, but for the purposes of the topic and this thread, its not communism. Communism tends to mean more of a total economic and political way of life than a few redistributions in a vastly capitalism dominated society such as ours.
 
All we need now is to take away all those corporate tax breaks the gov't gives away and then we'll really have something...

superdave said:
Technically ,taking from the rich and giving to the poor is socialism, but for the purposes of the topic and this thread, its not communism. Communism tends to mean more of a total economic and political way of life than a few redistributions in a vastly capitalism dominated society such as ours.
 
gjohnson5 said:
The idea that using tax dollars in any way shape or form to support american families is communism is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Name 1 country that does not do this???

i can name many countries that do it freely.

china, cuba, north korea.

face it, you are using the government to steal money from the producers and from those who earn it, so they can buy votes from those who are too stupid and irresponsible to fend for themselves.

why should i be held responsible for someone else's bad decisions and/or failure to use birth control.

not my problem.
 
gjohnson5 said:
All we need now is to take away all those corporate tax breaks the gov't gives away and then we'll really have something...
Follow the money. No corporate tax breaks=lower stock performance of those companies. Lower stock performance=unhappy stockowners. Unhappy stockowners=unhappy voters come election time.
Also no more campaign contributions to the politicians who take away the tax breaks from the corps that benefit.
 
gjohnson5 said:
So you get my point....
Politicians are motivated by money they receive, not necessarily the good will they might feel for taking money from rich people and giving it to poorer people
 
superdave said:
Follow the money. No corporate tax breaks=lower stock performance of those companies. Lower stock performance=unhappy stockowners. Unhappy stockowners=unhappy voters come election time.
Also no more campaign contributions to the politicians who take away the tax breaks from the corps that benefit.

um...how about having to support the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of workers who have long since retired?

oh, the joy of unions....

not to mention, ford doesnt put out anything innovative or new. if they get destroyed in the free market, so be it.
 
gjohnson5 said:
One thing I do support is a bailout of Ford. The last thing we need is China to buy Ford. Americans should build thier own cars in American assembly plants and the gov't should use tax dollars to support American families...

I will only buy a Ford, GM or Chrysler
i like chevy.its the last one left i will still buy.
 
p0ink said:
um...how about having to support the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of workers who have long since retired?

oh, the joy of unions....

not to mention, ford doesnt put out anything innovative or new. if they get destroyed in the free market, so be it.
Same difference. Gov't gives guys like ford tax breaks to support their huge and bloated pension and benefits programs. If all those retirees and current workers had to take cuts due to a congressman taking away the tax breaks there would be hell to pay for that congressman.
 
I'm a democrat. I think some redistribution of wealth is a good thing. At a certain point, I agree that it takes away the from the so called "American Dream" and negates creativity and entrepreneurship.

Anyway I think the difference between us and alot of third world countries is things like social security , medicare, unemployment, etc

superdave said:
Politicians are motivated by money they receive, not necessarily the good will they might feel for taking money from rich people and giving it to poorer people
 
gjohnson5 said:
I'm a democrat. I think some redistribution of wealth is a good thing. At a certain point, I agree that it takes away the from the so called "American Dream" and negates creativity and entrepreneurship.

Anyway I think the difference between us and alot of third world countries is things like social security , medicare, unemployment, etc
There is always a balance in a democracy and the internal struggle in a place like the USA involves how much to take and how much to redistribute. Im generally Republican but also a grad student who is leveraged by student loans. When the dems announced an interest rate reduction for student loans the big lending corps bitched and moaned and I can see their valid complaints but seeing as how I am the beneficiary of this policy, I can see both sides of the issue.
 
gjohnson5 said:
I'm a democrat. I think some redistribution of wealth is a good thing. At a certain point, I agree that it takes away the from the so called "American Dream" and negates creativity and entrepreneurship.

Anyway I think the difference between us and alot of third world countries is things like social security , medicare, unemployment, etc
come stay with me and my business for a week
I'll pay for it
 
michigan is a devastated state economically. i see so many abandoned buildings, open store fronts, crumbling houses. and yet they still continue building strip malls, with nail salons and check cashing & fly by night quickie insurance stores. fucking priorities.....
 
I like the way Pelosi exempted American Samoa from the new minimum wage hike. the two largest employrs there are Starkist(parent company Del Monte hq is in san francisco, her district) and Chicken of the Sea , hq calif. . they employ 75% of the islands population. don't the american samoans deserve an increase too. wonder how much they contributed to her campaign.
 
I challenged gjohnson to come to my business
on my expense
report muthafucker
 
I'm probably going to have to pay $50,000 just in income taxes this year...
If anyone has a gripe about redistribution of wealth , it's me.

superdave said:
There is always a balance in a democracy and the internal struggle in a place like the USA involves how much to take and how much to redistribute. Im generally Republican but also a grad student who is leveraged by student loans. When the dems announced an interest rate reduction for student loans the big lending corps bitched and moaned and I can see their valid complaints but seeing as how I am the beneficiary of this policy, I can see both sides of the issue.
 
gjohnson5 said:
I'm probably going to have to pay $50,000 just in income taxes this year...
If anyone has a gripe about redistribution of wealth , it's me.
You are considered rich by the politicians (dem) standards, easily. What do you do to owe so much in taxes, if I may ask?
 
lol...every time minimum wage is raised, the chicken littles come out to tell us the sky is falling. :rolleyes:
 
heatherrae said:
lol...every time minimum wage is raised, the chicken littles come out to tell us the sky is falling. :rolleyes:
The sky may not be falling but its still taught to every freshman in economics101. Raise the price of labor and demand for said labor drops.
 
superdave said:
The sky may not be falling but its still taught to every freshman in economics101. Raise the price of labor and demand for said labor drops.
Or prices rise to compensate for the increased cost.
 
Raising the Minimum wage is not about minimum wage workers. It is a concession to the Labor Unions who have contracts tying thier wages to the Federal minimum wage.
 
redguru said:
Raising the Minimum wage is not about minimum wage workers. It is a concession to the Labor Unions who have contracts tying thier wages to the Federal minimum wage.
Another hidden agenda that people fail to see beneath all the compassionate rhetoric. Good call bruh.
 
mountain muscle said:
Promoting self-sufficiency becomes a bit sticky when the only job (minimum wage) you can get is unable to allow your self sufficiency while a reliance on social programs benefits you more while unemployed.


Then you don't understand how the earned income tax credit works. They at least have to keep a job to qualify for it and we pay them a living wage to keep a job. Economists like this program because we have people that have otherwise exited the labor market sucking the blood out of the middle class in welfare payments who are now working. To the extent we are adding productive laborers into the labor market, GDP/GDY increases. That is a real increase in the economic output of the nation, an increase in the standard living of everyone across the board, and an increase in our quality of life for all citizens. The argument is that if they hold jobs, they will gain skills, move up, realize more income, and wean themselves off the tax credit. They are now bona fide, economically productive, tax paying citizens who are contributing to the wealth of our nation.
 
Jimsbbc said:
Then you don't understand how the earned income tax credit works. They at least have to keep a job to qualify for it and we pay them a living wage to keep a job. Economists like this program because we have people that have otherwise exited the labor market sucking the blood out of the middle class in welfare payments who are now working. To the extent we are adding productive laborers into the labor market, GDP/GDY increases. That is a real increase in the economic output of the nation, an increase in the standard living of everyone across the board, and an increase in our quality of life for all citizens. The argument is that if they hold jobs, they will gain skills, move up, realize more income, and wean themselves off the tax credit. They are now bona fide, economically productive, tax paying citizens who are contributing to the wealth of our nation.

You're right I don't, doesn't apply to me. Seems to be working well though.
 
how many of you would endeavor to complete 20 sets in the gym
when 8 of them are taken from you
capt kangaroo reporting for duty
 
mrplunkey said:
Rumor has it that those teens will do something called "age". So once they spend their 15-18 years on a couch instead of pressing the "fry" button on the broiler it further instills that mentality into them post-graduation. Everyone should have a shitty "summer job" at least once.


If they're parents made livable wages they could stay home and study. Now, don't get me wrong......I think it's good for kids to work. I started working when I was 15. But something doesn't jell here......if employers have to cut back on hours......that would fit for most teenage workers who can't work full time anyway....??????

So if you really believe that, where is the humanity in setting it at $6.15? Or even $7.50? Or even $12? Join me in proposing a $50/hour miniumum wage. If $6.15 won't hurt, then $50 won't either.


you should act on broadway....cause you ham it up every chance you get. There's this thing called the minimum standard of living......and for the privilege to do business here in the U.S.....you should pay a man an honest days' wage. Which means he doesn't have to sell drugs on the side to make ends meet. $50/hour ??? Are you even coherent? were you drinking tonight?? hyperbole......nothing less.........and completely intellect free!


That sure is generous of MD's to just take it in the shorts and not make as much profit in Canada... or do they do that? I'm sure a global corporation like MD's is magnanamous and empathetic enough to simply explain to its shareholders that profits may be lower, but that they are helping Canadian society as a whole. That's sure what I'm sure everyone on this board looks for in a stock. That whole dividends and earnings thing is overrated anyway.


They're still making money......and lot's of it. They don't have to pay benefits....did you catch that?? That's why they can pay that amount. They're actually willing to pay $5 over the minimum wage BECAUSE THEY CAN!! And because at that wage, they can expect a higher level of proffessionalism from their employees. I'll bet my ass that the McDonalds Work force in Canada acts alot differently than here in the States. I can't blame someone who made $5/hour to not take their work seriously.
 
redsamurai said:
They're still making money......and lot's of it. They don't have to pay benefits....did you catch that?? That's why they can pay that amount. They're actually willing to pay $5 over the minimum wage BECAUSE THEY CAN!! And because at that wage, they can expect a higher level of proffessionalism from their employees. I'll bet my ass that the McDonalds Work force in Canada acts alot differently than here in the States. I can't blame someone who made $5/hour to not take their work seriously.
dweeb
my employees like me
legislate that
 
redsamurai said:
yeah....tell em they're going down to $4/hour, and they'll like it!!!

see how much they like you then.
I don't play that game
my guys are well paid
once in awhile I go up to their shed and yell at them about smoking pot and playing cards etc.
it's a joke
my guys get it done
you earn the respect of your employees and treat them well
that's how shit get's done right
I don't need nancy in my business
 
redguru said:
Raising the Minimum wage is not about minimum wage workers. It is a concession to the Labor Unions who have contracts tying thier wages to the Federal minimum wage.
Good point, Labor Unions contribute awhole lotta of cash to the dem. party. .......as do the trial lawyers. when they tell you they are the compassionate party and only care about the downtrodden i want to puke.
 
ole farte' said:
Good point, Labor Unions contribute awhole lotta of cash to the dem. party. .......as do the trial lawyers. when they tell you they are the compassionate party and only care about the downtrodden i want to puke.
plenty of puking to go around
in the mean time between time
this 20% of us fuels the whole country
while they're typing out their crap
I'm working
 
you know what it's like to have a 150 sets of eyes on you cause shit isn't going right
and it's out of my hands
for 40 seconds and then I make my move to correct
 
fuckin gomer pyle and buckfuckingwheat
they sent me for my 4pm funeral
sargeants too
good thing those two aren't in Iraq
 
I'm sorry , wages need to appreciate somewhat with tax increases
I agree that noone is making a living off of a minimum wage, but a wage increase can offset costs such as sales tax hikes and oil price increases.

redguru said:
Raising the Minimum wage is not about minimum wage workers. It is a concession to the Labor Unions who have contracts tying thier wages to the Federal minimum wage.
 
why don't you tax my concern for getting it right
I was fucking steaming inside myself because these two army fucks were
fucking it up bad
and I have to judge it
I was free to make a play on the taps fiasco
but I absolutely can't interfere and correct 2 army guys on a fucked up flag folding
fuck.fuck.fuck
I was so fucking pissed at these two
and I had to hide it
 
the little 5 year old boy left the parlor crying
he sat down with his head in his hands
his granddad was dead

and these army fucks fuck up
oh shit I was so pissed
 
4everhung said:
why don't you tax my concern for getting it right
I was fucking steaming inside myself because these two army fucks were
fucking it up bad
and I have to judge it
I was free to make a play on the taps fiasco
but I absolutely can't interfere and correct 2 army guys on a fucked up flag folding
fuck.fuck.fuck
I was so fucking pissed at these two
and I had to hide it

Their CO can and should here about this.
 
I don't believe teenagers living at home will be part of labor unions , do any of you???

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_86345.asp

A state legislator carrying the banner for an increase in the minimum wage recently said, “There’s nobody that can live on $5.15 an hour.” In truth, very few Tennesseans actually have to live on a wage of $5.15 an hour. Only 1.5% of the state’s workforce—approximately 40,000 workers—is employed at minimum wage levels. Furthermore, the majority of Tennessee’s minimum wage earners are either teenagers living at home and working for weekend pocket money or married individuals working part-time to supplement their spouse’s income.
 
The amount paid in a contract is an agreement between an employer and the union. This can be renegotiated, so I don't believe a minimum wage increase means that the multiplier of the minimum wage that a union gets will remain constant...

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_86345.asp

Tennessee’s flagging labor unions have two carefully concealed motives for increasing the minimum wage. First, unions commonly index their own wages to minimum wage rates. The pay of a union worker is often a multiplier of the minimum wage—with hourly wages set at four, six, even 10 times the minimum wage. This means that a $1 an hour increase in the minimum wage would cost businesses hundreds more a week for each union employee, leading to an increase in the price of everything from cars and houses to monthly utility bills. Second, union lobbyists know that an increased minimum wage expands the might of unions because of contractual obligations and a reduction in non-union workers.
 
in my cemetery we have air force honor guards
I'll go check on them and size up the six
coupla weak looking girls etc.
I'll suggest to them to put the 2 girls as middle pallbearers on each side
one time I had a real heavy guy
I told them and even pointed out the two pallbearers I wanted to be at the front
they sure outthought me
even told me off about it
mentioning something in their figuring about weight
oh fuck I have to bite my tongue
you fucks this is what I do,don't question me
sure enough they didn't heed me and they placed the 2 chicks at the front of the casket
and they couldn't carry the load
dumped it and dropped one of the 3 supporting bars into the vault
of course I'm there and made them keep their cool and moved the middle support bar forward
got it done with 2
 
when you take that fucked up flag folding and get the flag from the daughter
and tell her what your'e going to do
get the guy in the family in decorated air force uniform
and do it right
bitch at me
 
The irony that "mean-spirited" conservatives are fighting to keep wages subject to market forces is incredible.

We live in an age where jobs are shipped overseas constantly and the low-end jobs that remain are being back-filled by illegals. To not make the connection between that an an inflationary labor market is just mind-numbing.
 
gjohnson5 said:
All we need now is to take away all those corporate tax breaks the gov't gives away and then we'll really have something...

then don't bitch when these companies open up shop in mexico.
corporate tax cut is an incentive
 
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Gambino said:
then don't bitch when these companies open up shop mexico.
corporate tax cut is an incentive
Weird how the anti-business crowd yells the loudest when a business relocates outside the US... Perhaps they should make up their minds whether they like businesses or not and go from there.
 
mrplunkey said:
Weird how the anti-business crowd yells the loudest when a business relocates outside the US... Perhaps they should make up their minds whether they like businesses or not and go from there.

And the corp tax incentive more than pays for itself by employing Americans who in turn pump their loot back into the economy by buying houses, cars, etc.
Econ 101 level shit
you can't have it both ways
 
mrplunkey said:
Weird how the anti-business crowd yells the loudest when a business relocates outside the US... Perhaps they should make up their minds whether they like businesses or not and go from there.

If liberals had any common sense they wouldn't be liberals to begin with.
 
mrplunkey said:
The irony that "mean-spirited" conservatives are fighting to keep wages subject to market forces is incredible.

We live in an age where jobs are shipped overseas constantly and the low-end jobs that remain are being back-filled by illegals. To not make the connection between that an an inflationary labor market is just mind-numbing.


those jobs would go overseas anyways.........they can pay a chinese man 10 cents a day to make shoes. Unfortunately, the free market at times can be very corrosive to the infrastructure of a country. Jobs will come back here to the states when the free market has exploited every last third world country there is and standards of living goes up in all those countries. Then, when there's practically no difference in wages......they'll come back. That's the free market forces for you. I have no problem with a business that isn't getting the job done right, to go overseas so the low labor wage can make up for it's executive incompetence.......but they should be subjected to roughly the same tarriffs that any overseas company has to deal with. And the problem of illegals could be handled very succinctly.......if you hire an illegal, just hope you don't get caught doing so......because you'll be shut down or worse.

Plunkey, why do you think we have such a high crime rate in the U.S??
 
redsamurai said:
Plunkey, why do you think we have such a high crime rate in the U.S??
Now *that* is an argument... Let's be held hostage by the criminal class.

Poverty doesn't cause crime -- scumbags who are willing to break the law cause crime. And those scumbags come from every socioeconimic class.

And here's your logic working for you: I bet a crack dealer can make at least $200/hour selling drugs in a busy neighborhood. So I guess there is no point in setting a minimum wage unless its going to be $200/hour or more since people would just go sell drugs anyway.
 
I remember just starting out, working for min wage and going to school at night and supporting myself. Well, I say supporting myself but in truth I had to have a roommate (which I hated) and I barely ate half the time because I couldn't afford to. It is really impossible for one to support themselves completely independant on min wage. Even after I got married and had a baby I had to work to supplement my husband's pay but afer you took out daycare I wasn't much help. Then when me and hubby split I went to go for state assistance (yes, I felt I had to and damnit I had paid into taxes all this time) and I was turned down because I had a car with a note!!!!!! A small note mind you but I remember being told to sell my car and buy food......what kinda bullshit is that??? I have seen women in the stores pulling up in cadilac's and buying steaks and shit with food stamps....how does that happen?
Well, I think I am just rambling and got off subject.
It is a tuff call to make, yes it hurts small businesses but so are the Wal-marts and Targets---and they can afford a bump in min wage. Either way they are hurting but something had to be done.....You try living on the 6.15 an hour
 
first off, don't try to give any analysis of the "hustlers life".....it's obvious you haven't been privy to it.....which isn't necessarily a bad thing.......but it leaves you bereft of even the slightest understanding for that life. Yes, drug dealers "can" make alot of money........but it ain't steady. It's a cutthroat world that most of em could and would do without. Only the hardest of the hardcore actually enjoy that life........most do it cause they got nothing else. If alot of these guys could make a livable wage.....you'd better beleive they'd give up.....at least selling the hardcore drugs. So yes my friend, without question poverty causes crime........it's frightening that there are people left in this world that have been in the tower too long and don't realize this.




mrplunkey said:
Now *that* is an argument... Let's be held hostage by the criminal class.

Poverty doesn't cause crime -- scumbags who are willing to break the law cause crime. And those scumbags come from every socioeconimic class.

And here's your logic working for you: I bet a crack dealer can make at least $200/hour selling drugs in a busy neighborhood. So I guess there is no point in setting a minimum wage unless its going to be $200/hour or more since people would just go sell drugs anyway.
 
redsamurai said:
first off, don't try to give any analysis of the "hustlers life".....it's obvious you haven't been privy to it.....which isn't necessarily a bad thing.......but it leaves you bereft of even the slightest understanding for that life. Yes, drug dealers "can" make alot of money........but it ain't steady. It's a cutthroat world that most of em could and would do without. Only the hardest of the hardcore actually enjoy that life........most do it cause they got nothing else. If alot of these guys could make a livable wage.....you'd better beleive they'd give up.....at least selling the hardcore drugs. So yes my friend, without question poverty causes crime........it's frightening that there are people left in this world that have been in the tower too long and don't realize this.
If poverty causes crime then why was the US crime rate relatively unchanged during the Great Depression.
 
superdave said:
If poverty causes crime then why was the US crime rate relatively unchanged during the Great Depression.
because Lyndon Johnson hadn't started his great society program yet(massive welfare and redistribution of wealth)
 
redsamurai said:
first off, don't try to give any analysis of the "hustlers life".....it's obvious you haven't been privy to it.....which isn't necessarily a bad thing.......but it leaves you bereft of even the slightest understanding for that life. Yes, drug dealers "can" make alot of money........but it ain't steady. It's a cutthroat world that most of em could and would do without. Only the hardest of the hardcore actually enjoy that life........most do it cause they got nothing else. If alot of these guys could make a livable wage.....you'd better beleive they'd give up.....at least selling the hardcore drugs. So yes my friend, without question poverty causes crime........it's frightening that there are people left in this world that have been in the tower too long and don't realize this.
Are you a drug dealer or something? ;)
 
mrplunkey said:
Poverty doesn't cause crime -- scumbags who are willing to break the law cause crime. And those scumbags come from every socioeconimic class.

True. There are indirect connections between poverty and crime but it's not hard to show that government intervention into the economy to try to fight poverty make the problem worse.
 
samoth said:
With the constant devaluation of the american dollar, isn't it only natural to raise the bottom-tier wage?

:cow:
Why? Wouldn't the devaluation further depress the bottom as their buying power would decrease?
 
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