MIKE MENTZER TRAINing????

[tiger88]

the famous mike menzter training

ok i dont do any bodybuilding things during the season and i was wondering what is his training all about? i read that he just does ONE SET per muscle group? the set is too total failure

i didnt read the whole article it was an old muscle mag collection...


any one know about this training?

thanks for reading my post

 

[IronLion]

The common view on his training is that it sucked....too much intensity for most....he had good theries but none of them really panned out. If you use enough gear I am sure it will work for ya....

 

[tiger88]

i dont feel like buying his book, can u give me an idea what is like??? sounds odd.....

 

[guldukat]

i dont feel like buying his book, can u give me an idea what is like??? sounds odd.....

What part strikes you as so odd?

The one set thing is hardly unique. Doggcrappers do a single working set of most exercises per bodypart. We'll rest-pause after hitting failure, but it's still really one long set. Mentzer advocated post-failure intensity techniques, too.

Of course, you have to remember, the one set refers to a working set. DC guys warm up however they see fit, and Heavy Duty trainers did the same.

I was actually friends with Michael (RIP Mike). It pains me to say it, but, yes, his ideas became erratic. He was convinced that ever decreasing frequency is the solution to avoid overtraining, and would have you training each bodypart as infrequently as once a month in some cases!

It's certainly fair to argue the merits or lack thereof to his training systems, but don't think less of the man because he made mistakes. He had a far rougher time than most realize, and it's difficult to fully recover from as much.

Anyway, some of his routines certainly work. They worked well for me when I was about 15-16. It's not something one can really follow for many months at a time, however; some kind of periodization would've been nice, because it did stress the dogshit out of the CNS.

All else I can say is that Heavy Duty is really just a less extreme version of what Trevor Smith advocates. Big Trev might take issue with that, but his routine is VERY much like the workouts outlined in Mentzer's '93 _Heavy Duty_.

So, take a look at Trevor's stuff, take away some of the drop sets and post-failure stuff, and you've got something a lot like HD.

I think C3Bodybuilding, a member here who was looking to hit 300 lbs. by the end of the year, still trains in a Heavy Duty style. Maybe he'll take over from here

 

[MsBeverlyHills]

traditional "HIT" is basically performing one set per exercise to failure, 2-3 exercises per muscle group, 2-3 times a wk.

guys still doing HIT usually combine it w/other multi-set training. also-- HIT works really great if you have limited amount of training time.

 

[tiger88]

thanx everyone for responses...help is always welcome

 

[guldukat]

thanx everyone for responses...help is always welcome

With a beauty like that in your avatar, how can I resist?

Seriously, HD can be okay, but you'd want to stick to the earliest versions. *Or*, you could go with Mike's so-called "Consolidation Routine," which looked something like this:

Day 1
Incline press
Pulldown
Squat

Day 2
Deadlift
Military
Calves

However, rather than do it super infrequently as Mike suggested, simply do it really often. Trying it on a 1 on, 1 off schedule is probably a decent starting place.

You'd want to tweak it further, no doubt--doing squats, rows and dips in one session might be a bit much--and could probably add some abs and arms in the mix. I'd also have at least one alternate exercise for each movement, and rotate them each time you trained.

Day 1
Dip
Row
Leg Press

Day 2
Shrugs
? Delt exercise of choice
Different calf exercise

You could switch all of this around as you saw fit. You could even work it into a 2 on, 1 off program, though doing squats AND deads on consecutive days is probably not the best idea That might also get real tricky with shoulders and tris.

Still, if you were doing only one working set, maybe pushing it to 90% of failure or so, you should be able to recover for some time. I bet it'd take at least a month for overtraining to start setting in, if not longer. Being able to hit everything twice a week is certainly a plus, too.

 

[tiger88]

karma to you thanx bro

 

[guldukat]

karma to you thanx bro

You are very, very welcome my man

Best to you and that gorgeous gal!

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Guld hit the nail on the head. If theres anyone to take training advice from, it's him. You should read some of his posts, he reallys gives 110% to training.

It is true that Mike had his fair share of problems. I hate to see people bash him, because he really did make a difference in bodybuilding. He was a great man, and was always willing to help others. He could come off as a bit off the wall at times, but that was just how he was.

As Guld mentioned, the best form of HD, is the original. In the late 80s, and 90s, Mike went too far. Working each body part 1-2 times a month! I think where Mike failed, Dorian, and even DC succeeded. With such low volume, you could work each body part at the min once every 6-7 days, and even 2-3x a week (ala DC).

I loved DC ideas. When I followed his program, I made great gains, quickly. But sadly, I couldn't tolerate the frequency. I'm the type of person who can get sick just being in the same room with someone who has a mild cold.

I started reading more about Mike, and came across Iron Addict, and our very own Realgains. IA and DC share training sections on a few boards. I decided I would try and experiment on what I could, and could not tolerate. I found that using a lot of DC, IA, Mikes and Realgains idea's, I was able to come up with something that fit me perfectly. I suggest that perhaps you do the same. Theres lots of GREAT programs out there. DC, HST, Realgains post on the women's board, the original Heavy Duty book (you can get that one at Mikementzer.com), etc. Look them over, and see if you like them.

Also, don't be scared of the one set per body part, or per exercise. If you want high frequency, I would follow something like DC or HST to a t, but if you can't handle that, and DC says there are many that can't, try working everything once every 6-7 days. If you do that, you can certainly do a bit more volume. In Mike's Olympia days, he would do 4-6 sets for large parts (remember this was at a time when others were doing 20-25 sets per part, even biceps!).

Good luck, and I hope I was of some help.

 

[tiger88]

Guld hit the nail on the head. If theres anyone to take training advice from, it's him. You should read some of his posts, he reallys gives 110% to training.

It is true that Mike had his fair share of problems. I hate to see people bash him, because he really did make a difference in bodybuilding. He was a great man, and was always willing to help others. He could come off as a bit off the wall at times, but that was just how he was.

As Guld mentioned, the best form of HD, is the original. In the late 80s, and 90s, Mike went too far. Working each body part 1-2 times a month! I think where Mike failed, Dorian, and even DC succeeded. With such low volume, you could work each body part at the min once every 6-7 days, and even 2-3x a week (ala DC).

I loved DC ideas. When I followed his program, I made great gains, quickly. But sadly, I couldn't tolerate the frequency. I'm the type of person who can get sick just being in the same room with someone who has a mild cold.

I started reading more about Mike, and came across Iron Addict, and our very own Realgains. IA and DC share training sections on a few boards. I decided I would try and experiment on what I could, and could not tolerate. I found that using a lot of DC, IA, Mikes and Realgains idea's, I was able to come up with something that fit me perfectly. I suggest that perhaps you do the same. Theres lots of GREAT programs out there. DC, HST, Realgains post on the women's board, the original Heavy Duty book (you can get that one at Mikementzer.com), etc. Look them over, and see if you like them.

Also, don't be scared of the one set per body part, or per exercise. If you want high frequency, I would follow something like DC or HST to a t, but if you can't handle that, and DC says there are many that can't, try working everything once every 6-7 days. If you do that, you can certainly do a bit more volume. In Mike's Olympia days, he would do 4-6 sets for large parts (remember this was at a time when others were doing 20-25 sets per part, even biceps!).



thanx karma to you big man


what would a chest day look for you using this method of training??

Good luck, and I hope I was of some help.

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Right now, since I am currently on, this is a typical chest day for me: Incline press 1 work set, weighted dips 1 work set. I sometimes might preexhuast using a fly motion, or add one set of flyes after those two movements. I use rest pause, static holds, etc. My main focus has always been on adding more weight to the bar, or more reps each week.

I dropped flat press a long time ago. It didn't do a thing for my chest. I started with a flat press of 60lbs. After 3 years of hard work, it was up to 315, and still a HORRIBLE chest. 315 isn't a lot of weight, but considering it was going from 60lb press, thats a big increase. Once I focused on adding weight to dips, and doing a low incline first, boom, my chest took off. But that might not work best for you.

Any help you need putting together a low volume routine, feel free to ask. I aim to hit each body part once every 5-7 days, depending on how I feel.

 

[Shark01]

The thing about HIT training in general, is that there are several different variations, the most famous being:

Arthur Jones
Mentzer
Yates
Darden
McRoberts
Hutchins

About the ONLY common thread I've found is that they advocate training to failure. The number of sets, frequency, reps etc all vary. I personally follow more along the lines of Yates, 2 sets per failure per exercise, 4-6 sets per bodypart (he said he increased that some once he got on the juice) with minimal warmup (3 partial rep sets per workout on the 1st bodypart only.....then max weight the rest of the way).

Mentzers philosophy did change towards the end, but remember he always advocated pre-exhaustion so technically you did two sets to concentric failure in a row, which is VERY taxing.

Instead of buying one of his books, I suggest you get his HIT video, eerily recorded less than 24 hrs before his death (he and Ray were in BAD shape). But it is a good video.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Guld is right on. Yes all of these HIT advocates preached training to "failure", but the idea is ludicrous. Muscle failure as we know it is basically neural failure. They always preached that unless you push a muscle to its limits (which the nervous system will never allow you to do), then one cannot achieve optimal growth. This training idea pushes the nervous system to its limits but not the muscle. Training to failure is no big deal, I've done it on 90% of the sets I've done in my life. HIT is not the most scientific method of training, and a great deal of research shows that low frequincy training is NOT optimal for intermediate or advanced atheletes.

As a ball player, I strongly recomend that you avoid this system. It will compromise you stamina and have a negative effect on your performance in the later part of the game. The idea that I think the HIT advocates do have correct, for building mass at least, is the lower volume per workout approach. One does not need many sets to stimuate growth, and by keeping volume in check, one can stimuate growth, recover faster, grow and train again much sooner. Again, this is NOT what a football player should be doing.

 

[Atomic Punk]

I've used single-set, multiple exercise training principles several times over the years, and have found a couple of things to be true:

1. It is only effective for certain muscle groups--mainly quads.

2. It is only beneficial as a switch, and definitely should not be used as a base in anyones routine.

I used to do the following routine with a friend when we were pressed for time, and just wanted to hit it & be done wit it, as it were.

Quads:

Start with Leg Extensions: Using the whole stack, and whatever additional weight is needed, I would go to failure, which was usually ten reps, then Eddie(my training partner) would help me force 3 reps, then three negatives. I would get up off of the Extensions machine, and would barely be able to maintain my balance. Then immediately, we'd move to the next exercise which was:

Leg Press: 6 reps would be failure, then three forced, then 3 negatives. Mind you, by this time(even though only 2 sets have been performed), if you are putting forth proper effort, you are ready to fucking pass out. Then on to the next exercise:

Squats: At the time I was doing this routine, I was squatting well over 500 pounds. I can remember being able to do #405 for 10 reps on a straight set day, but for this rotuine I would only use #225. Trying not to pass out, I would simply do as many reps as I could get myself, then have Ed help me with 3 reps, then 3 negs, just like the first two lifts.

Routine completed.

This routine lasts about 5 minutes. Done correctly, with the poroper intensity, it will be the longest 5 minutes of your life, and you will probably have to concentrate on not losing consciousness througout the routine, and even moreso afterwards. You be be so sore the next day, that you will want to call and have an escalator installed in your house. It is a great shocker, a great switch, but sucks as a base routine. I know guys who used to try this same routine for every muscle group, and thought it a waste quite frankly. You need to be able to start with an isolation exercise(like Leg Extensions), then move to another where additional muscles are added to help the target muscle work harder(Leg Press), then onto yet another where even more groups help the target work(Squats--low back is added). Other than Chest, there aren't any other muscles that you can add additional muscles on each exercise to make the target muscle work harder(imo). Maybe one set, but not for all 3. For that reason, I always found this type of training to be beneficial for Quads only. Great if you are coming in to the gym with no time to spare. I doubt I could muster the inner strength needed to do this rotuine today though. You really have to be hardcore. To do just one set to failure, then 3 forced, then 3 negs is tough enough, but to do 3, then 3 all in a row??? That takes balls, and a tone of desire. I still got the balls, but not that much desire, quite frankly. Not after 17 years.

Anyhow, if you have what I don't, give it a try one time as a switch. You will need a partner to do it correctly however.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

HIT is not the most scientific method of training, and a great deal of research shows that low frequincy training is NOT optimal for intermediate or advanced atheletes.

If one is in a phase of negative only training, should they still train frequently?

 

[Deleted member 33117]

If one is in a phase of negative only training, should they still train frequently?

One should not be a phase of negative only training, when in pursuit of optimal gains. Why would anyone want to do negative only training?

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

I've read Arthur Jones thought negative only training is the most productive way for a bodybuilder to train. Might be true, might not be, but I'm going to try phasing it in.

 

[Jacob Creutzfeldt]

What I read from Mentzer and the way I understand his theory is that you must look at exercise as a dose/response relationship. Volume+intensity is the dose and adaptation or hypertrophy the resposnse. All oher points are derived from this and most people get fixated on the derivatives such as Mentzer prescribing only 1 set per exercise, when he is really suggesting that you start the 'dose' at a single set as that is the lowest amount of sets one can perform. To promote maximum response one needs to factor in time for the response to occur. Training again before completion of the response leads to overtrainning or overstress syndrome in which negative responses occur such as overuse atrophy. Particulars such as negatives and forced reps increase the intensity as a stimulus for greater response, but conversely require more time for the greater response to manifest ie. the need for more recouperation time.

 

[casualbb]

What I read from Mentzer and the way I understand his theory is that you must look at exercise as a dose/response relationship. Volume+intensity is the dose and adaptation or hypertrophy the resposnse.

The problem is, while that may seem plausible logically, his only scientific reference is ... well ... himself. Mentzer's ideas simply do not hold up to scientific scrutiny.

I've read Arthur Jones thought negative only training is the most productive way for a bodybuilder to train. Might be true, might not be, but I'm going to try phasing it in.

One should not be a phase of negative only training, when in pursuit of optimal gains. Why would anyone want to do negative only training?

Sounds like some differing opinions. Let me weigh in on this. BBF... I'd like to agree but add something. I've seen studies comparing concentric-only, eccentric-only, and concentric-and-eccentric groups. They found that that both groups with an eccentric had over 3x as much growth as the concentric-only group, with the group that did both having slightly more growth.

What we can assume is that weighted eccentrics are responsible for the majority of growth, but you should do concentrics too if you can.

Where I think negative-only training has merits is as a way to further increase the load in a periodized routine. What happens when you hit your 1RM? There's nowhere left to go. But then recall that eccentric strength is, on average, 30% greater than concentric, and boom. Negatives are a way to keep the progressive loading for several more weeks before taking a layoff.

HST actually has a negative phase at the end, which I think takes advantage of this quite nicely. I've never personally done it though, never had a training partner. But people say good things on the HST boards.