methyl

[ryno9000]

so everyone knows orals (except maybe only oral primo) is methyl-ated to prevent destruction by the liver. Apparently this is what makes it liver toxic. two questions:

1. What makes something going through the liver twice "toxic"
2. Aren't there LOTS of medications that people are put on designed for daily use methyl-ated for this vary reason, and might we be overstating the actual toxicity of such drugs? I have heard that people with severe anemia can be put on MEGA doses (up to 500mg/day) anadrol for long long terms, talking years by DOCTORS.

Again, these are questions, not starting a fight so let's not flame me or others.

 

[needtogetaas]

all good points bro. The liver can take a pounding. I mean look at drunks who pound the liver with hard shit all there life. It takes years and years of it to have any effect.

 

[Nelson Montana]

so everyone knows orals (except maybe only oral primo) is methyl-ated to prevent destruction by the liver. Apparently this is what makes it liver toxic. two questions:

1. What makes something going through the liver twice "toxic"
2. Aren't there LOTS of medications that people are put on designed for daily use methyl-ated for this vary reason, and might we be overstating the actual toxicity of such drugs? I have heard that people with severe anemia can be put on MEGA doses (up to 500mg/day) anadrol for long long terms, talking years by DOCTORS.

Again, these are questions, not starting a fight so let's not flame me or others.

It's TWICE toxic because it hits the liver in 2 ways.

#1: The substance itself is toxic (i.e. somewhat poisonous) so the liver has to work hard to get rid of it.

And #2; The methyating PREVENTS the liver from breaking it down so it remains in the system longer. That causes extreme strain. AND...it prevents the liver from breaking down OTHER toxins, which in turn are released into the bloodstream and not purified -- which is why you should never drink and do orals -- that's jaundice waiting to happen.

 

[ryno9000]

But if you get jaundice you can save a ton of money on TANNING!


good responses guys, I was hoping both of you would chime in and so far the only two to post

Can anyone enlighten us with the second question I posted?

 

[Nelson Montana]

But if you get jaundice you can save a ton of money on TANNING!


good responses guys, I was hoping both of you would chime in and so far the only two to post

Can anyone enlighten us with the second question I posted?

I never heard of anemia being treated for years. B12 ferrous sulfate are the first course of treatment. Steroids really haven;t been used for malnutrition in 50 years. In muscle wasted cases, like HIV, yes, but if you have HIV it's better to strain the liver than to let the disease eat away at you. And of course, they can't drink and must monitor liver function often. And everyone's tolerance is different.


Realize also, when anti-biotics were discoverd doctors thought THIS SHIT IS GREAT! USE IT ALL THE TIME AND YOU'LL NEVER GET AN INFECTION! We now know, it doesn't work like that. All drugs take their toll. They serve a purpose and are safe if used responsibly and can cause irrepairable damage if overused.

 

[gear63]

yes as recommend by the maker of anadrol (alaven) the dose is between 1-5mg per kg of body weight ED (normally effective at 2mg per Kg body weight ) but this is for severe anemia and would act much differently in a normal healthy individual hope this helps

 

[SuperStrong]

Ok guys what about Aromasin? Isn't that 6-methylated ATD? I've heard Aromasin wasn't liver toxic though, yet it's methylated. They also have mATD out now which is methylated ATD over the counter supplement, which they claim they attached a "non liver toxic" methyl. Also what about Anavar, that's methylated as well and said to be not liver toxic. Anyone can shed light on them?

SS

 

[Nelson Montana]

Ok guys what about Aromasin? Isn't that 6-methylated ATD? I've heard Aromasin wasn't liver toxic though, yet it's methylated. They also have mATD out now which is methylated ATD over the counter supplement, which they claim they attached a "non liver toxic" methyl. Also what about Anavar, that's methylated as well and said to be not liver toxic. Anyone can shed light on them?

SS[/QUOT

It' s all dose related. How many mgs of aromasan do you take a week? Two? There are guys using 700 mgs of an oral a week.

Same with var. The original oxandrolone came in 2 mg tabs and 2 tabs a day was the recommended dose. AT that dose it isn;t very toxic. Moron internet gurus then extrapolated that var isn't liver toxic and I've even heard a few claim it's liver HEALTHY.

With slight variations, a mg of 17 AA is equally toxic across the board.

 

[SuperStrong]

Ok guys what about Aromasin? Isn't that 6-methylated ATD? I've heard Aromasin wasn't liver toxic though, yet it's methylated. They also have mATD out now which is methylated ATD over the counter supplement, which they claim they attached a "non liver toxic" methyl. Also what about Anavar, that's methylated as well and said to be not liver toxic. Anyone can shed light on them?

SS[/QUOT

It' s all dose related. How many mgs of aromasan do you take a week? Two? There are guys using 700 mgs of an oral a week.

Same with var. The original oxandrolone came in 2 mg tabs and 2 tabs a day was the recommended dose. AT that dose it isn;t very toxic. Moron internet gurus then extrapolated that var isn't liver toxic and I've even heard a few claim it's liver HEALTHY.

With slight variations, a mg of 17 AA is equally toxic across the board.

Thanks Nelson, that's interesting.

But minimal dosing I've seen for Aromasin is 12.5mg/EOD, and a lot take standard dosing which as you probably know is 25mg ED. So calculating the standard, that's 175mg of Aromasin per week. Would that still be within the liver safe zone? But what about the cancer patients who take Aromasin, don't they take it indefinitely and still it's considered liver safe. I was wondering if Aromasin is methylated in a different way that makes it safer? I don't think it's 17aa.

Also, are you saying Anavar is just as liver toxic as Dbol? Because Anavar is being dosed at 50mg+ and not 2mg.

SS

 

[Nelson Montana]

Thanks Nelson, that's interesting.

But minimal dosing I've seen for Aromasin is 12.5mg/EOD, and a lot take standard dosing which as you probably know is 25mg ED. So calculating the standard, that's 175mg of Aromasin per week. Would that still be within the liver safe zone? But what about the cancer patients who take Aromasin, don't they take it indefinitely and still it's considered liver safe. I was wondering if Aromasin is methylated in a different way that makes it safer? I don't think it's 17aa.

Also, are you saying Anavar is just as liver toxic as Dbol? Because Anavar is being dosed at 50mg+ and not 2mg.

SS

Arimidex comes in 1 mg tabs. The dosge you're referring to for aromasan is cancer patients, not bodybuilding purposes. For that, you'll need maybe 12 mgs a week.

Of course, idiot internet gurus will use the same dosing that's prescribed for the ORIGINAL purpose of the drug. This is why the old EF clan used to recommend 5000 i.u's of HCG a week , ( the recommended dose to induce fertility in women) when we now know a couple of 500 i.u. doses is usually more than enough for PCT purposes.

Lots of things are liver toxic -- Tylenol, antibiotics, cold medicine. It's all in the dose and duration.

Yes, a mg of 17 AA is pretty much the same. So if you're taking 100 mgs of something, even if it's Anavar, that is extremely liver toxic. If you're healthy, you 'll be able to tolerate it for a while, but after a month or so, you're causing damage.

 

[silent says]

Nice informative thread going on right here.

 

[SuperStrong]

The dosge you're referring to for aromasan is cancer patients, not bodybuilding purposes. For that, you'll need maybe 12 mgs a week.

Right 25mg per day is the researched dose of Aromasin.

But, what do you mean by 12 mgs per week for Aromasin? That would amount to less than 2mgs of Aromasin a day if used daily, or a dosing of 3mgs/Every Other Day. I don't think there has been any recommendations under 12.5mg/EOD for Aromasin, maybe as low as 12.5mgs/E3D i've seen.

Aromasin comes in 25mg tabs, so are you saying to devide the tablet into 8 equal pieces which would yield about 3mgs per tiny piece? I'm not too sure myself, so I'm wondering if that would be possible.

Also, I just read this tidbit in the forums: "Zyg's initial post on Aromasin - now in "the best of Elite" shows that 25mg of Aromasin compares with 2.5mg of Femara and 1mg of liquidex." So if that's true, then isn't your recommendation comparable to .5mg of liquidex per week?

I hope you can further elaborate on this- since I do tend to like the "less is more" mentality especially the less chemicals put into the body the better I believe. But I've never heard 12mgs of Aromasin per week recommended, so this would be news to the majority.

Of course, idiot internet gurus will use the same dosing that's prescribed for the ORIGINAL purpose of the drug. This is why the old EF clan used to recommend 5000 i.u's of HCG a week , ( the recommended dose to induce fertility in women) when we now know a couple of 500 i.u. doses is usually more than enough for PCT purposes.

I'm still getting mixed info regarding HCG. What methodology to you approve? I know there is a 500iu x 10days straight going around on the forums, I don't take it you mean that?

Lots of things are liver toxic -- Tylenol, antibiotics, cold medicine. It's all in the dose and duration.

But will the type of methylation determine how benign it is in regards to hepatoxicity? Like in the way they methylated Aromasin. The cancer patients are receiving the max dosages as per the studies, and I would assume they test for liver toxicity during checkup, yet there are no reports that I know of that suggest Aromasin is liver toxic in even at max dosage.

Yes, a mg of 17 AA is pretty much the same. So if you're taking 100 mgs of something, even if it's Anavar, that is extremely liver toxic. If you're healthy, you 'll be able to tolerate it for a while, but after a month or so, you're causing damage.

Anavar being just as liver toxic as Dbol, etc. is news to me. And thanks for informing me, that is something definitely worth looking into. What then do you think is a both safe and effective dosage of Anavar as well as length of time?

I did a quick search on Anavar and liver toxicity and came upon this interesting tidbit that seems to show there might be something else to Anavar in regards to liver toxicity.

Anavar is also a 17alpha alkylated oral steroid, carrying an alteration that will put stress on the liver. It is important to point out however that dispite this alteration oxandrolone is generally very well tolerated. While liver enzyme tests will occasionally show elevated values, actual damage due to this steroid is not usually a problem. Bio-Technology General states that oxandrolone is not as extensively metabolized by the liver as other l7aa orals are; evidenced by the fact that nearly a third of the compound is still intact when excreted in the urine. This may have to do with the understood milder nature of this agent (compared to other l7aa orals) in terms of hepatotoxicity. One study comparing the effects of oxandrolone to other agents including as methyltestosterone, norethandrolone, fluoxymesterone and methAndriol clearly supports this notion. Here it was demonstrated that oxandrolone causes the lowest sulfobromophthalein (BSP; a marker of liver stress) retention among all the alkylated orals tested. 20mg of oxandrolone in fact produced 72% less BSP retention than an equal dosage of fluoxyrnesterone, which is a considerable difference being that they possess the same liver-toxic alteration. With such findings, combined with the fact that athletes rarely report trouble with this drug, most feel comfortable believing it to be much safer to use during longer cycles than most of other orals with this distinction. Although this may very well be true, the chance of liver damage still cannot be excluded, especially with higher dosages.

This drug has also been used at 80mg/day to treat (and reverse!) liver damage in alcohol abusers. Hard to say what this means. My advice is to play it safe and treat it like any other 17aa oral.

Reference: (1: Am J Gastroenterol 1991 Sep;86(9):1200-8, A randomized, controlled trial of treatment of alcoholic hepatitis with parenteral nutrition and oxandrolone. I. Short-term effects on liver function. Bonkovsky HL, Fiellin DA, Smith GS, Slaker DP, Simon D, Galambos JT.)

Thanks,

SS

 

[Nelson Montana]

Right 25mg per day is the researched dose of Aromasin.

But, what do you mean by 12 mgs per week for Aromasin? That would amount to less than 2mgs of Aromasin a day if used daily, or a dosing of 3mgs/Every Other Day. I don't think there has been any recommendations under 12.5mg/EOD for Aromasin, maybe as low as 12.5mgs/E3D i've seen.

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ANTI E'S SHOULD NEVER BE TAKEN DAILY.


......................................................................................

Aromasin comes in 25mg tabs, so are you saying to devide the tablet into 8 equal pieces which would yield about 3mgs per tiny piece? I'm not too sure myself, so I'm wondering if that would be possible.

...............................................................................................

BREAK IT IN QUARTERS AND TAKE IT EOD.


.......................................................................

Also, I just read this tidbit in the forums: "Zyg's initial post on Aromasin - now in "the best of Elite" shows that 25mg of Aromasin compares with 2.5mg of Femara and 1mg of liquidex." So if that's true, then isn't your recommendation comparable to .5mg of liquidex per week?
.........................................................

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT LIQUIDEX -- NEVER USED IT, NEVER WILL.


.............................................................................

I'm still getting mixed info regarding HCG. What methodology to you approve? I know there is a 500iu x 10days straight going around on the forums, I don't take it you mean that?

...........................................................

I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD USE HCG ONLY WHEN THE TESTES ARE ATROPHIED. 1000 MGS WILL BRING THEM BACK. (FOR A WHILE) MORE IS A WASTE. IF YOU NEED TO USE IT MORE THAN TWICE ON A CYCLE, YOU'VE BEEN ON TOO LONG.


..................................................................................

But will the type of methylation determine how benign it is in regards to hepatoxicity? Like in the way they methylated Aromasin. The cancer patients are receiving the max dosages as per the studies, and I would assume they test for liver toxicity during checkup, yet there are no reports that I know of that suggest Aromasin is liver toxic in even at max dosage.

..............................................................................

THERE ARE DIFFERENT TYPES OF METHYLATION. I CAN'T CLAIM TO BE AN EXPERT ON THIS OTHER THAN TO SAY IT WOULD TAKE A LOT OF AROMASAN TO PRESENT A PROBLEM. BUT IF IT'S A CHOICE BETWEEN CANCER AND STRESSING THE LIVER, THE CHOICE IS CLEAR. AGAIN, THIS ISN;T A FACTOR FOR PCT PURPOSES.

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Anavar being just as liver toxic as Dbol, etc. is news to me. And thanks for informing me, that is something definitely worth looking into. What then do you think is a both safe and effective dosage of Anavar as well as length of time?

I did a quick search on Anavar and liver toxicity and came upon this interesting tidbit that seems to show there might be something else to Anavar in regards to liver toxicity.

........................................................................................


THERE ARE SLIGHT VARIANCES. VAR MAY BE A LITTLE LESS TOXIC, METYLTESTOSTERONE (AND SUPERDROL) A LITTLE MORE, BUT IT'S SPITTING HAIRS. AS FOR AVAVAR REPAIRING THE LIVER, I'M CALLING BULLSHIT ON THAT ONE. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. SOMETHING'S BEING CONCLUDED ERRONEOUSLY. PERHAPS THE PATIENTS HEALTH IMPROVED AND THUS, THE LIVER FUNCTION IMPROVED. BUT ANYTHING 17 AA IS NOT LIVER BENEFICIAL!







Thanks,

SS

..

 

[SuperStrong]

ANTI E'S SHOULD NEVER BE TAKEN DAILY.

Is this so that estrogen won't be driven too low? or is there some other reason?

I thought you want to maintain steady blood levels, yet not too high a dose as to drive estrogen too low, and so wouldn't that suggest taking a low dose everyday to maintain steady levels?

BREAK IT IN QUARTERS AND TAKE IT EOD.

Then that would be about 25mgs a week, not 12mgs per week, would that sound about right? And so you are recommending: 6mgs Aromasin EOD? correct?

I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD USE HCG ONLY WHEN THE TESTES ARE ATROPHIED. 1000 MGS WILL BRING THEM BACK. (FOR A WHILE) MORE IS A WASTE. IF YOU NEED TO USE IT MORE THAN TWICE ON A CYCLE, YOU'VE BEEN ON TOO LONG.

How do you dose this though? Once you have atrophied on cycle, do you immediately do a 2-day dosing at 500iu per day: Like 500iu Monday, and 500iu Tuesday? And maybe wednesday, thursday too, etc. in case it didn't bring them back. Or is it an EOD kind of dosing.

THERE ARE SLIGHT VARIANCES. VAR MAY BE A LITTLE LESS TOXIC, METYLTESTOSTERONE (AND SUPERDROL) A LITTLE MORE, BUT IT'S SPITTING HAIRS.

So are you saying from an mg to mg comparison, anavar is just as liver toxic as dianabol? What then do you recommend as far as a dosage for effectiveness and safety as well as length of time before coming off it?

Thanks Nelson, your responses has been very insightful.

SS

 

[SuperStrong]

^^