Measuring bodyfat

[Generic MALE]

I bought a pair of calipers. Does anyone know of a good website that teaches how to do the pinch test - what areas etc?I have done underwater weighing twice but it is expensive and inconvenient so I thought I would try to do my own pinch testing.

 

[Dave949]

Pinch testing (calipers) is quite an inacurate method for BF percentage. It is OK to use to see if your are putting on a lil fat or losing a lil fat but kinda usless for your (actual) BF %.

People who sell them or use them on clients will swear by them but there is a obvious bias going on there.

Hydrostatic is the way to go. Yes, it is a lil pricey but you WILL know what your actual BF % really is.

IMHO..... I would rather rely on the mirror than calipers. I use the mirror and the mirror never lies !!!

Pump on .....

 

[georgie24]

yup the mirror is the best way

 

[Bulldog_10]

Pinch testing (calipers) is quite an inacurate method for BF percentage. It is OK to use to see if your are putting on a lil fat or losing a lil fat but kinda usless for your (actual) BF %.

People who sell them or use them on clients will swear by them but there is a obvious bias going on there.

Hydrostatic is the way to go. Yes, it is a lil pricey but you WILL know what your actual BF % really is.

IMHO..... I would rather rely on the mirror than calipers. I use the mirror and the mirror never lies !!!

Pump on .....

Wrong answer bro. Calipers are very good, if used correctly. Obviously you want to go with hydrostatic weighing or DEXA, but he already said that type of thing is too expensive and inconvenient.

Bro...do a search, I'm sure you'll find those equations somewhere...it shouldn't be too hard. Or buy a book (ACSM's guidelines for exercise testing and prescription has it, and I think the essentials of strength training and conditioning has them too).

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Bulldog is right about ACSM - look for the book. Also, it's not the easiest thing to do yourself. Might want to think about having a trusted friend/workout partner/significant other help you. But the same person needs to do it everytime to be valid and reliable.

Calipers ARE a good method of tracking BF assuming person is doing it correctly and it takes time to get a feel for how to do it. But it is very useful and eay to do on a regular basis. It has a margin of error of +/-2%.

 

[Dave949]

Wrong answer bro. Calipers are very good, if used correctly.

Exactly.........if used 100% correctly !!! And even if used correctly your still in the plus / minus 2 or 3 % and that is in the best of circumstances. The error margin can go higher (5%) if one is just a (little) off.

I respect your and Daisey`s opinions on calipers. I personally feel there is too much of an inaccuracy potential which = unreliable.

Pump on .....

 

[Bulldog_10]

Looking in the mirror is more accurate?

 

[Jafar]

What do you all think of this site?

www.mybodycomp.com

I think it's pretty accurate myself.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Just by looking at it quickly, I'd say that it might be useful for some people, but probably not for people interested in bodybuilding. Sort of like BMI, ok for normal people, but the numbers are all fucked up when you apply it to people with greater than normal muscle mass.

 

[Dave949]

Looking in the mirror is more accurate?

For testing on what your actual BF % is ? Absolutely not.

But if you know your (actual) BF %, a trained eye can tell if your % is going up or down (ever so slightly).

I am always at 11.4 to 11.6 % (hydrostatic). I can look in the mirror and judging by the sharpness on the outside of my abs and also on my quads, I can tell if I am going up or down % point or so.

Would it be an actual reliable figure ? No. and that was simply my contention with calipers. As stated in my original response I did use the word actual in parenthesis. If your happy with a range of +/- 2 - 5 % than its all good and this debate/discussion is moot. I (personally) would not be sastisfied with +/- 2 to 5 % (IF) done 100% correctly.

Pump on .....

 

[Bulldog_10]

For testing on what your actual BF % is ? Absolutely not.

But if you know your (actual) BF %, a trained eye can tell if your % is going up or down (ever so slightly).

I am always at 11.4 to 11.6 % (hydrostatic). I can look in the mirror and judging by the sharpness on the outside of my abs and also on my quads, I can tell if I am going up or down % point or so.

Would it be an actual reliable figure ? No. and that was simply my contention with calipers. As stated in my original response I did use the word actual in parenthesis. If your happy with a range of +/- 2 - 5 % than its all good and this debate/discussion is moot. I (personally) would not be sastisfied
with +/- 2 to 5 % if done 100% correctly.

Pump on .....

If done 100% correctly, it correlates with hydrostatic 70-90%...however, if you're going by your method, and just want to see whether it is fluctuating, caliper testing is much better than looking in the mirror. If it's done by the same person every time, it is about 100% reliable in indicating changes in BF%.

 

[Dave949]

If it's done by the same person every time, it is about 100% reliable in indicating changes in BF%.

I Agree.

And I mentioned in my initial response to this thread they are OK to use to see if your BF is going up or down (aka changes) but not for (actual) %.

Pump on .....

 

[Generic MALE]

"Uh..thanks...you have been mos' hepful" - Eddie Murphy, from TRADING PLACES

 

[Judo Tom]

a six point reading is a much better way to track progress than a mirror imo

gotta agree with bulldog here

 

[majutsu]

Accu-Measure calipers are very reproducible. It's plastic, idiot proof, and very reproducible. How reliable is it? A study looking at commercial calipers showed to be closest to underwater weighing in about 60 college age fit people. It was reliable, and accurate within 3% or so of BF%. This is considered good for skinfold testing. Here's the study:
http://www.bodytrends.com/accustudy.pdf

You won't get better skinfold results with multiple measurements; you'll likely just mess up.

Actually, underwater weighing is not the gold standard, as marrow, and other elements change with training, but are not reflective of BF% changes per se. DEXA actually was shown in female rowers to change with training, somehow from potassium shifts. So, the real standard is MRI with volumetric and densiometry analysis. Unless, you have the MRI in your closet, just buy some accu-measures and do it once every six months (long enough that you don't make too much of change of 2% that could just be measurement variance). And use a mirror. I remember a story Arnold tells where in Mike M. was confident of victory before a contest because of body fat testing showing he was the most shredded competitor. Arnold jokes that apparently the judges didn't know Mike was supposed to win, and gave the title in question to Arnold. Nobody has an MRI when you compete or walk on the beach . . .

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Nobody has an MRI when you compete or walk on the beach . . .

You know, that is such a good point. Basically, what is the point of trying to get to a certain BF%? Does that mean anything.....really? A certain percentage is going to look different on any person - 10% on one person is going to look different than 10% on another - depending on where your fat is distributed and your genetics. And just because you are a certain percent, does not mean you will win a competition.

I can see wanting to get as lean as possible as a GOAL, but getting to a certain percentage? I guess to just see if you can do it, I can understand that. But really, if the overall LOOK is what you are going for, the mirror is a better test. If a certain look is the goal, then who really cares what the numbers are?

Interesting.

 

[Bulldog_10]

You know, that is such a good point. Basically, what is the point of trying to get to a certain BF%? Does that mean anything.....really? A certain percentage is going to look different on any person - 10% on one person is going to look different than 10% on another - depending on where your fat is distributed and your genetics. And just because you are a certain percent, does not mean you will win a competition.

I can see wanting to get as lean as possible as a GOAL, but getting to a certain percentage? I guess to just see if you can do it, I can understand that. But really, if the overall LOOK is what you are going for, the mirror is a better test. If a certain look is the goal, then who really cares what the numbers are?

Interesting.

I can't even tell you how many time I have to explain that to women in my gym. They all want to get down to a particular weight, and I have to tell them a million times that the number doesn't matter. It's how you look! And even though alot of them understand that they might not lose weight, but will still look better, they STILL want to get to that desired weight. It really pisses me off sometimes.

 

[Daisy_Girl]

I can't even tell you how many time I have to explain that to women in my gym. They all want to get down to a particular weight, and I have to tell them a million times that the number doesn't matter. It's how you look! And even though alot of them understand that they might not lose weight, but will still look better, they STILL want to get to that desired weight. It really pisses me off sometimes.

WHY are women like that? It is so funny. I get like that sometimes, and I know better! It annoys the hell outta me when I fall into that line of thinking, but I can't help it for some reason. Dumb, I know, especially since I know better. It is SO stupid to worry about weight - which is just gravity's pull on you - but still, it is a hard thing for women to get past.

 

[Bulldog_10]

WHY are women like that? It is so funny. I get like that sometimes, and I know better! It annoys the hell outta me when I fall into that line of thinking, but I can't help it for some reason. Dumb, I know, especially since I know better. It is SO stupid to worry about weight - which is just gravity's pull on you - but still, it is a hard thing for women to get past.

Tell me about it...sometimes women make me want to drive off a cliff when they do things like this. Especially when they say they know better, like SOMEONE i know

 

[Fonz]

You know, that is such a good point. Basically, what is the point of trying to get to a certain BF%? Does that mean anything.....really? A certain percentage is going to look different on any person - 10% on one person is going to look different than 10% on another - depending on where your fat is distributed and your genetics. And just because you are a certain percent, does not mean you will win a competition.

I can see wanting to get as lean as possible as a GOAL, but getting to a certain percentage? I guess to just see if you can do it, I can understand that. But really, if the overall LOOK is what you are going for, the mirror is a better test. If a certain look is the goal, then who really cares what the numbers are?

Interesting.

I use my BF%, as an indicator of how many calories I need to eat. I can drop 1-1.5% BF in a week if I don'y consume in excess of 3000Kcal. I have to watch my diet and BF% like a hawk or else I either get to lean and then end up getting joint problems, easy bruising, etc... the things that accompany low BF%. Not exactly the best thing to have happen to you in sports like soccer and track, which are very taxing on joints, ligaments, and tendons.

Fonz

 

[Dave949]

the number doesn't matter. It's how you look!.

Yup..... the good ol mirror..... it never lies !!!

Pump on .....

 

[Bulldog_10]

Yup..... the good ol mirror..... it never lies !!!

Pump on .....

Damn you! You got me...but I still say that if you want to keep an accurate record of your progress...use the calipers (or at least SOME sort of measurement device).

 

[Bulldog_10]

Oh...and why don't you put the "pump on..." in your sig? That's what sigs are for!


Someone PLEASE tell me the smiley with the bag over his head is NOT gone!

 

[Dave949]

Damn you! You got me....

Yup...... I`ve been wating for you to slip up !!!

Yo Bull..... I know we have been splitting hairs that have already been split and then split again with this issue and I always enjoy a good healthy debate (and matching wits) done in a respectful and positive way. The outcome is always positive thing.

But ya just HAD to get the last shot in with my sig huh !!!

Touche` my brother ........... Karma for you

Pump on .....

 

[Daisy_Girl]

I use my BF%, as an indicator of how many calories I need to eat. I can drop 1-1.5% BF in a week if I don'y consume in excess of 3000Kcal. I have to watch my diet and BF% like a hawk or else I either get to lean and then end up getting joint problems, easy bruising, etc... the things that accompany low BF%. Not exactly the best thing to have happen to you in sports like soccer and track, which are very taxing on joints, ligaments, and tendons.

Fonz

That is a very valid reason for YOU to track your BF and/or weight. You do it for a type of performance point....But for the average person - it seems to be pointless in a way.

Not saying people shouldn't track BF, I think it is an excellent way to gauge progress. Much better than the scale (lol Bulldog, got it, got it, point taken... ). Tracking BF changes can certainly be useful in gauging a person's progress (or lack of progress).

But since Maj brought up an interesting point, I am now wondering why focus on getting to a certain set PERCENT when it is the LOOK a person is after. Whether the goal is to be lean or to compete, why focus on getting to a percent? Why not simply bust your ass to get the desired look and let numbers be damned?

 

[Mavy]

I just got my bf tested last week, by the same person who always tests me. She told me that the best methods, and best calipers (over $1000.00 cdn) which she uses are really only accurate to +-5%, and that they are played out to be accurate to 2-3% for abvious reasons, but in reality this is not the case. There are just too many varibales that cannot be considered in your bf being tested with calipers. It will definately give you a ballpark though.

 

[Generic MALE]

why focus on getting to a certain set PERCENT when it is the LOOK a person is after. Whether the goal is to be lean or to compete, why focus on getting to a percent? Why not simply bust your ass to get the desired look and let numbers be damned?

Same reason we keep track of how much weight we increase on the bar, or how many more pull ups we can do, or how many seconds it takes to run a 200m, or how many inches our biceps are... because it gives us something to shoot for while we train. In the process we also learn about ourselves - which areas are the most stubborn for fat loss, what sort of diets and exercise plans thin our skins the most (Oh, if I drink 7-up and do 20 minutes of cardio at level 18 I lose sub-Q fat faster than if I skip the cardio and never take carb drinks),........ also not everyone trains simply for how they look.

 

[Generic MALE]

Oka...I will take all these posts as meaning that nobody knows a good link to doing body fat via calipers.

 

[Generic MALE]

Yup..... the good ol mirror..... it never lies !!!

Pump on .....

The mirror does lie to people with dysmorphia. Women who are anorexic literally see themselves as fat when looking in a mirror. I am sure many of us see a beer gut and speghetti arms no matter what the reality is. Calipers may be more honest in the sense that if it says 14 mm pinched one day and 7 mm a couple of weeks later....

 

[Dave949]

The mirror does lie to people with dysmorphia. Women who are anorexic literally see themselves as fat when looking in a mirror.

With all due respect Generic....it is NOT the mirror which is lying. The mirror never lies. It is an ill mind which is misperceiving an (accurate reflection) and distorting it. But it is not the mirror. Sorry.

Pump on .....

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Same reason we keep track of how much weight we increase on the bar, or how many more pull ups we can do, or how many seconds it takes to run a 200m, or how many inches our biceps are... because it gives us something to shoot for while we train. In the process we also learn about ourselves - which areas are the most stubborn for fat loss, what sort of diets and exercise plans thin our skins the most (Oh, if I drink 7-up and do 20 minutes of cardio at level 18 I lose sub-Q fat faster than if I skip the cardio and never take carb drinks),........ also not everyone trains simply for how they look.

I already conceeded that it gives people a goal to shoot for. I see nothing wrong with that - goals are individual and I would never judge someone's goals. For the record, I am not saying BF% is stupid. Hell, I place a lot of value in my BF reading....too much. For me, BF% can be DE-motivating as well as motivating. Especially if it does not say what I was expecting. Just trying to look at it objectively - in reality, it is just another number.

The process of dieting and training DO teach us about our bodies - but that has nothing to do with BF%. If I never got my BF tested I would still know (via clothing and mirrors) if my new diet and exercise plan was working or not. The BF% gives me a number to base that off of - but I could make the decision without it. I can make deductions about my training and my diet without knowing ANY numbers....

I am not sure you can compare all numbers/goals to BF%. I understand your point, and do agree that many people don't train simply for looks. But if I am training for a speed event (say 200m race). I know the record, I know what I need to beat to win. I know what to shoot for. The timed event doesn't differ from person to person - the winner has the fastest time. In a BB comp, the winner might not have the lowest BF or even a specific BF%. In most things, it is an exact number that must be achieved to win. BB is not that way. If you are training for a certain look, you cannot say that at X% BF you will be cut and lean - that % can differ from person to person.

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Oh, and a couple of us told you to check out ACSM for calculations.

 

[Dave949]

Hey Daisy..... don`t feel so bad about your lost gallery. I lost mine too AND my Karma vanished as well !!!

Screw the calipers, screw the mirror and screw the BF %.

I want my gallery and karma back..........................WAAAAHHHHH

Cry on .....

 

[Fonz]

Well, if you're going for a certain look...(Whatever that may be)...genetics are very much against you.

Stubborn fatty areas are almost impossible to get rid off. Even a perfect diet and every topical or oral drug out there that targets the specific A2 adrenoreceptor, responsible for keeping the fat inside the fatty areas(Stubborn fat is normally very, very high in A2 cells). All you'll end up doing for your troubles is losing muscle. Only GH can target stubborn fatty tissue, because it does not interact with the Beta or Alpha adrenoreceptor system, but increases lipolysis equally throughout the entire body by modifying the cellular response to cortisol after attaching itself to the GH receptors.(most of GH's effects are mediated by the subsequent increase in IGF-1 btw)

Fonz

 

[IronJunkey]

I bought a pair of calipers. Does anyone know of a good website that teaches how to do the pinch test - what areas etc?I have done underwater weighing twice but it is expensive and inconvenient so I thought I would try to do my own pinch testing.

head down to a worlds gym have them take yours and note how they do it...iguess you could just also measure about 3 spots and average them...under shoulder blade+Oblique+tri+maybe front of stomach...its only as accuate as you take it...so have someone else

 

[Generic MALE]

The mirror does lie to people with dysmorphia. Women who are anorexic literally see themselves as fat when looking in a mirror.

With all due respect Generic....it is NOT the mirror which is lying. The mirror never lies. It is an ill mind which is misperceiving an (accurate reflection) and distorting it. But it is not the mirror. Sorry.

Pump on .....

With all due respect Dave, and for the sake of argument mirrors always lie. The most accurate mirrors in the world are in space telescopes and the distortions inherent in them make accurate calculations of distant objects very difficult. The innaccuracy of mirrors makes fun houses notoriosuly fun for the distortions of self image their mirrors create. Its true that on top of that , the distortion of perceptions skewed even further by personal bias make accurately observing anything damn near impossible - that is why witnesses of crimes give greatly differing stories, and why fags argue whether the color of the kitchen paint is Navajo white or eggshell.

 

[Generic MALE]

Hell, I place a lot of value in my BF reading....too much. For me, BF% can be DE-motivating as well as motivating. Especially if it does not say what I was expecting.

If your avatar is your real picture I cannot imagine you feeling too DE-motivated.

 

[Bulldog_10]

With all due respect Dave, and for the sake of argument mirrors always lie. The most accurate mirrors in the world are in space telescopes and the distortions inherent in them make accurate calculations of distant objects very difficult. The innaccuracy of mirrors makes fun houses notoriosuly fun for the distortions of self image their mirrors create. Its true that on top of that , the distortion of perceptions skewed even further by personal bias make accurately observing anything damn near impossible - that is why witnesses of crimes give greatly differing stories, and why fags argue whether the color of the kitchen paint is Navajo white or eggshell.

LOL...now we're REALLY splitting hairs.

 

[Generic MALE]

Oh, and a couple of us told you to check out ACSM for calculations.

Oh, and a couple of times I asked for a link. I will just google and look it up. It would have been easier to do that in the first place than asking a simple question, then have it derailed every which way.

I mean that is why people ask questions here in the first place is to save time getting answers - sure everyone could find the answer on their own to every single question that is asked here. But they ask hoping to save some time and making a short cut to hopefully credible accurate information by taking advantage of what other people have already learned. The point of asking questions is to take advantage of the hard work others have already done so one does not have to repave the same road over and over again, reinvent the wheel over and over again,...

 

[Generic MALE]

head down to a worlds gym have them take yours and note how they do it...iguess you could just also measure about 3 spots and average them...under shoulder blade+Oblique+tri+maybe front of stomach...its only as accuate as you take it...so have someone else

Naw, I am too self conscious to let someone else do a pinch test on me. I haven't taken my shirt off in public in over a decade. I have a pretty severe case of dysmorphia and poor self image. I know in my head I am built alright - last time I did underwater weighing I was 6'1", 215 and around 8-9% (I think it was like 8.25% or something without having to go look it up). I hated taking my clothes off to do the underwater weighing in front of one person - certainly not going to let some gym trainer pinch my blubber- especially if it ended up being some hot female.

 

[Generic MALE]

I am sure someone else will have a similar question at some point so here is the link to acsm : http://www.acsm.org/index.asp

 

[Dave949]

LOL...now we're REALLY splitting hairs.

You took the words right out of my mouth Bro, I`m not gonna even touch this one, LOL

 

[Bulldog_10]

Oh, and a couple of times I asked for a link. I will just google and look it up. It would have been easier to do that in the first place than asking a simple question, then have it derailed every which way.

I mean that is why people ask questions here in the first place is to save time getting answers - sure everyone could find the answer on their own to every single question that is asked here. But they ask hoping to save some time and making a short cut to hopefully credible accurate information by taking advantage of what other people have already learned. The point of asking questions is to take advantage of the hard work others have already done so one does not have to repave the same road over and over again, reinvent the wheel over and over again,...

Oh brother. You're not paving a road or reinventing wheels, you're doing a search on google...which takes what, 30 seconds?

 

[wend]

Generic, if you really have that much trouble having someone else see you without clothes, then you ought to get the Accumeasure calipers as Majutsu suggested. (They're cheap, btw.) They're the only ones designed to allow someone to measure themselves. AND, as he said, they're as or more accurate than the sum3 calculations

 

[Dave949]

Yo...Generic Male .....I can say with all honesty....if you are 6`1", 215 lbs. at 8/9% BF..... you DO in fact possess a very good physique. I hope you can resolve your self image issues. There are many people in this world who would pay good money to have what you have.

As far as asking a simple question on the board and watch it evolve every which way is not uncommon here. The folks here take fitness very very seriously and we all do tend to split hairs over relatively simple things.

I am very surprised this post did not veer off into a debate totally unrelated to calipers like bicep peaks or rest/pause vs. forced reps !!! lol

Pump on .....

 

[Daisy_Girl]

If your avatar is your real picture I cannot imagine you feeling too DE-motivated.

It IS my real picture, and regardless I DO feel DEmotivated by BF% sometimes. Results never happen fast enough - whether it is losing BF or gaining muscle. It all takes too long.

 

[Generic MALE]

Oh brother. You're not paving a road or reinventing wheels, you're doing a search on google...which takes what, 30 seconds?

Well, at this point I see that you are correct - it certainly would have been much easier and faster to do a search than to ask here.

The only problem is establishing credibility. I am sure there are many sites, but which have credible information. I will look at this acsm site and see if I think they are credible too - are they one of the weekend courses you take to be a sports training expert?

 

[Generic MALE]

It IS my real picture, and regardless I DO feel DEmotivated by BF% sometimes. Results never happen fast enough - whether it is losing BF or gaining muscle. It all takes too long.

Yeah I hear ya. I am sure a great many here have the same problem, when in reality average Mr. or Mrs. AmericanFatAss would kill to look like people here. My wife is a professional photographer and I had her take some photos of me last summer - I can get nekkid in front of her-but I could never post them out of insecurity. I have a friend at the gym who use to play pro ball as an end and he was always trying to talk me into showing some skin - because year round I tend to wear a sweat shirt or T shirt and long sweat pants - he felt I should show off my physique. I actually went and bought to sleeveless shirts. When I walked into the gym he yelled from the other side "Hey Mr.Muscles, nice muscle shirt" - Needless to say it was the first and last time I did that. When I was in college this lady who ran an exotic dancers group tried to recruit me to be a male dancer (stripper) - the money seemed great at the time but there was not enough liqour in the midwest to get me to get nekkid in front of a bunch of screaming ladies.

I am sure many if not most here have the same problem to varying degrees - why else would they buy who knows what in a underground vial and risk shooting into their bodies?

 

[Generic MALE]

Yo...Generic Male .....I can say with all honesty....if you are 6`1", 215 lbs. at 8/9% BF..... you DO in fact possess a very good physique. I hope you can resolve your self image issues. There are many people in this world who would pay good money to have what you have.
....

hell I paid good money to have what I have and fat lot of good it does me. I hate to think how much extra I have paid in gym fees, gear, supplements, food, protein powders and how much of my life has been spent over the last 5 or so years searching the net for a better way to do it. Although I have put on tens of pounds, lost 10% of my body fat - I can't say its changed my self esteem at all.

Dr. Maltz was a famous plastic surgeon back in the 70's who remarked how he frequently would perform beautiful facial reconstructions on people , but how they would still see themselves the same. he wrote a book ...I think it was called psychocybernetics about this phenomenon. Our self esteem was likened to a thermostat - if we performed out of line with our self image we would do something to bring it back to what we percieve - good or bad. And how hard it was to alter that set mechanism of who we felt we "are". I am not sure one can change self image much...or self esteem....although self confidence can be altered. Self esteem and self confidence are similar but significantly different.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Well, at this point I see that you are correct - it certainly would have been much easier and faster to do a search than to ask here.

The only problem is establishing credibility. I am sure there are many sites, but which have credible information. I will look at this acsm site and see if I think they are credible too - are they one of the weekend courses you take to be a sports training expert?

The ACSM is definitely credible...probably the most credible organization out there when it comes to anything related to exercise. I don't know what you mean by weekend courses...but they do offer a variety of exams to be certified in different areas.

 

[quadkilla31]

Who cares what any device or method says you bf% is. If you are pleased when you look in the mirror so be it. I'm with some of the other bros use the mirror as a measuring device.

 

[bigdho]

What do you all think of this site?

www.mybodycomp.com

I think it's pretty accurate myself.

I just checked it out. Its pretty cool. Saves me a bunch of math and I agree it is almost exactly what my figures said.