Married with Children? You're amongst the elite in America.

[Longhorn85]

Remember, when you sit here and degrade and talk down to single moms of this world... on the other side of that fence their is a male that also helped create this situation.

I'm not degrading single moms. There are many unavoidable circumstances which can lead to that, and a kids can and often does thrive in that situation.

I am saying that kids tend to be better off in a home with two married parents (mom and dad).

Systems in our society that discourage marriage and encourage shacking up, quicky divorce, etc. are harmful to the institution of marriage and family.

 

[Longhorn85]

I also am wholly confident that my child won't starve. I make enough to care for a baby. My income alone would be equivalent to two middle class parents.

Is that why you find yourself today as a 40 year old woman living with her parents?

 

[Frisky]

I'm not degrading single moms. There are many unavoidable circumstances which can lead to that, and a kids can and often does thrive in that situation.

I am saying that kids tend to be better off in a home with two married parents (mom and dad).

Systems in our society that discourage marriage and encourage shacking up, quicky divorce, etc. are harmful to the institution of marriage and family.

I am currently 'shaked up' and couldn't be happier. I was married for 11 years, and quite miserable twords the end, which ended in divorce and two kids that really were miserable with us being together. My kids are very loved and provided for.

Marriage is a law created by man, I will forever think of it that way and have since the day I was old enough to even know how to spell it. I know the whole dynamics of how law of the land pertains to what the bible says... etc... but I still don't feel like I need another mortal to bless a relationship for me. I am loyal, devoted and a great mother and SO, no paper in the world could possibly make me better...

 

[heatherrae]

Is that why you find yourself today as a 40 year old woman living with her parents?

I'm not 40, nor do I live with my parents. Once again, you show your extreme IGNORANCE

 

[heatherrae]

Once again, and for the 10 time, probably:

HAVE YOU EVER HAD SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE?
HAVE YOU EVER COMMITED ADULTERY?

If so, how do you justify criticizing people for being single parents when you may have a baby out of wedlock that you dont even know about?


Is anyone else noticicing that he is avoiding this question? LOLOLOLOL

I've never met a bigger hypocrite.

 

[jackangel]

Is that why you find yourself today as a 40 year old woman living with her parents?

is that a sincere question, or a small attack disguised as a valid point? do you know enough to make the point? might not be so nice.

 

[heatherrae]

I'm not degrading single moms. There are many unavoidable circumstances which can lead to that, and a kids can and often does thrive in that situation.

I am saying that kids tend to be better off in a home with two married parents (mom and dad).

Systems in our society that discourage marriage and encourage shacking up, quicky divorce, etc. are harmful to the institution of marriage and family.

I think you clearly are degrading single moms, non-christians, and homosexuals because we don't have a life that mirrors your own. Everyone is morally inferior to you, in your eyes.

 

[Jimsbbc]

I think you clearly are degrading single moms, non-christians, and homosexuals because we don't have a life that mirrors your own. Everyone is morally inferior to you, in your eyes.

That is typical of wealthy, educated neo-cons from the affluent society I grew up in. It makes me want to puke. It is a prevalent, elitist mentality that they are better and entitled to this great life and the others below them, socioeconomically and ideologically speaking, are throw-away people.

 

[heatherrae]

That is typical of wealthy, educated neo-cons from the affluent society I grew up in. It makes me want to puke. It is a prevalent, elitist mentality that they are better and entitled to this great life and the others below them, socioeconomically and ideologically speaking, are throw-away people.

The thing that amazes me the most is that ANYONE who has had sex outside the bond of marriage would insult people for having children outside of marriage. Clearly, that is how children outside of marriage come about...lol. Does it not seem radically hypocritical to anyone else? lol.

Yes, I know what you mean, jimsbbc. I grew up poor but have been around mainly very wealthy and very well educated people since law school, just by virtue of my profession. I have found them to be far more unempathetic and nasty to anyone who did not chose to pursue higher education, get married, move to the suburbs, and have 3 kids, in that particular order.

 

[velvett]

This is one of those threads where you think to yourself, "I just didn't see it turning out this way."

 

[jackangel]

if "degrading" isn't your word of choice, then at the very least, perhaps you'll agree that you're making a value judgement which indicates disapproval of single parenthood in the majority of cases.

 

[heatherrae]

This is one of those threads where you think to yourself, "I just didn't see it turning out this way."

lol

 

[jackangel]

This is one of those threads where you think to yourself, "I just didn't see it turning out this way."

i wish i had said this.

e-love you long time.

 

[alien amp pharm]

Here is the issue I have with marriage/kids/sex.

Assuming premaritial sex is wrong, how can anyone successfully pull it off without doing something extremely dumb like getting married at an early age?

 

[Frisky]

Here is the issue I have with marriage/kids/sex.

Assuming premaritial sex is wrong, how can anyone successfully pull it off without doing something extremely dumb like getting married at an early age?

finally... you actually said something smart for a change. wanna get married?

 

[heatherrae]

Here is the issue I have with marriage/kids/sex.

Assuming premaritial sex is wrong, how can anyone successfully pull it off without doing something extremely dumb like getting married at an early age?

Very valid point.

 

[Frisky]

man I can not believe the turn of this thread. I love (well e love ) everyone who posted and agree to disagree with some of you. But really, society, religion and politics pressure us to marry for one reason or another... the result... wounded relationships in the end. I for one am happier now without a paper giving me the right to have sex and it be blessed. Whom can actually grant me that right besides God himself (If i am a believer) ? Who are you (anyone) to judge me or anyone else that does not abide by your rules or your religion? I deal with this shit enough with my Hypocrite mother ... then now having to deal with other hypocrites ...lol...

 

[javaguru]

I am currently 'shaked up' and couldn't be happier. I was married for 11 years, and quite miserable twords the end, which ended in divorce and two kids that really were miserable with us being together. My kids are very loved and provided for.

Marriage is a law created by man, I will forever think of it that way and have since the day I was old enough to even know how to spell it. I know the whole dynamics of how law of the land pertains to what the bible says... etc... but I still don't feel like I need another mortal to bless a relationship for me. I am loyal, devoted and a great mother and SO, no paper in the world could possibly make me better...

I found this interesting,

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

Variation in divorce rates by religion:
Religion % have been divorced
Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%


"Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all. George Barna commented that the results raise "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families.' The data challenge "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage.'"

Donald Hughes, author of The Divorce Reality, said:

"In the churches, people have a superstitious view that Christianity will keep them from divorce, but they are subject to the same problems as everyone else, and they include a lack of relationship skills. ...Just being born again is not a rabbit's foot."

Hughes claim that 90% of divorces among born-again couples occur after they have been "saved."

Ron Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said:

"These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage."

 

[Frisky]

I found this interesting,

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

Variation in divorce rates by religion:
Religion % have been divorced
Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%


"Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all. George Barna commented that the results raise "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families.' The data challenge "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage.'"

Donald Hughes, author of The Divorce Reality, said:

"In the churches, people have a superstitious view that Christianity will keep them from divorce, but they are subject to the same problems as everyone else, and they include a lack of relationship skills. ...Just being born again is not a rabbit's foot."

Hughes claim that 90% of divorces among born-again couples occur after they have been "saved."

Ron Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said:

"These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage."

I am a believer, i don't practice the way I am told by my church... but still read and believe. I have my own way of practice and those whom disagree with me just as soon step off and away from my life. I don't tell them how to butter their bread and therefore I don't take it lightly when they suggest how I lead my life or if and when I should have sex or marry... etc. I love the church I belong to, its the people however that make the church, not just the pastor... and lately the people (mostly whom are really close to me... family) have pushed me further and further away.

 

[Jimsbbc]

Some of the most elitist, self-centered, egotistical, self-indulgent, narcissistic people I have ever encountered were prominent members or even elders in the evangelical church I belonged to in the Memorial area of Houston. I have since been drawn to smaller, down home type churches since leaving.

 

[redsamurai]

I'm going to agree that "optimally".....it is probably best that a child be raised by two mentally stable parents, a man and woman......but life ain't "optimal". And if longhorn would jog down out of that Ivory tower every now and then he might get a glimpse of that. Nobody "wants" to be a single parent......but it happens, people fuck each other over.....whaddya gonna do?? Should you get yourself into a long term commitment with someone who is emotionally and/or physically abusive because it's best for the overall societal structure of "family"??? go jump off a high bridge.......I think I"ve figured ole boy out though.......someone in his past left his ass out on the curb, this stung his massive bloated ego.......how could anyone leave "ME"?? And this is his bitterness showing towards the "individual" making choices that are best for them.......and not playing their role like they're "supposed to"....

 

[heatherrae]

Redsamurai, I always tend to agree with you, and I am no different in that post.

Of course, if we would have had a happy, loving relationship I would not have left, but life didn't deal me those cards on this occassion. Even if we had already been married, I still would have had to leave him so marriage in this case would have ended in divorce anyway.

Would I PREFER having a baby with a man who was loving and kind? Of course I would, but shit happened, proverbialy speaking, that made it in the best interests of everyone for that engagement to be ended. ;-)

 

[redsamurai]

Redsamurai, I always tend to agree with you, and I am no different in that post.

Of course, if we would have had a happy, loving relationship I would not have left, but life didn't deal me those cards on this occassion. Even if we had already been married, I still would have had to leave him so marriage in this case would have ended in divorce anyway.

Would I PREFER having a baby with a man who was loving and kind? Of course I would, but shit happened, proverbialy speaking, that made it in the best interests of everyone for that engagement to be ended. ;-)

Yep.....that's life. What amazes me is that I think Longjohn really thinks you just up and one day decided you wanted to be a single mom........when in reality it was probably the most or one of the most painful decisions and period of your life. People like him continue to amaze me to no end.

 

[EnderJE]

So, are we friends now or is blood going to be spilled?

 

[EnderJE]

This is one of those threads where you think to yourself, "I just didn't see it turning out this way."

Not to the degree that it has. I was hoping that would could discuss it rationally without attacks on both sides.

I do understand why one may take it more personally then the other, but then again the hope is that we can give our points and agree to disagree.

Now, global warming....

 

[mrplunkey]

Marriage is a great vehicle to pool resources and to raise a family.

Now that its easier and more acceptable to divorce (or never marry in the first place), marriage is on the decline.

Less-educated and lower-income people get hit harder when they lose the financial and functional benefits of marriage because they have less financial freedom.

Those things are obvious to me.

The thing I find interesting is how people don't "mate down" as often as they used to. Now, well-educated professional people seek-out other well-educated professional people. You don't marry the prettiest girl in the neighborhood anymore -- instead you marry the girl you meet at college. I wonder what 3-5 generations of this will look like, because it seems like we could be looking at a "superclass" of hyper-educated, high-income earners fairly soon.

 

[javaguru]

Just so my post doesn't get lost in the "page over."

I found this interesting,

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

Variation in divorce rates by religion:
Religion % have been divorced
Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%


"Barna's results verified findings of earlier polls: that conservative Protestant Christians, on average, have the highest divorce rate, while mainline Christians have a much lower rate. They found some new information as well: that atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate of all. George Barna commented that the results raise "questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families.' The data challenge "the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriage.'"

Donald Hughes, author of The Divorce Reality, said:

"In the churches, people have a superstitious view that Christianity will keep them from divorce, but they are subject to the same problems as everyone else, and they include a lack of relationship skills. ...Just being born again is not a rabbit's foot."

Hughes claim that 90% of divorces among born-again couples occur after they have been "saved."

Ron Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said:

"These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage."

 

[-SD-]

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/superdave1010101993/birthcontrtol.jpg

 

[redsamurai]

The thing I find interesting is how people don't "mate down" as often as they used to. Now, well-educated professional people seek-out other well-educated professional people. You don't marry the prettiest girl in the neighborhood anymore -- instead you marry the girl you meet at college. I wonder what 3-5 generations of this will look like, because it seems like we could be looking at a "superclass" of hyper-educated, high-income earners fairly soon.

I hope you find this a "good" thing.....right??

 

[mrplunkey]

I hope you find this a "good" thing.....right??

Its good and dangerous at the same time. Generation upon generation of highly-educated, highly-intelligent, well-to-do kids is a good thing. But we also have generation upon generation of institutionalized, under-educated, drug-engrossed, poor kids as well.

Now here's the rub. Capitalism, the best and most proven system in the world, is based on competition. So we have one class emerging that is uniquely positioned to compete and another class emerging that is wholey and inadequately equipped to compete. The risk of our society bifercating and having no middle class is great.

 

[Longhorn85]

I'm going to agree that "optimally".....it is probably best that a child be raised by two mentally stable parents, a man and woman..........

That's the point of this thread. Clearly there will be circumstances that make this impossible, and children can, and often do, thrive in such situations, thanks to awesome single parents. I have made that clear multiple times in this post.

My argument is that society should therefore encourage marriage and strong families, since it is the optimal solution. In some ways it does (tax code, e.g.).

In most ways, it doesn't, in fact, it discourages marriage, as I have itemized ad nauseum.

Nothing personal about those comments. Those who take it as such have issues that they should deal with.

 

[heatherrae]

That's the point of this thread. Clearly there will be circumstances that make this impossible, and children can, and often do, thrive in such situations, thanks to awesome single parents. I have made that clear multiple times in this post.

My argument is that society should therefore encourage marriage and strong families, since it is the optimal solution. In some ways it does (tax code, e.g.).

In most ways, it doesn't, in fact, it discourages marriage, as I have itemized ad nauseum.

Nothing personal about those comments. Those who take it as such have issues that they should deal with.

Oh please, you said that homosexuals, single parents etc were eroding the institution of marriage. Then, you try to backpedal and say that it is nothing personal.

At the very least, be a man and stand behind your hatred.

 

[Longhorn85]

Oh please, you said that homosexuals, single parents etc were eroding the institution of marriage. Then, you try to backpedal and say that it is nothing personal.

At the very least, be a man and stand behind your hatred.

Apparently reading comprehension is not a big focus of whatever law school you attended.

Your bitterness is showing. Does the fact that you failed at marriage before shacking up contribute to your antimosity?

 

[heatherrae]

Apparently reading comprehension is not a big focus of whatever law school you attended.

Your bitterness is showing. Does the fact that you failed at marriage before shacking up contribute to your antimosity?

LOL...failed at marraige. Coming from an admitted adulterer, I wouldn't slam anyone's marraige if I were you.

As much as you have loved to try to slam me and hurt me on this thread and others, I'm not the only one who thinks you are an enormous hypocrite. You wouldn't believe the volume of pms and k messages in agreement with how hypocritical and nasty people have thought you have been in this thread.

 

[Longhorn85]

LOL...failed at marraige.

Your words, not mine:


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7105155&postcount=2

 

[heatherrae]

Your words, not mine:


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7105155&postcount=2

I'm laughing at the IRONY of you criticizing a failed marraige given the fact that you commit adultery and then throw stones at others for contributing to divorce. Looks like maybe you should focus on keeping your OWN marraige together and improving your OWN MORALS rather than casting dispersions on single moms.

I wasn't the only single mom offended by you in this thread. Trust me.

 

[Longhorn85]

So now you are admitting you failed? What about your little "lol" above?

Was that a mistruth just like your baseless accusations about my life? You lash out at others trying to drag them down into your own misery.

Not a way to live.

 

[heatherrae]

So now you are admitting you failed? What about your little "lol" above?

Was that a mistruth just like your baseless accusations about my life? You lash out at others trying to drag them down into your own misery.

Not a way to live.

LOL...mistruth....DENY IT THEN. DENY IT! LOL....be a man.

My lol was at an adulterer talking about a failed marraige. It's ironic. I explained that above, but you missed it, as usual.

 

[heatherrae]

Oh, and the only person trying to drag others down in this thread is YOU. You start a thread lambasting single moms, homosexuals, etc and then can't take the heat and won't answer questions about your own life.

So, once and for all, clear it up for us. Have you ever had sex outside of marraige or commited adultery? If you had not, then you would be a liberty to voice your negative opinions on single parents. Otherwise, I think you better get your own viewpoints squared up with your OWN behavior first.

 

[heatherrae]

My point is that our society discourages marriage by making abortion easy, shacking up acceptable, glorifying single parenthood, etc.

and before you say again that you didn't attack single parents, I'll supply one of MANY quotes in which you did, just so we don't get lost in the shuffle here.

 

[mrplunkey]

That's the point of this thread. Clearly there will be circumstances that make this impossible, and children can, and often do, thrive in such situations, thanks to awesome single parents. I have made that clear multiple times in this post.

My argument is that society should therefore encourage marriage and strong families, since it is the optimal solution. In some ways it does (tax code, e.g.).

In most ways, it doesn't, in fact, it discourages marriage, as I have itemized ad nauseum.

I completely agree with this statement. Marginalizing marriage into glorified dating or cohabitation scenarios like Hollywood stars do isn't that bad when both parents control their own schedule and make $10M+ per year. But when that $25,000 per year wage earner thinks he or she can do the same thing, its usually the children who spend the rest of their lives impoverished and ill-prepared for real life.

 

[heatherrae]

I completely agree with this statement. Marginalizing marriage into glorified dating or cohabitation scenarios like Hollywood stars do isn't that bad when both parents control their own schedule and make $10M+ per year. But when that $25,000 per year wage earner thinks he or she can do the same thing, its usually the children who spend the rest of their lives impoverished and ill-prepared for real life.

you are a divorced, single parent. I think you are included on the list of the destroyers of the institution of marraige as well, according to longhorn

 

[Longhorn85]

....be a man.

Hmmmm. Given your track record with choosing men as mates (divorce, physical abuse), I am not inclined to adapt to your idea of what makes a man worthy.

I sincerely offer you this: I hope for the sake of your unborn child that someday you are fortunate enough to have a relationship with a man of my caliber.

Hint: If you meet such a man, out of respect for yourself and your child, accept nothing less than a vow of marriage.

 

[heatherrae]

Hmmmm. Given your track record with choosing men as mates (divorce, physical abuse), I am not inclined to adapt to your idea of what makes a man worthy.

I sincerely offer you this: I hope for the sake of your unborn child that someday you are fortunate enough to have a relationship with a man of my caliber.

Hint: If you meet such a man, out of respect for yourself and your child, accept nothing less than a vow of marriage.

The man whom I married far surpassed your character. He wasn't a hypocrite or an adulterer.

I don't think I'll begin taking marraige advice from an adulterer, but thanks anyway.

 

[mrplunkey]

you are a divorced, single parent. I think you are included on the list of the destroyers of the institution of marraige as well, according to longhorn

And I agree that my choice to file for divorce weakened the institution. That doesn't neccessarily make me a bad person, but it definately makes me a contributor to the problem. And yes, it's a problem... more like a crisis.

Even before I filed in November 2005 I started making plans to compensate for the loss my kids would experience. I'll never replace the nuclear family unit, but there are other things I have tried to do to compensate. Fortunately both me and my ex are financially well-off so none of our standards of living have diminished. If anything, mine and the children have increased considerably because we no longer have my ex telling us that we should be pinching pennies even in the face of having more than we can realistically spend.

So what does this mean for me? Well, it means I'll never work a full-time job again because it would detract from time with my children. And since I don't plan to remarry the best I can offer a partner is 7 out of 14 nights with me. I certainly don't have "sleep overs" with my companions when I have children -- and I don't parade them in front of my children either. Thus far, they have briefly met *one* person I've seen since the divorce was finalized in August of last year.

I've done other things too, like counciling for the children, more one-on-one time with them, as well as an endless string of distractions to insure they don't wallow in the fallout of the divorce. But that's another story all together.

So long story short. Am I part of the problem? Most definately. Am I doing what I can to compensate for a horrible situation? Most definately. Had I thought my divorce would lower my children's standard of living or somehow otherwise compromise their future you can rest assured I'd still be in that incredibly unhappy marriage -- and wouldn't think twice about it.

I'm not the least bit offended by Longhorn's post either, but then again I'm a personal responsibility advocate even when it's time for me to accept some of that responsiblity.

 

[biteme]

A hating we will go, a hating we will go. High ho the derry-o a hating we will go.

 

[heatherrae]

And I agree that my choice to file for divorce weakened the institution. That doesn't neccessarily make me a bad person, but it definately makes me a contributor to the problem. And yes, it's a problem... more like a crisis.

Even before I filed in November 2005 I started making plans to compensate for the loss my kids would experience. I'll never replace the nuclear family unit, but there are other things I have tried to do to compensate. Fortunately both me and my ex are financially well-off so none of our standards of living have diminished. If anything, mine and the children have increased considerably because we no longer have my ex telling us that we should be pinching pennies even in the face of having more than we can realistically spend.

So what does this mean for me? Well, it means I'll never work a full-time job again because it would detract from time with my children. And since I don't plan to remarry the best I can offer a partner is 7 out of 14 nights with me. I certainly don't have "sleep overs" with my companions when I have children -- and I don't parade them in front of my children either. Thus far, they have briefly met *one* person I've seen since the divorce was finalized in August of last year.

I've done other things too, like counciling for the children, more one-on-one time with them, as well as an endless string of distractions to insure they don't wallow in the fallout of the divorce. But that's another story all together.

So long story short. Am I part of the problem? Most definately. Am I doing what I can to compensate for a horrible situation? Most definately. Had I thought my divorce would lower my children's standard of living or somehow otherwise compromise their future you can rest assured I'd still be in that incredibly unhappy marriage -- and wouldn't think twice about it.

I'm not the least bit offended by Longhorn's post either, but then again I'm a personal responsibility advocate even when it's time for me to accept some of that responsiblity.

So, with you, it was different to get a divorce because you had more money than the average person?

Or it wasn't okay and maybe you should remarry her just to encourage the institution of marraige?

Wasn't it a very contentious and heated divorce?

Gee, I can't keep following yours and longhorns rules. They seem to change when they come to your own "special circumstances"

 

[heatherrae]

Personally, I think it is fine that you divorced, plunkey. I just don't get how you think that your divorce undermines anyone else's choice to marry or stay married.

 

[Longhorn85]

Am I part of the problem?

You may see it that way, but that is not what I have said in this thread. My position has been that in America marriage as an institution is not encouraged enough by our laws, mores, attitudes.

The original post shows that marriage and family benefits individuals and society as a whole, so it is in our collective interest to protect it and encourage it.

 

[alien amp pharm]

If you do not see marriage as a better enviroment for kids then you are blind.

That being said marriage is becoming non-idealistic. In the old days you married and had kids to survive. You also had limits on who you could meet to potentialy marry.

Fast forward to the present. People do not have to marry to survive. Food, money, etc are all plentiful. Also you can meet people across the globe simply by logging onto the internet. People are also more sexually immoral and divorce doesn't carry the stigma it use to.

All these things add up to why marriage is vastly becoming "a thing of the past" and IMO a reason why we have such a messed up generation of kids.

 

[Gymgurl]

^^ I knew I liked you

 

[Gymgurl]

And I agree that my choice to file for divorce weakened the institution. That doesn't neccessarily make me a bad person, but it definately makes me a contributor to the problem. And yes, it's a problem... more like a crisis.

Even before I filed in November 2005 I started making plans to compensate for the loss my kids would experience. I'll never replace the nuclear family unit, but there are other things I have tried to do to compensate. Fortunately both me and my ex are financially well-off so none of our standards of living have diminished. If anything, mine and the children have increased considerably because we no longer have my ex telling us that we should be pinching pennies even in the face of having more than we can realistically spend.



I've done other things too, like counciling for the children, more one-on-one time with them, as well as an endless string of distractions to insure they don't wallow in the fallout of the divorce. But that's another story all together.

So long story short. Am I part of the problem? Most definately. Am I doing what I can to compensate for a horrible situation? Most definately. Had I thought my divorce would lower my children's standard of living or somehow otherwise compromise their future you can rest assured I'd still be in that incredibly unhappy marriage -- and wouldn't think twice about it.

I'm not the least bit offended by Longhorn's post either, but then again I'm a personal responsibility advocate even when it's time for me to accept some of that responsiblity.

I love ya!

Divorce can not be side stepped in all situations.
You have values and morals and that will be a huge factor in rasing your kids...such as no sleepovers ect....Your a good dad

 

[heatherrae]

We have just as many "messed up kids" in married homes. Shitty parents are shitty whether they stay married or get a divorce -- the same with good parents. Sometimes divorce is less destructive for the kids than staying together in misery. In the past, people didn't have the resources or ability to just get a divorce. Does that mean their lives and their kids lives were better because they were forced to stay in an unhappy marraige. I would think not.

 

[javaguru]

http://www.trinity.edu/~mkearl/fam-div.html

"The belief that rising divorce rates indicate the dissolution of the family--and hence of society, given that the family is its central building block--is far from new. Timothy Dwight, president of Yale, complained in 1816 that marriage and the family were going to the dogs in Connecticut because one marriage in a hundred was ending in divorce. Between 1869 and 1889, the divorce rate increased 150%. It jumped another 250% between 1960 and 1980. After peaking in 1981 and declining through the mid-eighties, the rate leveled off at about 4.7 divorces per 1,000 population in the late 1980s and early 1990s before again declining to 4.2 in 1998. Interestingly, while divorces overall dropped between 1981 and 1990, there was a 16 percent rise in divorces of couples married 30 years or more. For the first time in history, a married couple is as likely to be parted by divorce as by death."

 

[Gymgurl]

Society on a whole has messed up marriage

 

[heatherrae]

Society on a whole has messed up marriage

No it hasn't. You just have more of a choice do what you like now. No one forces you to get married, stay married, or get a divorce. It is totally up to you and your spouse.

I think that these self-proclaimed "personal responsibility" gurus are ironically scapegoating other people instead of saying each person should take personal responsibility to keep their own marraiges together. It couldn't be their fault! It's the gays fault, the single mom's fault, the non-christians fault, but surely not up to each person's own free will.

They also think everyone is wrong if their families don't look just like their own.

 

[Bikini Mod]

http://www.trinity.edu/~mkearl/fam-div.html

"The belief that rising divorce rates indicate the dissolution of the family--and hence of society, given that the family is its central building block--is far from new. Timothy Dwight, president of Yale, complained in 1816 that marriage and the family were going to the dogs in Connecticut because one marriage in a hundred was ending in divorce. Between 1869 and 1889, the divorce rate increased 150%. It jumped another 250% between 1960 and 1980. After peaking in 1981 and declining through the mid-eighties, the rate leveled off at about 4.7 divorces per 1,000 population in the late 1980s and early 1990s before again declining to 4.2 in 1998. Interestingly, while divorces overall dropped between 1981 and 1990, there was a 16 percent rise in divorces of couples married 30 years or more. For the first time in history, a married couple is as likely to be parted by divorce as by death."

Interesting information.

Maybe we should stop pointing the finger at marriage/divorce/cohabitating/single parenting for the "breakdown of the family" and just point it where it belongs = POOR PARENTING. Apparently these people do not understand the concept of it taking an entire village to raise just one child. Let us all be responsible for our behavior when in the company of ANYONE's children.

I am actually quite intrigued by this notion that because I chose to get a divorce I have somehow influenced the choices of others.

Damn, I didnt realize that I was so powerful.

I certainly hope that I can influence many more by the fact that I have remarried to an amazing man of outstanding strength and character as he has WILLINGLY chosen to parent my girls as well as put their spermdonor in his proper place.... which isn't for me to decide.

To marry for the sake of marrying is silly.

To marry for the notion of love is even sillier still as love is what happens somewhere during the journey of marriage.

God isn't why a marriage stays intact. Conversely the lack of God is not responsible for the dissolution of one.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is the only reason for the health of a marriage, the dissolution of such a union or for the lack of one to begin with.

If more people where more concerned with tending to their own gardens methinks they would have too little time to notice what was going on in the yards of their neighbors.

Just my humble .02

 

[heatherrae]

Interesting information.

Maybe we should stop pointing the finger at marriage/divorce/cohabitating/single parenting for the "breakdown of the family" and just point it where it belongs = POOR PARENTING. Apparently these people do not understand the concept of it taking an entire village to raise just one child. Let us all be responsible for our behavior when in the company of ANYONE's children.

I am actually quite intrigued by this notion that because I chose to get a divorce I have somehow influenced the choices of others.

Damn, I didnt realize that I was so powerful.

I certainly hope that I can influence many more by the fact that I have remarried to an amazing man of outstanding strength and character as he has WILLINGLY chosen to parent my girls as well as put their spermdonor in his proper place.... which isn't for me to decide.

To marry for the sake of marrying is silly.

To marry for the notion of love is even sillier still as love is what happens somewhere during the journey of marriage.

God isn't why a marriage stays intact. Conversely the lack of God is not responsible for the dissolution of one.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is the only reason for the health of a marriage, the dissolution of such a union or for the lack of one to begin with.

If more people where more concerned with tending to their own gardens methinks they would have too little time to notice what was going on in the yards of their neighbors.

Just my humble .02

AMEN!

 

[Longhorn85]

I am actually quite intrigued by this notion that because I chose to get a divorce I have somehow influenced the choices of others.

That notion came from HR's misinterpretation of the point of this thread and her subsequent emotional rant(s).

 

[heatherrae]

That notion came from HR's misinterpretation of the point of this thread and her subsequent emotional rant(s).

Let her read the thread and decide for herself how to interpret your hateful dispersions single moms, homosexuals, and non-christians. She is a smart woman. She can make up her own mind. I'm not the only one who was offended by what you said. I'm just the most vocal. You're trying to backpedal now. I would have at least an iota of respect if you stood behind your own bigotry instead of now trying to mask it.

 

[Longhorn85]

I'm not the only one who was offended by what you said. I'm just the most vocal.

As I am not the only one who recognizes you for what you are: an overly emotional, irrational woman who has made bad choices in life.

The only reason you resent this thread about marriage is because it makes you realize how screwed up your own situation is.

 

[heatherrae]

As I am not the only one who recognizes you for what you are: an overly emotional, irrational woman who has made bad choices in life.

The only reason you resent this thread about marriage is because it makes you realize how screwed up your own situation is.

I don't consider my own situation "screwed up." You are the one placing that value choice on it. I consider my upcoming child a blessing, even though I know I will have to protect her from hearing hateful people such as you tell her how our little family isn't good enough because it isn't just like yours.

Bad choices? ROFL. I went from poverty, to college and law school and a six figure income all from the sweat of my brow. I'm infinitely proud of the decisions I have made in my life, including my child.

How about your bad choices, Longhorn? Since you want to throw stones again about bad choices, was your adultery a good choice?

 

[Bikini Mod]

I fully understand the discourse, emotion and all as I have feelings for both sides, believe it or not.

Longhorne I have tremendous respect for you because you were smart enough to choose an excellent wife and even better mother to your children. There aren't many men like you out there who willingly admit that there wife is next to God in their eyes, especially given some of your admitted shortcomings. (Which WE ALL have.)

Having said that I have to say that I do not understand why a man as intelligent as you would feel the need to chastise other women who have not yet found a man such as yourself. You know, one that willingly admits and treats his woman with all the respect and reverence that she deserves.

Maybe you were using a sort of reverse psychology telling women such as Heatherrae that she IS a woman amongst women and that she shouldn't continue to sell herself short by wasting her time and affection on a man that is not as GOOD as you....?

She knows her fiancee was less than stellar and it took A LOT of balls for her to up and leave. Not many woman would have had the strength to do so. Goodness knows it took me a beatdown to recognize just how low I was setting the bar for myself AND my children.

But look how well I turned out. You have no idea the hell my family has and IS going through, but in the end it will all have been worth it as my children are learning how to persevere and stay strong in light of THE MOST DIFFICULT circumstances! They learned that FROM ME... period.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for both of you and this thread has saddened me. Not because of all the points of view that have come to light, but because of the personal attacks that came along with them.

Longhorne I think I understand what YOU were trying to say, but the manner with which you delivered your message caused its effectiveness to be lost and mired in hate. Somehow I dont think that was what you had in mind when you began this thread.... was it?

 

[heatherrae]

He has hardly masked his hatred of single moms in this thread. I have NO respect for him anymore, BM. How hypocritical is it for a man to throw stones at other people for being the breakdown of marraige when they have committed adultery? How hypocritical is it for them to then give marraige advice and tell you to go find a man as good as them?

I'm nto saying that mistakes in marraige make someone a terrible person. What I am saying is that people who have made those mistakes really shouldn't be pointing fingers at other for the breakdown of marraige. The hypocrisy and hatred make them terrible.

 

[Longhorn85]

Longhorne I think I understand what YOU were trying to say, but the manner with which you delivered your message caused its effectiveness to be lost and mired in hate. Somehow I dont think that was what you had in mind when you began this thread.... was it?

As I often do, I posted up a newsworthy article and stated my opinion while soliticing the opinion of others. There was nothing personal about it. One of the first responses was from HR, who immediately took it as a personal attack, and began to attack me personally, actually slanderous in nature because she knows nothing about my marriage.

Eventually, I responded in kind.

 

[Bikini Mod]

He has hardly masked his hatred of single moms in this thread. I have NO respect for him anymore, BM. How hypocritical is it for a man to throw stones at other people for being the breakdown of marraige when they have committed adultery? How hypocritical is it for them to then give marraige advice and tell you to go find a man as good as them?

I'm nto saying that mistakes in marraige make someone a terrible person. What I am saying is that people who have made those mistakes really shouldn't be pointing fingers at other for the breakdown of marraige. The hypocrisy and hatred make them terrible.

As I often do, I posted up a newsworthy article and stated my opinion while soliticing the opinion of others. There was nothing personal about it. One of the first responses was from HR, who immediately took it as a personal attack, and began to attack me personally, actually slanderous in nature because she knows nothing about my marriage.

Eventually, I responded in kind.

Seems to me that you both have a valid point.

This is why we must always be mindfull (God knows that I have bigtime committed this faux pas a time or six thousand in my life) that others may not always interpret our words the way we meant them.

The pen is mightier than the sword... is it not?

 

[heatherrae]

No, initially I responded by saying that the article was not saying anything degrading about the institution of marraige, and that it was merely pointing out a statistical trend.

You came back and said:

My point is that our society discourages marriage by making abortion easy, shacking up acceptable, glorifying single parenthood, etc.

Yeah, I find that offensive, and I find you offensive. I started by merely pointing out that I don't think that people within these groups influence others to get divorces or stay married.

You started up with the personal attacks.

 

[Longhorn85]

You started up with the personal attacks.

Only if you take my opinion that marriage and family is better for kids as a personal attack, which you apparently do.

 

[heatherrae]

The only thing that I have pointed out about you personally is that you have probably had premarital sex and that I recall you saying in an old thread that you had committed adultery. I would not bring it up if it were not germane to the issue at hand in that you are hardly one to comment on single moms when those unions of yours could have resulted in a single parent situation.

In return, you told me about how my child would suffer because of my "bad choices" and how I'm "40 and living with my parents" none of which is remotely true. You couldn't even get my damn age right. You even went in another thread and called me a liar about being 1/4 native american. Yet, I am the "emotional" one because I am a woman who is arguing. You argue and think you are just so damned clever....lol. Foolish.

 

[heatherrae]

Only if you take my opinion that marriage and family is better for kids as a personal attack, which you apparently do.

LOL...BACKPEDAL as fast as you can. People can read the thread and see your hatred for themselves.

 

[Longhorn85]

LOL...BACKPEDAL as fast as you can. People can read the thread and see your hatred for themselves.

On the contrary, I have been consistent from post #1, as anyone can read here.

In return, you told me about how my child would suffer because of my "bad choices" and how I'm "40 and living with my parents" none of which is remotely true. You couldn't even get my damn age right.

So my I see my decision to give you a taste of your own medicine was effective. It is not nice to make assumptions about others, is it?

 

[javaguru]

http://ph.state.al.us/chs/HealthStatistics/Tables/2002/AVS02_77.htm

The US Divorce rate was 4.0/1,000 in 2001,in 1951-1953 it was 2.5/1,000. Divorce has always been a major issue in US society. Heck, in 1946 it as 4.3/1,000 in the United States.

 

[heatherrae]

On the contrary, I have been consistent from post #1, as anyone can read here.



So my I see my decision to give you a taste of your own medicine was effective. It is not nice to make assumptions about others, is it?

I didn't make an assumption. You said in another thread that you had commited adultery.

 

[Longhorn85]

I didn't make an assumption. You said in another thread that you had commited adultery.

You've said that several times but have shown me nothing.

 

[heatherrae]

anyway, everything has been said that needs to be said between us. Just let people read the thread for themselves instead of coming back and trying to editorialize to give your past comments a different tone and meaning than the original. Let people read the whole thing. Man up and stand behind your original words. I am. Let people read for themselves. Don't spin your story now. It is demeaning to the intellegence of the readers.

 

[Longhorn85]

Man up

Like I said before, your idea of a worthy man does not measure up with me.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Like I said before, your idea of a worthy man does not measure up with me.

While this may be true that isn't necessarily an assault on her intelligence or character, but speaks more to the LACK of intelligence and character present in MOST MALES in the world today.

See a man can take off his hat and crap in it, place it back on his head and he will still be considered a man. A woman can NEVER do this as she will ALWAYS be left holding the bag and shouldering the responsibility as well as the blame.

 

[mrplunkey]

So, with you, it was different to get a divorce because you had more money than the average person?

Or it wasn't okay and maybe you should remarry her just to encourage the institution of marraige?

Wasn't it a very contentious and heated divorce?

Gee, I can't keep following yours and longhorns rules. They seem to change when they come to your own "special circumstances"

Perhaps thats because you consider anything that's said as a personal attack on you. Try letting that go for a second, and read the following paragraphs:

I had to make a go/no-go decision on my unhappy marriage. I justified my decision to divorce because I could and was willing to make dramatic adjustments in my personal life and because our economic situation would not degrade as a result of the divorce.

And yes, it was contentious over money and over the children. Now, my ex wife has more money than she would ever realistically spend and my children are comfortable in a week-on/week-off arrangement.

So did I degrade the institution of marriage? You sure bet I did. Did I make a selfish choice because I was unhappy? Yup. But the even greater tragedy is when a go/no-go decision is made on a divorce and the personal and financial adjustments don't get planned and implemented. I have no doubt that the few successful divorces (if there is such a thing) probably drive slews of terribly disastrous ones.

If I had the decision to make 100 times in a row, I'd make the same call 100 times again. But that doesn't change the fact that I degraded the institution of marriage and contributed to the problem. You won't see me running around as the "proud single parent" or defiantly talking about what I do and don't need. What you'd hear me talking about is trying to make the most out of a miserable situation that I originally chose to enter into years ago -- and there is *nothing* noble or righteous about that.

 

[javaguru]

The "institution" of marriage, the only time it's good to be institutionalized???? lol

 

[Gymgurl]

Lol...

 

[redsamurai]

Its good and dangerous at the same time. Generation upon generation of highly-educated, highly-intelligent, well-to-do kids is a good thing. But we also have generation upon generation of institutionalized, under-educated, drug-engrossed, poor kids as well.

Now here's the rub. Capitalism, the best and most proven system in the world, is based on competition. So we have one class emerging that is uniquely positioned to compete and another class emerging that is wholey and inadequately equipped to compete. The risk of our society bifercating and having no middle class is great.

which is why our public schools need to be made the best in the world......and the adequate money be put into it and the whole damn thing overhauled. But I thought you weren't a proponent of public education??

 

[redsamurai]

In most ways, it doesn't, in fact, it discourages marriage, as I have itemized ad nauseum.

.

no it doesnt...........every where you turn in this fucking country there is pressure to get married and have kids. It's A GOOD THING THAT PEOPLE ARE WISENING UP to the fact that hasty marriage can ruin your fucking life.

 

[-SD-]

which is why our public schools need to be made the best in the world......and the adequate money be put into it and the whole damn thing overhauled. But I thought you weren't a proponent of public education??

Just not a proponent of Bad public education, which is the majority of public education. So you could say he is against public education by de facto. Chucking more money at it wont fix the problem either as evidenced by the legions of private schools who turn out a much higher quality product with less costs.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Good Lord does anyone else feel the need to put their waders on? The hypocrisy on this thread makes me want to vomit.

It's really very simple: If one thinks that the institution of marriage is being threatened by divorce - then as with abortion - if you dont agree with the practise JUST DONT HAVE ONE. Shut your mouth and go about your business as ye who is without sin should cast the first stone.

Pay more attention to your own garden for a change then perhaps the garden of your neighbor will be of less interest.

 

[Gymgurl]

Good Lord does anyone else feel the need to put their waders on? The hypocrisy on this thread makes me want to vomit.

It's really very simple: If one thinks that the institution of marriage is being threatened by divorce - then as with abortion - if you dont agree with the practise JUST DONT HAVE ONE. Shut your mouth and go about your business.

Pay more attention to your own garden for a change then perhaps the garden of your neighbor will be of less interest.

Okay this is making alot of sense....I think everyone took it way to personal...I have a hard time in these threads because of that. I never post much cause I know Ill get heated up lol.

thanks BM

 

[javaguru]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://ph.state.al.us/chs/HealthSta...02/AVS02_77.htm

The US Divorce rate was 4.0/1,000 in 2001,in 1951-1953 it was 2.5/1,000. Divorce has always been a major issue in US society. Heck, in 1946 it as 4.3/1,000 in the United States.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Just not a proponent of Bad public education, which is the majority of public education. So you could say he is against public education by de facto. Chucking more money at it wont fix the problem either as evidenced by the legions of private schools who turn out a much higher quality product with less costs.

Or one could simply homeschool their children but there are very few parents who would take on such a tremendous commitment and responsibility.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Okay this is making alot of sense....I think everyone took it way to personal...I have a hard time in these threads because of that. I never post much cause I know Ill get heated up lol.

thanks BM

Hell MUST BE freezing over. LOL

You mean that I am actually making sense for a change?

 

[Gymgurl]

Must be that marriage thing lol

 

[mrplunkey]

which is why our public schools need to be made the best in the world......and the adequate money be put into it and the whole damn thing overhauled. But I thought you weren't a proponent of public education??

Yes, by all means, lets nationalize education so the poorest children can be even more fucked-up than before. That government magic bullet will sure fix it!

Typical response... we just need to put more money into government. Some people never learn from past mistakes.

Now we could, just for fun, address the real issue of generational welfare recipients who are wards of the state and crank-out crack addicted kids but that would be too pragmatic. Even if you spend $10M in education on a crack-addicted, fetal alcohol syndrome baby from a third-generation welfare mother who isn't even sure who the father is, chances are he's not going to be a productive member of society.

 

[heatherrae]

Yes, by all means, lets nationalize education so the poorest children can be even more fucked-up than before. That government magic bullet will sure fix it!

Typical response... we just need to put more money into government. Some people never learn from past mistakes.

Now we could, just for fun, address the real issue of generational welfare recipients who are wards of the state and crank-out crack addicted kids but that would be too pragmatic. Even if you spend $10M in education on a crack-addicted, fetal alcohol syndrome baby from a third-generation welfare mother who isn't even sure who the father is, chances are he's not going to be a productive member of society.

good God, help us. Deliver us from another MrPlunkey "fuck the poor" tirade.

 

[alien amp pharm]

Yes, by all means, lets nationalize education so the poorest children can be even more fucked-up than before. That government magic bullet will sure fix it!

Typical response... we just need to put more money into government. Some people never learn from past mistakes.

Now we could, just for fun, address the real issue of generational welfare recipients who are wards of the state and crank-out crack addicted kids but that would be too pragmatic. Even if you spend $10M in education on a crack-addicted, fetal alcohol syndrome baby from a third-generation welfare mother who isn't even sure who the father is, chances are he's not going to be a productive member of society.

Agreed.

If the parents are worthless then it's probable their kids will be too.

A healthy stable parental environment (i.e. marriage) will cause the kid to want to suceed and achieve whereas deadbeat parents will surely cause the opposite.

Throwing more of my tax money at shitty education isn't going to change a thing. Last time I checked they did not teach much on marriage & parenting at public schools. If anything they are teaching the opposite with all the liberal PC crap.

 

[-SD-]

Or one could simply homeschool their children but there are very few parents who would take on such a tremendous commitment and responsibility.

Quality of product is always a function of effort put into said product. No different for childrens education.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Sixth grade was the hardest 4 years of my life, thank God for free education and people that learned to read finally.

 

[heatherrae]

Let me get this straight. Plunkey and aap are opposed to public education and want only the children of elite families to be able to get an education?

Don't you think that you would create more cost in the long run by having such a large group of uneducated people.

I grew up poor and did okay with an education and have never been on welfare or public assistance of any kind (except if you consider pell grants and student loans public assistance). Many kids make their way out of poverty through education.

 

[-SD-]

Agreed.

If the parents are worthless then it's probable their kids will be too.

A healthy stable parental environment (i.e. marriage) will cause the kid to want to suceed and achieve whereas deadbeat parents will surely cause the opposite.

Throwing more of my tax money at shitty education isn't going to change a thing. Last time I checked they did not teach much on marriage & parenting at public schools. If anything they are teaching the opposite with all the liberal PC crap.

Do you really want public schools teaching kids about their idea of marriage and parenting? Since supposedly money is the biggest cause of divorce, in high school kid need to learn financial literacy above and beyond simple economics classes.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Hmmmmmm interesting theories up in this bitch.

The poor and less advantaged need be exterminated and our society will greatly benefit.

Correct me if I am wrong. But wasnt there some dude who already put that theory into motion? I thought he wasn't thought of too highly for it.

But hey, at least he tried. You can't blame a brother for wanting to better the world.

 

[alien amp pharm]

Do you really want public schools teaching kids about their idea of marriage and parenting? Since supposedly money is the biggest cause of divorce, in high school kid need to learn financial literacy above and beyond simple economics classes.

No. I never said I did.
Public education is too liberal. Teaching about marriage and parenting would only make the problem worse as it would be entirely political correctness.

Money is the biggest cause of divorce? I disagree. Despite what CNN might have told you I do not know any of my divorced friends in their situation due to money. I'd opt to say there are numerous causes for divorce but it's more about selfishness, incompatibilty, and spoiled people inable to compromise.

Regardless the causes, throwing MORE money at public education is going to do nothing to remedy the problem of divorce.

 

[heatherrae]

Hmmmmmm interesting theories up in this bitch.

The poor and less advantaged need be exterminated and our society will greatly benefit.

Correct me if I am wrong. But wasnt there some dude who already put that theory into motion? I thought he wasn't thought of too highly for it.

But hey, at least he tried. You can't blame a brother for wanting to better the world.

LOL...henchmen in this thread. ;-)

 

[Frisky]

Only if you take my opinion that marriage and family is better for kids as a personal attack, which you apparently do.

Marriage does not constitute a sound family, and family does not constitute a sound marriage. I also thought this way, but was sadly disappointed in the process.