Lyme Disease

[guest username]

I trained and worked at hospitals where Lyme was seen very, very frequently. A PICC line is rather extreme in my experience in seeing probably at least 100 patients with serology-confirmed Lyme disease.

How was neuroborreliosis diagnosed? I'm assuming you had an LP?

 

[blueta2]

I trained and worked at hospitals where Lyme was seen very, very frequently. A PICC line is rather extreme in my experience in seeing probably at least 100 patients with serology-confirmed Lyme disease.

How was neuroborreliosis diagnosed? I'm assuming you had an LP?

A pic line is usually given when the lyme does not respond to orals and or the lyme symtoms are severe.
I was dx through Igenex. There are no proper tests in canada for lyme

What state was the hosp in where you worked?

 

[guest username]

A pic line is usually given when the lyme does not respond to orals and or the lyme symtoms are severe.
I was dx through Igenex. There are no proper tests in canada for lyme

What state was the hosp in where you worked?

I'm familiar with PICC lines. That wasn't the question. A PICC line is rather extreme for Lyme disease though.

Were you diagnosed by way of a lumbar puncture? Neuroborreliosis can only be diagnosed by a lumbar puncture. Serology does not diagnose neuroborreliosis, and in fact will only show if you've ever been exposed to Lyme, not whether it is currently active.

I will not mention which state or hospital I worked because I try to maintain my privacy. I will say that it's "closely affiliated with the person who originally described Lyme disease in the US."

The Lyme experts at that hospital -- who are world renown and who speak at numerous medical gatherings -- are not convinced that chronic Lyme disease exists. They thing that an autoimmune response can be triggered by the Borrelia burgdoferi bacteria, and that can cause the body to attack its own joints. However, at this point, treatment with antibiotics is a futile measure since the person's body is already producing antibodies that injure the joints. It's a similar process to rheumatoid arthritis.

 

[blueta2]

I'm familiar with PICC lines. That wasn't the question. A PICC line is rather extreme for Lyme disease though.

Were you diagnosed by way of a lumbar puncture? Neuroborreliosis can only be diagnosed by a lumbar puncture. Serology does not diagnose neuroborreliosis, and in fact will only show if you've ever been exposed to Lyme, not whether it is currently active.

I will not mention which state or hospital I worked because I try to maintain my privacy. I will say that it's "closely affiliated with the person who originally described Lyme disease."

The Lyme experts at that hospital -- who are world renown and who speak at numerous medical gatherings -- are not convinced that chronic Lyme disease exists. They thing that an autoimmune response can be triggered by the Borrelia burgdoferi bacteria, and that can cause the body to attack its own joints. However, at this point, treatment with antibiotics is a futile measure since the person's body is already producing antibodies that injure the joints. It's a similar process to rheumatoid arthritis.

Thanks for your info, Not all accurate though.
A spinal tap also does not prove + for lyme. Serology can detect lyme and does detect lyme. Though with serology you can have false negatives.
Most lyme dx are done on a clinical basis.

The only Lyme experts are actually LLMD (lyme literate dr's) and I can assure you, they are not saying lyme does not exist.
Who are these dr's? Give names to back it up?

Treating lyme with abx is not futile, but can be if treated too long w/out results. Abx take the germ load down and one then has to build a stronger immune system from there.

Anyway, I'll let RottenWillow take over from here.

 

[guest username]

As I mentioned earlier, serology does NOT demonstrate active Lyme disease. It demonstrates exposure to it. Lyme serologies use an enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay to test for IgG antibodies to Lyme (a Lyme titre). If this is detected, then it is confirmed by a Western blot. Very few laboratories are able to test for IgM antibodies to Lyme (which would imply a more active or recent infection). Where I worked, we were able to do IgM antibodies. Where I work now we aren't able to do them. In cases of active disease, this titre is elevated in about 70% of individuals. The remainder have only a small baseline titre.

Yes, you are correct. Lyme disease is a clinical diagnosis. I frequently diagnosed it based on rash, Bell's palsy presentation, etc. However, neuroborreliosis is isolated to neural tissue, and it requires a lumbar puncture to demonstrate Lyme being present in the cerebrospinal fluid. One can suspect neuroborreliosis, but to definitively diagnose it, you require a lumbar puncture. It's like diagnosing someone with a MRSA abscess -- you can suspect it and treat it, but you can only definitively diagnose MRSA with a culture swab and antibiotic sensitivities. To diagnose you with neuroborreliosis without CSF B. borgdoferi antibody index is really doing yourself a disservice.

LLMD? That must be a Canadian term. There is no board-specialty certification process for Lyme-trained physicians in the US. However, the hospital I worked at was the US leader in Lyme research.

Remember, antibiotics are not without side effects. You will likely think much differently about the benign nature of antibiotics if you develop C. difficile colitis from them.

You really should do more research prior to your antibiotics. Steroids have shown benefit in people with post-Lyme disorder. Antibiotics are pointless for post-Lyme, and a PICC line is not a benign thing. I've seen my fair share of people with clots, infections, etc. (I'm not talking about line clots; I'm talking about DVT's.)

 

[blueta2]

As I mentioned earlier, serology does NOT demonstrate active Lyme disease. It demonstrates exposure to it. Lyme serologies use an enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay to test for IgG antibodies to Lyme (a Lyme titre). If this is detected, then it is confirmed by a Western blot. Very few laboratories are able to test for IgM antibodies to Lyme (which would imply a more active or recent infection). Where I worked, we were able to do IgM antibodies. Where I work now we aren't able to do them. In cases of active disease, this titre is elevated in about 70% of individuals. The remainder have only a small baseline titre.

Yes, you are correct. Lyme disease is a clinical diagnosis. I frequently diagnosed it based on rash, Bell's palsy presentation, etc. However, neuroborreliosis is isolated to neural tissue, and it requires a lumbar puncture to demonstrate Lyme being present in the cerebrospinal fluid. One can suspect neuroborreliosis, but to definitively diagnose it, you require a lumbar puncture. It's like diagnosing someone with a MRSA abscess -- you can suspect it and treat it, but you can only definitively diagnose MRSA with a culture swab and antibiotic sensitivities. To diagnose you with neuroborreliosis without CSF B. borgdoferi antibody index is really doing yourself a disservice.

LLMD? That must be a Canadian term. There is no board-specialty certification process for Lyme-trained physicians in the US. However, the hospital I worked at was the US leader in Lyme research.

Remember, antibiotics are not without side effects. You will likely think much differently about the benign nature of antibiotics if you develop C. difficile colitis from them.

You really should do more research prior to your antibiotics. Steroids have shown benefit in people with post-Lyme disorder. Antibiotics are pointless for post-Lyme, and a PICC line is not a benign thing. I've seen my fair share of people with clots, infections, etc. (I'm not talking about line clots; I'm talking about DVT's.)

Well aren't you so smart Dr Swat ;-)


Listen, LLMD is a universal term for a Lyme Literate Dr.
In fact there are only 2 LLMD's in all of Canada. They are mostly in the US.

I respect that you have a medical degree, but I am lyme literate (as lyme literate as my own dr and as most lyme patients are) and can tell you that most of your information is incorrect.

For example, lyme bacteria feed of steroids and most people who have lyme and are dx with lupus and/ or RA and are given steroids go into a free fall and actually crash.

I was on 4 diff abx full dose for 4 months and yes had a lot of side effects, but I have less symptoms now than before I took them. I'm now treating with homeopathy and soon with herbs.

I didn't fear c diff because I was taking Flagyl along with S Boulardii, so I had no fear.

You may be a Doc with lot of knowledge about other infections, but Lyme is not one of them.
I can connect you with some of the best Lyme dr's in the world who can give you a quick 101 if you really want to learn
And PLEASE do not treat lyme patients with Steroids. You will kill them.
Doc, Willow and I can talk you under the table about lyme.

 

[blueta2]

As I mentioned earlier, serology does NOT demonstrate active Lyme disease. It demonstrates exposure to it. Lyme serologies use an enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay to test for IgG antibodies to Lyme (a Lyme titre). If this is detected, then it is confirmed by a Western blot. Very few laboratories are able to test for IgM antibodies to Lyme (which would imply a more active or recent infection). Where I worked, we were able to do IgM antibodies. Where I work now we aren't able to do them. In cases of active disease, this titre is elevated in about 70% of individuals. The remainder have only a small baseline titre.

Just to add, Igenex does the most accurate testing of IGG and IGM. Most other tests such as the Elisa are useless as well as West Blots given in most state labs.
Most LLMD's and the CDC use Igenex, I believe Prez Bush's blood was sent there when he had lyme.


There is also Frye lab which is doing more acccurate testing for the co-infections.

For the patients you treated for lyem, did you treat them for co infections?

 

[guest username]

That's OK. You stick with your homeopathy and I'll continue treating and curing my patients.

That's just wrong that you treat yourself with metronidazole just to prevent C. diff. The problem is you shouldn't be treated with antibiotics anyhow.

So when your course of therapy fails, feel free to PM me and I'll arrange for you to see a specialist here in the US that is the leading expert on Lyme disease. Today's controversial treatments are tomorrow's standard of care. This man truly is on the cutting edge of Lyme disease.

This is my end of contributions to this thread.

 

[blueta2]

That's OK. You stick with your homeopathy and I'll continue treating and curing my patients.

That's just wrong that you treat yourself with metronidazole just to prevent C. diff. The problem is you shouldn't be treated with antibiotics anyhow.

So when your course of therapy fails, feel free to PM me and I'll arrange for you to see a specialist here in the US that is the leading expert on Lyme disease. Today's controversial treatments are tomorrow's standard of care. This man truly is on the cutting edge of Lyme disease.

This is my end of contributions to this thread.

You're obviously very ignorant about lyme, like the majority of the medical community.
Oh really? Have you cured a lyme patient?...haha!
Give me the details on how you cured them? You can't because you know squat about treating lyme.
Your medical degree does not make you an expert on lyme.
Like I said, giving steriods to a lyme patient can kill them. This is one of the most DANGEROUS things you can give.

I HIGHLY doubt the guy you know is on the cutting edge of lyme, but thanks for the offer. I doubt I'd be taking advice from a medical dr who rx's steriods to a lyme patient or who doesn't know that Flagy is one of the ONLY two abx given to treat c diff.
Fucking scary that you're actually treating patients.

When you realize what lyme is all about, it will be you PM'ing me for the CORRECT information.

And I'm glad this is the end of your contribution.

 

[blueta2]

Folks, this is a great example of a Dr you don't want to be treated by. One with an EGO too big for his own good.

The scary part, most dr's are like this guy. Thinks he's a know-it-all on an illness cause he's a dr. It's dr's like this dude that misdiagnosed me for years.
A medical degree only means they went to school longer than you, then they shove their heads up their asses and look at their paychecks.

Thank God for educated patients....dr's like this dude will be obsolete one day