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Liver Helper Myth Destroyed

Fonz

"Q"
Platinum
Ok, I'm seeing more and more people using Milk thistle.

Well, guess what?

IT DOES NOTHING.

Even plain water is better than Milk Thistle.

So, STOP throwing your money away.

It won't even stem the tide, the liver will still
be bombarded by the 17-aa steroid molecule.
It doesn't even affect liver protection or
regeneration.
I'm not kidding here. Milk thistle won't do a thing.
So, if you use it alone with 17-aa's, you're more
than likely to get high liver enzyme values or WORSE
if using hepatoxic 17-aa's like Anadrol/Halo/winstrol
etc.....

These THREE are the ONLY ONES worth taking. PERIOD.

1. ALA at 600mg/day. THIS IS THE BEST. BAR NONE.

2. Tylers liver detox: Because it includes 3-4 substances
that would cost a fortune to buy by themselves. Not to
mention complicate matters b/c of availibility.(You'd
have to buy from several places at once)

3. Cranberry extract: NOT FOR THE LIVER. but
for the KIDNEYS. ALA and Tylers have little impact
on the kidneys. Cranberry however does.
Dosage: 3000mgs/day

4.(Up and coming) Calcium D-Glucarate: USED AFTER THE
CYCLE.(Some people use it during their cycle but
wether its effective or not is highly debatable).
This a relatively complicated substance to use and
needs to be researched before taking it.
Hard to find too.(Hence the up and coming denotation)

There are other more exotic ones for the liver but are EXPENSIVE
and I think irrelevant because ALA does everything they do.(And
more)

So, to finish up. possible combo's:

1. If price is an issue: ALA+cranberry
2. If not: ALA+Tylers+cranberry.

The reasson I picked ALA over tylers is while they both
protect the liver, ALA has MANY MORE benefits than
Tylers. Including, amazing anti-oxidant power,
increased glucose up-take, incresased oxygen up-take
by the heart etc.. etc..
It also RE-GENERATES damaged liver hepatocytes which
Tylers does NOT do.

These are the only effective ones. The rest I'd flush down
the toilet.
Remember, its your liver. Don't take any chances with
mythical rumours imparted years ago that just hapenned to
brainwash people and made them think that a substance was
actually effective when it really wasn't

The only AAS that Milk thistle would even have an impact on
would be Anavar. And that would be pushing it IMHO.

Fonz
 
Why has caused you to form this opinion? Medical research has shown Milk Thistle to be effective.. just curious.

Gman
 
It does nothing? This is more than an overstatement, it is false.

It may do "nothing" directly for the specific mechanisms of liver damage from 17-aas. However, if you risk damage by one mechanism it makes sense to protect against that mechanism AS WELL AS other mechanisms of damage. I must admit I'm not familiar with the mechanism of liver cell damage by 17-aas, if anyone has some info please enlighten me.

Milk thistle does have many positive effects on the liver. Anyone worried about liver damage is well advised to look into using it.

Inhibition of human carcinoma cell growth and DNA synthesis by silibinin, an active constituent of milk thistle: comparison with silymarin.
Bhatia N, Zhao J, Wolf DM, Agarwal R
Cancer Lett 1999 Dec 147:77-84


Cancer Lett • Volume 147 • Issue 1-2
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records, full text

Abstract
Several studies from our laboratory have shown the cancer chemopreventive and anti-carcinogenic effects of silymarin, a flavonoid antioxidant isolated from milk thistle, in long-term tumorigenesis models and in human prostate, breast and cervical carcinoma cells. Since silymarin is composed mainly of silibinin with small amounts of other stereoisomers of silibinin, in the present communication, studies were performed to assess whether the cancer preventive and anti-carcinogenic effects of silymarin are due to its major component silibinin. Treatment of different prostate, breast, and cervical human carcinoma cells with silibinin resulted in a highly significant inhibition of both cell growth and DNA synthesis in a time-dependent manner with large loss of cell viability only in case of cervical carcinoma cells. When compared with silymarin, these effects of silibinin were consistent and comparable in terms of cell growth and DNA synthesis inhibition, and loss of cell viability. Based on the comparable results of silibinin and silymarin, we suggest that the cancer chemopreventive and anti-carcinogenic effects of silymarin reported earlier are due to the main constituent silibinin.



Milk thistle (Silybum marianum) for the therapy of liver disease.
Flora K, Hahn M, Rosen H, Benner K
Am J Gastroenterol 1998 Feb 93:139-43


Am J Gastroenterol • Volume 93 • Issue 2
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
Silymarin, derived from the milk thistle plant, Silybum marianum, has been used for centuries as a natural remedy for diseases of the liver and biliary tract. As interest in alternative therapy has emerged in the United States, gastroenterologists have encountered increasing numbers of patients taking silymarin with little understanding of its purported properties. Silymarin and its active constituent, silybin, have been reported to work as antioxidants scavenging free radicals and inhibiting lipid peroxidation. Studies also suggest that they protect against genomic injury, increase hepatocyte protein synthesis, decrease the activity of tumor promoters, stabilize mast cells, chelate iron, and slow calcium metabolism. In this article we review silymarin's history, pharmacology, and properties, and the clinical trials pertaining to patients with acute and chronic liver disease.
 
Ok. Milk thistle might do SOMETHING, true. But consider the hepatoxicity of 17 aa. You are basically bailing out a flooding boat with a thimble. It may work for normal carcinogenic models, but when you are importing a toxic system into your body, it doesn't hold water. Try something like he suggested. I agree with you bro.

NFG
 
NFG123 said:
Ok. Milk thistle might do SOMETHING, true. But consider the hepatoxicity of 17 aa. You are basically bailing out a flooding boat with a thimble. It may work for normal carcinogenic models, but when you are importing a toxic system into your body, it doesn't hold water. Try something like he suggested. I agree with you bro.

NFG

EXACTLY.

This is the point I was trying to convey.

The STUDIES wre done WITHOUT any hepatoxic substances
being run at the same time.

And,

While ALA, Tylers, Cranberry are: HERE!!!!




















Milk THistle is DOWN HERE!!!!!!

So, please tell me WHAT on earth is the point of taking
Milk Thistle if ALA ALREADY DOES what milk thistle
is SUPPOSED to do, but 1000X better??????


To give an example:

f you had access to Arimidex and novaldex AT THE SAME
PRICE.(ALA and Milk Thistle cost the same)

WHICH ONE WOULD YOU GET???????

Now do you guys see how stupid it is to buy Milk Thistle?

Its the old "Newer technology" vs "Older technology".

Fonz
 
Fonz would you post a study on Tyler's liver tox, as I've yet to see one. I don't dispute the effectiveness of ALA it is beyond doubt the best liver protector.
 
DaMan said:
N-Acetyl-Cysteine.

That perticular substance is already in Tylers.

Fonz
 
FONZ...

Great Post. How much ALA would you recommend to protect the liver against 25 mg per day of winny or halo?
 
First of all I can't understand why you suggest Cranberry. Cranberry does jack shit. If you want to talk about useless supplements, I would have to say the cranberry should go FIRST. Then the milk thistle. The only thing cranberry has proven to do in clincal studies is to prevent bacteria from sticking to the lining of the bladder - Thus preventing a urinary tract infection. As taken from GNC.COM:

Historical or traditional use (may or may not be supported by scientific studies): In traditional North American herbalism, cranberry has been used to prevent kidney stones and “bladder gravel” as well as to remove toxins from the blood. Cranberry has long been recommended by herbalists as well as doctors to help prevent urinary tract infections (UTIs).

Active constituents: In test tube studies, cranberry prevents E. coli, the most common bacterial cause of UTIs, from adhering to the cells lining the wall of the bladder. This anti-adherence action is thought to reduce the ability of the bacteria to cause a UTI.1 2 The proanthocyanidins in the berry have exhibited this anti-adherence action.3 Cranberry has been shown to reduce bacteria levels in the urinary bladders of older women significantly better than placebo, an action that may help to prevent UTIs.4 A small double-blind trial with younger women ages 18–45 years with a history of recurrent urinary tracts infections, found that daily treatment with an encapsulated cranberry concentrate (400 mg twice per day) for three months significantly reduced the recurrence of urinary tract infections compared to women taking a placebo.5 Other preliminary trials in humans suggest cranberry may help people with urostomies and enterocystoplasties to keep their urine clear of mucus buildup and possibly reduce the risk of UTIs.6 However, one trial found that cranberry did not reduce the risk of UTIs in children with neurogenic bladder disease (a condition that does not allow for proper flow of urine from the bladder) who were receiving daily catheterization.7

Cranberry does ABSOLUTELY nothing for kidney health other than preventing UTI's. Steroids don't give you UTI's.. so what is the point exactly? I've heard that old wives tale that cranberry juice is good for the kidneys, but have never really seen any medical literature to this date supporting that notion. If you ask me, water is probably just about as good if not better because it lacks the sugar which most cranberry juices have.

Just my .02 cents. :)

Gman
 
Gman said:
First of all I can't understand why you suggest Cranberry. Cranberry does jack shit. If you want to talk about useless supplements, I would have to say the cranberry should go FIRST. Then the milk thistle. The only thing cranberry has proven to do in clincal studies is to prevent bacteria from sticking to the lining of the bladder - Thus preventing a urinary tract infection. As taken from GNC.COM:

Historical or traditional use (may or may not be supported by scientific studies): In traditional North American herbalism, cranberry has been used to prevent kidney stones and “bladder gravel” as well as to remove toxins from the blood. Cranberry has long been recommended by herbalists as well as doctors to help prevent urinary tract infections (UTIs).

Active constituents: In test tube studies, cranberry prevents E. coli, the most common bacterial cause of UTIs, from adhering to the cells lining the wall of the bladder. This anti-adherence action is thought to reduce the ability of the bacteria to cause a UTI.1 2 The proanthocyanidins in the berry have exhibited this anti-adherence action.3 Cranberry has been shown to reduce bacteria levels in the urinary bladders of older women significantly better than placebo, an action that may help to prevent UTIs.4 A small double-blind trial with younger women ages 18–45 years with a history of recurrent urinary tracts infections, found that daily treatment with an encapsulated cranberry con

Interesting. Yet. GNC.COM???????

I woud rather talk to the local shaman then get information
from that site.

One word: MEDLINE.

Fonz
 
Re: FONZ...

Sexton said:
Great Post. How much ALA would you recommend to protect the liver against 25 mg per day of winny or halo?

The clinical therapeutic dose is 600mg/day.

Fonz
 
I think milk thistle is a good supplement to take but I do agree that it dies not do near as well as ALA during a cycle. What most do not realize is that Milk Thistle strengthens the Liver by improving function and stimulating cell growth. When taken off-cycle it can be very effective in preparing your liver for any stress it might encounter from whatever source. Where people make their mistake is when they assume they will reap its benefits during a cycle and start the supplement when they start a cycle. It does not work that way. ALA does the trick for that approach. Both supplements are equal in effectiveness when used properly.
 
Thanks Fonz . YOu jsut inspired me to buy 1000 pills of ALA from kilo. What dosage of ALA would you recommeng with 25mgs of dbol?
And by the way your right about the price why buy milk thistle when you can get ala for about the same
 
My liver values were high using milk thistle while on Test Ent. and A50 cycle.

I switched to ALA for a Test Ent, Tren, A50, and Dbol cycle. My values are now good. I'll stick with ALA.

Also, cran helped me with the kidney strain from the Tren and Dbol. I know cran works for me.
 
FYI biotest MD6, both the new and old version, has 100mg of ALA per cap. If you are already taking a thermo throughout the day, you might as well use this stuff. This is how I get my 600mg of ALA a day. Anyway it is a good fat burner.
 
TheGame_620 said:
Thanks Fonz . YOu jsut inspired me to buy 1000 pills of ALA from kilo. What dosage of ALA would you recommeng with 25mgs of dbol?
And by the way your right about the price why buy milk thistle when you can get ala for about the same

For liver protection, the therapeutic dose is 600mg/day.

Fonz
 
Fonz, and your sources of information about Milk Thistle and Cranberry Extract, are....???????????
If it's Medline, please post URL to article, because, I couldn't find any supporting your theories.
 
at the risk of sounding stupid where is the best place to buy ALA and CRANBERRY? ive been caught in the milk thistle hype.
 
ALA does wonders. 4 weeks ago I had some blood tests done and my sgot level was 202!! I took ALA at 900 mgs a day for 3 weeks. I went back today and had my liver enzymes checked again and they were down to 93. I was very happy with the results. ALA is worth it.
 
Fonz,

How about the effect Milk Thistle has on D-bol pains (ie lower back pain, etc). I've heard a lot of bros on this board swear by it.

Thoughts?
 
mvmaxx said:
Fonz,

How about the effect Milk Thistle has on D-bol pains (ie lower back pain, etc). I've heard a lot of bros on this board swear by it.

Thoughts?

I'd got plenty of those, while on dbol. The answer is very simple, muscles pumps. If that pain had to do anything with kidney, just sitting down with back support for a few minutes would't make it go away.
Also, kidney are not as low on a back as most people think, and if you get pain there, you won't mistaken it with anything, you will run to hospital.
 
Last edited:
BTW, I second opinion on complete uselessness of Cranberry Extract for kidneys. Like Fonz said about milk thistle, even plain bottled water is better...
And, while I agree that ALA and Tyler's Detox are superior to Milk Thistle, still, it is beneficial to use it.
 
the efficacy of silymarin with regards to a variety of liver diseases liver protection, and immuno response is well documented. Do some treatments work better than others? Duh! Suggestions to ignore this effective and inexpensive treatment are, imo, irresponsible. Should you take other well documented liver protectants? Yes, of course we should all avail ourselves of whatever is out there, perhaps even some undocumented "shaman recommended" herbs as well. :)
I agree, medline is our friend, do a search and decide for yourself, I did!
 
I don't care about opinions....i've always taken ALA, Milk Thistle, and Cranberry Exatract...and I always will. Why risk your health due to possible ignorance?...a bottle of that shit is what, like $15?

If I see some actual proof that it "does nothing", then maybe i'll reconsider.
 
Last edited:
Hey fonz good post. I regulary use ala and i can say it is a really good supplement. Now since we're taliking about hepatoxicity you mentioned that the only 17aa that milkthistle would work with is anavar. Can you explain me once for all why anavar, still beeing 17 aa, is not supposed to be liver toxic? And would you still use ala @600mgs/ day in an anavar only cycle?Thanks in advance for the info
 
Fonz, thank you for raising this issue. I think it is mostly luck that I finally figured this out before this cycle, and have been taking ALA and cranberry throughout.

As for you guys looking for the best place to buy - good idea to look around for the best bulk prices, but don't risk your health by dithering around about it. You can go to many drug stores RIGHT NOW and walk down the supplements aisle, and find 100 mg ALA capsules and concentrated cranberry supps. A bit pricey, but $20 won't kill you. Liver and kidney problems will.

And drink water.
 
Are you just quessing? Do you have anything to support your statements?

I have yet to see any evidence that milk thistle is totally useless for one who uses steroids. Fonz, sorry, but you have given us nothing but conjecture. Though it may have no direct inhibitory effect on potentialy liver damaging steroid related agents, their is a great deal of evidence suggesting that multiple indirect liver protecting mechanisms, with great potential to protect against steroid related liver damage. Until definitive evidence proves otherwise, milk thistle is in.

<Posted by NFG123> Ok. Milk thistle might do SOMETHING, true. But consider the hepatoxicity of 17 aa. You are basically bailing out a flooding boat with a thimble. It may work for normal carcinogenic models, but when you are importing a toxic system into your body, it doesn't hold water.
The "leaky boat, using a thimble instead of a bucket to bail water" analogy is a little premature in my opinion. Milk thistle IS effective with many imported toxins. Milk thistle helps to maintain liver health in several ways. It is effective in protecting the liver against many forms of liver damage including many toxins, as seen in the journal abstracts below.

Be sure to read the last two to discover an added benifit of milk thistle - cholesterol regulatory effects.

Silibinin, a plant extract with antioxidant and membrane stabilizing properties, protects exocrine pancreas from cyclosporin A toxicity.
von Schönfeld J, Weisbrod B, Müller MK
Cell Mol Life Sci 1997 Dec 53:917-20

Cell Mol Life Sci • Volume 53 • Issue 11-12
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
Silymarin can be extracted from the milk thistle, and silibinin is the main component of the plant extract. Possibly due to their antioxidant and membrane-stabilizing properties, the compounds have been shown to protect different organs and cells against a number of insults. Thus liver, kidney, erythrocytes and platelets have been protected from the toxic effects of ethanol, carbon tetrachloride, cold ischemia and drugs, respectively. The effect of silibinin on endocrine and exocrine pancreas, however, has not been studied. We therefore investigated whether silibinin treatment attenuates cyclosporin A (CiA) toxicity on rat endocrine and exocrine pancreas. Groups of 15 male Wistar rats were treated for 8 days with CiA and/or silibinin. On day 9, endocrine and exocrine pancreatic functions were tested in vitro. At the end of the treatment period, blood glucose levels in vivo were significantly higher in rats treated with CiA while silibinin did not affect glucose levels. In vitro, insulin secretion was inhibited after treatment with silibinin, but amylase secretion was not affected. After treatment with CiA both insulin and amylase secretion were reduced. Silibinin and CiA had an additive inhibitory effect on insulin secretion, but silibinin attenuated CiA-induced inhibition of amylase secretion. Despite CiA treatment, amylase secretion was in fact restored to normal with the highest dose of silibinin. Thus silibinin inhibits glucose-stimulated insulin release in vitro, while not affecting blood glucose concentration in vivo. This combination of effects could be useful in the treatment of non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. Furthermore, silibinin protects the exocrine pancreas from CiA toxicity. As this inhibitory effect is probably unspecific, silibinin may also protect the exocrine pancreas against other insult principles, such as alcohol.



Silybin inhibition of human T-lymphocyte activation.
Meroni PL, Barcellini W, Borghi MO, Vismara A, Ferraro G, Ciani D, Zanussi C
Int J Tissue React 1988 10:177-81

Int J Tissue React • Volume 10 • Issue 3
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
Silybin, a 3-oxyflavone occurring in the thistle Silybum marianum, displays a dose-dependent inhibition of in-vitro lymphocyte blastogenesis induced by lectins (phytohaemagglutinin, Concanavalin A and pokeweed) and by anti-CD3 monoclonal antibody. The drug has no effect on cell viability and spontaneous 3H-thymidine incorporation, suggesting that the inhibitory activity is not due to aspecific toxicity. Since all the T-cell responses investigated require cell-membrane-associated events, the effect of silybin is probably at the level of the cell membrane, as for other flavonoids. Addition of CuSO4 prevents the inhibitory activity of silybin on PHA-induced proliferative response, indicating that the drug could exert its activity also by virtue of a chelation mechanism.




Inhibition of Kupffer cell functions as an explanation for the hepatoprotective properties of silibinin.
Dehmlow C, Erhard J, de Groot H
Hepatology 1996 Apr 23:749-54

Hepatology • Volume 23 • Issue 4
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
The flavonoid silibinin, the main compound extracted from the milk thistle Silybum marianum, displays hepatoprotective properties in acute and chronic liver injury. To further elucidate the mechanisms by which it acts, we studied the effects of silibinin on different functions of isolated rat Kupffer cells, namely the formation of superoxide anion radical (02-), nitric oxide (NO), tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha), prostaglandin E(2) (PGE(2)), and leukotriene B(4) (LTB(4)). Production of 02- and NO were inhibited in a dose-dependent manner, with an 50 percent inhibitory concentration (IC(50)) value around 80 micro mol/L. No effect on TNF-alpha formation was detected. Opposite effects were found on the cyclooxygenase and 5-lipoxygenase pathway of arachidonic acid metabolism. Whereas no influence on PGE(2) formation was observed with silibinin concentrations up to 100 micro mol/L, a strong inhibitory effect on LTB(4) formation became evident. The IC(50)-value for inhibiting the formation of this eicosanoid was determined to be 15 micro mol/L silibinin. The strong inhibition of LTB(4), formation by silibinin was confirmed in experiments with phagocytic cells isolated from human liver. Hence, while rather high concentrations of silibinin are necessary to diminish free radical formation by activated Kupffer cells, significant inhibition of the 5-lipoxygenase pathway already occurs at silibinin concentrations which are achieved in vivo. Selective inhibition of leukotriene formation by Kupffer cells can at least partly account for the hepatoprotective properties of silibinin.



[Effects of bioflavonoids on the toxicity of T-toxin in rats. A morphological study]
Pozdniakov AL, Kravchenko LV, Avren'eva LI, Kazenkina NB
Vopr Pitan 2000 69:24-7

Vopr Pitan • Volume 69 • Issue 5
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
Subacute toxicity of T-2 toxin in rats was characterized by a primary defeat of liver, thymus, spleen and intraorgan arteries. In 75% of animals found out increase of the size and adipose infiltration of a liver, in all animals--reduction of the size of thymus (sharp) and spleen (moderate) and pronounced hypoplasia of lymphoid tissue. In the majority of rats vacuolation of cytoplasma of smooth-muscular walls of coronary and intrarenal arteries was revealed. In animals received T-2 toxin against a background of a diet with addition a flour from seeds of milk thistle with high contents of flavonoids, described morphological changes were expressed to a lesser degree and were observed less often. Moderate periportal adipose infiltration of a liver was revealed in 30% of animals, occupancy by cells of lymphoid tissue increased, the quantity and sizes of vacuoles in walls of vessels decreased.


[Effects of bioflavonoids on the toxicity of T-toxin in rats. A biochemical study]
Kravchenko LV, Avren'eva LI, Tutel'ian VA
Vopr Pitan 2000 69:20-3

Vopr Pitan • Volume 69 • Issue 5
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
The enrichment of a diet of rats by flavonoids of milk thistle, Silybum marianum, reduced toxicity of T-2 toxin and was accompanied by reduction of a degree of change of total and nonsedimentable activity of lysosomal enzymes and microsomal xenobiotic metabolizing enzymes.



Putative effect of silymarin on sawfly (Arge pullata)-induced hepatotoxicosis in sheep.
Thamsborg SM, Jørgensen , Brummerstedt E, Bjerregard J
Vet Hum Toxicol 1996 Apr 38:89-91

Vet Hum Toxicol • Volume 38 • Issue 2
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
The prevention of hepatotoxicity from sawfly larvae (Arge pullata) was studied in 8 lambs by using silymarin, a botanical compound isolated from Silybum marianum. Of 2 lambs dosed orally with larvae only, 1 had a marked toxic response whereas the other responded poorly as judged from clinical parameters, blood biochemistry and pathology. Two lambs treated with penicillin, glucose and silymarin 7 and 24 h after larvae dosing were not affected by toxicosis, whereas 2 lambs treated similarly but without silymarin responded intermediate to the other 2 groups. Our study suggests a favorable effect using silymarin in treatment of sawfly larvae-induced ruminant hepatotoxicosis.




Picroliv affords protection against thioacetamide-induced hepatic damage in rats.
Dwivedi Y, Rastogi R, Sharma SK, Garg NK, Dhawan BN
Planta Med 1991 Feb 57:25-8

Planta Med • Volume 57 • Issue 1
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
Thioacetamide (100 mg/kg), when administered to normal rats, caused a significant increase in the activities of 5'-nucleotidase and gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase and a decrease in the activities of glucose 6-phosphatase and succinate dehydrogenase enzymes in the liver. DNA, RNA, and proteins were increased while the cytochrome P450 in the microsomal fraction and the glycogen content in the liver were decreased significantly. Elevations in the activities of GOT, GPT, and alkaline phosphatase and bilirubin content in serum were also observed. Picroliv, a standardised glycoside fraction of Picrorhiza kurroa, in doses of 12.5 and 25 mg/kg prevented most of the biochemical changes induced by thioacetamide in liver and serum. The hepatoprotective activity of Picroliv was comparable with that of silymarin, a known hepatoprotective agent obtained from seeds of Silybum marianum.



Hepatoprotective activity of silymarin against hepatic damage in Mastomys natalensis infected with Plasmodium berghei.
Chander R, Kapoor NK, Dhawan BN
Indian J Med Res 1989 Dec 90:472-7

Indian J Med Res • Volume 90
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
Silymarin, a flavolignan from the seeds of Silybum marianum, showed significant hepatoprotective activity in P. berghei-induced hepatic damage in M. natalensis, as assessed by changes in several serum and liver biochemical parameters. Changes in lipoprotein-X, GOT, GPT, alkaline phosphatase and bilirubin were found to be protected by silymarin at different doses. Maximum activity was observed at a dose of 5 mg/kg bw, po. Silymarin had no effect on parasitaemia.




Drug-membrane interactions: silymarin, silibyn and microsomal membranes.
Parasassi T, Martellucci A, Conti F, Messina B
Cell Biochem Funct 1984 Apr 2:85-8

Cell Biochem Funct • Volume 2 • Issue 2
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
Silymarin and silibyn are extracted from the seeds of Silybum marianum and used as a liver protectant because of their free radical scavenging. When incorporated into rabbit liver microsomes they cause a small decrease in the flourescence anisotropy of 1,6-diphenyl-1,3,5-hexatriene (DPH) but not of 1-anilinononaphthalene-8-sulphonic acid (ANS), incorporated into the membranes. They do, however, reduce the fluorescence intensity of incorporated ANS without changing the wavelength of maximum intensity. These observations suggest that the drugs are incorporated into the hydrophobic-hydrophilic interface of the microsomal bilayer and perturb the structure by influencing the packing of the acyl chains.


The influence of silybin from Silybum marianum (L.) Gaertn. on in vitro phosphatidyl choline biosynthesis in rat livers.
Schriewer H, Weinhold F
Arzneimittelforschung 1979 29:791-2

Arzneimittelforschung • Volume 29 • Issue 5
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
In rat livers, removed 60 min after i.p. application of 150.6 mg/kg silybin-dihemisuccinate-di-Na-salt, in vitro incorporation of choline-(methyl-14C) into phosphatidyl choline by the postmitochondrial fraction of liver homogenates was enhanced in comparison with controls. These results are associated with increased activities of CTP-choline-phosphate cytidyltransferase. Enzyme activities were also enhanced after addition of 7.5 x 10(-6) mol/l silybin to incubation mixtures obtained from untreated rats.


Advances in pharmacological studies of silymarin.
Rui YC
Mem Inst Oswaldo Cruz 1991 86 Suppl 2:79-85

Mem Inst Oswaldo Cruz • Volume 86 Suppl 2
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
Silymarin is the flavonoids extracted from the seeds of Silybum marianum (L) Gearth as a mixture of three structural isomers: silybin, silydianin and silychristin, the former being the most active component. Silymarin protects liver cell membrane against hepatotoxic agents and improves liver function in experimental animals and humans. It is generally accepted that silymarin exerts a membrane-stabilizing action preventing or inhibiting membrane peroxidation. The experiments with soybean lipoxygenase showed that the three components of silymarin brought about a concentration-dependent non-competitive inhibition of the lipoxygenase. The experiments also showed an analogous interaction with animal lipoxygenase, thus showing that an inhibition of the peroxidation of the fatty acid in vivo was self-evident. Silybin almost completely suppressed the formation of PG at the highest concentration (0.3 mM) and proved to be an inhibitor of PG synthesis in vitro. In our experiments, silybin at lower dose (65 mg/kg) decreased liver lipoperoxide content and microsomal lipoperoxidation to 84.6% and 68.55% of those of the scalded control rats respectively, and prevented the decrease of liver microsomal cytochrome p-450 content and p-nitroanisole-O-demethylase activity 24 h post-scalding. Effects of silymarin on cardiovascular system have been studied in this university since 1980. P. O silymarin 800 mg/kg/d or silybin 600 mg/kg/d reduced plasma total cholesterol, LDL-C and VLDL-C. They however, enhanced HDL-C in hyperlipemic rats.<Whats this? Any fellow steroid users watch their cholesterol?> Further studies showed that silymarin enhanced HDL-C but didn't affect HDL-C, a property of this component which is beneficial to treatment of atherosclerosis.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)


Silymarin as a potential hypocholesterolaemic drug.
Skottová N, Krecman V
Physiol Res 1998 47:1-7

Physiol Res • Volume 47 • Issue 1
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
Silymarin, a mixture of flavonolignans from medicinal plant Silybum marianum, is used in supportive treatment of liver diseases of different etiology due to its hepatoprotective activity, which is considered to involve antioxidative and the membrane stabilizing effects. The liver plays an important role in regulation of metabolism of plasma lipoproteins, and liver injury is often reflected as a secondary dyslipoproteinaemia, which may lead to the development of atherosclerosis, particularly when associated with hypercholesterolaemia. This review summarizes the experimental evidence indicating that silymarin-induced protection of liver functions may be of benefit with regard to liver lipid metabolism related to the regulation of plasma lipoproteins. Moreover, some data suggest that silymarin could have a direct effect on liver cholesterol metabolism by inhibiting cholesterol biosynthesis. It is proposed that silymarin deserves to be studied as a potential hypocholesterolaemic agent.
 
Like Gman has already mentioned, cranberry does not have any known renal protective properties. Gman might have used GNC as his source, but that is also what the literature (medline, pubmed,...) will show. Cranberry only hepls UTIs.
 
panerai said:


I'd got plenty of those, while on dbol. The answer is very simple, muscles pumps. If that pain had to do anything with kidney, just sitting down with back support for a few minutes would't make it go away.
Also, kidney are not as low on a back as most people think, and if you get pain there, you won't mistaken it with anything, you will run to hospital.

Panerai, I wasn't suggesting that Milk Thistle would immediately alleviate kidney pains, rather i was asking his opinion on if it assisted with the pains (ie muscle pumps) that some get very badly.
 
<Posted by dsaghafi> Like Gman has already mentioned, cranberry does not have any known renal protective properties. Gman might have used GNC as his source, but that is also what the literature (medline, pubmed,...) will show. Cranberry only hepls UTIs.
Dsaghafi (and everyone else) check this out. Doesn't look too good for cranberry juice - especially if you are taking something hard on your kidneys!

BTW, I couldn't find a single reference to cranberry having any positive effects for the kidneys.

Dietary supplementation with cranberry concentrate tablets may increase the risk of nephrolithiasis.
Terris MK, Issa MM, Tacker JR
Urology 2001 Jan 57:26-9

Urology • Volume 57 • Issue 1
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records

Abstract
OBJECTIVES: Cranberry juice has been recommended for patients with recurrent urinary tract infections. However, cranberry juice has a moderately high concentration of oxalate, a common component of kidney stones, and should be limited in patients with a history of nephrolithiasis. Cranberry concentrate tablets are currently available at nutrition stores and are sold as promoters of urinary tract health. After one of our patients with a distant history of calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis developed recurrent stones following self-administration of cranberry concentrate tablets, we sought to investigate the potential lithogenic properties of cranberry supplements. METHODS: Five healthy volunteers on a normal diet provided 24-hour urine collection for pH, volume, creatinine, oxalate, calcium, phosphate, uric acid, sodium, citrate, magnesium, and potassium. Cranberry tablets were administered to these volunteers at the manufacturer's recommended dosage for 7 days. On the seventh day, a second 24-hour urine collection was obtained. RESULTS: The urinary oxalate levels in the volunteers significantly increased (P = 0.01) by an average of 43.4% while receiving cranberry tablets. The excretion of potential lithogenic ions calcium, phosphate, and sodium also increased. However, inhibitors of stone formation, magnesium and potassium, rose as well. CONCLUSIONS: Cranberry concentrate tablets are marketed for urinary tract ailments. Physicians and manufacturers of cranberry products should make an effort to educate patients at risk for nephrolithiasis against ingestion of these dietary supplements.
 
Silent Method said:

Dsaghafi (and everyone else) check this out. Doesn't look too good for cranberry juice - especially if you are taking something hard on your kidneys!

BTW, I couldn't find a single reference to cranberry having any positive effects for the kidneys.


Yep. I read that one too.
But, lets be fair. Who's going to be up and about with half-a
-dozen couple of kidney stones in their kidney.

And, some of you are still not seeing the point of my post(Which
I thought I made clear enough)

ALA is to be taken. PERIOD.

Milk Thistle is NOTHING compared to ALA.

ALA does the same things Milk Thistle does(and more).

If ALA is taken, Milk Thistle will not strengthen your liver
any more.

So, if ALA already does what MT does, and MT will not
strngthen your liver any more than ALA does,
then what on earth is the bloody point of taking
Milk Thistle?

Good, bad, or indifferent, this is a perfect example of
how one throws his/her money away without
rea;izing it.

Fonz
 
mvmaxx said:
Fonz,

How about the effect Milk Thistle has on D-bol pains (ie lower back pain, etc). I've heard a lot of bros on this board swear by it.

Thoughts?
Fonz altho i reccommend ALA always.....milk thistle does stop back pain caused by Dbol-Peroid!!!! RADAR
 
Silent Method, the only problem with those research publications is that they don't say HOW helpful the MT is. Remember, the term "significant" is a scientific term of statistical probability, not a judgement on how effective something is. all that means is that it had *any* effect whatsoever which is not likely due to chance. Even a crappy result would still be called "significant."

I want MT to work, too, because silymarin can be bought cheap at dpsnutrtion.

I found this:

From the Harvard Health Letter:

Q: My neighbor takes something called milk thistle. He likes to drink alcohol and believes the herb will protect him against any kind of liver damage. Is he right?

A: Milk thistle is an herbal medication that has been used since antiquity for a variety of ailments, including snakebites and varicose veins, but most commonly for liver disease. It’s one of the few herbal medications that has been studied extensively. Six studies have evaluated milk thistle to see whether it helps patients with damage to their livers from alcohol. Most, but not all, have shown that some aspects of liver function improve, but it isn’t a consistent pattern. Results have been mixed in viral hepatitis and other liver conditions.

Results like these usually mean that a medication has only mild benefits, if any. Moreover, these studies don’t address the issue of whether milk thistle actually protects the liver, only if it might help people after the damage has been done. Your neighbor shouldn’t be so sure that milk thistle is going to save him from liver problems. Besides, having more than 1–2 alcoholic drinks per day carries health risks for anybody. Think about all those extra calories. Milk thistle probably won’t hurt him, but if it gives a false sense of security about a heavy drinking habit, it might.


Beckmann-Knopp S, Rietbrock S, Weyhenmeyer R, Bocker RH, Beckurts KT, Lang W, Hunz M, Fuhr U. Inhibitory effects of silibinin on cytochrome P-450 enzymes in human liver microsomes. Pharmacol Toxicol. 2000 Jun;86(6):250-6.

I just read the abstract. It found moderate and distinct results in two measurements, but at very high doses.

De Martiis M, Fontana M, Assogna G, D'Ottavi R, D'Ottavi O. Milk thistle (Silybum marianum) derivatives in the therapy of chronic hepatopathies. Clin Ter. 1980 Aug 15;94(3):283-315.

De Martiis M, Fontana M, Sebastiani F, Parenzi A. Silymarin, a membranotropic drug: clinical and experimental observations. Clin Ter. 1977 May 31;81(4):333-62.

These two aren't available. They're Italian and too old to be archived.

Deak G, Muzes G, Lang I, Niederland V, Nekam K, Gonzalez-Cabello R, Gergely P, Feher J. Immunomodulator effect of silymarin therapy in chronic alcoholic liver diseases. Orv Hetil. 1990 Jun 17;131(24):1291-2, 1295-

This study found the effect to be "significant," but the abstract did not specify what significance. Significance can be excellent or poor, just as long as *something* happens. I wish I had better info on this study.


A study that is very current at Saller R , Meier R , Brignoli R. "The use of silymarin in the treatment of liver diseases." Drugs, 61(14): 2035-63, 2001 found that "The available trials in patients with toxic (e.g. solvents) or iatrogenic (e.g. antispychotic or tacrine) liver diseases, which are mostly outdated and underpowered, do not enable any valid conclusions to be drawn on the value of silymarin."

"The exception is an improved clinical tolerance of tacrine. In spite of some positive results in patients with acute viral hepatitis, no formally valid conclusion can be drawn regarding the value of silymarin in the treatment of these infections...Therefore, silymarin may be of use as an adjuvant in the therapy of alcoholic liver disease."

In one trial of 602 patients, "The evidence shows that, compared with placebo, silymarin produces a nonsignificant reduction of total mortality..."

This study began with a review of 525 previous references, and concluded that the overal effect of silmarin was...well, not much.

The good news is that of all herbal remedies examined, only milk thistle was NOT hepatotoxic.
 
Fonz, your saying ALA works in exactly the same way as milk thistle - only better. You suggest NO overlap in the way in which they work. I don't buy it and I don't think their is any basis for the idea. No offense, but are you just pulling this stuff out of your ass? You have given no supporting evidence to your claims.

ALA IS a much more potent antioxident than milk thistle. However, take a look at those studies I posted. Milk thistle works by many mechanisms, some of which I'm sure we don't know. Same with ALA. But they do not do the same thing. Upon what do you base the claims that "Milk Thistle is NOTHING compared to ALA, ALA does the same things Milk Thistle does, if ALA is taken, Milk Thistle will not strengthen your liver
any more?"


Here is an abstract on the pharmacology of ALA.
The pharmacology of the antioxidant lipoic acid.
Biewenga GP, Haenen GR, Bast A
Gen Pharmacol 1997 Sep 29:315-31

Gen Pharmacol • Volume 29 • Issue 3
MEDLINE, full MEDLINE, related records, full text

Abstract
1. Lipoic acid is an example of an existing drug whose therapeutic effect has been related to its antioxidant activity. 2. Antioxidant activity is a relative concept: it depends on the kind of oxidative stress and the kind of oxidizable substrate (e.g., DNA, lipid, protein). 3. In vitro, the final antioxidant activity of lipoic acid is determined by its concentration and by its antioxidant properties. Four antioxidant properties of lipoic acid have been studied: its metal chelating capacity, its ability to scavenge reactive oxygen species (ROS), its ability to regenerate endogenous antioxidants and its ability to repair oxidative damage. 4. Dihydrolipoic acid (DHLA), formed by reduction of lipoic acid, has more antioxidant properties than does lipoic acid. Both DHLA and lipoic acid have metal-chelating capacity and scavenge ROS, whereas only DHLA is able to regenerate endogenous antioxidants and to repair oxidative damage. 5. As a metal chelator, lipoic acid was shown to provide antioxidant activity by chelating Fe2+ and Cu2+; DHLA can do so by chelating Cd2+. 6. As scavengers of ROS, lipoic acid and DHLA display antioxidant activity in most experiments, whereas, in particular cases, pro-oxidant activity has been observed. However, lipoic acid can act as an antioxidant against the pro-oxidant activity produced by DHLA. 7. DHLA has the capacity to regenerate the endogenous antioxidants vitamin E, vitamin C and glutathione. 8. DHLA can provide peptide methionine sulfoxide reductase with reducing equivalents. This enhances the repair of oxidatively damaged proteins such as alpha-1 antiprotease. 9. Through the lipoamide dehydrogenase-dependent reduction of lipoic acid, the cell can draw on its NADH pool for antioxidant activity additionally to its NADPH pool, which is usually consumed during oxidative stress. 10. Within drug-related antioxidant pharmacology, lipoic acid is a model compound that enhances understanding of the mode of action of antioxidants in drug therapy.

Look, if it's freezing cold outside and I have to stay outdoors all night, the first thing I want is a warm, thick, protective coat. But if I can, I'm sure as hell going to grab a hat! Milk thistle does seem to have benifit that ALA alone doesen't.

BTW, the point of the cranberry study was that if you got some stress on the kidneys, cranberry might be a very bad idea.
 
Silent Method, the only problem with those research publications is that they don't say HOW helpful the MT is. Remember, the term "significant" is a scientific term of statistical probability, not a judgement on how effective something is.
Welcome to science. No data is anything but a statistical probability, some stronger than others. When we see words such as significant, considerable, substantial, etc, we can guage the strength of that probability. BTW, these are abstracts I'm posting. If I wanted quantified data for most of these I'd have to spring a few bucks for the whole report.
 
Silent Method said:
Fonz, your saying ALA works in exactly the same way as milk thistle - only better. You suggest NO overlap in the way in which they work. I don't buy it and I don't think their is any basis for the idea. No offense, but are you just pulling this stuff out of your ass? You have given no supporting evidence to your claims.

ALA IS a much more potent antioxident than milk thistle. However, take a look at those studies I posted. Milk thistle works by many mechanisms, some of which I'm sure we don't know. Same with ALA. But they do not do the same thing. Upon what do you base the claims that "Milk Thistle is NOTHING compared to ALA, ALA does the same things Milk Thistle does, if ALA is taken, Milk Thistle will not strengthen your liver
any more?"


Here is an abstract on the pharmacology of ALA.


Look, if it's freezing cold outside and I have to stay outdoors all night, the first thing I want is a warm, thick, protective coat. But if I can, I'm sure as hell going to grab a hat! Milk thistle does seem to have benifit that ALA alone doesen't.

BTW, the point of the cranberry study was that if you got some stress on the kidneys, cranberry might be a very bad idea.

I don't think you have to quote some ALA research to me. I've seen
pretty much all of it. 4+ years of taking it sort of does that.... :)

I see were you're coming from BUT while Milk Thistle might
work through other pathways, these pathways are so minor
that ultimately they will factour out as irrelevant.
There are basically 2 phases to liver processing. You cover
them both and you're set. ALA does this TOTALLY. So, again
whats the benefit of MT if ALA already covers all the
important pathways?

Fonz
 
how about we stop this perpetual debate and just settle on taking BOTH ALA and MT if it suits some.....others can toss it if money is THAT much of an issue.

it's like you either believe in creationism or evolution. why can't we just believe in both? :D
 
OK I will bite and do some ALA with my next winny and also invest in stock of companies selling this supplement now that the Fonz has spoken :P

Anyway do you recommend any particular brands of this stuff?


Thanks!
 
a couple questions for fonz

Your post has been highly effective in generating an interesting discussion if not terribly long in scientific presentation. First, where does the 600mg therapeutic dose recommendation come from? Secondly, Are you assuming that the stress on the liver comes entirely from oxidative stress?

I read the studies and find that silymarin has some real benefits and also see that ala has been effective in some but not all cases as well(oxidative stress). Perhaps one of the medical gurus here could educate us on the nature of endogenous AAS induced stress on the liver and we could judge for ourselves. BTW, I do not agree that ala is the magic bullet(show me the study!) and should be taken to the exclusion of all the other liver "restoratives." It might be interesting to see a combined study on the effect of a "cocktail" vs one over the other. This is not an uncommon result in medicine.


Fonz said:


I don't think you have to quote some ALA research to me. I've seen
pretty much all of it. 4+ years of taking it sort of does that.... :)

I see were you're coming from BUT while Milk Thistle might
work through other pathways, these pathways are so minor
that ultimately they will factour out as irrelevant.
There are basically 2 phases to liver processing. You cover
them both and you're set. ALA does this TOTALLY. So, again
whats the benefit of MT if ALA already covers all the
important pathways?

Fonz
 
Last edited:
Cranberry sucks worse than Milk Thistle!
Kidneys may be damaged through high BP and for
this it does nothing!
 
I don't think you have to quote some ALA research to me. I've seen pretty much all of it. 4+ years of taking it sort of does that....

I see were you're coming from BUT while Milk Thistle might
work through other pathways, these pathways are so minor
that ultimately they will factour out as irrelevant.
There are basically 2 phases to liver processing. You cover
them both and you're set. ALA does this TOTALLY. So, again
whats the benefit of MT if ALA already covers all the
important pathways?
4 years of swallowing a supplement does not an expert make. BTW, I posted it for everyone following this. Lets both agree that we believe ALA is the paramount liver protectant for our use.

Now, for the love of god, do you have any support for your claim above? What evidence do you have that any theraputic benifit from milk thistle will be irrelevent in the light of ALA? Also, you state that their are basically two phases to liver processing and ALA covers them "totally." Well, their are thousands of different ways to damage cells. ALA don't cover all of these. When (if) science finds a way to cover these totally, we will no longer have to worry about liver damage. My argument is that evidence seems to point to an overlap between the protective action of ALA and milk thistle. I have seen NO evidence that would suggest otherwise.

Look, if clear cut evidence was given to me that supported your claims I'd be satisfied knowing milk thistle was pure bunk. I have nothing to gain by supporting its use and something to gain by not buying the stuff. Fonz, I mean no disrespect what so ever. But as I said before, I feel you have given us nothing more than conjecture with your statements in this post.
 
What about Liv 52, is this any use or should i stop wasting my money on this product aswell as the milk thistle??

Mick
 
Oh finally!!!
It's over a year I say only Glutathione works on liver.
Now a little step haed is done.
I hope that you soon will open your eyes and see that ALA and the other are just water for the 177aa attack on your liver.
Trust me guys.
 
Hold on a sec...ALA is Lipoic Acid?...Always though it was A
Lot of
Alcohol

explains why everytime i'm on a heavy oral cycle i always get gingivitus, oops, i mean jaundice!

Dodged that one didn't I?

Thugster
 
I use and like liv52

I have a liver that seems to be very sensitive to stress and liv 52 seems to help(anecdotal), on their website they make several references to studies done that support the use of liv52.
 
It's over a year I say only Glutathione works on liver.

I have read alot of research where glutathione is very beneficial to alcoholics and also helps to prevent liver damage from other toxins as well. I would not venture so far as to say that it is the only liver protector though.
 
power_just said:
hey bro of the subject for a mo...but i am living in newcastle where abouts are u.

Im just outside Newcastle in Cramlington. Its just easier to say Newcastle otherwise everyone just starts asking where Crammy is.

Mick
 
Fonz, while Milk Thistle may be ineffective against 17aa, I am sure for overall health it would be wise to take it to strenghten the liver and prepare it for the warfare it will encounter during a heavy 17aa cycle. In addition, adding ALA will further solidify your defenses while using.

I can honestly say that Milk Thistle did nothing to stop high liver enzymes after a 5 week stint with winny tabs at 50mg a day. I may not have taken enough, but I was not using ALA (which I most certainly will in the future.) With the price of Milk Thistle being pretty cheap and ALA being a bit higher. I suppose always using MT and adding ALA during high stress periods would be the way to go.
 
A little off topic.. but would drinking Cranberry juice over taking cranberry extract pills be more beneficial or is it the other way around?
 
A little off topic.. but would drinking Cranberry juice over taking cranberry extract pills be more beneficial or is it the other way around?
If I had to pick one it'd be the juice. I'm not so sure I'd use either.
 
Well it's about time someone dismounted that myth about milk thistle, snake oil I cried. All I have been using for the past months have been ALA 600mg daily and 4 tyler detox a day, there isn't a reason to play with your liver.

Get your tyler liver detox at the AF store.

www.anabolicfitness.net


I don't use cramberry extract, maily just tons of water to flush my kidneys.
 
Well it's about time someone dismounted that myth about milk thistle, snake oil I cried.
Not trying to be redundant here, but how has the "myth" been dismounted. I've seen nothing but a stated opinion regarding the milk thistle "myth."
 
well i got tons of liv-52 (double strength) Will this hinder gains in anyway such as milk thistle has seemed to do? I also have some ALA, bout to do a heavy mass cycle..So whats up with liv-52? later
 
Italianboy said:
Oh finally!!!
It's over a year I say only Glutathione works on liver.
Now a little step haed is done.
I hope that you soon will open your eyes and see that ALA and the other are just water for the 177aa attack on your liver.
Trust me guys.

Yes, BUT you're forgetting ALA increases intra-cellular
glutathione levels by 50-70%....... :)

Now that I have my massive archive with me(Just got here
from Spain), I can prove evrything. The thing is, the
things I say are in my head, already memorized from
years of research. I don't make things up for the
fun of it.

Here goes, Italianboy:

Protection against oxidative stress-induced insulin resistance in rat L6 muscle cells by mircomolar concentrations of alpha-lipoic acid.

Maddux BA, See W, Lawrence JC Jr, Goldfine AL, Goldfine ID, Evans JL.

Diabetes Research Laboratory, Mount Zion Hospital, San Francisco, California 94143-1616, USA. [email protected]

In diabetic patients, alpha-lipoic acid (LA) improves skeletal muscle glucose transport, resulting in increased glucose disposal; however, the molecular mechanism of action of LA is presently unknown. We studied the effects of LA on basal and insulin-stimulated glucose transport in cultured rat L6 muscle cells that overexpress GLUT4. When 2-deoxy-D-glucose uptake was measured in these cells, they were more sensitive and responsive to insulin than wild-type L6 cells. LA, at concentrations < or = 1 mmol/l, had only small effects on glucose transport in cells not exposed to oxidative stress. When cells were exposed to glucose oxidase and glucose to generate H2O2 and cause oxidative stress, there was a marked decrease in insulin-stimulated glucose transport. Pretreatment with LA over the concentration range of 10-1,000 pmol/l protected the insulin effect from inhibition by H2O2. Both the R and S isomers of LA were equally effective.

And here is:

In addition, oxidative stress caused a significant decrease (approximately 50%) in reduced glutathione concentration, along with the rapid activation of the stress-sensitive p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase. Pretreatment with LA prevented both of these events, coincident with protecting insulin action.

See how ALA affects gltahione levels?

These studies indicate that in muscle, the major site of insulin-stimulated glucose disposal, one important effect of LA on the insulin-signaling cascade is to protect cells from oxidative stress-induced insulin resistance.

PMID: 11272154 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

And the kicker........

1: Antioxid Redox Signal 2000 Fall;2(3):473-83 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


(R)-alpha-lipoic acid reverses the age-associated increase in susceptibility of hepatocytes to tert-butylhydroperoxide both in vitro and in vivo.

Hagen TM, Vinarsky V, Wehr CM, Ames BN.

Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California at Berkeley 94720, USA.

Here it goes:

Hepatocytes were isolated from young (3-5 months) and old (24-28 months) rats and incubated with various concentrations of tert-butylhydroperoxide (t-BuOOH). The t-BuOOH concentration that killed 50% of cells (LC50) in 2 hr declined nearly two-fold from 721 +/- 32 microM in cells from young rats to 391 +/- 31 microM in cells from old rats. This increased sensitivity of hepatocytes from old rats may be due, in part, to changes in glutathione (GSH) levels, because total cellular and mitochondrial GSH were 37.7% and 58.3% lower, respectively, compared to

(Thats 37.7% and 58.3% btw. )

cells from young rats. Cells from old animals were incubated with either (R)- or (S)-lipoic acid (100 microM) for 30 min prior to the addition of 300 microM t-BuOOH. The physiologically relevant (R)-form, a coenzyme in mitochondria, as opposed to the (S)-form significantly protected hepatocytes against t-BuOOH toxicity.

Ahem.....

Dietary supplementation of (R)-lipoic acid [0.5% (wt/wt)] for 2 weeks also completely reversed the age-related decline in hepatocellular GSH levels and the increased vulnerability to t-BuOOH as well.

Stress COMPLETELY REVERSED....

PMID: 11229361 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

And to finally squash whatever is left.......

1: Arzneimittelforschung 1992 Jun;42(6):829-31 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Influence of alpha-lipoic acid on intracellular glutathione in vitro and in vivo.

Busse E, Zimmer G, Schopohl B, Kornhuber B.

Abteilung fur Hamatologie und Onkologie, Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universitat, Frankfurt/Main Fed. Rep. of Germany.

The influence of alpha-lipoic acid (CAS 62-46-4) on the amount of intracellular glutathione (GSH) was investigated in vitro and in vivo. Using murine neuroblastoma as well as melanoma cell lines in vitro, a dose-dependent increase of GSH content was observed. Dependent on the source of tumor cells the increase was 30-70% compared to untreated controls. Normal lung tissue of mice also revealed about 50% increase in glutathione upon treatment with lipoic acid. This corresponds with protection from irradiation damage in these in vitro studies. Survival rate of irradiated murine neuroblastoma was increased at doses of 100 micrograms lipoic acid/d from 2% to about 10%. In agreement with the in vitro studies, in vivo experiments with whole body irradiation (5 and 8 Gy) in mice revealed that the number of surviving animals was doubled at a dose of 16 mg lipoic acid/kg. Improvement of cell viability and irradiation protection by the physiological compound lipoic acid runs parallel with an increase of intracellular GSH/GSSG ratio.

PMID: 1418040 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

There are more, but I think I've made my point.

Fonz
 
Silent Method said:

Not trying to be redundant here, but how has the "myth" been dismounted. I've seen nothing but a stated opinion regarding the milk thistle "myth."

Don't start because I'm cranky. MT sucks. PERIOD.
You've just been indoctrinated for too long.

Fonz
 
Actually, now that I think about it, I just have to
put the final nail on MT's coffin.

1: Carcinogenesis 1999 Nov;20(11):2101-8 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Tissue distribution of silibinin, the major active constituent of silymarin, in mice and its association with enhancement of phase II enzymes: implications in cancer chemoprevention.

Zhao J, Agarwal R.

Center for Cancer Causation and Prevention, AMC Cancer Research Center, Denver, CO 80214 and University of Colorado Cancer Center, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver, CO 80262, USA.

Polyphenolic antioxidants are being identified as cancer preventive agents. Recent studies in our laboratory have identified and defined the cancer preventive and anticarcinogenic potential of a polyphenolic flavonoid antioxidant, silymarin (isolated from milk thistle). More recent studies by us found that these effects of silymarin are due to the major active constituent, silibinin, present therein. Here, studies are done in mice to determine the distribution and conjugate formation of systemically administered silibinin in liver, lung, stomach, skin, prostate and pancreas. Additional studies were then performed to assess the effect of orally administered silibinin on phase II enzyme activity in liver, lung, stomach, skin and small bowel. For tissue distribution studies, SENCAR mice were starved for 24 h, orally fed with silibinin (50 mg/kg dose) and killed after 0.5, 1, 2,

Thats 50mg/Kg!!!!!!

So, say a person is 80Kg, thats 4000mg/day NOT
what people take, which is less than 1000mgs/day.

3, 4 and 8 h. The desired tissues were collected, homogenized and parts of the homogenates were extracted with butanol:methanol followed by HPLC analysis. The column eluates were detected by UV followed by electrochemical detection. The remaining homogenates were digested with sulfatase and beta-glucuronidase followed by analysis and quantification. Peak levels of free silibinin were observed at 0.5 h after administration in liver, lung, stomach and pancreas, accounting for 8.8 +/- 1.6, 4. 3 +/- 0.8, 123 +/- 21 and 5.8 +/- 1.1 (mean +/- SD) microg silibinin/g tissue, respectively. In the case of skin and prostate, the peak levels of silibinin were 1.4 +/- 0.5 and 2.5 +/- 0.4, respectively, and were achieved 1 h after administration. With regard to sulfate and beta-glucuronidate conjugates of silibinin, other than lung and stomach showing peak levels at 0.5 h, all other tissues showed peak levels at 1 h after silibinin administration. The levels of both free and conjugated silibinin declined after 0.5 or 1 h in an exponential fashion with an elimination half-life (t((1/2))) of 57-127 min for free and 45-94 min for conjugated silibinin in different tissues. In the studies examining the effect of silibinin on phase II enzymes, oral feeding

This is the part that REALLY cracks me up...


of silibinin at doses of 100 and 200 mg/kg/day showed a moderate to highly significant (P < 0.1-0.001, Student's t-test) increase in both glutathione S-transferase and quinone reductase activities in liver, lung, stomach, skin and small bowel

Can I say damn(almost forgot this part)
100mg/Kg to 200mg/Kg!!!!! ROTLMFAO..........

Moderate to highly significant???? This is science
speak for JACK SHIT. In other words <10%.
Look at the max. P values.
So, to conclude MT's destruction, in order to get the 10%
you'd have to consume between(Use the same 80Kg person)
8 000mg and 16 000mg/day.......LOL


in a dose- and time-dependent manner. Taken together, the results of the present study clearly demonstrate the bioavailability of and phase II enzyme induction by systemically administered silibinin in different tissues, including skin, where silymarin has been shown to be a strong cancer chemopreventive agent, and suggest further studies to assess the cancer preventive and anticarcinogenic effects of silibinin in different cancer models.

Blah, blah, blah......

PMID: 10545412 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

See how in NONE of the MT studies, there is no QUANTITATIVE
measures but only "moderate or significant" conclusions?

The people that manufacture Mulk Thistle must be cracking
up by now at our gullibility.

Fonz
 
Last edited:
Raffaz said:
Fonz,
is liv52 worth bothering with? Cheers

I don't know the ingredients in Liv-52.

Fonz
 
Ingredients are :
Capparis spinosa 65mg
Cichorium intybus 65mg
Mandur Bhasma 33mg
Solanum nigrum 32mg
Terminalia arjuna 32mg
Cassia occidentalis 16mg
Achillea millefolium 16mg
Tamarix gallica 16mg

Hope this helps, its probably crap, but if it is then il stop buying it and spend money on more ALA etc. Cheers

Mick
 
Raffaz said:
Ingredients are :
Capparis spinosa 65mg
Cichorium intybus 65mg
Mandur Bhasma 33mg
Solanum nigrum 32mg
Terminalia arjuna 32mg
Cassia occidentalis 16mg
Achillea millefolium 16mg
Tamarix gallica 16mg

Hope this helps, its probably crap, but if it is then il stop buying it and spend money on more ALA etc. Cheers

Mick

Yep. Definately stop buying it.

Fonz
 
fonz, you are definitely a piece of work!

I still want to know where you get the 600mg/day of ala dose?

Got any human studies? Rat studies are a nice jumping off point but do not mean squat until they are followed up with human studies. Finding one study in rats that "seems" to suggest what you are saying is inconclusive to say the best and extrapolating doses from rat studies is a joke. Unfortunately, all these newbies are just lapping this stuff up. Once again, I urge everyone to go on medline and do the search themselves. Does ala seem to work, yup, it does. Does silymarin have a positive effect, yes, you bet it does(human studies). Does NAC work, yes. Did you read the studies on liv52 before you pronounced it junk fonz? Do some of these things work better than others? Probably but I have seen no head to head comparisons that would really tell us that.
 
Re: fonz, you are definitely a piece of work!

jboldman said:
I still want to know where you get the 600mg/day of ala dose?

Got any human studies? Rat studies are a nice jumping off point but do not mean squat until they are followed up with human studies. Finding one study in rats that "seems" to suggest what you are saying is inconclusive to say the best and extrapolating doses from rat studies is a joke. Unfortunately, all these newbies are just lapping this stuff up. Once again, I urge everyone to go on medline and do the search themselves. Does ala seem to work, yup, it does. Does silymarin have a positive effect, yes, you bet it does(human studies). Does NAC work, yes. Did you read the studies on liv52 before you pronounced it junk fonz? Do some of these things work better than others? Probably but I have seen no head to head comparisons that would really tell us that.

No offense, but YOU'RE NEVER EVER going to see studies of certain drugs going up head yo head. You have to EXTRAPOLATE.
What do you think the medical profession is? AAS-user oriented?
I think NOT.

You're still missing the BLOODY POINT!!!


ALA>MT>THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

So again!!, what is the piint of MT?

I have just demonstrated what a piece of shit liver
aid MT is and you're still going at it.
Has it finally registered in your brain that MT does
squat or what?

I'm getting exceedingly tired of tunnel-visioned people.

Did MT work in the past? Sure. Because THERE WAS NOTHING
BETTER!!!
Would you rather get ZERO liver protection
or approx. 10%?????

With the introduction of ALA, ALL liver aids with the
exception of Tylers, Calcium D-glucarate, and
glutathione(If you want to be 3X as much money yet
get the same as effects as ALA be my guest)
all other liver aids are OBSOLETE!!!

Thats O-B-S-O-L-E-T-E........!!!!!

I swear its beginning to feel I'm talking to a vaccuum....

And, I'll find the 600mg/day therapeutic level study
just to shut you up.

Fonz
 
Fonz

I would like to thank you for this interesting and informative thread, and for your personal consultation with me on this issue. As you know, I have to be very careful about my liver. While I'll still be gobbling down standardized silymarin, this is indeed quality information.

Dexter
 
I've done a test research on 12 people using MT & dbol- MT does stop back pain associated with dbol-take it or not i dont really care i've stated my point....this subject can go on & on ...i'm outta this one------- RADAR
 
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