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Liver Helper Myth Destroyed
- Thread starter Fonz
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Silent Method
New member
Dsaghafi (and everyone else) check this out. Doesn't look too good for cranberry juice - especially if you are taking something hard on your kidneys!
BTW, I couldn't find a single reference to cranberry having any positive effects for the kidneys.
Silent Method said:
Yep. I read that one too.
But, lets be fair. Who's going to be up and about with half-a
-dozen couple of kidney stones in their kidney.
And, some of you are still not seeing the point of my post(Which
I thought I made clear enough)
ALA is to be taken. PERIOD.
Milk Thistle is NOTHING compared to ALA.
ALA does the same things Milk Thistle does(and more).
If ALA is taken, Milk Thistle will not strengthen your liver
any more.
So, if ALA already does what MT does, and MT will not
strngthen your liver any more than ALA does,
then what on earth is the bloody point of taking
Milk Thistle?
Good, bad, or indifferent, this is a perfect example of
how one throws his/her money away without
rea;izing it.
Fonz
smokinghawk
New member
Silent Method, the only problem with those research publications is that they don't say HOW helpful the MT is. Remember, the term "significant" is a scientific term of statistical probability, not a judgement on how effective something is. all that means is that it had *any* effect whatsoever which is not likely due to chance. Even a crappy result would still be called "significant."
I want MT to work, too, because silymarin can be bought cheap at dpsnutrtion.
I found this:
From the Harvard Health Letter:
Q: My neighbor takes something called milk thistle. He likes to drink alcohol and believes the herb will protect him against any kind of liver damage. Is he right?
A: Milk thistle is an herbal medication that has been used since antiquity for a variety of ailments, including snakebites and varicose veins, but most commonly for liver disease. It’s one of the few herbal medications that has been studied extensively. Six studies have evaluated milk thistle to see whether it helps patients with damage to their livers from alcohol. Most, but not all, have shown that some aspects of liver function improve, but it isn’t a consistent pattern. Results have been mixed in viral hepatitis and other liver conditions.
Results like these usually mean that a medication has only mild benefits, if any. Moreover, these studies don’t address the issue of whether milk thistle actually protects the liver, only if it might help people after the damage has been done. Your neighbor shouldn’t be so sure that milk thistle is going to save him from liver problems. Besides, having more than 1–2 alcoholic drinks per day carries health risks for anybody. Think about all those extra calories. Milk thistle probably won’t hurt him, but if it gives a false sense of security about a heavy drinking habit, it might.
Beckmann-Knopp S, Rietbrock S, Weyhenmeyer R, Bocker RH, Beckurts KT, Lang W, Hunz M, Fuhr U. Inhibitory effects of silibinin on cytochrome P-450 enzymes in human liver microsomes. Pharmacol Toxicol. 2000 Jun;86(6):250-6.
I just read the abstract. It found moderate and distinct results in two measurements, but at very high doses.
De Martiis M, Fontana M, Assogna G, D'Ottavi R, D'Ottavi O. Milk thistle (Silybum marianum) derivatives in the therapy of chronic hepatopathies. Clin Ter. 1980 Aug 15;94(3):283-315.
De Martiis M, Fontana M, Sebastiani F, Parenzi A. Silymarin, a membranotropic drug: clinical and experimental observations. Clin Ter. 1977 May 31;81(4):333-62.
These two aren't available. They're Italian and too old to be archived.
Deak G, Muzes G, Lang I, Niederland V, Nekam K, Gonzalez-Cabello R, Gergely P, Feher J. Immunomodulator effect of silymarin therapy in chronic alcoholic liver diseases. Orv Hetil. 1990 Jun 17;131(24):1291-2, 1295-
This study found the effect to be "significant," but the abstract did not specify what significance. Significance can be excellent or poor, just as long as *something* happens. I wish I had better info on this study.
A study that is very current at Saller R , Meier R , Brignoli R. "The use of silymarin in the treatment of liver diseases." Drugs, 61(14): 2035-63, 2001 found that "The available trials in patients with toxic (e.g. solvents) or iatrogenic (e.g. antispychotic or tacrine) liver diseases, which are mostly outdated and underpowered, do not enable any valid conclusions to be drawn on the value of silymarin."
"The exception is an improved clinical tolerance of tacrine. In spite of some positive results in patients with acute viral hepatitis, no formally valid conclusion can be drawn regarding the value of silymarin in the treatment of these infections...Therefore, silymarin may be of use as an adjuvant in the therapy of alcoholic liver disease."
In one trial of 602 patients, "The evidence shows that, compared with placebo, silymarin produces a nonsignificant reduction of total mortality..."
This study began with a review of 525 previous references, and concluded that the overal effect of silmarin was...well, not much.
The good news is that of all herbal remedies examined, only milk thistle was NOT hepatotoxic.
I want MT to work, too, because silymarin can be bought cheap at dpsnutrtion.
I found this:
From the Harvard Health Letter:
Q: My neighbor takes something called milk thistle. He likes to drink alcohol and believes the herb will protect him against any kind of liver damage. Is he right?
A: Milk thistle is an herbal medication that has been used since antiquity for a variety of ailments, including snakebites and varicose veins, but most commonly for liver disease. It’s one of the few herbal medications that has been studied extensively. Six studies have evaluated milk thistle to see whether it helps patients with damage to their livers from alcohol. Most, but not all, have shown that some aspects of liver function improve, but it isn’t a consistent pattern. Results have been mixed in viral hepatitis and other liver conditions.
Results like these usually mean that a medication has only mild benefits, if any. Moreover, these studies don’t address the issue of whether milk thistle actually protects the liver, only if it might help people after the damage has been done. Your neighbor shouldn’t be so sure that milk thistle is going to save him from liver problems. Besides, having more than 1–2 alcoholic drinks per day carries health risks for anybody. Think about all those extra calories. Milk thistle probably won’t hurt him, but if it gives a false sense of security about a heavy drinking habit, it might.
Beckmann-Knopp S, Rietbrock S, Weyhenmeyer R, Bocker RH, Beckurts KT, Lang W, Hunz M, Fuhr U. Inhibitory effects of silibinin on cytochrome P-450 enzymes in human liver microsomes. Pharmacol Toxicol. 2000 Jun;86(6):250-6.
I just read the abstract. It found moderate and distinct results in two measurements, but at very high doses.
De Martiis M, Fontana M, Assogna G, D'Ottavi R, D'Ottavi O. Milk thistle (Silybum marianum) derivatives in the therapy of chronic hepatopathies. Clin Ter. 1980 Aug 15;94(3):283-315.
De Martiis M, Fontana M, Sebastiani F, Parenzi A. Silymarin, a membranotropic drug: clinical and experimental observations. Clin Ter. 1977 May 31;81(4):333-62.
These two aren't available. They're Italian and too old to be archived.
Deak G, Muzes G, Lang I, Niederland V, Nekam K, Gonzalez-Cabello R, Gergely P, Feher J. Immunomodulator effect of silymarin therapy in chronic alcoholic liver diseases. Orv Hetil. 1990 Jun 17;131(24):1291-2, 1295-
This study found the effect to be "significant," but the abstract did not specify what significance. Significance can be excellent or poor, just as long as *something* happens. I wish I had better info on this study.
A study that is very current at Saller R , Meier R , Brignoli R. "The use of silymarin in the treatment of liver diseases." Drugs, 61(14): 2035-63, 2001 found that "The available trials in patients with toxic (e.g. solvents) or iatrogenic (e.g. antispychotic or tacrine) liver diseases, which are mostly outdated and underpowered, do not enable any valid conclusions to be drawn on the value of silymarin."
"The exception is an improved clinical tolerance of tacrine. In spite of some positive results in patients with acute viral hepatitis, no formally valid conclusion can be drawn regarding the value of silymarin in the treatment of these infections...Therefore, silymarin may be of use as an adjuvant in the therapy of alcoholic liver disease."
In one trial of 602 patients, "The evidence shows that, compared with placebo, silymarin produces a nonsignificant reduction of total mortality..."
This study began with a review of 525 previous references, and concluded that the overal effect of silmarin was...well, not much.
The good news is that of all herbal remedies examined, only milk thistle was NOT hepatotoxic.
Silent Method
New member
Fonz, your saying ALA works in exactly the same way as milk thistle - only better. You suggest NO overlap in the way in which they work. I don't buy it and I don't think their is any basis for the idea. No offense, but are you just pulling this stuff out of your ass? You have given no supporting evidence to your claims.
ALA IS a much more potent antioxident than milk thistle. However, take a look at those studies I posted. Milk thistle works by many mechanisms, some of which I'm sure we don't know. Same with ALA. But they do not do the same thing. Upon what do you base the claims that "Milk Thistle is NOTHING compared to ALA, ALA does the same things Milk Thistle does, if ALA is taken, Milk Thistle will not strengthen your liver
any more?"
Here is an abstract on the pharmacology of ALA.
Look, if it's freezing cold outside and I have to stay outdoors all night, the first thing I want is a warm, thick, protective coat. But if I can, I'm sure as hell going to grab a hat! Milk thistle does seem to have benifit that ALA alone doesen't.
BTW, the point of the cranberry study was that if you got some stress on the kidneys, cranberry might be a very bad idea.
ALA IS a much more potent antioxident than milk thistle. However, take a look at those studies I posted. Milk thistle works by many mechanisms, some of which I'm sure we don't know. Same with ALA. But they do not do the same thing. Upon what do you base the claims that "Milk Thistle is NOTHING compared to ALA, ALA does the same things Milk Thistle does, if ALA is taken, Milk Thistle will not strengthen your liver
any more?"
Here is an abstract on the pharmacology of ALA.
Look, if it's freezing cold outside and I have to stay outdoors all night, the first thing I want is a warm, thick, protective coat. But if I can, I'm sure as hell going to grab a hat! Milk thistle does seem to have benifit that ALA alone doesen't.
BTW, the point of the cranberry study was that if you got some stress on the kidneys, cranberry might be a very bad idea.
Silent Method
New member
Welcome to science. No data is anything but a statistical probability, some stronger than others. When we see words such as significant, considerable, substantial, etc, we can guage the strength of that probability. BTW, these are abstracts I'm posting. If I wanted quantified data for most of these I'd have to spring a few bucks for the whole report.
Silent Method said:
I don't think you have to quote some ALA research to me. I've seen
pretty much all of it. 4+ years of taking it sort of does that....
I see were you're coming from BUT while Milk Thistle might
work through other pathways, these pathways are so minor
that ultimately they will factour out as irrelevant.
There are basically 2 phases to liver processing. You cover
them both and you're set. ALA does this TOTALLY. So, again
whats the benefit of MT if ALA already covers all the
important pathways?
Fonz
xonic2xonic
New member
OK I will bite and do some ALA with my next winny and also invest in stock of companies selling this supplement now that the Fonz has spoken 
Anyway do you recommend any particular brands of this stuff?
Thanks!
Anyway do you recommend any particular brands of this stuff?
Thanks!
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