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Lipostabil transdermal?

MrMakaveli

New member
Lipostabil transdermal? (YES+Lipo?)

Could one mix the active ingrediant of lipostabil into a product like yohimburn and have decent results? Or is the molecular weight too high?
 
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MrMakaveli said:
Could one mix the active ingrediant of lipostabil into a product like yohimburn and have decent results? Or is the molecular weight too high?


i read on another board..maybe anarchy, i forgot. Someone said that rubbing lipostabil in is another effective way of taking it, although not as effective as injecting, they also said that the lipostabil works transdermally itself no need to add anything, now the question is, did that guy have any clue about what he was talkign about.
 
I am interesting in the results of the transdermal application. Bump for any other experiences or opinions. Also maybe someone can post some info on this substance.
 
This is very interesting, bump for those in the know.

If transdermal application is possible it may yield better results, as the target area wouldn't consist of many site injection pockets but a more evenly spread blanket (then absorbed through the skin).

I'd guess it's not possible else everyone would already be doing it but I wonder if there's a way of adding / changing the formula to make it work?

Transdermal experts :ryanh: - please respond!
 
Lipostabil = Phosphatylcholine

Phosphatidylcholine is a glycerophospholipid that is involved in the metabolism of several lipid compounds. (INVOLVED only, it is most likely a catalyst...as it is not used up in the chemical reaction of ther lipids in question) A phospholipid is basically a compound that is both fat and water soluble btw. Phosphatylcholine also has a glycerol chain hence the glycero-phospholipid denotation.
Most lipids...i.e. tri-GLYCERIDES, have a glycerol ring in their structure...which is why they convert to glucose with 10% efficiency.
I asked my chem friend, and he says that the molecular weight of phosphatidylcholine is low enough to pass through the epidermal layer. In fact, its used in the cosmetic industry as a carrier agent to penetrate the skin, sort of like we use DMSO(But obviously less potent).

Problem is that Lipostabil is only a catalyst. It starts a chemical reaction that involves lipids...hence you lose fat in the spot you applied it(Well...it forces fat to be released from the cells and then the fat is then able to be burned up for fuel. This would be a good thing to try on your problem fatty tissue areas.). Obviously injecting it into a specific target area would work best, but I think you could see results with the transdermal method. It will most likely take longer to see any effects(When compared to injection), and you'd probably need more of it(Less efficient delivery system), but it would most likely work.

Fonz
 
Interesting. I just heard about lipostabil last week and it seems amazing.

I don't know how crazy I would be about injecting it, but if topical would work, possibly. I have a big enough problem injecting into delts, glutes, and quads...to start doing subway shots (I am assuming subway)....I dunno.
 
Fonz said:
Lipostabil = Phosphatylcholine

Phosphatidylcholine is a glycerophospholipid that is involved in the metabolism of several lipid compounds. (INVOLVED only, it is most likely a catalyst...as it is not used up in the chemical reaction of ther lipids in question) A phospholipid is basically a compound that is both fat and water soluble btw. Phosphatylcholine also has a glycerol chain hence the glycero-phospholipid denotation.
Most lipids...i.e. tri-GLYCERIDES, have a glycerol ring in their structure...which is why they convert to glucose with 10% efficiency.
I asked my chem friend, and he says that the molecular weight of phosphatidylcholine is low enough to pass through the epidermal layer. In fact, its used in the cosmetic industry as a carrier agent to penetrate the skin, sort of like we use DMSO(But obviously less potent).

Problem is that Lipostabil is only a catalyst. It starts a chemical reaction that involves lipids...hence you lose fat in the spot you applied it(Well...it forces fat to be released from the cells and then the fat is then able to be burned up for fuel. This would be a good thing to try on your problem fatty tissue areas.). Obviously injecting it into a specific target area would work best, but I think you could see results with the transdermal method. It will most likely take longer to see any effects(When compared to injection), and you'd probably need more of it(Less efficient delivery system), but it would most likely work.

Fonz

Great, thanks for this Fonz. Ok, I'm going to try transdermal application - would it be worth mixing the lipostabil with something else to make it more effective / better absorbed?

...yohimburn perhaps?
 
Sigmund said:


Great, thanks for this Fonz. Ok, I'm going to try transdermal application - would it be worth mixing the lipostabil with something else to make it more effective / better absorbed?

...yohimburn perhaps?

Thats what I was thinking of doing (The yohimburn, wondering how well it would dissolve, macrophage?). If you decide to do it, keep us updated, I think I might try too.
 
MrMakaveli said:


Thats what I was thinking of doing (The yohimburn, wondering how well it would dissolve, macrophage?). If you decide to do it, keep us updated, I think I might try too.

Will do bro, I've pm'd Macro asking for his thoughts / advice :spin:
 
looking into it, actually this happens to be along the lines of another project- similar concept wise.

the current project uses a slightly different base, so will have to look at the potential and viability in the yohimburn platform model.
 
Is the most common phosphate within the cell’s phospholipid
They are amphipathic and this plays a role in why the lipid bilayer is just that: comprised of two layers. all cell memebrane is made of this stuff. plus its its the brain food.

im just having a cell biology exam ofon this stuff
 
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Sorry.........pretty sure Animal said this route of administration would NOT be effective as the delivery would most likely results in too rapid of an uptake into the bloodstream.

Hopefully, Animal will shed some light.
 
drveejay11 said:
Sorry.........pretty sure Animal said this route of administration would NOT be effective as the delivery would most likely results in too rapid of an uptake into the bloodstream.

Hopefully, Animal will shed some light.

Wouldnt it depend largely on what carrier you used?
 
macrophage69alpha said:
looking into it, actually this happens to be along the lines of another project- similar concept wise.

the current project uses a slightly different base, so will have to look at the potential and viability in the yohimburn platform model.

Cheers Macro :)


Originally posted by drveejay11
Sorry.........pretty sure Animal said this route of administration would NOT be effective as the delivery would most likely results in too rapid of an uptake into the bloodstream.

Hopefully, Animal will shed some light.

I understand what you're saying but think MrMakaveli is on the right track, if the appropriate carrier is used - could be on to a winner.
 
if it work best locally, then why not use a local transdermal delivery as in yohimbine DF.
here is a formula for local delivery trandermal:

50%aloe gel
10%water
10% BA
10%d-limonene
10%propylene glycol

or you can buy yobine DF and add Lipostabil to it
 
x_muscle said:
if it work best locally, then why not use a local transdermal delivery as in avants ab-solved or yohimbine DF.
here is a formula for local delivery trandermal:

50%aloe gel
10%water
10% BA
10%d-limonene
10%propylene glycol

Eagerly awaiting Macro's reccomendation on if Yohimburn devliery will work. I think as soon as I can figure out dosing issues and how much to dissolve in my YES I may just give it a shot.
 
This all sounds really interesting but since we are talking about transdermal delivery and phosphatidylcholine being the catalyst wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to find a domestic supplier of the PC than go to the time & trouble of importing lipostabil ?? as far as I know it has to be ordered from Brazil? - I could be wrong.

Also what about sub-q inj of the PC say before cardio to release the fatty acids for mobilization??

S
 
supreme said:
This all sounds really interesting but since we are talking about transdermal delivery and phosphatidylcholine being the catalyst wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to find a domestic supplier of the PC than go to the time & trouble of importing lipostabil ?? as far as I know it has to be ordered from Brazil? - I could be wrong.

Also what about sub-q inj of the PC say before cardio to release the fatty acids for mobilization??

S

Indeed, I think when we refer to lipostabil here, we are basically referring to PC, lipostabil is just easier to type :D

Sub-q injections would probably be the best route for effectivness(which is still debatable..some love lipo, some hate it).
 
Interesting. Never heard of this product before. I have no doubt the idea has been tried but I think the finding a delivery platform suitable to deliver it to fat cells and not have it absorbed into the blood stream quickly is going to be the hard part. Wonder what kind of delivery solution they used?

I think I read PC is actually used in PLO-gel a transdermal carrier (going to assume this is what Fonz was referring too).

Btw, Karma, good find.
 
Its very new, so I don't think there will be any comparative feedback out anywhere though.
Ingredients: Isopropyl alcohol, benzyl alcohol, octyl salicylate, triglyceride complex, water, d-limonene, carbomer.
 
This may be a dumb question, but, what's wrong with DMSO as a carrier? Too fast?

Also, is there a good (read as: cheap cheap cheap!) source for PC powder already around? Isn't PC found in lectithin in varying amounts of 20-90%? Or am I way off on this?

What about mixing in some acetyl-L carnatine powder just in case? Or, what about finding a substance that will slow down the uptake once through the dermal layers? Hmmmm.... Fun things to think about. I like this thread. Let's keep it going.


Jacob
 
Interesting thread. I've been looking into lipostabil myself. Was going to order from zipmed, but they don't guarantee delivery to CA and WU wanted to charge me $33 just for transferring funds.

I've found a lab that sells 94% phosphatidylcholine, 25 grams for around $52, but the site says it must be shipped frozen, which leads me to believe it's not in a stable form.

Obviously you couldn't inject this raw form: I understand that most lipostabil products are only around 20-25% phosphatidylcholine. Animal actually sells a kit to convert raw phosphatidylcholine into lipostabil, but charges $50 to convert 6 g. which seems a bit high to me.

Still looking for other alternatives.
 
Slowing absporption is somthing to be looked into, I found a ton of stuff on PC actually behing used as a carrier for other things itself so I have to take a look and see what I can draw from that. We need more chemists on this thread my knowledge is severely lacking haha.
 
they changed the description of the product, since yesterday. it says phospholipid instead phosphatidylcholine. phospholipids is a large group of molecuales that include phosphatidylcholine.
 
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Suggestion as to relatively inexpensive lipostabil transdermal:

Using a delivery system similar to Finasol-

- 80ml Water
- 50ml Isopropyl Myristate
- 110ml 99% Isopropyl Alcohol

Dissolve Phosphatidylcholine powder in the above solution (not sure on amount, maybe 100 - 150g?).

Add to spray bottle, apply frequently during the day.

Main problem is still the speedy absorption but frequent application throughout the day could remedy this.

Feedback / opinions welcome :)

----
For ref:

99% Isopropyl Alcohol
http://www.electronics-plus.com/Mer...lus&Product_Code=824-350ML&Category_Code=CLCH
$4.95

Isopropyl Myristate
http://www.lemelange.com/oil_liquid_cream_wax_g_-_p.htm
$10.50 480ml (16 oz)

Phosphatidylcholine (thanks to x_muscle for locating this)
http://www.liverfriend.com/index.php?cPath=2_35
$30.00 (500g)
----
 
Very NICE post Sig, however.......I STILL believe the carrier is too fast. I understand your logic in frequent applications through out the day to compensate for the rapid absorption, I am just not too sure this would work.
 
NJjuice22 said:
you guys would really rather rub something on you multiple times every day than do the injections once a week??

If we can find a suitable carrier I think the fat-loss might be even better than injections (I have ZERO studies to support this, just an idea since you could spread the PC over a larger area as opposted to injections.)
 
MrMakaveli said:


If we can find a suitable carrier I think the fat-loss might be even better than injections (I have ZERO studies to support this, just an idea since you could spread the PC over a larger area as opposted to injections.)

i seriously doubt that rubbing it in over a large area could ever be nearly as effective as shooting it directly into the heart of the fat.
 
NJjuice22 said:


i seriously doubt that rubbing it in over a large area could ever be nearly as effective as shooting it directly into the heart of the fat.

Yeah you're most probably correct but it's a tricky job when you're personally shooting the lipostabil, you need to target exact sites, at the right subdermal layer multiple times (each site being approx. 1 inch apart). Plastic Surgeons are using a special "gun" device to get the best results - you can end up with "dents" and lumps if the procedure is not performed properly.

I think it's worth exploring other options. If you need to spray 3 to 5 times a day to get equal results as the site injections (without the risk of screwing it up) it is, in my opinion, worth pursuing.
 
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Found this over as meso:



It is possible to apply lipostabil to the skin of the area to be treated, it is fully skin absorbable without a transdermal carrier, I only mention this as I injected mine into a troublesome area on my neck, and the subsequent swelling even though it only lasted 3 or 4 days at a time, made me look deformed, which meant several days at a time without going out. Since I hadn't told my family what I was doing, my wife was on the verge of calling a doc. out when she first saw what had happened.
If you do go down the skin application route, take some photos before you begin, as the changes are so subtle that it is going to take at least 4 weeks before you notice much. Apply twice daily and allow to dry naturaly, only apply to the problem area. My colleague has been using this method for his female patients who don't want anyone to know what they are doing, all have seen benefits although the worst cases needed 3 months to completely clear waist fat to an aceptable level.
 
Ok, maybe we've been going about this all wrong. If it's already able to pass through the skin, then we wouldn't need a carrier at all- because it would simply speed things up, right? What we need is a time release: i.e. wrap the area in saran wrap with pc powder distributed across the area. Wear it all day and let the powder gradually "sink" in. Just a theory. But, this is a brainstorm thread.

I wonder if the women in the post above, were just experiencing regular dieting fat loss since it took three months to see good results? - as I've heard that docs also encourage strict diets with this treatment.


Jacob
 
I've been researching and have found that Phosphatidylcholine has a molecular weight greater than 500.

Ref: http://www.avantilipids.com/SoyReferenceStandards.asp)
Ref: http://physioweb.med.uvm.edu/diffusion/frap/membranes/pages/MembrStruct1aside1.htm

This suggests it's going to be less easily absorbed than I believe was first thought. "Lag time" associated with the delivery of the drug across the skin means it would benefit from a good carrier agent such as IPM (isopropyl myristate).

NOTE: Substances with a molecular weight over 500 penetrate the skin very slowly and with difficulty however -

IPM is a fatty acid ester that is approved for use in cosmetics and pharmaceuticals. Its mechanism of action as a penetration enhancer is thought to involve the removal of lipids from the stratum corneum. This creates miniscule holes in the stratum corneum layer through which substances of molecular weights < 700 can shuttle through. IPM may also act as an emollient by coating the skin and sealing in moisture, which further increases the permeability of the skin.

Additionally PC is relatively lipophilic. In general, the more lipophilic the molecule, the more easily it will pass through the stratum corneum. However, extremely lipophilic molecules do not pass through well.

I'm no chemist so if you see errors above please comment and correct me - thanks.
 
Sailbo said:
isnt this topical lechin stuff already in "cutting gel" by nutrasport?

I think they've just used liquid Lecithin in their formula. This is the first form of lecithin, it has a 37% triglyceride level. It contains only 10% of the essential phosphatidylcholine.

Lipostabil is around 98% phosphatidylcholine.

----
• Most commercial forms of lecithin contains only 10-20% phosphatidylcholine.

• Most supplements labelled as "phosphatidylcholine" contain only 35 percent.

Source: http://www.woodmed.com/Phos Choline.htm
----
 
Good post Sigmund. So there is probably a need for a good carrier after all. Are you saying that pc may actually also work in a similar way as IPM? Is there a good place to buy IPM?

I've got some pc powder on order (liverfriend.com) and I'll be trying a couple different methods. Does anyone know if that particular pc powder is of the 35% variety?


Thanks,


Jacob
 
There is a post on avant labs about transdermal lipo..Par Dues seemed to hint against it although he didnt say why.

Did we ever establish if Yohimburn was suitable?

YES the powder mentioned is 35% it is NOT pharm grade as advertised.
 
Good posts - let's keep this thread going :)

I'm just about done researching now - here's where I’m getting my “ingredients” from / how I'll be using the PCTD (Phosphatidylcholine TransDermal):

Ordering:

PC (Phosphatidylcholine) - "Gold Standard" pharmaceutical grade quality.

Source: http://store.yahoo.com/nutrasalpharmaceuticals/phosconoz.html

Transdermal carrier solution:

ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL
ISOPROPYL MYRISTRATE
ISOPROPYL PALMITATE
OLEIC ACID
PROPYLENE GLYCOL
DMSO

Source: http://www.lemelange.com/body_builder_supplies.htm

I'll be mixing the transdemral agent as follows:

40% ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL
15% ISOPROPYL MYRISTRATE
15% ISOPROPYL PALMITATE
10% OLEIC ACID
10% PROPYLENE GLYCOL
10% DMSO

It'll take a while before I receive everything as I'm in the UK (ordering from US).

Once I've mixed the solution I plan on spraying it 3 - 4 times a day... I just hope it doesn't smell to bad :p

Please keep suggestions / ideas coming.

Cheers,

Sig
 
Sigmund said:
Good posts - let's keep this thread going :)

I'm just about done researching now - here's where I’m getting my “ingredients” from / how I'll be using the PCTD (Phosphatidylcholine TransDermal):

Ordering:

PC (Phosphatidylcholine) - "Gold Standard" pharmaceutical grade quality.

Source: http://store.yahoo.com/nutrasalpharmaceuticals/phosconoz.html

Transdermal carrier solution:

ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL
ISOPROPYL MYRISTRATE
ISOPROPYL PALMITATE
OLEIC ACID
PROPYLENE GLYCOL
DMSO

Source: http://www.lemelange.com/body_builder_supplies.htm

I'll be mixing the transdemral agent as follows:

40% ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL
15% ISOPROPYL MYRISTRATE
15% ISOPROPYL PALMITATE
10% OLEIC ACID
10% PROPYLENE GLYCOL
10% DMSO

It'll take a while before I receive everything as I'm in the UK (ordering from US).

Once I've mixed the solution I plan on spraying it 3 - 4 times a day... I just hope it doesn't smell to bad :p

Please keep suggestions / ideas coming.

Cheers,

Sig

The entire board will be ineterested in your results bro... let us know.
 
kbrkbr said:
Sig, could you tell us how you came up with this particular recipe? Thanks.

I've been looking around on other boards, looking at other transdermal formulas and have spent alot time using Google to find out more about each "ingredient" :user:.

Most info pertaining to the transdermal carrier solution came from a single post on another board, I don't have the URL but I copied the text into my (far too large) notepad file on this topic:

ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL - Used in many TD formulas, it is primarily a solvent but in a diluted from acts as a carrier solution and assists in binding the other components. It also has some penetration properties of its own.

ISOPROPYL PALMITATE - Used as a lubricant, it softens up the skin so that it is penetrated more easily. Also helps the solution dry more quickly.

ISOPROPYL MYRISTRATE – Again used in many transdermal solutions as an excellent carrier / skin penetrator.

OLEIC ACID - A powerful penetration enhancer.

PROPYLENE GLYCOL - Oily substance that keeps the moisture from leaving the skin. The more moisture the easier it is for the PC to penetrate.

DMSO – Very powerful penetration enhancer. This may irritate the skin at the quantity suggested so I might reduce the overall amount.

The percentage split on my previous post is a tried and tested formula, which apparently provides excellent results.

ProtienFiend said:
is this stuff controlled in anyway?

Not as far as I’m aware (I’m getting my ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL locally from the UK – as it’s a hazardous material to ship).
 
Sigmund said:


I've been looking around on other boards, looking at other transdermal formulas and have spent alot time using Google to find out more about each "ingredient" :user:.

Most info pertaining to the transdermal carrier solution came from a single post on another board, I don't have the URL but I copied the text into my (far too large) notepad file on this topic:

ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL - Used in many TD formulas, it is primarily a solvent but in a diluted from acts as a carrier solution and assists in binding the other components. It also has some penetration properties of its own.

ISOPROPYL PALMITATE - Used as a lubricant, it softens up the skin so that it is penetrated more easily. Also helps the solution dry more quickly.

ISOPROPYL MYRISTRATE – Again used in many transdermal solutions as an excellent carrier / skin penetrator.

OLEIC ACID - A powerful penetration enhancer.

PROPYLENE GLYCOL - Oily substance that keeps the moisture from leaving the skin. The more moisture the easier it is for the PC to penetrate.

DMSO – Very powerful penetration enhancer. This may irritate the skin at the quantity suggested so I might reduce the overall amount.

The percentage split on my previous post is a tried and tested formula, which apparently provides excellent results.



Not as far as I’m aware (I’m getting my ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL locally from the UK – as it’s a hazardous material to ship).

So you think it wont absorb too fast? BTW: You got Karama great posts on this thread.
 
MrMakaveli said:


So you think it wont absorb too fast? BTW: You got Karama great posts on this thread.

I'm still concerned about absorption and may experiment with different quantities of each component - problem is I don't want it to irritate the skin too much and if it's too oily and not absorbed relatively quickly the chances are it will.

I think frequent application will be the best approach.

Once I'm set up and ready to go I'll keep a diary of how I get on.

NOTE: It's going to take a while for all the ingredients to arrive and I've not placed orders for everything yet so please bear with me.

Thanks for the Karma bro ;)
 
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macrophage69alpha said:
looking into it, actually this happens to be along the lines of another project- similar concept wise.

the current project uses a slightly different base, so will have to look at the potential and viability in the yohimburn platform model.

don't be releasing anything unless it's been thoroughly beta-tested.

by me.
 
juve said:


holy shit, they got a buncha really flagged stuff :o

No kidding...pure DXM? Heh I find it funny LR was a target of busts but 2C-I, DXM, and 5-Meo-AMT can be sold "legallly"
 
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LOLOL, I think that post better get edited :o
what's more disconcerting is that they're based in the US - I'd refrain from any purchases..
 
juve said:
LOLOL, I think that post better get edited :o
what's more disconcerting is that they're based in the US - I'd refrain from any purchases..


Try searching www.dejanews.com/usenet for *Edited*


After seeing where these guys advertise I think I'm in agreement with some editing.
 
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Alright, what products are we all looking at for carriers that will get the product to exactly where we want it? This is the part that confuses me. I can see why it is important to keep it out of the sub-dermal bloodstream (or whatever it's called) and get it into the fat, but how? What will do that?

Will glycerol actually help?

I've got my powder (the 35% mix) and find that when I mix it with any liquid (DMSO or whatever) it gets very "gel like." It clumps real bad. However, when it and my skin is dry, it spreads evenly. Perhaps one of the things to think about would be making a spray that is separate from the powder and applying the powder first?

Again, is DMSO even any kind of viable option? Or, IF the PC can pass through the skin itself would it just be too quickly taken up into the bloodstream?

Opinions?


Jacob

(ps. I'm just asking these questions to get more conversation/brain-storming going. I know nobody has all the answers yet.)
 
I just want to throw in my experiences from the last couple days. I've been using this powder with DMSO and by itself (DMSO once per day, and a couple more times a day alone). I've been putting it on only one side of my abdomen and love handles.

There is a slight, but noticeable difference (ok, stopped laughing yet?), seriously. I really didn't think anything much of it, but asked my girlfriend. She says, " One side looks smoother (the testing side) and the other is lumpier (cellulite)." I can also see that the treated side is "tighter." I really don't know why- whether it is drug action, or some kind of minor diuretic effect from the DMSO? But, when I pinch the fat on my lower abs, it is painful on the treated side. It's just minor pain, but it's there. It's like that everywhere I've put the powder/DMSO.

If I had done both sides, I wouldn't notice anything- it's that minor. But, that's what is going on so far.


Jacob
 
jacshelb said:
I just want to throw in my experiences from the last couple days. I've been using this powder with DMSO and by itself (DMSO once per day, and a couple more times a day alone). I've been putting it on only one side of my abdomen and love handles.

There is a slight, but noticeable difference (ok, stopped laughing yet?), seriously. I really didn't think anything much of it, but asked my girlfriend. She says, " One side looks smoother (the testing side) and the other is lumpier (cellulite)." I can also see that the treated side is "tighter." I really don't know why- whether it is drug action, or some kind of minor diuretic effect from the DMSO? But, when I pinch the fat on my lower abs, it is painful on the treated side. It's just minor pain, but it's there. It's like that everywhere I've put the powder/DMSO.

If I had done both sides, I wouldn't notice anything- it's that minor. But, that's what is going on so far.


Jacob



Interesting. I recall animal saying the injected area would swell or hurt for many days after injection so the pain could be a sign it's working. If you can, try taking pics, a difference should be easier to see with pictures than with the eye but keep the updates coming, karma to you!
 
I think it is definately better with the DMSO as I have have no pain there today (didn't use DMSO the last day and a half). -Unfortunately, stinky s**t!

I will take some pics. I think I'll continue using it on just one side for a month and get some pics of the difference up at that time.

Thanks for the karma.


Jacob
 
jacshelb said:
I just want to throw in my experiences from the last couple days. I've been using this powder with DMSO and by itself (DMSO once per day, and a couple more times a day alone). I've been putting it on only one side of my abdomen and love handles.

There is a slight, but noticeable difference (ok, stopped laughing yet?), seriously. I really didn't think anything much of it, but asked my girlfriend. She says, " One side looks smoother (the testing side) and the other is lumpier (cellulite)." I can also see that the treated side is "tighter." I really don't know why- whether it is drug action, or some kind of minor diuretic effect from the DMSO? But, when I pinch the fat on my lower abs, it is painful on the treated side. It's just minor pain, but it's there. It's like that everywhere I've put the powder/DMSO.

If I had done both sides, I wouldn't notice anything- it's that minor. But, that's what is going on so far.
Jacob
Good post(s) - encouraging J. I’ve got pure Phosphatidylcholine (PhosChol) on order, I’ll be trying it with 2 different delivery formulas – one of which includes DMSO (as posted previously) and another formula (more skin friendly) with Emu oil:

Formula 1

Isopropyl alcohol
Isopropyl Myristate
Isopropyl Palmitate
Oleic Acid
Propylene Glycol
DMSO
l-menthol
Peppermint Oil

Formula 2

Aloe
Emu oil
Squalene
Cyclomethicone
Jojoba oil
l-menthol
Peppermint Oil

How do you find the frequent application of DMSO on your skin – you mention slight pain any other significant irritation?

… thanks for the info :)
 
if u want a trandermal local delivery, then you dont need the DMSO because it will carry the Phosphatidylcholine to the blood streem rather to the spot you want it to be at.
 
x_muscle said:
if u want a trandermal local delivery, then you dont need the DMSO because it will carry the Phosphatidylcholine to the blood streem rather to the spot you want it to be at.


Problem is DMSO may allow delivery too quickly leaving most of PC in bloodstream.
 
I'm also concerned about the DMSO carrying it too quickly. Did we ever come up with something that would slow it down or get it to stay in the target area longer?

I'm doing DMSO twice a day. It does irritate my skin, but it doesn't seem to get any worse as I go along - so that's good at least. The best way I've found to get a good mix (with a minimal amount of DMSO) is to apply a nice thin layer of the DMSO (liquid form) to all the areas I want to cover. Then, "sprinkle" on powder. The powder will start to dissolve on the skin (but doesn't seem to when mixed with DMSO only, as in a separate container- it just clumps) and then I can spread it around and make a sort of "foamy" paste. It seems to absorb pretty good this way. I let it sit as long as I can stand it - about five minutes- and then gently rinse it off. The nice thing about it is that if I can taste DMSO in my mouth soon after, I know I've at least gotten something into my system!

Does anyone think that menthol (say, as found in vic's vapo rub) would make any better a carrier for our purposes? Just curious, as some have mentioned menthol.


Jacob
 
Nice!...please keep posting experiences and investigations!
 
jacshelb said:
I'm also concerned about the DMSO carrying it too quickly. Did we ever come up with something that would slow it down or get it to stay in the target area longer?

I'm doing DMSO twice a day. It does irritate my skin, but it doesn't seem to get any worse as I go along - so that's good at least. The best way I've found to get a good mix (with a minimal amount of DMSO) is to apply a nice thin layer of the DMSO (liquid form) to all the areas I want to cover. Then, "sprinkle" on powder. The powder will start to dissolve on the skin (but doesn't seem to when mixed with DMSO only, as in a separate container- it just clumps) and then I can spread it around and make a sort of "foamy" paste. It seems to absorb pretty good this way. I let it sit as long as I can stand it - about five minutes- and then gently rinse it off. The nice thing about it is that if I can taste DMSO in my mouth soon after, I know I've at least gotten something into my system!

Does anyone think that menthol (say, as found in vic's vapo rub) would make any better a carrier for our purposes? Just curious, as some have mentioned menthol.


Jacob

Perhaps a mixture of DMSO and menthol? I had some good info to post about menthol but it's 4 am and I'm almost dead so I'll post it tommorow. I still think Yohimburn+PC is a good idea and am attempting to try it..waiting on PC.
 
damn I'm interested in your experiment...sounds good!.
 
Glad to hear that there are some other guys trying different methods. This way, we can learn so much more.

I'm down to putting on the DMSO/pc mix just once at night (just too much hassle to do it more). It still seems to be working though. Like I say, I'll get pics up in a few weeks here.

I'm also gonna try the menthol. There's got to be a more user friendly method out there. Just think, if you could get an effective mix to use in a spray form, you could spray it all over everyday! But, with DMSO the pain would be too much.


Jacob
 
Another article on transdermal delivery by Par Deus.

By: Par Deus

At present, the most common form of delivery for bodybuilding and sports supplementation is via the oral route. While this has the notable advantage of easy administration, it also has significant drawbacks -- namely poor bioavailabiltity due to hepatic metabolism (first pass) and the tendency to produce rapid blood level spikes (both high and low), leading to a need for high and/or frequent dosing, which can be both cost prohibitive and inconvenient.

In addition, some products would greatly benefit from targeted delivery to various body tissues, such as adipose tissue, in order to allow high dosing, while avoiding some of the side effects associated with systemic delivery and its subsequent distribution to the CNS (and various other tissues).

Many potentially promising supplements suffer from one or more of the above inadequacies, making their oral intake either less than optimal or a complete waste of time -- these include prohormones, andrenergic agents such as ephedrine and yohimbine, and flavones such as chrysin.

Problems

The pharmaceutical industry has encountered these same problems with various drugs, and, as such, there has been a wealth of research in the area. One of the methods most often utilized has been transdermal delivery -- meaning transport of therapeutic substances through the skin for systemic effect (1). Closely related is percutaneous delivery, which is transport into target tissues, with an attempt to AVOID systemic effects (1).

However, the skin provides an excellent barrier to the entry of foreign substances (toxins, microorganisms, etc.) into the body -- in fact , along with keeping water in, it evolved for exactly that purpose (2). Thus, it is not just a matter of rubbing a drug or supplement in and waiting for it to take effect. A drug and its delivery system must possess certain physiochemical properties in order to provide for efficient passage through the skin barrier.

Physically

Let us begin by taking a look at the physical make-up of the skin, so as to understand exactly how it produces this barrier, so that we may develop targeted strategies to defeat it.

The primary barrier for entry into the skin is the stratum corneum (SC), with transport occurring primarily through the intracellular regions -- sweat ducts and hair follicles are also paths of entry, but they are considered rather insignificant (1). These regions are made up highly ordered lipid bilayers, composed of various (non-polar) lipids -- ceramides, cholesterol, fatty acids, and triglycerides (3) -- stacked on top of each other, each bilayer separated from the others by a very thin water sheet associated with the lipid's polar head (4).

Diffusion through this area is hindered by hydrogen bonding, making polar (hydrophilic) substances particularly resistant to penetration. Conversely, it offers relatively little resistance to fairly non-polar (lipophilic) compounds (5). It has been suggested that a partition coefficient (Log P) of around 3 is ideal for penetration of skin (6).

Separate, "polar" pathways have been proposed to account for higher than predicted permeability shown by some polar substances (7). However, an alternate explanation was given by Pugh et. al., who showed the afore mentioned hydrogen bonding to be saturable, which would allow more efficient penetration once a certain threshold is reached (8).

Below the SC is the viable epidermis and the dermis. Because of its aqueous, hydrophilic nature, this region provides substantial resistance to the diffusion of lipophilic compounds (9, 10) and is perhaps even the rate-limiting step in their transport (11, 12). Polar compounds, on the other hand, traverse this area easily.

Ideal Situation

We can now begin to look at what the ideal drug for transdermal delivery would be, as well as what steps can be taken, via the delivery system, to manipulate the physical properties of the drug and the skin to improve efficiency of delivery.

Because substances must pass in the spaces between cells, drugs with low molecular weight are preferred (13). And, as mentioned earlier, it also helps if the drug possesses fairly good lipid solubility -- Log P of 3 or so (fortunately, androgens fit this description quite nicely). As Log P decreases, diffusion through intracellular lipids is hindered, as it increases diffusion through aqueous layers of both the epidermis and dermis, as well as those associate with the polar heads of the intracellular lipids, becomes rate limiting.

We cannot always guarantee that the substance we wish to deliver will fit the afore mentioned ideal -- and even if it does, we still do not get even close to our ideal delivery efficiency of 100%. Thus, an enormous amount of research has been conducted and a number of strategies/technologies have been developed to address this issue.

The Equation

The following equation has been suggested to estimate delivery of a substance through the skin (14):

dQ/dT = (P.C.)Cv(DA/L)

Or, a bit more in English:

Rate of penetration [qQ/dT] = (Partition Coefficent between stratum corneum and vehicle [P.C.]) times ( The Concentration of drug in vehicle [Cv]) times ({average Diffusion [D] times Surface Area of application [A]} divided by {the effective Thickness of the skin barrier [L]})

We will now define the above terms as well as take a look at how we can manipulate them to increase the rate of penetration for a given substance. Obviously, some of them we will not be able to manipulate.

Simply Defined

Partition Coefficient (P.C.) -- For an individual substance, this is generally measured as the Octanol:Water ratio or Log P, and is a measure of a given substance's relative affinity for Octanol vs. Water. The higher it is, the more it tends to be attracted to Octanol and vice versa. To simplify, it is a measure of lipophilicity vs. hydrophilicity.

Obviously, if we are set on delivering a certain drug, this is a constant. However, in our situation, it is the P.C. between our drug in its vehicle and the skin that we are interested in, so some manipulation is possible. Due to solubility issues, which we will go into more later, our vehicle will not necessarily be water. It will often be a volatile solvent such as alcohol or acetone, both of which would actually reduce the effective ratio between the two. We are also interested in partitioning into the stratum corneum -- which is a bit more polar/hydrophilic -- rather than into Octanol (5).

This situation will have opposing effects on lipophilic and hydrophilic drugs. A reduction in the Log P will increase the P.C. for hydrophilic substances, and decrease it for lipophilic ones.

At this point, you may be wondering why, if increasing P.C. is a good thing, we would purposefully employ a solvent which will reduce it as our vehicle -- the answer is that the decrease in P.C. is going to be insignificant compared to the increase in diffusion we get from increasing solubility. This will be addressed further under the "Concentration" aspect of the equation.

Diffusion (D) -- This is the process by which a substance moves from one area to another. It is driven by thermal agitation and requires a concentration gradient. In other words, the area that a substance is going to have must a lower concentration of our drug than the area it is coming from. This is an issue of particular importance for lipophilic compounds (such as prohormones), that, in my opinion, has been overlooked in previously existing transdermal drug and supplement formulations.

Lipophilic substances diffuse easily through stratum corneum lipids, but have much more trouble with the aqueous layers below (the vice versa is true for hydrophilic substances). If transport slows too much in any layer of tissue -- be it stratum corneum, epidermis, or dermis -- diffusion slows, causing a buildup in the outer layers.

It is well documented that lipophilic compounds such as steroids have a high affinity for the stratum corneum, due to hydrogen bonding, attaching themselves and forming depots in the area (15, 16). This is fine under experimental conditions, where the drug is protected and will thus be free to slowly diffuse for several days. But, in the real world, skin (hint: the stratum corneum) is naturally shed, and people hopefully take showers, removing even more -- and taking your drug with it.

Thus, it of great importance to take into account diffusion through the epidermal and dermal regions, and a vehicle which could facilitate the diffusion of our drug through these regions would be a highly efficacious addition.

We would also like to maximize the rate of diffusion through the stratum corneum itself, not only for hydrophilic compounds, but lipophilic ones as well, which despite having good diffusion rates, are certainly far from ideal. The primary means of accomplishing this is through the use of various penetration enhancers (technically, what we have referred to as "vehicles", are penetration enhancers, but in this case I am referring specifically to enhancements which result from alterations in the physical structure of the stratum corneum -- whereas the vehicles primarily effect properties of the drug itself).

An ideal penetration enhancer will disrupt the barrier function of the skin without compromising its barrier effects on microorganism and toxins -- and without damaging cells (13). This has primarily been done through the use of chemical penetration enhancers.

There are two primary means by which chemical penetration enhancement occurs. The first is via lipid extraction -- it has been shown that the degree of drug penetration is proportional to % lipid extraction (3). Substances which fall into this category include Azone, isopropyl myristate, pyrrollidones, and terpenes (17). These perturb the water resistance function of the stratum corneum (18) -- and, as such, it will primarily enhance penetration of hydrophilic compounds. The efficacy of these substances is not typically linear with dosage (12) -- a certain concentration must be reached before significant extraction occurs -- meaning a thin layer will not really do a great deal.

The second mechanism is via disruption of the stratum corneum's highly ordered lipid bilayers. As we described earlier, it consists of lipophilic lipid regions, each separated by a thin layer of water. This aqueous layer is detrimental to the diffusion of lipophilic substances. Certain penetration enhancers such as unsaturated fatty acids, padimate O, and possibly isopropyl myristate and octyl salicylate, can disorder these bilayers, forming separate pools of oil within the stratum corneum's intracellular spaces, which lipophilic compounds can diffuse through much more freely (3,19,20). This would also be expected to help hydrophilic compounds, if aqueous pools were formed, and there is data suggesting both the capability of "straight through aqueous channels" (21), as well as enhancement with a combination of propylene glycol, which is hydrophilic, and unsaturated fatty acids (5).

Concentration (C) -- This is the amount of substance per unit volume of vehicle. In our case, the only part which we must be concerned with is that which is dissolved in the vehicle, as the penetration rate of undissolved substances is comparably insignificant (3). The importance of solubility is the reason a solvent carrier is typically used despite its reduction of P.C. For example, corticosterone's P.C. is reduced twofold by the addition of 50% ethanol to saline, but its solubility is increased 100 fold, giving a 40 fold penetration enhancement (3).

This solubility issue can become a problem if the vehicle evaporates before the drug has fully partitioned into skin, rendering it a useless precipitate (meaning it is left as a powder on the skin) -- an occurrence which has been reported both in the literature (3,5) and with real world use of existing transdermals. Thus, is is a good idea to also incorporate a small amount of a less volatile solvent such as fatty acids, terpenes, or isopropyl myristate into a transdermal formulation.

Surface Area (A) -- this should be rather straightforward. The larger the surface area of application, all else being equal, the greater the rate of penetration. Obviously, we can manipulate this to some extent.

Skin Thickness (L) -- again, fairly straightforward, the thicker the effective area of the skin barrier -- meaning the stratum corneum, the dermis and epidermis, the slower the rate of penetration. We cannot change our skin thickness, and though we can change the site of application, the areas with the thinnest skin, such as eyelids and scrotum, are areas we do not really want to use.

I think it should now be clear that, despite the claims of some, we can vastly improve the effectiveness of transdermals formulation with strategic manipulations of both the drug and the skin via the use of specific vehicles and chemical penetration enhancers. To see this applied to real world use of transdermal prohormones, take a look at this month's segment of Pimpology.

Before I conclude, I will also say a bit about "percutaneous delivery". As mentioned earlier, the goal of this is delivery of drug to target tissues, while AVOIDING systemic delivery as much as is possible (1). In the pharmaceutical realm, this has been pursued primarily for antibiotics and NSAIDS -- the former, to avoid destruction of systemic microflora (so-called "good bacteria"), and the latter to avoid hepatic recirculation, which is responsible for gastrointestinal problems (22,23).

In the supplement realm, this has tremendous applications for fat loss products such as yohimbine and EC, which ideally would reach fat cells in high doses, without the dangerous side effects of high central nervous system levels. This would allow us to achieve true "spot reduction". I will go into more detail on this, in my segment on LipoDerm-Y (our topical yohimbine) in next month's Pimpology column.

Conclusion

I believe transdermal delivery is the future of bodybuilding and sports supplementation. It has given us the most effective category of supplement to date -- the transdermal prohormone -- and it is only going to get better. Companies that have jumped on it early, such as Avant Labs, ErgoPharm, and Biotest, are way ahead of the game. However, "the future" may be fairly short-lived, as there are a number of technologies in their infancy, that have the possibility of blowing transdermals out of the water. That will be a subject we will look at at another time.

Questions and comments on this article can be sent to [email protected]

REFERENCES
1. Roberts MS. Targeted drug delivery to the skin and deeper tissues: role of physiology, solute structure and disease.Clin Exp Pharmacol Physiol 1997 Nov;24(11):874-9
2. Blank, I.H. Penetration of Low Molecular weight Alcohols into skin. J. Invest Dermatol. 1964 (43):415-20
3. Johnson ME, Mitragotri S, Patel A, Blankschtein D, Langer R Synergistic effects of chemical enhancers and therapeutic ultrasound on transdermal drug delivery. J Pharm Sci 1996 Jul;85(7):670-9
4. Forslind B, Lindberg M, Roomans GM, Pallon J, Werner-Linde Y Aspects on the physiology of human skin: studies using particle probe analysis Microsc Res Tech 1997 Aug 15;38(4):373-86
5. Barry BW, Bennett SL J Pharm Pharmacol Effect of penetration enhancers on the permeation of mannitol, hydrocortisone and progesterone through human skin.1987 Jul;39(7):535-46
6. Hansch C, Dunn WJ J Pharm Sci Linear relationships between lipophilic character and biological activity of drugs.1972 Jan;61(1):1-19
7. Lai PM, Roberts MS An analysis of solute structure-human epidermal transport relationships in epidermal iontophoresis using the ionic mobility: pore model J Control Release 1999 Apr 19;58(3):323-33
8. Pugh WJ et. al. Epidermal Permeability-penetrant Structure Relationships. Int J Pharm 1996 (138):149-67
9. Roberts MS et al. The percutaneous absorption of phenolic compounds: the mechanism of diffusion across the stratum corneum. J Pharm Pharmacol 1978 Aug;30(8):486-90
10. Flynn GL, Yalkowsky SH J Pharm Sci Correlation and prediction of mass transport across membranes. I. Influence of alkyl chain length on flux-determining properties of barrier and diffusant.1972 Jun;61(6):838-52
11. Baker EJ, Hadgraft J Pharm Res In vitro percutaneous absorption of arildone, a highly lipophilic drug, and the apparent no-effect of the penetration enhancer Azone in excised human skin1995 Jul;12(7):993-7
12. Koyama Y, Bando H, Yamashita F, Takakura Y, Sezaki H, Hashida M Pharm Res Comparative analysis of percutaneous absorption enhancement by d-limonene and oleic acid based on a skin diffusion model.1994 Mar;11(3):377-83
13. Kanikkannan N, Kandimalla K, Lamba SS, Singh M Structure-activity relationship of chemical penetration enhancers in transdermal drug delivery.Curr Med Chem 2000 Jun;7(6):593-608
14. Higuchi T J Soc Cosmetic Chemists 1960 (11) 85
15. Menczel E, Maibach HI In vitro human percutaneous penetration of benzyl alcohol and testosterone: epidermal-dermal retention J Invest Dermatol . 1970 May;54(5):386-94
16. Miselnicky SR et. al. Influence of solubility, protein binding, and percuteaneous absorption on reservoir formation in skin. J Soc Cosmet Chem 1988 (39) 169-177
17. Ogiso T, Iwaki M, Paku T J Pharm Sci Effect of various enhancers on transdermal penetration of indomethacin and urea, and relationship between penetration parameters and enhancement factors.1995 Apr;84(4):482-8
18. Berardesca E, Herbst R, Maibach H Plastic occlusion stress test as a model to investigate the effects of skin delipidization on the stratum corneum water holding capacity in vivo Dermatology 1993;187(2):91-4
19. Mak VH, Potts RO, Guy RH Percutaneous penetration enhancement in vivo measured by attenuated total reflectance infrared spectroscopy. Pharm Res 1990 Aug;7(8):835-4
20. Cooper ER J Pharm Sci Increased skin permeability for lipophilic molecules.1984 Aug;73(8):1153-6
21. Zewert TE, Pliquett UF, Vanbever R, Langer R, Weaver JC Creation of transdermal pathways for macromolecule transport by skin electroporation and a low toxicity, pathway-enlarging molecule. Bioelectrochem Bioenerg 1999 Oct;49(1):11-20
22. Berti JJ, Lipsky JJ Mayo Clin Proc Transcutaneous drug delivery: a practical review. 1995 Jun;70(6):581-6
23. Mikulak SA, Vangsness CT, Nimni ME Transdermal delivery and accumulation of indomethacin in subcutaneous tissues in rats. J Pharm Pharmacol 1998 Feb;50(2):153-8
 
keep bumpin
 
I'm trying lipostabil (Aventis Endovena) via injection and so far, after three weeks, am thoroughly unimpressed. I fear that if the injectible form doesn't work, transdermal might no either.
 
Fellas, I'm still using my homeade transdermal mix. DMSO, a little aloe, and a gel made of the cheap PC and iso alcohol. I got pics taken, but haven't had them developed - been busy breaking up with my ex and moving.

But, the other day I was talking to my aunt (who is a beautician and around 40 years old) and she was really curious about the stuff. I was just around her and a few other relatives so I said, "Here, I'll just show you. (took off my shirt) "I put it on one side but not the other. Can you tell which one?" Immediately she gasps (she really did, but she might care a bit more about fatloss/cellulite than most people) and says, "I can see it right now. Your right side is way smaller." Then I showed her the love handles from behind. She was amazed and demanded I give her some. She hasn't stopped talking about it since.

Everyone else in the room was also impressed with the difference. Somebody said, "Are you sure you didn't just have a lot more fat on one side?" LOL, no, I didn't.

I don't see my results as super dramatic (whether anyone will even notice anything big in my pics when I get them, I don't know). But, I can tell something (pics taken after 3 weeks, I'm on week 4 now). And, my friends can actually see something happening. It's so cheap and it definately does work.

If you are skeptical, try using it on just one side like I did. You might notice a little difference in a few days and a big difference after a month. I've still got plenty of fat, but it reduced quite a bit on one side while the other stayed nice and plump!



Jacob
 
very interesting!...
 
Just got more YES and PC is in my posession, may wait until I'm slightly leaner to give this a go but a bigger question is how much I can get dissolved in YES w/o oversatturating the solution (if that makes any sense?...It's late and I'm not thinking very clearly at the moment)
 
are you planing to use YES as delivery carrier for PC?
 
djufo said:
are you planing to use YES as delivery carrier for PC?

Planning on trying it..not sure how well it's going to work however.

I wish AF still sold the carrier solution (Didnt they used too?). It would make life much easier haha.

Maybe Macro can chime in on how much (if any?) I can get into YES or if it will even work.
 
MrMakaveli said:
Just got more YES and PC is in my posession, may wait until I'm slightly leaner to give this a go but a bigger question is how much I can get dissolved in YES w/o oversatturating the solution (if that makes any sense?...It's late and I'm not thinking very clearly at the moment)

is the phophatidyl choline you want to use, powder or oil? also what percentage purity? other constituents (if any)
 
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