Lets debate obesity

[Lao Tzu]

You muthafukkas wont reply to my threads. My methuselah thread, my iraq torture thread, my obesity myth thread. I blame everyone but myself.

So lets debate obesity. I will take the pro obesity argument, and everyone else can have the anti-obesity argument.

Pro obesity:

We are a culture that tries to value humans for their internal worth, not their appearance. Our war on obesity and bodyfat is a rollback of progress on issues of tolerance for others because their physical appearance is different than we ourselves would like to look or would like others to look. We should have far more tolerance for physical diversity than we do if we are to stake a claim to being a devleoped, tolerant nation.

Someone take the anti side, and we'll rap.

 

[Johnny Cakes]

You are so fat, when you stood up you won a weight lifting competition!!!

 

[FISHTALES]

we are still animals, only a few steps out of the jungle, technology maybe evolving exponentialy, but our basic instincts are evolving much slower. there are certain characteristics physically that drive us to reproduce, and obesity, except in hammys case, is usually not one that attracts opposite sexs to each other.

 

[gonelifting]

We are a culture that tries to value humans for their internal worth, not their appearance.

This is where you are wrong. Are you serious?

 

[Smurfy]

dude - come on. Patti Labelle is on right now. There's no time for forced debates.

 

[biteme]

I don't care if someone's fat. Most people are fat. I'm not physically attracted to obese women, but I don't think any less of fat people. They are just not motivated. Physicaly appearance is not that important to them. The real issue is health. It's not healthy to be obese, so that's the reason people shouldn't be obese.

 

[biteme]

My current girlfriend is overweight. She has a very pretty face but she's overweight. She is trying to change. She eats healthy and is going to start an exercise program. In order for us to possibly be together long term, she'll have to stick to it, because it's a deal breaker for me. You either live an active healthy lifestyle or I can't be with you.

 

[velvett]

I don't care if someone's fat. Most people are fat. I'm not physically attracted to obese women, but I don't think any less of fat people. They are just not motivated. Physicaly appearance is not that important to them. The real issue is health. It's not healthy to be obese, so that's the reason people shouldn't be obese.

Um YES!

 

[bluepeter]

While the image of obesity being negative is certainly tied to our obsession with appearance, I think that has changed at least partly to health. It isn't healthy and people not being healthy costs all of us. Ties nicely into our UHC debate my friend

 

[Lao Tzu]

Um YES!

nope. Numerous things are unhealthy for a person's physical health

Being single
being gay
being angry
working a stressful job
not meditating
Being divorced
Being poor

We don't try to force everyone to get married or have an optimistic outlook the same way we try to force everyone to be thin. I think being poor will cut 3-10x more time out of your life expectancy than being fat, Obesity cuts something like 9-24 months, poverty cuts 10 years.

Secondly, the ties between obesity and health are not clearcut. The vast majority of deaths attributed to obesity are due to CVD (60-70%), but CVD has been declining during the obesity epidemic. So where are these dying people, why have CVD rates gone down as obesity goes up? That is like saying we have a cancer epidemic while rates are going down.

Furthermore, there are numerous ways to fight these diseases that have nothing to do with obesity. You can fight CVD via various interventions, most having nothing to do with bodyweight.

 

[Lao Tzu]

While the image of obesity being negative is certainly tied to our obsession with appearance, I think that has changed at least partly to health. It isn't healthy and people not being healthy costs all of us. Ties nicely into our UHC debate my friend

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/psy...le.jhtml?articleID=191901413&cid=BreakingNews

LOS ANGELES, Aug. 10 -- Unmarried life may impinge on life expectancy, according to researchers here.

Those who have never married have a 58% higher risk of an earlier death, compared with a married reference group, found Robert Kaplan, Ph.D., of the University of California at Los Angeles and Richard Kronick, Ph.D., of UC San Diego.

Strikingly, the 58% never-married penalty was also higher than the 27% combined death rates for those who were separated or divorced and the 39% rate for widowed persons. they reported in the August issue of the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.



Where do we draw the line? Should we mandate that everyone have friends, get married, meditate, etc. since these are all tied into health? if we are going to mandate that they lose weight because of health why not those things? Why can't I badger athiests to join a religion, or single people to get married?

 

[wootoom]

politca on a fuckin fitness site is fuckin pointless

 

[bluepeter]

nope. Numerous things are unhealthy for a person's physical health

Being single
being gay
being angry
working a stressful job
not meditating
Being divorced
Being poor

We don't try to force everyone to get married or have an optimistic outlook the same way we try to force everyone to be thin. I think being poor will cut 3-10x more time out of your life expectancy than being fat, Obesity cuts something like 9-24 months, poverty cuts 10 years.

Secondly, the ties between obesity and health are not clearcut. The vast majority of deaths attributed to obesity are due to CVD (60-70%), but CVD has been declining during the obesity epidemic. So where are these dying people, why have CVD rates gone down as obesity goes up? That is like saying we have a cancer epidemic while rates are going down.

Furthermore, there are numerous ways to fight these diseases that have nothing to do with obesity. You can fight CVD via various interventions, most having nothing to do with bodyweight.

Increased blood pressure? Increased risk of heart disease?

 

[Lao Tzu]

we are still animals, only a few steps out of the jungle, technology maybe evolving exponentialy, but our basic instincts are evolving much slower. there are certain characteristics physically that drive us to reproduce, and obesity, except in hammys case, is usually not one that attracts opposite sexs to each other.

What drives us is V shaped torsos in men and hourglass figures in women. The level of bodyfat is not of paramount importance as long as these figures are obtained.

Also, obesity has been considered desirable in much of human history due to cultural reasons. Women we'd consider fat were considered quite attracted in the 19th century.

 

[biteme]

Well you are right, there are many factors that attribute to good health or poor health. But I'm not buying into this research. Most poor people are overweight or abuse substances I believe and since they don't have access to good medical care, these habits contribute to shortening their life span. I don't try to force overweight people to be active and fit. I could give a rat's ass. It's their body and choice and I don't think less of them solely because they are overweight.

 

[bluepeter]

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/psy...le.jhtml?articleID=191901413&cid=BreakingNews

LOS ANGELES, Aug. 10 -- Unmarried life may impinge on life expectancy, according to researchers here.

Those who have never married have a 58% higher risk of an earlier death, compared with a married reference group, found Robert Kaplan, Ph.D., of the University of California at Los Angeles and Richard Kronick, Ph.D., of UC San Diego.

Strikingly, the 58% never-married penalty was also higher than the 27% combined death rates for those who were separated or divorced and the 39% rate for widowed persons. they reported in the August issue of the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.



Where do we draw the line? Should we mandate that everyone have friends, get married, meditate, etc. since these are all tied into health? if we are going to mandate that they lose weight because of health why not those things? Why can't I badger athiests to join a religion, or single people to get married?

Who's stopping you? The key phrase is mandate. Nobody is mandating anything here. Read my first post again. I said the obsession with obesity is two-pronged. It comes from our obsession with physical attractiveness AND health. I believe that is why it gets more attention than say, marriage. Unless we're talking about our mothers, then marriage may be tops in terms of priority

By the way, who's the crackpot that invented statistics saying those who get married have increased life expectancy? The stress of marriage HAS to cut at least a decade off your life..........lol

 

[anthrax]

Different eras different values

In the early 20th century fat women were considered more attractive

No longer now
There is no debate
In terms of esthetics and health, fat is wrong. Period

 

[needtogetaas]

we are still animals, only a few steps out of the jungle, technology maybe evolving exponentialy, but our basic instincts are evolving much slower. there are certain characteristics physically that drive us to reproduce, and obesity, except in hammys case, is usually not one that attracts opposite sexs to each other.

why do realy skinny guys love the fat chicks.

 

[Smurfy]

To say that the ties between obesity and health are not clearcut is absurd.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/ob_gdlns.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/consequences.htm

 

[biteme]

To say that the ties between obesity and health are not clearcut is absurd.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/ob_gdlns.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/consequences.htm

Smoking is even worse. Smoking disgusts me. Fat people don't bother me, but having to breath cigarette smoke does. Glad you quit.

 

[biteme]

Do you feel superior to fat people? I don't. I just feel superior to nearly all people.

 

[musclemom]

There's a big difference between being overweight by 10 to 20 pounds versus being obese, morbidly obese, or even the new, 21st century version, SUPER obese (you know, the ones they need new special ambulances for).

I'll give you the world's simplest argument against obesity: PCOS. Women who are really obese, in addition to all their other "correctable" health problems can't get pregnant -- the only cure for PCOS is LOSING WEIGHT. Hormone manipulation doesn't do it.

On the rare occasion when they do catch pregnant, they miscarry at a much higher rate, the pregnancies are extremely high risk and should they actually make it to full term the children are usually born underweight, with a whole host of health problems.

Argument against obesity: it is not conducive to perpetuation of the species.

 

[Lao Tzu]

To say that the ties between obesity and health are not clearcut is absurd.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/ob_gdlns.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/consequences.htm

To ignore the fact that CVD has gone down while obesity has gone up is absurd.

Point is that there are many factors that go into health, and bodyweight is only one. We should promote all healthy behavior within reason instead of using health as an excuse to force an aesthetic standard that was arbitrarily determined.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Obesity was probably a bad word for this. What I meant was something like fatophobia, our cultural disgust and fear of bodyfat, which drives us to use health as an excuse to enforce aesthetics. I get the impression people feel this is about 400 pound people. Being 400 pounds is unhealthy, but most people don't weigh nearly that much. FTR, most of the people talking about health are young and they are describing diseases that woudln't hit them for 30 years or more. The real question is, aside from engaging in activity that promotes aesthetics, what other proactive behavior do you all engage in to prevent CVD, cancer or diabetes? Do all of you who talk about obesity being unhealthy visit your doctor regularly, get screened for diseases, engage in other health promotion activity, etc?

And again, why focus on obesity and its role in health but not something else?

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060403_church_good.html

Should religious people use that as motivation to constantly preach the love of Jesus?

 

[Lao Tzu]

Reason why bad:

Nobody questions the 'fat = bad' social rule anymore. Society needs conformity to function, but there aren't anymore cynics or people asking questions. People just assume at face value that fat is bad and the level of bad is directly tied into the level of fat. The more fat you are, the more bad you are and the more bad your situation is.

Nobody is asking questions anymore about why we think and feel the way we do, which is a bad idea in a democratic society. the only questions we ask are about how we can follow the rules, not whether the rules deserve to be followed.

 

[musclemom]

Okay, my other point against obesity as being indicative of good health:

I have a VERY long history working/living/caring for/rescuing domestic animals (primarily cats, ferrets, rodents, but I've lived/worked around most domesticated animals). EVERY SINGLE TIME I've EVER encountered an overweight animal, more than lack of exercise, it's been eating a CRAPPY diet (cheap food). Get the owner to break loose with a couple more bucks on decent food, nine times out of ten, the animal starts to slim right down (you do have the rare one that overeats because it has an oral fixation -- I actually have a cat like that right now she'd probably be veritable footstool if she were neutered. But those are the exceptions versus the rule).

It's been my observation that most of the time, obesity indicates poor nutrition: Overeating of calories because the food being consumed is of insufficient nutritional content. It's possible to be quite fat and malnourished. Face it, there ain't a whole heck of a lot of nutrition in refined sugar, high carb, high fat foods. It's pretty tough to get really overweight on brown rice, broccoli, chicken and fruit, but it's not very hard to meet your nutritional requirements on that diet.

 

[musclemom]

Reason why bad:

Nobody questions the 'fat = bad' social rule anymore. Society needs conformity to function, but there aren't anymore cynics or people asking questions. People just assume at face value that fat is bad and the level of bad is directly tied into the level of fat. The more fat you are, the more bad you are and the more bad your situation is.

Nobody is asking questions anymore about why we think and feel the way we do, which is a bad idea in a democratic society. the only questions we ask are about how we can follow the rules, not whether the rules deserve to be followed.

Honey, nobody questions Smoking = Bad, not even smokers. 75 years ago that was not the case.

 

[HiDnGoD]

There's a big difference between being overweight by 10 to 20 pounds versus being obese, morbidly obese, or even the new, 21st century version, SUPER obese (you know, the ones they need new special ambulances for).

I'll give you the world's simplest argument against obesity: PCOS. Women who are really obese, in addition to all their other "correctable" health problems can't get pregnant -- the only cure for PCOS is LOSING WEIGHT. Hormone manipulation doesn't do it.

On the rare occasion when they do catch pregnant, they miscarry at a much higher rate, the pregnancies are extremely high risk and should they actually make it to full term the children are usually born underweight, with a whole host of health problems.

Argument against obesity: it is not conducive to perpetuation of the species.

Good answer.
From a purely selfish POV, Obesity is bad because the financial costs associated with it affect everybody.

 

[UA_Iron]

obese people make me want to vomit.

they are already dead to me.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Honey, nobody questions Smoking = Bad, not even smokers. 75 years ago that was not the case.

What about the recent CDC study showing risk from obesity for the vast majority of overweight people?

I'm not saying obesity is healthy. I am saying that

-Many things are unhealthy, but we ignore most of them
-There are many ways to promote health that have nothing to do with losing weight

For example, what if an obese person eats somewhat better, exercises, gets screened regularly, lowers his stress, has a good social network, etc. That obese person is going to be in much, much better health than the non-obese person who doesn't. However, guaging by the reactions in this thread it is obvious that most people have no real interest in any of that activity because that activity doesn't promote an aesthetic standard that fat=bad. How many of the people here who condemn obesity due to health reasons also meditate due to health reasons, or try to maintain a low stress lifestyle, or try to have a good social network, or see their doctor as much as they are supposed to, or take pro-active nutritional supplementation, or maintain an optimistic outlook? My point is that health is just an excuse, not a reason, for the war on obesity. The real reason is a cultural disgust and fear of bodyfat. If people gave a damn about health they'd act healthy. They do not, they try to get thin and anything that doesn't lead to getting thin but that is healthy is ignored. It is pretty easy to see what people's true motivations are if you are actually open to seeing them.

According to some research I've seen an obese person who is physically fit is in better condition than a non obese person who is sedentary. Yet the level of activity they engage in is not enough to have massive differences in bodyweight.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Who's stopping you? The key phrase is mandate. Nobody is mandating anything here. Read my first post again. I said the obsession with obesity is two-pronged. It comes from our obsession with physical attractiveness AND health. I believe that is why it gets more attention than say, marriage. Unless we're talking about our mothers, then marriage may be tops in terms of priority

By the way, who's the crackpot that invented statistics saying those who get married have increased life expectancy? The stress of marriage HAS to cut at least a decade off your life..........lol

Mandate my foot to your ass

 

[musclemom]

What about the recent CDC study showing risk from obesity for the vast majority of overweight people?

I'm not saying obesity is healthy. I am saying that

-Many things are unhealthy, but we ignore most of them
-There are many ways to promote health that have nothing to do with losing weight

For example, what if an obese person eats somewhat better, exercises, gets screened regularly, lowers his stress, has a good social network, etc. That obese person is going to be in much, much better health than the non-obese person who doesn't. However, guaging by the reactions in this thread it is obvious that most people have no real interest in any of that activity because that activity doesn't promote an aesthetic standard that fat=bad. How many of the people here who condemn obesity due to health reasons also meditate due to health reasons, or try to maintain a low stress lifestyle, or try to have a good social network, or see their doctor as much as they are supposed to, or take pro-active nutritional supplementation, or maintain an optimistic outlook? My point is that health is just an excuse, not a reason, for the war on obesity. The real reason is a cultural disgust and fear of bodyfat. If people gave a damn about health they'd act healthy. They do not, they try to get thin and anything that doesn't lead to getting thin but that is healthy is ignored. It is pretty easy to see what people's true motivations are if you are actually open to seeing them.

According to some research I've seen an obese person who is physically fit is in better condition than a non obese person who is sedentary. Yet the level of activity they engage in is not enough to have massive differences in bodyweight.

Well, dear, I have to tell you that a) you're on a fitness board, so tolerance for fat is going to be lower than the cultural norm; b) depending on your age, you generally get less body conscious and a little more accepting of your own and other people's body's as you enter the middle years, most people start becoming more accepting of curves and softness -- frankly, maturity means basing you relationships on something a little more substantial than physical appearances; c) I don't know ANYBODY that doesn't cringe mentally when confronted with someone who is morbidly obese. We all think the same thing, if even for just a moment, " how did that happen?"

I have no problem with extra padding, I'm carrying it, my husband carries it, plenty of the people on this board are carrying it at some point or another. I have a problem when it starts interfering with quality of life or creating health problems. I don't care if there IS medication that can correct the health problems, why add those chemicals to your body when you can just peel off some body fat and eliminate the health problems?

I'm about 20+/- pounds over where I'm comfortable, aesthetically. I don't care for the extra weight, I don't like the way I carry it and one of the biggest pains in the asses is that it becomes tough to buy clothes. But my heart rate averages 69, my blood pressure is 118/75, I'm strong, I have cardiovascular/muscular endurance. So yes, it's certainly possible to be overweight and be in pretty good shape.

 

[Smurfy]

To ignore the fact that CVD has gone down while obesity has gone up is absurd.

Point is that there are many factors that go into health, and bodyweight is only one. We should promote all healthy behavior within reason instead of using health as an excuse to force an aesthetic standard that was arbitrarily determined.

well duh. since when does a statement of obesity in correlation to health risks have anything at all to do with aesthetics?

 

[gonelifting]

My point is that health is just an excuse, not a reason, for the war on obesity. The real reason is a cultural disgust and fear of bodyfat.

AHAA! I already told you that in my first reply. It took you a while to change your mind.




Also, I don't care what the studies say. THE FOODS BEING MANUFACTURED TODAY ARE SO BAD that within 50 years so many people will be obese that we'll need personal busses for everyone. Do you know how much they cost?!? Neither do I.


I'm a fitness minded person. I really try and buy the right foods to eat and STILL have a hard time deciphering the junk from the good stuff at the supermarket. 9 out of 10 things I pick up off the shelf and read the indgredients, is SHIT, POISON to our bodies. How the hell is the normal, uneducated, not as handsome as me, unmotivated, ignorant, person going to deal with that bombardment of BS? They're not, they will be obese and their kids will be obese.

50 years.


Did I mention handsome?

 

[mrplunkey]

To ignore the fact that CVD has gone down while obesity has gone up is absurd.

And to ignore the fact that medical technology around CVD has gone up astronomically is equally absurd. We can detect it sooner and more accurately as well as treat it much better than ever before.

We pour trillions of dollars into diseases that are all co-morbidities of obesity such as diabetes, CVD, CHF, joint replacement, etc. etc. Obesity costs society an incredible amount of money and steals healthcare dollars from more deserving candidates.

Point is that there are many factors that go into health, and bodyweight is only one. We should promote all healthy behavior within reason instead of using health as an excuse to force an aesthetic standard that was arbitrarily determined.

And we have gone after other factors...

1) We run anti-smoking campaigns... you can't legally smoke in most indoor places

2) We drive seat belt and car-seat use... you can't legally drive without being properly restrained.

3) We make dangerous drugs illegal... you can't legally setup a meth lab even for your own exclusive use.

4) We set standards for food preparation and service... you can't legally run a nasty restaurant and serve people food

5) We set standards for drug manufacture... you can't just start cranking-out your own pharmaceuticals

6) We try to protect people from drinking and driving... Most states have very tough DUI laws for people over 0.08% BAC

etc. etc. etc....

So obviously we don't hesitate to put laws into place that promote health. If anything, we should have specific laws against obesity. I can just see the headlines now: "Police Raid the Town & Country Buffet -- 18 Taken into Custody".

 

[mrplunkey]

I'm not saying obesity is healthy. I am saying that

-Many things are unhealthy, but we ignore most of them
-There are many ways to promote health that have nothing to do with losing weight

No, we don't ignore most of them. The vast majority of the big items are legislated into law (i.e. seat belt use, laws against illicit drugs, stopping smoking in public places).

The more subtle ones you are citing are either difficult to measure or difficult to find causal relationships. Like marriage... I'd argue that married people are more "settled down" and more adverse to risk. It isn't marriage that makes them live longer, it's the fact that lifestyle traits associated with longer life are also traits you'd find in someone willing to get and stay married.

And how do you even measure a "good social network"? That's a ridiculous criteria anyway. Who's to say my 5 close friends aren't "better" friends than someone else's 9 close friends?

Seat belt use is easy -- the buckle is clicked or it isn't. Smoking is easy -- how many packs a day. Obesity is equally easy to measure, but we don't do enough about it. There should be better laws and regulations against obesity. I'd like to see tax incentives for people who maintain proper body weight, surcharges on junk foods, and even restrictions on obese people. Hell, let's put your obese status on your drivers license and make it illegal to serve you non portion-controlled meals in all public places (hence no "all you can eat" or buffet services for obese people).

 

[pintoca]

You muthafukkas wont reply to my threads. My methuselah thread, my iraq torture thread, my obesity myth thread. I blame everyone but myself.

So lets debate obesity. I will take the pro obesity argument, and everyone else can have the anti-obesity argument.

Pro obesity:

We are a culture that tries to value humans for their internal worth, not their appearance. Our war on obesity and bodyfat is a rollback of progress on issues of tolerance for others because their physical appearance is different than we ourselves would like to look or would like others to look. We should have far more tolerance for physical diversity than we do if we are to stake a claim to being a devleoped, tolerant nation.

Someone take the anti side, and we'll rap.

I'm eating a snickers bar while reading this thread. Does that count?

 

[HiDnGoD]

What about the recent CDC study showing risk from obesity for the vast majority of overweight people?

I'm not saying obesity is healthy. I am saying that

-Many things are unhealthy, but we ignore most of them
-There are many ways to promote health that have nothing to do with losing weight

For example, what if an obese person eats somewhat better, exercises, gets screened regularly, lowers his stress, has a good social network, etc. That obese person is going to be in much, much better health than the non-obese person who doesn't. However, guaging by the reactions in this thread it is obvious that most people have no real interest in any of that activity because that activity doesn't promote an aesthetic standard that fat=bad. How many of the people here who condemn obesity due to health reasons also meditate due to health reasons, or try to maintain a low stress lifestyle, or try to have a good social network, or see their doctor as much as they are supposed to, or take pro-active nutritional supplementation, or maintain an optimistic outlook? My point is that health is just an excuse, not a reason, for the war on obesity. The real reason is a cultural disgust and fear of bodyfat. If people gave a damn about health they'd act healthy. They do not, they try to get thin and anything that doesn't lead to getting thin but that is healthy is ignored. It is pretty easy to see what people's true motivations are if you are actually open to seeing them.

According to some research I've seen an obese person who is physically fit is in better condition than a non obese person who is sedentary. Yet the level of activity they engage in is not enough to have massive differences in bodyweight.

I'm guessing you've never been obese. If you had, & you were honest, you would know there's no way obese is better than not. I'm slightly obese. I'd say 40% lifestyle & 60% genetics. I'm not making excuses, that's just the way it is. I'm also the go to guy when it comes to lifting & eating, for the people at work. I am the healthiest fat guy I know. Yet I have a whole host of problems that would be minimized, or disappear if I wasn't obese. Diabetes & arthritis being 2 of them. The more extra weight that is added to person, their health care risks go up, the higher the medical costs, which is largely borne by society.
The current drive may be fueled by aesthetics, but you can't say it's a bad thing.

 

[mrplunkey]

I'm guessing you've never been obese. If you had, & you were honest, you would know there's no way obese is better than not. I'm slightly obese. I'd say 40% lifestyle & 60% genetics. I'm not making excuses, that's just the way it is. I'm also the go to guy when it comes to lifting & eating, for the people at work. I am the healthiest fat guy I know. Yet I have a whole host of problems that would be minimized, or disappear if I wasn't obese. Diabetes & arthritis being 2 of them. The more extra weight that is added to person, their health care risks go up, the higher the medical costs, which is largely borne by society.
The current drive may be fueled by aesthetics, but you can't say it's a bad thing.

I think Lau Tzu is heavy or obese (I think I remember reading him say that somewhere).

I think about it every time I see one of his UHC threads.

 

[Cutiebaby]

obesitity is terrible. Parents who give in to it and allow it should be beaten.
To sit there and let your kids eat shit foods, never know about fitness and health, and then to watch them get big as a car. that is bullshit. I for one think as toddlers they should be allowed a lot of snacky things, but damn there is an age to put an end to it! Before it gets to late. Many cases I have seen where the child weighs more than the parent, it is gross. And not needed. IMO that would be classified as neglect in its own way!

 

[mrplunkey]

obesitity is terrible. Parents who give in to it and allow it should be beaten.
To sit there and let your kids eat shit foods, never know about fitness and health, and then to watch them get big as a car. that is bullshit. I for one think as toddlers they should be allowed a lot of snacky things, but damn there is an age to put an end to it! Before it gets to late. Many cases I have seen where the child weighs more than the parent, it is gross. And not needed. IMO that would be classified as neglect in its own way!

I agree... I'd add that to my list of new obesity laws.

Having an obese child should be grounds for evaluation by DYFS. In some cases it would be better to remove the child from the home.

 

[Cutiebaby]

I agree... I'd add that to my list of new obesity laws.

Having an obese child should be grounds for evaluation by DYFS. In some cases it would be better to remove the child from the home.

Really tho, I am being serious. I am not saying have the children removed from the home, but have them put into some type of program.Seeings how the parents dont care to do it.....IMHO it is like neglect. The child will get made run of like crazy in school, and also later in life. The child will be more apt to have health issues all through out life. I mean the reasons are limitless here....I think that all heavy kids should be forced into a weight loss/ information therapy thingy.
But hey whatever, some parents like em plumpy. I on the other hand am I different story I guess.
Shit imagine chilling out in your rocking chair at 40 and getting a call that your 20 year old has just had a heart attack, then the doc says it is due to weight issues.It was the parents responsibility to teach that child good health!

 

[Smurfy]

obesitity is terrible. Parents who give in to it and allow it should be beaten.
To sit there and let your kids eat shit foods, never know about fitness and health, and then to watch them get big as a car. that is bullshit. I for one think as toddlers they should be allowed a lot of snacky things, but damn there is an age to put an end to it! Before it gets to late. Many cases I have seen where the child weighs more than the parent, it is gross. And not needed. IMO that would be classified as neglect in its own way!

Do you and Needto smoke inside your home?

 

[marvelous54]

I don't care if someone's fat. Most people are fat. I'm not physically attracted to obese women, but I don't think any less of fat people. They are just not motivated. Physicaly appearance is not that important to them. The real issue is health. It's not healthy to be obese, so that's the reason people shouldn't be obese.

I disagree. I think everyone "cares" what they look like. I just don't think everyone is motivated to do something about the way they look. If they could buy a pill that would suddenly change their physique it would sell like hotcakes. There are new techniques and surgeries surfacing all of the time that has this very "target market" in mind. Yes, target market. These people aren't patients. This has nothing to do with health... at least not from the health profession or government’s stand point. It is capitalism at it's finest. Our society isn't even willing to cook for their selves. The fast food market is what it is for this very reason. On the rare occasion we do cook it's usually zapped in the microwave. No way we're going to wait that long for something to be prepared in the oven, much less actually make an effort to cook it (it's too much like work). My point is that we (U.S. society) are fat because we are lazy and the fatter we get the lazier we get and the more of both we get the more we pad the pockets of Washington, so don’t expect any sudden changes in the way those within our society look. A fat society is far to profitable to make any changes.

On another note obese people live in a state of fear and depression anyway. Combine that with their favorite pastime being watching TV or surfing the net. Now you have a society that is scared and depressed in front of more information than they know what to do with... and the message is FEAR; and for they most part they buy into hook, line and sinker. Most elections are won by using fear.

Disclaimers:
1. I am not bashing capitalism. I believe strongly in the capitalist system. My comments were just to point out the motives of such procedures.

2. I know some of you know obese people who are happy. Don't lie to yourself! They may be happy in the presence of others but behind closed doors they have serious issues they're dealing with.

3. When I speak of politicians winning elections through the use of fear I am not referring to any specific politicians or parties. Both major parties predominantly use fear tactics.

Have a good day!

 

[musclemom]

I think Lau Tzu is heavy or obese (I think I remember reading him say that somewhere).

I think about it every time I see one of his UHC threads.

I've had a suspicion that he wasn't a healthy kid. He has a lot of confidence in conventional medicine/modern technology and takes umbrage with natural selection/the concept of survival of the fittest.

 

[HiDnGoD]

obesitity is terrible. Parents who give in to it and allow it should be beaten.
To sit there and let your kids eat shit foods, never know about fitness and health, and then to watch them get big as a car. that is bullshit. I for one think as toddlers they should be allowed a lot of snacky things, but damn there is an age to put an end to it! Before it gets to late. Many cases I have seen where the child weighs more than the parent, it is gross. And not needed. IMO that would be classified as neglect in its own way!

The knowledge does begin in the home, but I think it should begin as soon as kids are old enough to eat. Healthy stuff only. Makeing wise selections. Allowing the occasional casketfest, but knowing it's effect. & Phys Ed. You want healthy kids, give em education at home & at school. Athletics at home & more at school.
Knowledge about genetics. They are the parameters your body runs by.If you have parents grandparents who are diabetic on either side of the family, you are preprogrammed for obesity & diabetes.
Money: Good healthy food costs money
Convenience: Conveniently packaged food is usually unhealthy. Gotta get the manufacturers to improve on that.
Personal knowledge

 

[BOWTECH]

Fat people are disgusting. Also parents that allow children to become obese need to understand that is actually a form of child abuse. I heard on the news that by 2005 1 out of 5 children will be obese. That is very sad. Take the fork out of your mouth people.

 

[mkazzbmf]

The fat problem in America is caused by people eating like shit, being lazy bastards, and not caring about it. Fuck them......Once again...No self respect.


Kaz

 

[Lao Tzu]

I think Lau Tzu is heavy or obese (I think I remember reading him say that somewhere).

I think about it every time I see one of his UHC threads.

I'm insulted that you think I'm unhealthy. I know much about healthcare, and I take a variety of supplements, exercise regularly, and eat a reasonably healthy diet. I also constantly improve my mind to make myself happier, more peaceful and more content. Furthermore, I have health insurance and am getting a quality education, so healthcare will never be a problem for me personally.

Why isn't anyone listening to me? This is my argument, and you guys are proving it everytime you post. Rather than discussing it, you guys are just proving it.


1. We live in a society disgusted and terrified of bodyfat, and nobody is asking 'is this a good idea', they are just assuming it is a good idea to be terrified of bodyfat.
2. As a result of this, we pretend we care about health because pretending we care about health is a convenient excuse to lower our bodyfat levels
3. If people truly cared about health, they would engage in healthy behaviors. They do not. If they truly cared they would have this same level of passion for everything that makes a person unhealthy like having high stress, having no friends, not flossing, not visiting a doctor regularly. They do not. People only truly get passionate about health when it can be used as an excuse to lose weight or coerce others into losing weight.
4. As a result, it is obvious to anyone willing to actually admit it that the true motivation is a terror and disgust of bodyfat, not health.
5. The purpose of the debate is 'is our rampant disgust for bodyfat a good idea'

 

[BOWTECH]

The fat problem in America is caused by people eating like shit, being lazy bastards, and not caring about it. Fuck them......Once again...No self respect.


Kaz

Agree 100%

 

[Lao Tzu]

I've had a suspicion that he wasn't a healthy kid. He has a lot of confidence in conventional medicine/modern technology and takes umbrage with natural selection/the concept of survival of the fittest.

LOL. Think of that next time you get your kids vaccinated. Survival of the fittest is a nice way of saying purge the weak and promote the strong with a level of cruelty that would make the Nazis both proud and uncomfortable. Natural selection invented evil. The concept of evil didn't exist until natural selection invented it. If you want to follow that system be my guest, but the concept of evil, horror, pain, terror and misery don't exist anywhere else in the universe except in the nervous systems of higher mammals on earth.

I am healthy, and I find it insulting that you guys assume I am not. As I keep saying, endless things are unhealthy that have nothing to do with bodyweight that none of you give a damn about. However because everyone here is terrified and disgusted by bodyfat people pretend to care about health when it can be used as an excuse to lose weight or make others lose weight.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Life expectancy lost due to obesity: 2-5 years (the author, when pressed, admitted it was closer to 9 months in scientific american), but lets assume it is 2-5 years.


Keep in mind that many things will lower your life expectancy

Being lonely
being divorced
being stressed
not flossing (this helps prevent CVD and dementia)
Not being religious
Being gay
Being a pessimist
Being poor

Among others. WHy isn't there a level of passion on these issues? Why aren't you guys at war with loneliness, poverty or people being stressed the same way you are at war with obesity? Both are bad for health and life expectancy.



FTR I draw a distinction between obesity and health eating/exercise. A person who eats healthy and exercise will be thinner than otherwise, but there is no guarantee that they will be truly thin. If you eat like shit and never exercise you may weigh 330, but if you eat health and exercise you may be 240. Still obese/fat. And there are tons of thin people who eat shitty diets who are never going to be fat.

So I agree everyone should be encouraged to eat healthy and exercise (virtually every physical and mental disease improves with better lifestyle), but I don't think that obesity and health lifestyle are the same thing. There is a correlation, but they aren't identical.

 

[mrplunkey]

Really tho, I am being serious. I am not saying have the children removed from the home, but have them put into some type of program.Seeings how the parents dont care to do it.....IMHO it is like neglect. The child will get made run of like crazy in school, and also later in life. The child will be more apt to have health issues all through out life. I mean the reasons are limitless here....I think that all heavy kids should be forced into a weight loss/ information therapy thingy.
But hey whatever, some parents like em plumpy. I on the other hand am I different story I guess.
Shit imagine chilling out in your rocking chair at 40 and getting a call that your 20 year old has just had a heart attack, then the doc says it is due to weight issues.It was the parents responsibility to teach that child good health!

I wasn't being funny in my post

If a kid is morbidly obese under a parent's care, I'd be fine with them losing custody of the child.

 

[mrplunkey]

I'm insulted that you think I'm unhealthy.

I'm insulted you didn't read my post. I said I thought you were heavy or obese. I read my original post twice, and I'm pretty sure I didn't see the word "unhealthy" in it

 

[mrplunkey]

Life expectancy lost due to obesity: 2-5 years (the author, when pressed, admitted it was closer to 9 months in scientific american), but lets assume it is 2-5 years.


Keep in mind that many things will lower your life expectancy

Being lonely
being divorced
being stressed
not flossing (this helps prevent CVD and dementia)
Not being religious
Being gay
Being a pessimist
Being poor

Among others. WHy isn't there a level of passion on these issues? Why aren't you guys at war with loneliness, poverty or people being stressed the same way you are at war with obesity? Both are bad for health and life expectancy.

You are mixing causal and non-causal factors.

Being obese = higher risk of diabetes = lower life expectancy and lower quality of life.

That is a causal relationship.

Being gay, or not being religious, or being divorced does not directly lead to diminished health -- no one can demonstrate the causal link. Now being one of those may lead to lifestyles that are higher-risk, but its the underlying lifestyle driving it.

 

[mrplunkey]

There is a correlation, but they aren't identical.

They aren't identical, but its fair to say there is a VERY strong correlation.

 

[Arabian]

I wonder if it is genetic or do people just let themselves go

 

[mrplunkey]

I wonder if it is genetic or do people just let themselves go

Its some of both.

 

[HiDnGoD]

I wonder if it is genetic or do people just let themselves go

It is both. My family has obesity, diabetes & CVD on both sides. But I could have staved off the diabetes much later if I had lead a healthy lifestyle when I was younger. I'm living that lifestyle now & the diabetes is reversing, but it will never be gone. I have none of the other associated symptoms of CVD.
So, I would speculate, we could reverse this in one or 2 generations. If everyone were to start living healthy lifestyles, their children will benefit & have a good example to emulate. Their children will be even healthier.
Probably better adjusted mentally too. The mental issues experienced by many obese are not healthy or conducive to good relationships, in the long run.

 

[javaguru]

I'm obese, level II according to the BMI, and I'm happy with the way I look and by every objective standard I'm very healthy!

 

[galaxy]

Considering this is "Elitefitness" im gonna guess obesity takes a major hit in this discussion.

For the record....I am a fattist.

 

[radarstoy]

obesitity is terrible. Parents who give in to it and allow it should be beaten.
To sit there and let your kids eat shit foods, never know about fitness and health, and then to watch them get big as a car. that is bullshit. I for one think as toddlers they should be allowed a lot of snacky things, but damn there is an age to put an end to it! Before it gets to late. Many cases I have seen where the child weighs more than the parent, it is gross. And not needed. IMO that would be classified as neglect in its own way!

I disagree. Toddlers do not know the difference between healthy and non healthy snacks. By allowing them the high calorie sugary snacks or drinks you are setting them up for future failure in better choices. Let alone what all the crap does to their teeth. One of the biggest problems I see with children is the parent who won't say no when little susie is pitching a fit and they give them whatever just to shut them up.

 

[javaguru]

I disagree. Toddlers do not know the difference between healthy and non healthy snacks. By allowing them the high calorie sugary snacks or drinks you are setting them up for future failure in better choices. Let alone what all the crap does to their teeth. One of the biggest problems I see with children is the parent who won't say no when little susie is pitching a fit and they give them whatever just to shut them up.

I'm obese, level II according to the BMI, and I'm happy with the way I look and by every objective standard I'm very healthy!

 

[HiDnGoD]

I disagree. Toddlers do not know the difference between healthy and non healthy snacks. By allowing them the high calorie sugary snacks or drinks you are setting them up for future failure in better choices. Let alone what all the crap does to their teeth. One of the biggest problems I see with children is the parent who won't say no when little susie is pitching a fit and they give them whatever just to shut them up.

Especially in the grocery store line ups. They're afraid people are gonna think they are horrible parents 'cause their little bastard is throwing a fit.

 

[Lao Tzu]

You are mixing causal and non-causal factors.

Being obese = higher risk of diabetes = lower life expectancy and lower quality of life.

That is a causal relationship.

Being gay, or not being religious, or being divorced does not directly lead to diminished health -- no one can demonstrate the causal link. Now being one of those may lead to lifestyles that are higher-risk, but its the underlying lifestyle driving it.

Not necessarily,a nd I fail to see the difference between what you are saying and what I"m saying. Being gay puts one at higher risk of STDs. Being religious gives people more social time and more meaning, and possibly lower stress levels.

http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=MEDICAL-04-05-06

 

[mrplunkey]

Not necessarily,a nd I fail to see the difference between what you are saying and what I"m saying. Being gay puts one at higher risk of STDs. Being religious gives people more social time and more meaning, and possibly lower stress levels.

http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=MEDICAL-04-05-06

You are correct. You are failing to see the difference.

Here is an example. Obesity ushers-in insulin resistance and diabetes. There is a direct, irrefutable, biological link. In this case "A" causes "B". Diabetes results in the degredation of tissues due to high blood sugar levels. This degredation leads to tissue death in the periphery and in the retinas. In this case, "B" causes "C".

Now let's try your gay example. Being gay doesn't cause STD's. A gay person may or may not engage in high-risk sexual behavior. Hell, a gay person may even abstain from sex all together at some point. I'm sure we could dig-up a study that says an "average" gay person may be more sexually active or may be at a higher risk for STD's, but it's the behaviors that put them at risk -- not being gay itself.

Now let's look at religion. Again, it isn't a causal link. Being a member of a specific church doesn't cure or prevent any disease. Presumably an "average" religious person may abuse alcohol and drugs less than their non-religous counterparts, but most of those behaviors are illegal anyway. Presumably an "average" religous person may not be as sexually promiscuous as their non-religious counterparts, but that's a behavior -- not the religion at work. Presumably an "average" religous person may experience lower stress levels than their non-religous counterparts, but the religion itself isn't "healing" them -- its the ability to offload stress and uncertainty on a "higher" power.

So yes, I'd lump obesity in with a lot of other causal health risks such as failure to use seat belts, illicit drug use, and alcohol abuse.

 

[ck2006]

I will admit before and even a little after I had children I had no clue as to what was healthy. I could demolish a box of hamburger helper to myself no problem, and the boxed foods were soo convienient. Unfortunatly, it took me gaining weight, going on fad diets with no results to consult a dietian/join a gym and get a personal trainer to help.

She was able to get my family on the right track. We do not buy any more junk food and only one kind of boxed food a month for convience. My kids run to the fridge now when they see strawberries. As far as snacky foods, I buy them once a month for a treat (moderation) No more hamburger helper, or kraft dinner.

But I do think educating the kids is not even enough (in one ear out the other) I believe that it should also be part of an educational program parents can take when they have children, kinda like pre-natal classes.