Less fat loss with more cycles???

[Tatyana]

I was reading Muscular Development mag on the way into work this morning and there was a little article about hypothyroidism and steroids.

A couple of things the article (well really a question answer thing) caught my eye

- that with more cycles it is more difficult to get lean (gee, I wonder if that is what happened to Jay Cutless?)

- it mentioned a study that deca affected the metabolism of T3 and T4 leading to lower levels or something like that (I may have to type the bit out of the mag)

- that the feedback of the test/gear to the hypothalamus/pituitary may also result in the suppression of the release of TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone)

Myself and a few others have noticed that competitive natural BBers are often FAR more shredded than assisted athletes, people have put it down to water retention.


Did anyone else read this bit in the mag (one with Lee Priest on the cover)?

Thoughts?

 

[drsketch]

I may have to pick that up and check it out. Thanks for sharing..

Thoughts - I am new to this game though I would say that most likely not all steroids affect the thyroid I would also think that once off cycle the thyroid would return to normal. It is a resilient gland

 

[access]

Interesting Tat..

 

[needtogetaas]

This could be a good thread.

 

[shogun7]

That's some good insight. Just needs to be expounded upon.

 

[mr.nitro]

could it be that the use of t3 during dieting is really the cause?

 

[LoneTree]

I was reading Muscular Development mag on the way into work this morning and there was a little article about hypothyroidism and steroids.

A couple of things the article (well really a question answer thing) caught my eye

- that with more cycles it is more difficult to get lean (gee, I wonder if that is what happened to Jay Cutless?)

- it mentioned a study that deca affected the metabolism of T3 and T4 leading to lower levels or something like that (I may have to type the bit out of the mag)

- that the feedback of the test/gear to the hypothalamus/pituitary may also result in the suppression of the release of TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone)

Myself and a few others have noticed that competitive natural BBers are often FAR more shredded than assisted athletes, people have put it down to water retention.


Did anyone else read this bit in the mag (one with Lee Priest on the cover)?

Thoughts?

GAINING fat while on AAS is not likely.
Anabolics are supposed to increase muscle and decrease fat percentage. Cattle are given anabolics for the same reason.
The effect may DECREASE with prolonged use, but it would not be REVERSED. That is not physiological.
There are many small, out-lying studies that show results that are not logical. The problem is usually with the study designs. Even large, good studies may have flukes: Helsinki Heart Study showed that people whose cholestrol was too low were more likely to die of violent death (eg suicides). People developed many theories about it. That finding was never confirmed in any subsequent study.

I have a feeling since a long time that the 'extra' growth people achieve with eating too much is fat, not lean muscle.
After 'bulking', they 'cut'. They have ketonuria when they diet drastically, that is accompanied by osmotic diuresis. Almost everyone knows that when you lose weight rapidly, you lose a lot of 'water'.
It is the loss of subcutaneous fluid that gives them that 'cut' look just before the competition (remember, fait is also subcutaneous).

I have read muscle magazines and I will not trust that information. You will find better information on this board.
I have a 375-page book by two renouned experts in the field ('Designing Resistance Training Programs', 3rd Ed, Fleck S. and Kraemer W., 2004). I trust information on this board more than the information in that book.

 

[lookinfit75]

I just bought the mag last night but I haven't read through all of it. The Wolf vs. Cutler comparison article was interesting as was the Dexter jackson Article, especially since the article pretty much says Dex would not be able to win because he is too small. The article even went on to say that in all likelyhood, Dex has never weight over the 220lbs mark.

Truth be known, I bought the mag because Lee was on the cover and he looks RIPPED to shreds so at least in his case, it looks like his steroid use hasn't had a negative effect on his ability to get absolutely ripped. Too bad he ripped his bicep though. I guess this is the year of ingjuries. Maybe everyone is trying to dry out too much and that is why tendons are snapping left and right.

Tat, RFLAO at Jay "Cutless"! In the imortal words of Rick James: " Cold Blooded!"

 

[Tatyana]

could it be that the use of t3 during dieting is really the cause?

Both clinical and subclinical hypothyroidism has been described in athletes self-administering anabolic steroids without use or abuse of thyroid hormones.

Clinical hypothryoidism presents as fatigue, depression, joint pain, muscle cramps, water retention and increasing bodyfat.

A bodybuilder who cycles anabolic steroids may find that he plateaus and finds it harder to lose body fat with each cycle.

This could be related to alterations in thyroid hormone physiology, among other reasons.

In medical school we were taught that thryoid hormone is the great potentiator. Without it, other hormones don't work to their potential.

An animal study has shown that IGF-1 administration can increase protein synthesis by greater than 40% in euthryoid (normal) thryoid) state.

However, administrationn of IGF-1 to a hypothyroid animal resulted in a lack of response.


Although I believe one should never abuse anabolic steroids, if you do, regular blood work should be performed. In the blood work, a thryoid function panel should be ordered.

There is a small body of research to back up this recommendation. An animal study looking at the effect of DECA on thyroid profiles showed a probable direct action of DECA on the thyroid gland and on liver and kidney metabolism of T3 and T4.

Reductions of serum total T3 and free T4 in DECA-treated animals were probably related to the change in the hepatic metabolism of T4.

Reductions in serum TSH may be related to the central inhibition of release by anabolic steroids.

Further research needs to be done on this topic.

Compensatory mechanisms, alterations of binding proteins, up and down regulation of enzymes and change in receptor affinities may all show different effects wtih different anabolic compounds, their combination and duration of use.

MD page 348 October 2008

 

[the_alcatraz]

lol @ Jay Cutless Tat, you hate that guy don't you?

 

[OneBreath]

i had read before to take a maintenance dose of T3 when running tren. The reasoning being suppression of TSH.

 

[drsketch]

i had read before to take a maintenance dose of T3 when running tren. The reasoning being suppression of TSH.

i dont believe it has ever been proven tren suppresses TSH, just a theory

 

[timtim]

i agree with the losing bodyfat becoming harder. ive done a bunch of cycles in my life. the first 4 or 5 years getting to 9% bf and alittle lower was pretty basic. since then its gotten much more difficult to the point where i am done cycling. my weight is where i want it and i get much leaner off cycle than on. my wife has been pointing this out to me for the last 3 years, saying i look better off. this year i really noticed when i started with a light 6 pack showing before my cycle and it completely disappeared once on.

 

[Tatyana]

GAINING fat while on AAS is not likely.
Anabolics are supposed to increase muscle and decrease fat percentage. Cattle are given anabolics for the same reason.
The effect may DECREASE with prolonged use, but it would not be REVERSED. That is not physiological.
There are many small, out-lying studies that show results that are not logical. The problem is usually with the study designs. Even large, good studies may have flukes: Helsinki Heart Study showed that people whose cholestrol was too low were more likely to die of violent death (eg suicides). People developed many theories about it. That finding was never confirmed in any subsequent study.

I have a feeling since a long time that the 'extra' growth people achieve with eating too much is fat, not lean muscle.
After 'bulking', they 'cut'. They have ketonuria when they diet drastically, that is accompanied by osmotic diuresis. Almost everyone knows that when you lose weight rapidly, you lose a lot of 'water'.
It is the loss of subcutaneous fluid that gives them that 'cut' look just before the competition (remember, fait is also subcutaneous).

I have read muscle magazines and I will not trust that information. You will find better information on this board.
I have a 375-page book by two renouned experts in the field ('Designing Resistance Training Programs', 3rd Ed, Fleck S. and Kraemer W., 2004). I trust information on this board more than the information in that book.

The Helsinki study is not a fluke, it is related to the effects of statin lowering cholesterol.

It has been known for ages if your cholesterol is too low you are likely to throw yourself off a bridge, and it is related to the brain being mostly composed of lipids.

I know what you mean about muscle mags, however, MD is slightly different as they review all the recent research, and often reference articles with citations.

I hadn't typed up the article when you posted, take a peek at it now and see what you think.

 

[Tatyana]

lol @ Jay Cutless Tat, you hate that guy don't you?

He used to be my fav