Leaning forward on squats

[coolcolj]

start doing hip and ankle mobility work too, it really helps. makes squatting way easier and smoother

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=495189
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-057-training
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-101-training

 

[Powerbuilder333]

I wear Adidas cross training / running shoe. I don't remember the style / model of it. It was on sale for $25 and that's why I bought it. It has a fair amount of cushioning, and yes, I think the shoe is a contributing factor. I am going to be looking for a pair of Chuck Taylor's as the consensus is those are pretty decent lifting shoes without resorting to a specialty shoe.

Anyone have a good source for Chuck's? Some of these online stores are charging $45+ for them .. seems really expensive for such "low-tech" shoes.

I got my chuck's new on eBay for $32 including shipping.

 

[JPC]

You are probably leaning forward because your posterior chain is weak - leaning forward avoids making the posterior chain do work and transfers it to the quads and therefor the knee pain.

I believe you are mistaken. The opposite is true. Leaning forward is caused by weak quads. Leaning forward puts the emphasis on the posterior chain. Thats exactly what a good morning is. People tend to lean forward through the sticking point of the squat when their quads are weaker than their hips,hams,low back, letting the posterior chain do most of the work. If your posterior chain was weaker, then leaning forward would place it in an even more disadvantaged possition and you would continue to lean and fall on your face.

 

[coolcolj]

I believe you are mistaken. The opposite is true. Leaning forward is caused by weak quads. Leaning forward puts the emphasis on the posterior chain. Thats exactly what a good morning is. People tend to lean forward through the sticking point of the squat when their quads are weaker than their hips,hams,low back, letting the posterior chain do most of the work. If your posterior chain was weaker, then leaning forward would place it in an even more disadvantaged possition and you would continue to lean and fall on your face.

I believe it's because the hamstrings are the weak link, and your body tips forward to make the back and glutes pick up the slack.
The hammies rotate hip, so it makes sense if they are lagging in the movement, you tip forward

since GM's strengthen the muscles that tip you upright, then it's logical that they would help you stay upright when squatting. It did for me

I GM my heavy squats a lot, and my hammies are definitely the weak link. Much smaller than my qauds and glutes as well.
Which is funny becuase I can RDL over 300lbs for reps, but I can't GM that!

 

[JPC]

I believe it's because the hamstrings are the weak link, and your body tips forward to make the back and glutes pick up the slack.
The hammies rotate hip, so it makes sense if they are lagging in the movement, you tip forward

since GM's strengthen the muscles that tip you upright, then it's logical that they would help you stay upright when squatting. It did for me

I GM my heavy squats a lot, and my hammies are definitely the weak link. Much smaller than my qauds and glutes as well.
Which is funny becuase I can RDL over 300lbs for reps, but I can't GM that!

The glutes and hams do the same thing to the hip joint, they both extend the femur. So the glutes can't take over for weak hamstrings, if one is involved, the other is involved.

If the hamstrings were the weak link, tipping over would make it even worse. You have to understand what is happening when someone leans over coming up in the squat. They are doing it to TRANSFER more of the weight to the posterior chain, or hip extensors, and LESSEN the work placed on the knee extensors. If something was your weak link, why would you make it work even harder by bending over. You are bending over to remove weight from your weak link, or the quads in this case. Like I said before, if bending over is the result of weak posterior chain, you would not stop bending until the bar crashed to the ground cause the further you bend over, the harder it is on the posterior chain. Think people, think.

 

[coolcolj]

ok when someone has a frontsquat lower than 80% of their backsquat it's been said they have weak hamstrings

what makes one fail a frontsquat? You tip forward, you can't stay upright, so bar falls off shoulders etc becuase you try and use your back

what makes a backsquat higher than the frontsquat? You can use your back more

 

[JPC]

Front Squating involves the quads more, since you are more upright and the center of gravity is over the hips and away from the knees. When you fail by tipping forward, its because your quads can't do the job and you try to use more hip/hams. This doesn't work in the front squat because you lose the bar. You backsquat more than you frontsquat because you lean over more and the center of gravity is further from the hips so the glutes/hams do more of the work and together they are stronger than the quads. Your back is only a stabilizer in both, but has to work harder in the back squat to maintain a neutral or flexed spine. Your errectors don't "lift" the weight, they just keep your spine stable so your hips and legs can lift the weight.

I think the confusion here is understanding why someone tips forward. I never fail a squat because of tipping forward. I tip forward to SAVE a squat. If I could not maintain my uprightness because of a weak posterior chain and started to tip forward, it would not stop until the bar crashed on the pins. If this is indeed what happens to someone when they fail a squat, then yes indeed their posterior chain is the weakness. I don't think there are many people that do this though. Most I would guess, tip forward to SAVE a squat and finish with an ugly half squat/goodmorning. Their quads could not do their part extending the knees so they lean over letting the knees extend with less resistance, and let the posterior chain, good morning it up.

 

[thedreamthief]

I finally made it back to the gym this morning. I picked up a new pair of Chuck's that I believe did help with form. I did some stretching, incorporating some hip flexor stretches and did some good mornings.

I was more observant of my form and found out two things that hopefully might be able to help pinpoint my area of weakness.

First, I noticed that I tip forward during the latter part of my descent, shifting the weight towards my knees, quads and balls of my feet (my heels tend to come off the ground). Since I am already tipped forward when I am about to start my ascent, it just exacerbates the issue, making me tip forward even more on my ascent.
This is basically only allowing me to go to parallel or just below parallel.

Secondly, I decided to drop a lot of weight and force good form, no matter how much it hurt my ego to squat only 135lbs . I noticed that with the lighter weight, I was able to hold the arch in my lower back more effectively, and I did not tip forward. It also allowed me to go a little deeper on my squat.

So, it seems the major culprit may be me not holding the arch in my back. I believe all of the other suggestions did help quite a bit as well.

So, until I get my Starting Strength book, does the following sound correct for starting a squat? Chest out, abs tight and somewhat "puffed out", upper back straight, lower back arched (pushing abdomen out).

From what I described, what does everyone think I need to work on to help my squats? Is it solely a form issue? Or is it lack of strength in a certain area that is causing my form issue, which can be addressed with another exercise?

As a start, I need to stick with the light weight and keep a very tight reign on my form when adding weight.

Thanks so far for everyone's input. It's been a tremendous help.

 

[stevius]

From what I described, what does everyone think I need to work on to help my squats? Is it solely a form issue? Or is it lack of strength in a certain area that is causing my form issue, which can be addressed with another exercise?

Personally my hips always fail first, going for reps. The quads take a lot more punishment and they're good at doing half reps. For me, it's a choice between working on supporting muscles for reps with lower weight or low reps with high weight to hit the thighs more.

Anyway, I wonder, what fails first for you. You said back, so maybe Gm's, deads and Glut Ham raises to bring up your squat ability?

Have fun!

 

[perp69]

I was going to say could be as simple as you not arching and breathing properly therefore shifting center of gravity. I like to think of it like bowing the chest out.

Perp